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New Holland TC33D Tractor Frame broke in Half

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Billy
Join Date: Oct 1999
Posts: 975 Southeast Oklahoma
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2004-04-15          83206


I have a 1999 TC33D New Holland Tractor. The frame broke into while I was moving some brush. Has anyone else had this problem?

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Chief
Join Date: Jul 2003
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2004-04-15          83210


Did the frame break or the clutch bell housing break? ....

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billy
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2004-04-15          83214


The case housing right behind where the front end loader connects. ....

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Chief
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2004-04-15          83217


I would strongly recommend that you get in touch with your area New Holland Technical Rep. and have him or her look at the tractor. I have read other accounts of this occurance but it was with a TC45D. It may have been a defective casting and hopefully NH will stand behind the repairs.

As I recall the bolts pulled through the mount points in the bell housing. ....

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Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999
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2004-04-15          83222


I remember seeing another case like that, but they discovered that what had happened was the dealer had assigned the youngest apprentice in the shop the job of installing the FEL. Apparently he had been sternly warned to make sure all the bolts were really good and tight.

Be a diligent, if not very bright, worker he had not only wound down every fastener on the FEL with the strongest impact gun in the place, he had 'retorqued' a bunch og bolts the factory had 'left loose'.

He had inadvertantly over-torqued the bolts between the block and the bell housing. The weakened part had broken through very shortly after delivery.

Best of luck. ....

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billy r
Join Date: Apr 2004
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2004-04-15          83233


The New Holland Technical Rep does not want to look at it. Just said it is out of warranty. The casting is broken in the middle not at bolt holes. I think this must have happened before or New Holland Technical Rep would want to look at it. Must be a weak link. ....

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TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002
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2004-04-16          83275


Too bad that happened and I'm a bit surprised at NH's response. I don't know if the tractor's history contains use of 3ph hoes, implements larger than recommended or the combination of heavy ballast, big loader weight and fast speeds on rough roads, if not then the situation doesn't say much for NH design. It also doesn't do much for a manufacturer's reputation among potential customers.

It sounds like the tech rep may be a bit deficient in PR skills and maybe you'd receive a better response from corporate CS reps. Warranty lengths are intended to cover the bulk of manufacturing defects. There are stories around where manufacturers have repaired major failures on tractors that were out of warranty just because it's is nearly impossible to say for particular cases if a defect caused it.

Generally it makes good business sense to be a little less in a customer's face since I at this moment may be forming an idea where I'll look for my next tractor--and I am interested in the outcome of this situation. A cynical view is that maybe manufacturers are trying to lever everybody into buying extended warranties and the CS people won't care about customers who don't have them. ....

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drcjv.
Join Date: Jul 2003
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2004-04-16          83300


Billy did you ever use a three point hoe on the tractor? ....

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billy r
Join Date: Apr 2004
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2004-04-16          83316


No! Only used a finish mower.

Thanks ....

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TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002
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2004-04-17          83389


I sure think it's worth a call to NH Customer Service just to see how rigid their warranty policy is. There's an 800 number on their site.

My pitch to them would be along the lines that it's a relatively new tractor that received only normal use with implements within specs (I'm assuming the mower is within rate capabilities).

Granted, warranties are to cover manufacturing defects but this is a major failure, and cases are't rotating components. It seems reasonable to expect cases to last indefinitely in normal use and perhaps cases should be given different warranty protection than engines and drive trains or accommodation made for owners who experience premature failure. The situation as described most certainly is an extreme premature failure. You might mention that discussion is continuing on this Board. ....

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oneace
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 1490 south central pa
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2004-04-17          83438


i work at a nh dealler and i wuld be interest in seeing some pics of this breakage. please feel free to email them to me. are you sure that it is a 99 i was unaware that the tc sieries was ariund then i thought they came around in 2001. ....

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oneace
Join Date: Mar 2004
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2004-04-17          83440


yes just checked some records and the tc did not come out in 99 so what year is your tractor? ....

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Peters
Join Date: Feb 2002
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2004-04-17          83445


Oneace want book are you looking in. I destinctly remember looking at tractors in fall 98 and they had them then. Machinery link has them listed.
My question is " Is the loader a new Holland?" The rep may want to claim the loader is to fault.
Peters ....

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oneace
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2004-04-17          83447


i am looking in the nh sevice manuals. The 1925 and the 1630 and so on are what was in production at that time they look like the tcs but are not. ....

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kwschumm
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2004-04-17          83448


Machinefinder has a 99 TC33 listed for sale as well. The picture with the ad shows TC33 decals on it. ....

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New Holland TC33D Tractor Frame broke in Half

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oneace
Join Date: Mar 2004
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2004-04-17          83450


don't know what to tell you that is what my service books say ....

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Peters
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2004-04-17          83454


Both lines were being sold in 99 as I recall. I was around in 98 and 99. ....

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oneace
Join Date: Mar 2004
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2004-04-23          84086


Here is the thing billyr sent me the pics of his broken tractor. The factory bucket is not on it it has some kind of 4in1 bucket and a heavy looking one to me. I don't know how to get the pis available to others if any body dose let me know. But it is definitely not an approved attachment for the 7308 loader or the tc33d. All i will say is that if a nh rep saw that he would say he is not going to cover that even if it were still under warranty simply because of the bucket that is attached to it. I can not tell how t is mounted either pinned on or with a ssl style quick attach plate, either way it is not right. I do not think that nh sells a quick attach plate for that loader but i may be wrong. I've only put them on the 16,17,and the new 18la loaders. i know ati makes them for just about every loader out there , but now I'm rambling. ....

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TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002
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2004-04-24          84170


That's an unfortunate story and too bad but there's probably not much help that can be offered from here. Oneace's take on the situation does sound pretty realistic from a CS point of view.

We sure have had a fair number of discussions about the risks of modifications in the past. Guess it can't be talked about often enough. It's a crap game--what works for years for one person is apt to bite the next person. Wish I had something better to say.

I think there are instructions for posting pics somewhere. There are size restrictions and people who post often have to do some editing to get their pics down to postable size. Billyr might want to have a say in whether his pics are posted or not.

....

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oneace
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2004-04-24          84173


i agree with you on the posting of his pics i would only want to show them if for some reason some body might have another option. I think the manufacturer of the bucket is construction attachments. But the situations is bleak ....

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Peters
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2004-04-24          84179


I would like to see the pictures, but I do not understand how attaching a different bucket to a NH loader and tractor would effect the the tractor. In commercial equipment this is done all the time. Murf attaches modified snow plow blades to his fleet of tractors to do commerical winter plowing. Are you telling me that if his Kubota fell in half there would be no waranty? The loader is set to lift a certain weight and forces are exerted on the tractors frame at a certain point. None of this changes despite the fact that there is a different bucket on the loader.
I would as more over ask; "Why did NH redesign the loaders?" Could they be causing some problems that showed up in rare cases and they needed to be corrected? ....

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Chief
Join Date: Jul 2003
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2004-04-24          84188


EXACTLY Eric! Well said and to the point! You just summed up exactly what I was thinking. In addition, provided the hydraulics were not modified to pick up more. (i.e. relief valves left at OEM adjustment) The FEL will pick up only what the relief valve setting allows as set from the dealer or factory. It should make NO difference what bucket is on the FEL within common sense and reason. Perhaps Billyr can fill us in as to what if any mods. were done to the FEL/tractor besides the bucket. At the very minimum this may cause someone else to take a look or prevent a possible problem. ....

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oneace
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2004-04-25          84189


if you want to see the pics e-mail me your e-mail and i will send them. I will not post them on here cause they are not of my tractor.
The only reason they changed the 7308 loader to the 14 la was to match design of the other NH loader. which in retrospect the 14la loader will handle more weight than the 7308.
As far as the relief valves on the tc33 you could almost be able to tip the tractor on is nose before it will pop off. With the standard bucket you would normally not be able to get the tractor to get light in the rear. Then there is also the point as to how much ballast he has or had on the rear of the tractor. With a bigger ssl style bucket and more ballast or even with just the standard loaded tires every time you lift the ass off the ground there is major stress at the bell housing and front axle. In a sense it is like bending a piece of metal back and forth, eventually something is going to give. Also if it is off the ground and you are relying on the 4wd front axle to move you and you hit a jolt there again something is bound to give.
but like i said get me your e-mail and I'll send you the pics they are really large ranging from KB to 1.MB

....

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TomG
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2004-04-25          84197


Unfortunately the substitute bucket likely would be an out for the CS folks and not much could be done except argue with the bucket manufacture or that the bucket was within recommended NH specs. It'd likely be a tough argument unless either the bucket manufacturer or NH specifically approved it for use on the tractor. Too bad but the ordinary person seems to get caught in the middle often in modern times. Even if the use always was entirely responsible you'd still have to win an argument and probably without documentation. Well, maybe the bucket manufacturer could argue with NH.

Some problems with an argument is that a 4n1 bucket can be used for digging, and using the dozer blade could produce some unusual stresses especially in turns or when hitting things. Tooth bars also could end up in warranty 'never never land.' Regarding the weight, a NH loader valve likely has circuit relief valve that are intended to provide protection against load shocks, but reliefs do have cracking time. I wouldn't know if reliefs would be adequate protection against big loader weight combined with big 3ph ballast weights at speed on rough ground. It'd be a murky argument at best.

I think the best approach is to recognize that it's an unfortunate circumstance that maybe NH would like to help with under the heading of customer good will. ....

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oneace
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2004-04-25          84232


I intend to show the pis to my NH service rep but i will not see him for a few weeks I'll keep all informed. ....

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billy r
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2004-04-26          84333


Although this was a used tractor when was purchased, it came from a New Holland dealer. If it had a 4 and 1 bucket that was not aproved by New Holland they should have removed or at least let the customer know there might be an issue. ....

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oneace
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2004-04-26          84382


now that is a different story. I did not know you bought the tractor with that bucket already installed. Now I might have to change my point of view a bit. Though nh definitely will not cover it the selling dealer should pay for at least half the cost, for the simple fact that they sold you a tractor with a unapproved attachment. Going through nh customer service is useless at this point. Contact an attorney and get him/her to draft a letter of intent and send it to the dealer provided it was a nh dealer you bought it from. That may change there mind. And will probably only cost about $50 for the lawyer. ....

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Chief
Join Date: Jul 2003
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2004-04-26          84383


Send me the name, address, and phone number to that lawyer! The lawyers in my neck of the woods wouldn't pick their nose or pass gas for less than $100 an hour with a one hour minimum. Sounds like it might be worth a try at this point, even if it cost you $500 to get some action going. ....

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kwschumm
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2004-04-26          84387


$100 an hour? What a bargain! Last lawyer we used charged $250/hour. ....

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Chief
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2004-04-26          84388


billyr, are you retired military? ....

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oneace
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2004-04-26          84390


I'm saying $50 because around here any way all they would charge is consultation to sign there name, and proof read the letter. Now keep in mind that you only have a claim against the dealer and you will most likely not get 100% coverage. It is there responsibility to make sure the tractor is to spec before they resell it. I know that I remove any thing that is not suitable or approved for the equipment at time of trade, weather the sales men likes it or not. the only thing approved for the 7308 is the factory bucket you would have to go to the larger tractor tc35 and up to be able to use other loader implements. ....

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stevenc
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2004-04-26          84433


this is something I would call New Holland about,,there has to be some kind of defect,,and your dealer ,,Really should help you! ....

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brokenarrow
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2004-04-26          84443


Steven
Wouldnt you think a defect would show up a bit sooner than 4 years after the fact? Although some may get mad at me, a 4 year old trctor is just that and who knows what it had gone thru before he got it. If it was stressed at one point in time out in the field it may be hard for anyone to tell, and how long can you hold NH responsible?
Oneace
I think your turning over a new leaf here? All this considerate-ness by you is awefull, I liked the old
smack-em Oneace better! LOL. ....

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Peters
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2004-04-27          84448


So you are telling me that if I buy a used car from a the manufactures dealer I and it falls in half I have no recourse and it is not necessarily a defect.
I would say unless there is external damage to the housing the tractor should stay in one piece. There is likely a flaw in the casting that is not evident during manufacture. Often these flaws show up later. One way to tell is if there was rust on the crack when it broke. This means the crack was pre-exsisting in the iron. We had a Kioti do a similar thing a while ago that was in waranty. In the discussion there was no evidence of abuse.
Good grief I have had 50 year old tractors that have gone through hell and the frame is in one piece. How much abuse can a 4 year old tractor have taken? ....

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daustin
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2004-04-27          84479


My clutch housing broke, with less than 1 year of use on my 2003 TC33d, under 200 hours. Repaired under warranty, great dealer support in Bridgeton NJ. ....

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daustin
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2004-04-27          84481


P.S. - had dealer installed 7308 loader, and NH backhoe, No modifications. ....

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billy r
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2004-04-27          84488


No, was in the service many years ago but not retired. ....

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Murf
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2004-04-27          84490


I wasn't really following this thread after my initial post until just now.

I have to disagree with Oneace on this 'aftermarket' business. As has been stated by others a loader's capacity is stated in terms of pounds it can lift. Period. The bucket's size, shape or manufacturer has zippo to do with that. While I can see that a huge snow bucket full of gravel will likely weigh a LOT more than a given loader is rated for, that's what the relief valve is for, to relieve excess pressure, period.

If the relief valve is set for X psi, that is the limiting factor, it has NOTHING to do with what is attached in place of the factory bucket.

Peters is right, I routinely have VERY modified implements on the fEL of our machines, Kubota is aware of them and have never made any comment about potential liability resulting from them, in fact they have even discussed producing some of them under license.

The whole point of a quick-tach system is to be ABLE to put something else on the FEL.

Best of luck. ....

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kwschumm
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2004-04-27          84491


I wonder if the relief valve was either misadjusted at the factory or modified by somebody. There is talk from time to time of somebody tweaking their relief valve setting to raise heavier loads. ....

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billy r
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2004-04-27          84495


Daustin, glad you were still under warranty, if not you might be faced with a $2800 repair bill like me. Hope it does not happen again, best of luck. ....

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Murf
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2004-04-27          84497


Billy R, if you have access to the machine I would have the relief valve removed from the machine and sent to a reputable hydraulics shop and have them give you a WRITTEN report of the settings of that valve.

If the relief valve is set to a value much higher than factory spec.'s then NH might have a real hard time denying coverage considering it came from a dealer that way.

Best of luck. ....

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billy r
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2004-04-27          84500


The problem is, the New Holland Rep is taking the position that it is out of warranty and not covered. He said no need for him to look at it because his decision would be the same. ....

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Murf
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2004-04-27          84506


Billy, believe me, any Rep. who thinks or says his word is the be all and end all on the matter is a Rep. who's retirement is near at hand.

I have run into this so often that I know some of the management at the factory for various manufacturers by NAME, and they know ME TOO!!!

I had one instance where a Rep. for Thomas told me it was abuse and not warranty, PERIOD. In two days I had a new job and he had a new territory, PERIOD.

Bottom line; Don't take 'no' for answer until the person giving it is at least someone with SEVERAL full-time secretarys, LOL.

Best of luck. ....

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oneace
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2004-04-27          84507


OK brokenarrow you asked for it.
The 7308 it is a quick attach form loader. But no there is no quick attach plate for mounting buckets or other implements available from New Holland PERIOD. Yes there may be aftermarket plates available but they are not supported by NH, in fact it is strongly advised to not use them. The hydraulics for the 7308 relief system is only there to protect the hoses from shock load not from lifting too much. With the factory bucket and proper ballast you will not normally be able to exceed the limits of the loader PERIOD. When you install and aftermarket quick attach you increase the amount of weight that the tractor is able to lift, thus causing the aluminum can affect i talked about earlier. Also the only cut NH loaders that DO support a quick attach plate and optional implements is the 16,17,and 18 la loaders, on the tc 35 Though 55. This is so because those loaders have frame connectors on the mounting.
Remember I have to look at these tractors everyday I know them pretty much inside and out.
I am all for the dealer to have to pay for half of the repairs simply because they left the tractor go with that bucket on it. ....

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kwschumm
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2004-04-27          84509


If there is no mechanism to prevent the loader from lifting too much and breaking the tractor in two, then that is a serious design flaw and even more reason for NH to fix it. ....

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oneace
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2004-04-27          84511


Can't you read? I said the MECHANISM for not lifting too much is the size and shape of the bucket. The factory installed bucket is what limits how much the loader is supposed to lift. Do you need me to say it in another language? Wait let me ask you a question. Have you ever operated any other loader besides a cut? My guess is probably not. With the recommended bucket or attachment you will most of the time as in 99% you will not over load the machine. Get in a skid loader one time with a bucket 6" larger than what is recommended fill it with dirt lift up and you will go for a ride, strait down on your face.
You see the purpose of any relief valve and its only purpose is to protect the system, the first is the circuit relief then there is the main system relief, Do you need a lesson as to what they do and what exactly each protects. If you do we can do it on another thread or through e-mail. ....

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kwschumm
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2004-04-27          84512


My, my, aren't you touchy. Have another beer, I'll even buy.

The BUCKET is not enough of a safety mechanism. Filling the bucket with, say, solid iron until it's heaped a couple of feet above the bucket and adding appropriate ballast will break the tractor in two. Is that a good idea? The fact that the 7308 loader has a very weak lift capacity, something like 800 lbs, is somewhat telling I think. ....

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oneace
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2004-04-27          84514


thanks but i don't drink. I'm not saying i agree with it but that is the fact. If you don't like it get a da with a 14la they are a much stronger loader but you still do not have frame connectors, which i also do not agree with. I have seen a few tc class 2 break which are the tc25 (out of production except in red) though tc33. all of which had a modified bucket. ....

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shortmagnum
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2004-04-27          84516


"Can't you read? I said the MECHANISM for not lifting to much is the size and shape of the bucket. The factory installed bucket is what limits how much the loader is supposed to lift. Do you need me to say it in another language? Wait let me ask you a question. Have you ever operated any other loader besides a cut?"

Hey oneace, do you have a cousin with the name rgauthier? He was an "expert" too. ....

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oneace
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2004-04-27          84517


What is that supposed to mean? ....

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shortmagnum
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2004-04-27          84519


Not long ago there was another member who took everything anyone said personally. It went to the point where he didn't make any sense and just railed at everyone.

Your bucket size argument doesn't make any sense. Ken and Murf are trying to tell you that the main safety mechanism is the pressure relief. I could mount a 2 ton bucket on my quick attach and I won't be able to lift it, and I won't break anything either because properly set pressure relief will not allow it. ....

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oneace
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2004-04-27          84521


and what i am saying is with the tc 33 and the 7308 load the relief valve is set to what the hoses and system can take, not the lift capacity. On the new loaders the relief is set just above lift capacity. And I do take this personally because i do know what am talking about, I have been working on and repairing these units and many other brands for a long time now.
I do not agree with some nh engineering but they are improving. Allot of what they had or have goes back to when ford was involved. They are in the process
phasing out all of the old ford products, and are introducing allot of good products that come in part from many very reputable companies. I may not be phrasing every thing right but what I am saying about the loader is fact and not opinion. I am not saying nor have i ever said nh was the best I am just trying to let people know what the facts are, weather they are ....

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Chief
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2004-04-27          84522


I seem to remember a post in which onace called someone a moron over this very subject.....................sound familiar????????? ;o) Then it was OK because "we" were all being "very blunt". ;o) Now it seems to be a different story when in fact it IS the SAME OLD sorry STORY.........if you disagree and can no longer make your point or case with logic and facts or at least what you in good faith think are such in a civil exchange of ideas............just call the other guy a provocative name or make a really rude or obnoxious comment to completely smoke screen the issue. Then a few other self rightous, self appointed referees can jump in a throw out a few pompus words when in fact the name calling and rude comments NEVER should have been used.

We are all here to learn something and once in awhile on a good day with luck; help someone out with a problem.......at least I am.

How about let's stick with the issue and leave all of the other crap out ehhhh??????? ;o) ....

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oneace
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2004-04-27          84524


i was trying to stick to the issue by explaining ho the relief valve is set for the 7308 loader It was a very simple statement that maybe i did not state right but it seem s some people did not under stand or maybe did not approve of. So i tried to restate it. As you already know i am not that good at getting my thoughts in to words.
Plus the fact that i already stated what needed to be done with the subject of this post This is not a nh matter this is a dealer problem nh will not do anything about it. It was the dealers responsibility to make sure the tractor was to spec before they resold it so the fault lies with them alone. ....

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brokenarrow
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2004-04-27          84529


Peters
I am forever cutting castings to check for the faults. I am well aware of how often castings are not solid even in a perfect run there is always the chance of defects. I was trying to say, how long should any dealer or manufacturer be responsible for material with their name on it? I to have a fifty plus year old tractor and after I (just sand blasted it) a few more repaires from many years ago have been found. There comes a point in time when a buyer becomes responsible for their own misfortunes.
If the tractor was originally purchased new and the same owner still owned a 4 yr old tractor I could see where the manufacterer may feel a responsibility to take on some of the costs of an out of warrenty product, but when a tractor has changed hands a couple of times I dont feel it is the manufacturers responsibility, maybe the dealer (that sold the used cut) should come to bat a bit and help him out. To blame the company for this, without any of us here knowing, what may at one point in time have happened to the cut, (if anything at all) I feel is a bit hard on NH.
I hear some (mild) NH slamming or "slighting" going on and we really dont know the whole story (or maybe we do?) who knows, untill you cut the casting and see if porosity or any other likely defect is there, we cant really know?
Like I was saying, the dealer may be responsible for the second hand tractor but I would think that after it changed hands and is out of warrenty the manufacterer should be off the hook.
I am responsible for Oneace, (I kinda pushed him a bit) I am sorry for poking the embers a bit.
From my reading (interpretation) of the feeling here is as follows. Oneace works for a NH dealer, so he is defending his lively hood a bit, I work for CNH so I am biased or at the least protecting my future retirement (LOL). Some green guys and orange guys here may or may not be kinda liking this a bit (cause it is not their brand) There may be a different attitude if it were a green or orange tractor talking about. (Maybe not just a feeling from reading the posts)
I hope that I have never offended anyone here, I have certainly never intended to. Good heated disagreeing topics are one great way of getting alot of information from alot of different view points. When everyone agrees or goes along with the status que some info that may help someone may be left out. I am having fun here (then again no one has called me a name YET!) By the way, I dont drink, I cant read very good, I certainly cant spell, sometimes I need a bat hitting me in the head to figure out something and the list goes on and on for me. ....

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kwschumm
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2004-04-27          84533


Well, I surely hope I haven't offended any blue owners here. That wasn't my intent, and I really like the NH CUTs. My point was that if any tractor can be broken by lifting too much weight with the FEL it is poor design OR something isn't working right. I remain skeptical that that's the way they it is intended to work. ....

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kwschumm
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2004-04-27          84534


There was a thread on another board six or eight months ago where some guys were complaining that their FELs couldn't lift the rated weight. It turned out on those that the relief valve was misadjusted at the factory. I figure if they can mess up and adjust it too low they could do the opposite as well. ....

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Chief
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2004-04-27          84535


If it is built by man.........it can be broken.......NO matter what color paint is on the machine. That is one of the important reasons we are all here isn't it? Sharing info. so we can learn from other's experiences, mistakes, and knowledge. ....

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oneace
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2004-04-27          84536


again that was a ford design the new tractors are 100% different. If you were to put a gauge on a 7308 loader valve the relief will not pop till about 2800 to 2850lbs hoses are rated at 3000 to 3500. And i personaly check the reilfe on all tractors before i send them out but i'm not saying eveydealer dose that that is just something i do for my own piece of mind. ....

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oneace
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2004-04-27          84540


One thing is defenitly true hydraulics are one of the most complicated systems out there. It would take a long time to argure evey point about releif valve settings pressures ect. I dont know every thing about them nor do i really have to. That is why we have a library with with service manuals for every ford and nh product ever made. I have to save some space in my brain for moore important stuff, like where i put my car keys?
....

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TomG
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2004-04-28          84563


Back to maybe learning something--for myself anyway. I think safety relief settings on 3ph's are around 1,500 lbs. higher than system relief pressures. That's probably true for loader valves as well. If so then maybe what a loader can lift isn't the main potential load since it could sustain considerably greater shock loads when the valves were in neutral.

My impression is that system relief pressures may have more to do with balance and stability and maybe with front axle and hydraulic component longevity than with protecting the structure. Anyway, I can see all sorts of reasons why a manufacturer might want to limit the static lift capacity well below the structural limits, and the difference between static and moving weight on castings is a murky subject well beyond me. Digging with a loader is going to produce very different loads than lifting or carrying weight. Hard telling if a 4in1 bucket allows work a tractor wasn't engineered for and if weight is the main issue.

It's best here when we all contribute as well as learn and recognize that we do so. Wonder if I've contributed anything here? ....

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Murf
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2004-04-28          84571


Chief, actually I think that saying actually goes, "If it is built by man...it can be broken by a woman."

Tom, you hit my point square on, sort of...

Oneace, let me put it to you in the form of a simple analogy. What you're saying is that the FEL's relief valve is not the limiting factor for lift capacity, bucket size is. I'm sure the manual says the 7308 should be suitable ballasted for full FEL capacity. So, let's say thats the case, we have a 7308 with the standard bucket on the FEL and suggested ballast.

Now the operator tries to scoop some dirt out of a pile, and the bucket finds a BFR (big f---ing rock) down in the pile that is WAY beyond the lift capacity of the CUT, even without all the dirt piled on top.

You're saying the FEL will self-destruct before it stops trying to lift that BFR. Further, and that such damage is NOT a warranty item?

That is a defect.

You say the relief valve is set to 2800 or 2850 psi, but since a typical system relief valve setting is about 1500 psi I wonder about the logic in that. Why on earth would you need a relief valve set to 2800 psi when the system is ony capable of producing about half of that?

Further, as Tom stated, the relief valve would do NOTHING to prevent or relieve shock loads when the valve is in the static position, so protection of the hoses is a rather moot excuse for high settings.

Bad or lack of engineering is more likely.

A perfect example of that 'protection setting' in a CUT is the governor, most modern diesels, such as those in our CUT's are capable of running at fairly high RPM's, but the governor is set to limit the RPM's to just above the needed point to drive a PTO at the correct speed. Or is the governor on a NH CUT set to about 6,000RPM ?

Best of luck. ....

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DRankin
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2004-04-28          84581


I think I understand the point Oneace is trying to make. We are all relating to what the machine can lift and the protection that should be afforded by the relief valve.

But what if the load, or rather the overload, is already lifted. I can think of a dozen examples, but in this case lets say you drive your 4 in 1 bucket(or your grapple) up to a pile of logs and latch onto the top log that weighs twice what your loader is rated for, and once it is in your grip you just back away from the pile.

I don't see the relief valve protecting anything here. If the sudden overload does not tip the tractor on it's nose it will certainly play havoc with hoses and structural components.

I think the point is that you can get a overload onto a FEL that it doesn't have the power to lift.... but it is very unlikely to happen if you stick with the issued bucket with no added features, grapples or forks. ....

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Murf
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2004-04-28          84583


That was what I was trying to get at when I said "Further, as Tom stated, the relief valve would do NOTHING to prevent or relieve shock loads when the valve is in the static position, so protection of the hoses is a rather moot excuse for high settings."

If the valve is in the neutral position there is nothing to prevent an overload, that is why the burst ratings are so much higher than the working pressures, that difference is your only safety margin.
....

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kwschumm
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2004-04-28          84585


Mark, that's a good point I hadn't considered. It would be interesting to see pictures of the failure discussed here. ....

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kwschumm
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2004-04-28          84614


I have been thinking about the scenario that Mark described above. It seems to me that the tractor should be strong enough to handle the longitudinal tension of this scenario and that the rear tires should just lose traction and spin. Now if the tractor was pulling against a slack cable and had a head of steam when the end of the cable was reached that would be another story.

Where am I wrong? ....

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grassgod
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2004-04-28          84617


I also would like to see those pics. ....

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oneace
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2004-04-28          84622


I need yuor e-mail they are too big to post on here. ....

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brokenarrow
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2004-04-28          84655


kwschumm
(I figure if they can mess up and adjust it too low they could do the opposite as well)
Good point!!!!
No offense took! Its hard to explain sometimes what I want to say, so If I came accrossed wrong PLEASE take my apologie, nothing was intended or directed.

Anyone know why a relief valve would be used that could be adjusted to accept more load than the frame could take?

Is there any NO NO's when digging out rocks or top soil off the surface of a field? I suppose alot of force could be exerted when driving forward and not operating the fel properly? ....

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grassgod
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2004-04-28          84656


oneace - just click on my user name which will bring up my profile. My email adress is in there. this site wont let me out my email address on this thread for some reason. ....

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TomG
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2004-04-29          84677


Said it before but my belief (beliefs aren't facts) is that corporate policies for safety/liability issues impose working designs that are well below structural limits. If that's true, relief pressures are a safety thing and not a structural thing. Of course, a typical management would find it almost irresistible to engineer the structure down to the liability limits. I can see that a corporation wouldn't want to have new operator/owners to be able to have huge loader weights and then lift them up high to dump them while sitting on a side-hill. They'd likely find themselves in a MacCoffee trial. They'd probably use lower relief settings and recommend small buckets instead. Too bad but warning the stupid isn't a safe practice anymore. Safety engineering has the effect of reducing the useful work and expensive tractor could otherwise do given skilled operation.

An earlier part of this thread might distinguish between types of relief valves. I think there are circuit types and pressure line types, and a valve assembly can have one, the other, both or none of them. Don't know about this particular valve. If it has circuit reliefs they should protect the cylinders, hoses etc while valves aren't in operation but at pressures above the system pressure. ....

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bmlekki
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2004-04-29          84702


Hey guys... I'll post the pictures on my server, if I get permission from Bill...

Sound good??? ....

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kwschumm
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2004-04-29          84708


Sounds good to me. bmlekki are you billy, the original poster? Your profile says you have a JD 790 so I'm just curious.

(Edit: Never mind, I'm just being dense) ....

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billy r
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2004-04-29          84709


You have my permission to post the pictures.

Thanks
Billy ....

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bmlekki
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2004-04-29          84710


Hi All...

I have posted the pictures on my site. The link is below. You can click on the images to see the larger ones. Keep in mind they are large and may take a few minutes to open up..

....


Link:   Some Images of the TC33D Frame break

 
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Chief
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2004-04-29          84717


Thanks for posting the pictures. I really can't tell much from them other than the tractor definitely broke in half. I still stand by my original contention that this should have NEVER happened. The only mitigating factor would be if this machine was subject to some kind of radical, EXTREME, and HIGHLY UNLIKELY abuse such as being dropped or rolled. ....

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grassgod
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2004-04-29          84719


WOW - Glad i chose to go Orange! ....

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kwschumm
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2004-04-29          84723


Definitely a major failure. Can't tell much else. I'd like to see a close-up of the failed components (clutch housing, whatever). It would be interesting to see what the bolt holes look like - if they are a pull-through failure, or a torsional type failure, or if there was a crack somewhere else that didn't involve the bolt holes.

Grass, I'd bet all brands have had major failures of one kind or another. I remember seeing a Kubota backhoe that was twisted like a pretzel - Kubota claimed it was due to the addition of an aftermarket thumb. Who the heck knows? One failure does not a trend make, but if there are a smattering of similar failures then there's probably an engineering defect somewhere. ....

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grassgod
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2004-04-29          84733


Ken - I wasnt able to finish reading that :(. only a guy into qnx operating systems would think as deeply as to how the bolts might have gave out or what not but thats a good thing :). When i make my comments negatively toward deere, It is only my anger i dont truely belive there are a poor qaulity machine.I mean no offense. ....

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grassgod
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2004-04-29          84734


BY the way ken - I like the way you fabricated your new chipper in the new pic you added. ....

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Chief
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2004-04-29          84739


Oneace, I am sorry to say that is your choice to make. Certainly NOT that I would like to see you go because I most certainly would NOT. Everyone's contributions on this web site are important and valued; yours included. Name calling is NOT. I thought we were past the "Moron Thing"......at least I am.

Your comments and thoughts about what happened to this machine may well have some truth to them although I still think only the most EXTEREME of abuse could have caused that or a design problem/fault. I disagree with your conclusion but I most certainly do not mean for that to or intend to discredit you or what you say. I simply and respectfully disagree. I have not the slightest problem with disagreement or even a rather passionate dissagreement provided the name calling and personal stuff is left out.

With respect to "looking for me in your service department when it's your turn to pay the bill............you are gonna have one heck of a long wait..........in fact hell will probably freeze over first as I have had VERY poor experiences with Ford and New Holland products and customer support. You might see me if you ever decide to work for Kubota or Deere. ;o)

Fixing my screw ups???????? I rebuilt my first HLR out of a John Deere 450-B about 23 years ago. I am currently rebuilding the mower power train system for a John Deere F525. I also perform all of the maintenance on my 4410........ I doubt it. ;o) But as you can see the green paint breaks and is hell to work on too. I rebuilt or supervised a few things being rebuilt in between then and now during my 21 year journey with the U.S.Army too. ;o)

Hope that it did you good to blow off a little steam and hopefully you will reconsider.
....

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kwschumm
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2004-04-29          84740


I'm still trying to figure out what brought on the latest rant. But since I don't know anything I guess I never will. ....

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kwschumm
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2004-04-29          84743


Grass, thanks for your comments on the chipper. I have the new pto shaft and hope to have it up and running tomorrow. I plan to post a review after I've used it for awhile. ....

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brokenarrow
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2004-04-29          84745


Since I REALLY dont know how much a small tractor can take as for use and abuse, I will tread lightly since I own one of those faulty machines. In Oneaces defense, nobody does know what really happened to the tractor, and that is not to discredit Billy R. or insult him or question his explanation of how this happened. I would say that the post was correct that said if this kind of thing happens all the time that there would be a design flaw. Now since I did not see any other questions like this on the board and I done a search and found NO complaints of frames breaking under normal use, It may be safe to say that this is one of three things,
1> a unfortunate incident involving a bad part on the tractor.
2> Something happened to the tractor before he owned it, or while he owned it that may have caused this to finally fracture.(No one may ever know, including Billy)
3. A very well devised post to discredit a reputable tractor company.
Dont flame on the last possibility, one never knows. ....

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bluetay
Join Date: Feb 2004
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2004-04-29          84746


Oneace: Hope you reconsider I've appreciated your input to this board. Remember "tis a wise farmer that pulls his manure spreader into the wind". Whatever you decide be happy,be blessed. ....

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DRankin
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2004-04-29          84759


One Ace: Interacting with mere mortals can be tedious at best, and certainly tiresome with protracted engagements.

As far as I am concerned, you are welcome to take your ball and go home. ....

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DK35vince
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2004-04-30          84803


Way to go guys !!
You chased away the only person here that ever knew anything about a tractor !
Just ask him !!! ....

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loghouse95
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2004-04-30          84806


Guys I will put my 2 cents worth in.. I have saw two tractors break in two parts and both times it was caused by operator error, On one occassion the individual was trying to lift buckets of dirt and rock and when the rear became light he put on a bushhog with concrete blocks, and the other time the bucket was raised off the ground and the bucket was filled with rocks, both times the breaks occured when the tractor was moving.. I think a lot of people fail to realize the limits of the FARM tractor, it is not a bull dozer or a commerical loader ....

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kwschumm
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2004-04-30          84807


You're right of course. Operator error and abuse can certainly break a tractor. But a manufacturing defect or bad engineering can cause them to be failure prone as well. Without examining the tractor nobody can tell with certainty, so it's sort of a pointless debate - but an interesting one. ....

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motrack
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2004-04-30          84822


Billy...........what is the serial # of your TC33D? We have seen this breakage before. ....

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brokenarrow
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2004-04-30          84823


DRankin/ DK35
LMAO ....

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ncrunch32
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2004-04-30          84834


loghouse95, your comment makes me nervous. I pick up buckets of rock and dirt all the time and use my backhoe as rear ballast. If my tractor broke in two pieces I certainly would be at JD Dealer demanding a refund. I assume my 4310 can pick up and handle whatever dirt, gravel, 1 1/4" rock, other ordinary types of "excavation" material the bucket can hold. I assume whatever it can pick up - it can handle. Even while driving. If not, someone please warn me now.

I do wonder about one of the pics that Billy R had that apparently showed grapple hydraulics on the front loader frame. I imagine those hydraulic forces might exert some unusual forces back on the tractor if the grapple hooks get locked between trees, logs, etc. But I am speaking from very limited experience of course.


....

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DK35vince
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2004-05-01          84839


ncrunch,
The factory loader and relief valve settings should be designed to not exceed what the tractor can handle.
If the loader relief valve is set at factory recommended specs it will only lift a certain amount, grapple or no grapple, bigger bucket or smaller bucket, forks or no forks,Etc.
If you try to exceed what the loader will lift it simply will not lift it. The relief valve will stop you, that is what it is there for.
Just take it easy through rough areas and you should be fine !!
....

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TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002
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2004-05-01          84848


Holding down the ground speed when carrying big loader and 3ph weight is good. The system relief valve doesn't provide direct protection when no valve is operated. It does keep a person from getting big weight raised in the first place though.

It's really impossible to design a tractor that's bombproof and does useful work as well. To own and use one is to risk breaking it. Recommendations are a market thing and even staying within recommended limits doesn't guarantee a particular individual with a particular tractor isn't going to have a major break when doing perfectly reasonable work.

One trouble is that many modern CUT's use an engine/cast cases design that originally was mostly for draft work. Putting loaders on that design is sort of an unnatural graft-on that requires all sort of compromises. Castings are strong for their weight but they do break rather than bend. A lot of the protection against shock loads comes from the tires and flex in 3ph and loader arms. I suspect that stiff R4's carrying high weight and high pressure may not do the tractor any favours. Engineers can't put too many factors into designs or they become over-determined--meaning that there's no solution.

A CUT is likely inherently less bombproof than a skid-steer for example but then a skid steer wouldn't be great for lawn mowing. A CUT is kind of like a Swiss Army knife. Generally useful but wood carvers probably don't use them much. Just enjoy them for what they do and don't get sucked into the 4wd 1/2-ton ads that suggest having 4wd makes a person invincible. ....

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DK35vince
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2004-05-01          84850


TomG,
That was the best answer yet !! ....

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drcjv.
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2004-05-01          84852


This thread has me wondering about ballast how much is enough or too much and how do wheel weights and filled tires fit into the equation? ....

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loghouse95
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2004-05-01          84883


Everyone keeps refering to the factory relief valve not allowing you to lift more than the tractor can handle, which is a valid point but when you put a 1000 lbs on the tph you are changing everything,your loader might be able to handle the load and the tph might be able to handle the load but you are putting a tremendous amount of stress at the point where your tractor is joined together, my loader is rated at 1750lbs lifting capacity, the tph at 3100lbs can I lift that much,yes, but would I, ABSOLUTELY NOT..The best advice I can give is use common sense, assuming there is not a defective part, if you use your loader as it is intended for a FARM TRACTOR you will never break a tractor in to ....

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billy r
Join Date: Apr 2004
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2004-05-01          84896


Motrack, the serial # of my tractor is G019348. ....

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Billy
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2004-05-01          84898


loghouse95

The way I see it is the relief valve will overcome an overloaded FEL or 3ph, no matter of the weight of the ballast.

Where the problem comes in is when you start to move the load. You hit a bump and the inertia of the load can overcome the structural strength of the tractor.

On second thought, Am I just repeating what you said? ....

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brokenarrow
Join Date: Jan 2004
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2004-05-01          84902


Loghouses95
Great wording!!!
If anything comes of this thread AT ALL, maybe some of of us will pay attention to the loads and the way they are carried (not that anyone doesnt already).
If the tractors start cracking in half regularily then it is a serious problem untill then it is a misfortunate situation that may or may not be due to any of the theorys presented for the history of this tractor is an unknown. I am going to keep all the info I have learned from this thread in the back of my head when transporting loads and not worry everytime I hit a bump.
....

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motrack
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2004-05-01          84922


have found info in New Holland dealer assist which addresses problems with TC series tractors breaking in two.

it will be monday before I am back in dealer assist......will check to see if its serial # specific

what model of loader is on you tractor?

Per New Holland a TC33 tractor should have around 700# of rear weights for loader work. ....

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billy r
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2004-05-02          85017


Motrack, Thanks any infromation would be appreciated. I had a bush hog on the 3 point hitch when the break occured.
....

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JParker
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2004-05-13          85980


I have been lifting some pretty heavy logs with an Orange B7800 w/4-in-1 & loaded rear tires, but no other ballast. I had considered adding a weight box or other impliment for extra lift, but now am re-thinking the extra ballast idea.

On attempts to pull stumps, I sometimes lift the rear and sometimes the relief valve stops me. That makes me think the valve is set to relieve at about the same lifting force that the tractor's own weight X wheel base will counteract.

The local dealer set up the package with a Long 4-in-1. He even suggested a weight box to enhance lift capacity. I just hadn't gotten around to it yet.

Getting slowly lifted in the air seems to be a good reminder to cut the trees into smaller pieces, and keep the seat belt on.
....

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stevenc
Join Date: Jul 2003
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2004-05-13          86003


BILLY,,if your address is blocked,as yours is,,there cant be a lot of silent replyes ....

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billy r
Join Date: Apr 2004
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2004-05-17          86192


stevenc, I unblocked my E-mail address.
Thanks ....

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billy r
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2004-05-17          86193


motack, did you find any information o n this problem? ....

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oneace
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2004-05-17          86230


what he was refering to is based on haveing a 3pt b-hoe attached to your machine and that was causing the unints to break in two. ....

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billy r
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2004-05-19          86378


The New Holland Technical Rep, after two months, look at the broke tractor. He said New Holland would not help on repair because the tractor was out of warranty. I would be very concerned if I had one of these tractors with a FEL. I will not use the FEL for anything until I can trade this for another brand. Repair bill $3550. ....

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oneace
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2004-05-19          86395


Look I'm sorry about your situation but there are only a hand full of tc in the WORLD that have broken like that. There is nothing wrong with the tc 33 or the 7308 loader. In fact there are just as many deer and kubotas as new Hollands that have split like that. It is a bad circumstance but some times it happens. You bought the tractor used so I'm not saying you did any thing wrong but the guy before you probably did. You got a bad deal but that is the chance you take when you buy a used tractor modified or not. Next time look at a new tractor Or at least one with all o.e.m. equipment on it. I'll make a deal with you, you pay for shipping to and from my shop and parts and I'll fix it for free in my spare time. ....

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truck6jason
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2009-03-21          161306


I have a 2000 TC 33D and had the same thing happen to me the other day, mine broke all the way around just behind where the front end loader mounts. When I shut the machine down and looked at the damage the crack had rust in it about two thirds of the way aroundthe housing. My father and I have owned the machine since it was new and it has treated it very well. I'm starting to think that it may be a manufacturer defect. I know that it is well beyond the warranty but I was wondering if anyone else has had a similar situation and what if anything the dealer was willing to do about it,

Thanks, ....

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cutter
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2009-03-23          161338


Wow, this thread brings back memories. I was reading some posts by members that no longer hang around, I sure miss them. Sorry to hear of your troubles.

Can't help you with an answer, did you read the entire thread to see if there is one buried in the text? I traded my 2000 NH TC29 due to numerous issues just before the warranty expired. It is the same machine as the 33 with a different engine. Most likely a dealer isn't going to do anything but may hook you up with a factory rep. Worth a try.

....

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truck6jason
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2009-03-23          161340


Thanks,
Talked to the local dealer today, He stated there was a TSB on it and then took my info and told me he would call me back in a little bit, haven't heard anything yet. ....

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grassgod
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2009-03-23          161341


I would get a welding fabricator to fix it if you dont hear back from them within a few weeks. ....

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earthwrks
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2009-03-23          161344


I've got an '02 22D. I forgot to look at today but the service manual doesn't show any pix of the area in question.

You might want6 to talk to a few "strict liability" attorneys. I did when I had problems with my NH skid steer. I happened to have called my dealer's attorney whio wouldn't take my case---but I have a hunch he called the dealer and gave him a heads up because long-story-short NH bought my loader and gave me a $13,000 discount. (yeah, I am a name dropper when I have to be LOL)

You may want to call around to shops that specialize in machine repair---I think the area in question is cast iron--I think. It may be able to be brazed or silver soldered---not sure. ....

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dougbitt
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2009-03-31          161558


Hmmm... today 3/30/09, my TC33 split behind the rear loader mounts, too. Wow, $1000 for the clutch housing + labor, this is rediculous!!! ....

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grassgod
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2009-03-31          161559


Wow Doug, sorry for your loss! This seems to be fairly common for that machine. You should know that, although I dont know how it happened to yours, it probably wasnt your fault. ....

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dougbitt
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2009-03-31          161560


Didn't know it til, I googled it, was minding my own business so to speak. Had a brush hog on the back for counter weight & was unloading plywood off my truck. I Didn't have any problem with the 1st 3 loads, although the relief valve didn't allow any more lift, This time though, I didn't try to cotinue to lift the boom, & SNAP!!!. I, also heard something rubbing while the engine was running, & immediately shut it down. A small amount of hydrolic fluid is leaking out on the clutch now visible. Should I try trading it in on a used tractor, or fix it? ....

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hardwood
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2009-03-31          161563


I didn't read any of the old posts but is this a cast iron housing that possibly could bne welded and renforced? I'm afraid you are pretty much stuck with fixing rather than trading. Anyone trading it in is going to allow lots of margin to put it back into resale condition. ....

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dougbitt
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2009-03-31          161564


thanks for the info hardwood, the casing is cast, I believe I saw in an earlier post that it's aluminum. Aluminum is harder to weld then steel & from my understanding it's weaker past the weld. I don't know this for a fact, but could there be micro crack that aren't visible,too ....

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Murf
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2009-03-31          161567


If the casting is aluminum or some alloy containing aluminum or magnesium, forget welding it back together, you will never get the strength it had, let alone increasing it.

Unfortunately this is just a case of taking a financial hit unless NH will warranty the part.

From a purely scientific point of view this is EXACTLY what I was talking about in the thread linked to below.

When you put a load on the back of the tractor, in this case the operator and a bush hog, and load on the front of the tractor, in this case plywood, the tractor wants to bend in the middle.

In this case it did just that.

Best of luck. ....


Link:   Broken tractor thread.

 
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grassgod
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2009-03-31          161576


But Murf - I use counter weight attached to my 3pt hitch on my Kubota & load my loader up all the time without any problems, been doing it since I bought it new in 04'. I see others doing it all the time also, should Doug's tractor be able to also within reason? ....

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Murf
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2009-03-31          161580


Should it? Yes.

Could it? Read the story......... :(

We do the same thing, also with no problems, but I too read about these things happening, more often than not it seems with a B/H involved, but plenty of times not.

One of the garden centers near me that does a LOT of tree sales had that happen also. They had been using the tractor exclusively with cement-filled drum on the 3pth and a boom pole in place of the bucket to carry root balls around and load them on customers vehicles or to carry them to where they were to be planted.

Same drill, one day doing what they had always done, bang, broken in half! :(

I guess it's just like trucks, some brands just seem to hold up better than others.

Best of luck. ....

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kwschumm
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2009-03-31          161582


In the case of NH I wonder if there are some bolts that need regular tightening that aren't on the maintenance list. Anyone know of a TSB on this problem? ....

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grassgod
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2009-03-31          161586


I assume this tread is going to hurt NH sales, if it hasnt already!

Your right Murf - stuff happens. And yes, some brands do seem to hold up better. ....

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dougbitt
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2009-03-31          161587


kwschumm, the splitting had nothing to do with any bolt maintenance, the cast split.

....

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dougbitt
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2009-03-31          161588


Took it to the dealer today & the dealer swapped the tractor & loader for a new T2220 & loader for $11,260 & refinanced the balance from 7% to 0% & reduced my monthly payment by $30. Bummer that I have to make these payments for an extra 3 yrs but I think I got an excellent deal. I looked at the new design & the clutch housing is now part of the front of the transmission. The loader is beefier & is capable of lifting 50% more. NH I believe to still be an excellent tractor. ....

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grassgod
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2009-03-31          161589


Glad to hear your happy Doug! Enjoy your new machine. ....

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buffalofarm
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2009-04-01          161600


Hopefully your dealer offers more help than mine did. NH representative treated me like dirt. No help cost $3500 to get my tractor back. Now I use an orange tractor and love it. ....

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grassgod
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2009-04-01          161615


buffalofarm - Congrats & welcome to team Orange. I switched from Green to Orange in 04' & have been very happy since! Enjoy that strong & reliable beast!
....

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auerbach
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2009-05-03          162496


I'd contact a lawyer who does consumer-protection work and knows the precidents on "implied warranties" in your jurisdiction. ....

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earthwrks
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2009-05-03          162499


Auer in the USistan, I'm pretty sure it's what is called "strict liability". The lawyers I spoke to wanted $2500-%5000 retainers to start with no promise or even hope of winning. I got my situation resolved by implying that I had an attorney (but really didn't). ....

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truck6jason
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2009-05-04          162516


Well, I got my tractor back from the dealer. $4,700.00 later it is working. The dealer contacted NH and stated that they would not cover any of the costs and there was a TSB on the problem but no "campaign" what ever that means.

Obviously there is a problem with design with this many posts. ....

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buffalofarm
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2009-05-04          162521


I agree there is a design problem, however base on my dealings with MH they will blame you for the problem. MH representative would not even discuss it with me. ....

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earthwrks
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2009-05-05          162561


Having been a Technical Writer in a past life LOL, and wrote TSB's and involved in campaigns.

A TSB is a Technical Service Bulletin. They're used to notify a dealer/servcie technician of anything from service tips, to advise of revisions to the service manual, advise of newly discovered problems and how to resolve. Typically, a TSB and the information it covers is for when a Customer has an issue and THEN and only then is the dealer allowed to act upon it--like they know batteries are going bad prematurely, or tractors are breaking in half LOL---don't offer to fix it unless the Customer wants it done.

Campaigns typically are initiated by a TSB and notify the dealer the manufacturer has identified an issue that could cause damage, injury or death if not corrected. Sometimes but not all the time the customer may be contacted about the issue and asked to bring in their property to be fixed or replaced. Other times they will fix it without you knowing it which is illegal---the Feds sued Nissan back in the early '90's for doing that to increase customer perception their cars were reliable but weren't. Normally when this happens, you can bet there are big dollars on the line and/or they have been sued for not fixing the problem---examples: Ford car ignition switches causing fires; fuel line breakage; brakes locking up; engine fires. ....

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lawyer
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2009-07-17          164154


My 1999 NH 233D recently broke in half while I was transporting a half bucket of sand and pulling a scraper blade to level a lane. The dealer I purchased it from provided me a repair estimate of approximately $4,200. In response to my request to New Holland, it sent a regional rep. to look at it. Nothing specific was offered other than that NH might do something if it were determined that there was a casting defect. The company rep. told me in a telephone discusssion that the only other example of this event he was aware of was a result of the operator attempting to reverse the direction of a cut tree, using the fully extended bucket. The salesman who sold it to me said that he was aware of some situations where this could occur if the tractor was moving over rough terrain with a loaded bucket. The owner of the dealership in a telephone discussion asked me how long did I expect the NH to last. I advised him that my other tractor is a 1951 Allis Chalmers CA, and that this kind of break was inconceivable with it. I also informed him that I had operated a variety of tractors, small to large, and that this kind of breakdown suggested a clear defect in design.

The dealership sent me an offer to take my NH in as a trade in on a Kubota with generous financing terms. It was disapointing to determine that the quoted price was more than $6,000 more than I could purchase the same equipment elsewhere. As it appeared the price quoted for the repair included substantial profit dfor New Holland on the parts and the dealership for the labor I elected to take it elsewhere for repair.

The experienced NH repairman who is repairning it said that he had seen several of these breaks. In his view it was caused by the attachment of the bucket lift arms to the center of the tractor rather trhan to the rear axle. This design choice puts additional strain on the tractor frame. It does permit placement of the hydraulics forward and away from the driver seat area.

Had I known of the history of breaks I could have traded the NH in on a beter designed and stouter tractor before it broke. I believe the dealer and or manufacturer should have provided written notification.

I would appreciate information on other NH breaks of this sort including the purchase date, serial no., date of break,name and location of dealer where repaired,and cost of repair, If the number of "defects" is substantial and/or the timing is significant, a legal action may be successfully brought to obtain some recovery for all, and notification to the remaining owners.


....

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Murf
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2009-07-17          164156


Quote:
Originally Posted by lawyer | view 164154
I would appreciate information on other NH breaks of this sort including the purchase date, serial no., date of break,name and location of dealer where repaired,and cost of repair,If the number of "defects" is substantial and/or the timing is significant, a legal action may be successfully brought to obtain some recovery for all, and notification to the remaining owners.


While I commend your effort, I doubt you will find more than a hand-full of stories of this posted on the internet, I know of people who have spent untold hours searching for the same thing, anecdotal evidence is about all that ever comes up.

If you use the search function on this board you will find this and another 1 or 2 threads on the subject.

BTW, just as you appear here as nothing more than "lawyer" others don't post personal information either.


Best of luck. ....

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earthwrks
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2009-07-17          164158


Google "class actio suit New Holland TC33D" and see what comes up. Googling worked for me when I had to find lawyer to handle my case against AT&T Advertising Pay-Per-Click program scam.

BTW< my 2002 TC##D has not a problem with breakage--I don't have a loader bucket but do abuse it other ways. ....

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kthompson
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2009-07-18          164170


Quote:
Originally Posted by earthwrks | view 164158
BTW< my 2002 TC##D has not a problem with breakage--I don't have a loader bucket but do abuse it other ways.


You must be kidding...the great EW abused a piece of equipment. :) :) :) sorry the smileys don't say it strong enough. ....

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Blues1
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2009-07-27          164408


I'm not sure I read the message string closely enough, but the "broken" tactors seemed to be from model years at least 4 or 5 years ago. Is anybody aware if NH came up with a design change to address this issue in the more recent model years? ....

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auerbach
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2009-07-27          164411


Having had my yannie split in half from an FEL up-pull, and having also paid the same amount for the repair, I Googled "class action + tractor" and found, among other things, that there's a Kubota settlement for a clutch defect on the M-8200 and M-9000 models within three years of 2004. ....

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earthwrks
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2009-07-27          164416


Mine is a 2002 made in about September. I wnate3d the latest version style-wise so I opted for then almost-black frame--not sure if this could be an identifier.

I have a hunch that checking out www.messicks.com and looking through the parts diagrams may reveal some VINs that could shed some light on the subject. ....

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earthwrks
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2009-07-27          164420


Well, they're not broken down by VIN. The same part--Clutch Housing which bolts up to the back of the engine plate is the same part number for a TC33D and a TC33DA made years apart. No different part for early versus later. The housing sells for $1050.

I have to wonder (didn't check) if geared machines use th same housing. Anyone know if geared machines are the only ones breaking? ....

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Blues1
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2009-08-04          164640


At least a couple of the "broken" tractors noted in this thread had 7308 loaders. When comparing a 6 year old tractor with a 7308 loader with a newer model with an "LA" loader, you see that the loader attachment to the tractor has been beefed up with significant bracing. I'm wondering if this was an effort to fix a design flaw in the previous setup. Because of the potential liabilities, I doubt NH would admit it, but is still makes me wonder.

Does anyone know of NH tractors with LA loaders breaking in half? ....

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truck6jason
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2009-08-07          164747


They are the same part number but the new housing on mine looks heavier. The new one also looks a little different near the loader attachment than the old broken one did. ....

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davepost1
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2010-09-07          173816


Had the same thing happen to me a few years ago have a tc33d with a woods brand loader after it broke took it in for repair new holland paid for all repair.Got a cetified letter about a recall for braces to go from loader to rear housing to stiffin it up since then and 1200hrs later no problems ....

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cutter
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2010-09-07          173823


Nice to hear it was covered! ....

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drcjv.
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2010-09-08          173848


davepost1, after reading your post I called local dealer to find out about recall. They said they could not find anything regarding braces or the bell housing.Would there be any referances on the letter you got that would help me narrow it down for them. Any help would be much appreciated. I would like to prevent the problem if possible.
Thanks
drcjv ....

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BanzaiRunner
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2010-11-16          175162


Just bought a 2000 model TC33D with 840hrs on it and had the dealer install a Bush Hog 1045 loader. After reading this thread I checked the mounting and, sure enough, there are some extremely heavy brackets going from the loader mid mount to the rear axle housings. That was a relief to see...:-) ....

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drcjv.
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2010-11-29          175410


Banzai any way of posting pictures of these braces? I have exhausted every ave. with New holland regarding recalls or service bullitans on this matter. They say there are none and do not know about any braces. Davepost1 did not respond about the letter he recieved. Any help would be much appreciated. ....

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cutter
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2010-11-29          175424


Looks to me that you can see one of them in his profile picture album. ....

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dougbitt
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2010-11-30          175435


If that brace is connected to the mid mount transaxle housing, it's worthless. The snap will always be behind that point as there is nothing supporting the mid mount transaxle housing. I know from experience. :-(
Thankfully my dealer upgraded me to a new tractor for a fair cost to me (slightly more than the fix would have cost) ....

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treeman
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2010-12-06          175558


I just went out to the shed and checked my TC33D and it seems ok yet. I wonder if the broken tractors have Super Steer or reg steering? Do they have Ag Turf or R2 tires? I just bought a 5' Lorenz rear mount snow blower and was thinking of putting on front weights. Why does the manual say to only mount 2 weights? I can get either 60lb or 100lb weights but they still say just 2 of either ones????? Thanks for any replys. :) ....

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hardwood
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2010-12-06          175563


Treeman;
Which manual makes the front weight recomendation, the Lorenz or the New Holland?
I won't over ride any advice given in an owners manual but it seems like an odd restriction. A front loader/rear snowblower are a dream combination and widely used. A front loader weighs much more than two front weights. Humm???
Frank.
....

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treeman
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2010-12-06          175566


hardwood...the operator's manual for the TC33D says that a maximum of two suit case weights should be hung on the front. Either the two 57lb or two of the 100lb weights. If you have Ag tires and super steer, you should only have 1 weight. I would assume that is for tire clearance. The front bumper that I would hang the weight on has three holes in it for the weight bolts. I don't know how wide the weights are. Maybe only 1 or 2 will fit with the hole spacing??? The PN for the weights are 718215036 100lb and 710215016 60lb. ....

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BanzaiRunner
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2010-12-07          175580


Quote:
Originally Posted by drcjv. | view 175410
Banzai any way of posting pictures of these braces? I have exhausted every ave. with New holland regarding recalls or service bullitans on this matter. They say there are none and do not know about any braces. Davepost1 did not respond about the letter he recieved. Any help would be much appreciated.


I'll take some pictures next time I'm out in the barn. In the meantime, here's a diagram that shows how the Bush Hog loader brakets tie the mid mount to the frame in the front and the axle housing in the back.

....

Picture Link

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BanzaiRunner
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2010-12-07          175581


Just for comparison, this is a diagram of the brackets typical for the NH 7308 loader. Several are listed, they all attach in a similar manner to this one.

....

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BanzaiRunner
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2010-12-16          175785


Looks like there's something wrong with the 7308 graphic link I originally posted, here's another one. It looks as if none of the New Holland loader brackets support the problem area (to the rear of the mid-mount) like the Bush Hog loader bracket does. ....

Picture Link

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Murf
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2010-12-16          175788


It's not an error, the link is to a 'hyper script' image which varies depending on your selection, you can't just capture it like that.

Or in less technical terms, you can't get there from here. LOL


Best of luck. ....

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BanzaiRunner
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2010-12-17          175800


Quote:
Originally Posted by Murf | view 175788
It's not an error, the link is to a 'hyper script' image which varies depending on your selection, you can't just capture it like that.Or in less technical terms, you can't get there from here. LOLBest of luck.


Thanks Murf, post edited with correct image link. ....

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Murf
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2010-12-17          175804


Quote:
Originally Posted by BanzaiRunner | view 175800
Thanks Murf, post edited with correct image link.


Wanna bet? LOL

If you want to put up a picture of that you need to do a screen capture, or print it as a .PDF or something then link to that, or put it up as one of your pictures and link to it that way.


Best of luck. ....

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BanzaiRunner
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2010-12-17          175814


This is crazy, it worked this morning and the first graphic of the Bush Hog brackets is from the same site posted the same way! :-)

Thanks for the suggestions, I'll go one of those routes.

NH 7308 LOADER BRACKETS ....

Picture Link

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choltz
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 3 Houston, TX
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2011-01-11          176342


Lawyer,

I just broke my 2003 TC30 while using my 7308 loader with a mower on the back. 347 hours on the tractor. I would be interested in any action you might be trying to take.

....

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TZbroke
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 15 NC
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2011-03-20          177480


As of today, I am the proud owner of a broken TZ25DA. While lifting firewood with 10LA FEL, the frame broke in half. It broke on both sides, directly behind the FEL mounting bracket.

Does anyone else know of a recall related to this issue? ....

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garygford
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 7 Marcy, New York
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2011-08-21          179946


August 21, 2011. My 2005 TC24d New Holland tractor broke in half on level ground. Over weekend, someone drove through my property and across the lawn. I have a collection of fairly large rocks 18" to 24" in diameter that I used this boomer to collect over my 4 acres into a small pile. I decided to pick up the smallest and move the 20 feet to block the way the idiot trespassed on my property. As soon as i got it 8 inches off the ground, it broke in half puncturing the fuel tank. What a mess. Never in my wildest imagination could I conceive this could happen. In the past, I have moved a boulder 3 times as large and moved it 50 yards. I have filled the bucket in the past with so much heavy snow, the back tires lifted off the ground. But, not this time. I am mortified that this could have happened all those other times in the past. The metal looks like the frame is cast iron; not steel. I broke like a potatoe chip. ....

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Art White
Join Date: Jan 2000
Posts: 6881 Waterville New York
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2011-08-23          179986



There is no one straw that broke this tractors back. I've seen them within 80 hours of being repaired with new engines or transmission cases that break again and the tractor still didn't have 400 hours on it.

The manufacturer would not help at all at this point and stresses that the chassis needs to be retightened and checked after use.
For what I've seen TLB will be within the first 500 hours, with just a loader many will get to 1,000.

When people say that heavy wins on tractors I feel this is totally wrong as I'll go for the Quality of design and materials any day!!!

This is not a new problem and we will be seeing more as time goes on.
....

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Chief
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 4285 Southwest MiddleTennessee
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2011-08-23          179988


My experience has with New Holland tractors has not been a good one. This is just one among many problems this brand line of tractors has a history of in my opinion.

Short answer and solution.........DON'T buy New Holland products. ....

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garygford
Join Date: Aug 2011
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2011-08-23          179989


Well, it's like this, I bought the tractor in 2004. Never broke down and never failed me other than a flat tire. A chain is only as good as its weakest link. The weak link and single point of failure is the transfer case. It takes a seriously stupid engineer to have a tractor without a steel frame or to attach the loader arms to the transfer case. Perhaps the weak link is the engineer. ....

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grassgod
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 566 ct
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2011-08-23          179991


I agree Art. And yes, the engineer is definetly at fault on this! ....

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Art White
Join Date: Jan 2000
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2011-08-23          179992



They actually say the newer loader frame has more structual support to over come this then the older ones which is why there is not as many breaking at this point. It is the same chassis as we sell in red although we try to sell them where they will be safe and assist the customers in keeping them together longer.

Chief, good to see you on the job! I know you and I have had a lot of discussions on the green ones! Now I'm selling the Yanmar chassis! Go figure. ....

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DRankin
Join Date: Jan 2000
Posts: 5111 Northern Nevada
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2011-08-23          179993


Yanmar: It would be real hard to find a more reliable tractor.

The day Deere quit selling "green" Yanmars was the day I stopped looking at John Deere tractors. ....

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Chief
Join Date: Jul 2003
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2011-08-23          179996


Quote:
Originally Posted by DRankin | view 179993
Yanmar: It would be real hard to find a more reliable tractor.The day Deere quit selling "green" Yanmars was the day I stopped looking at John Deere tractors.


Hello to both Art and Mark! Been a long time. Hope you guys are doing well. How's life in NY and NV?

Agree with the comments on Yanmar tractors. They are good quality machines that just keep going. Great engines too! ....

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Art White
Join Date: Jan 2000
Posts: 6881 Waterville New York
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2011-08-23          179999



It was about three years ago about the time the Cadet deal came along when we had a exchange student from Japan at our rotary club and she translated a reliability report that was done through the pacific rim of tractors from end users. Kubota was first and Yanmar was second although just like here some thought they were reversed! They only did the top ten but it as still interesting! ....

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grassgod
Join Date: Apr 2004
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2011-08-23          180000


:-) ....

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DRankin
Join Date: Jan 2000
Posts: 5111 Northern Nevada
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2011-08-23          180007


Greetings back at ya Chief.... I see you are still out there causing trouble!!

Art... I had no idea that C/C picked up the Yanmar line.

I went to the web site and was surprised to find the SX3100 appears to be the updated version of my JD4115.... complete right down to the odd-ball 4 bolt pattern on the front wheels!

The sub-compacts look very familiar too. Good to know if I ever need to replace what I have. ....

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kwschumm
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 5764 NW Oregon
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2011-08-23          180008


Quote:
Originally Posted by DRankin | view 179993
Yanmar: It would be real hard to find a more reliable tractor.The day Deere quit selling "green" Yanmars was the day I stopped looking at John Deere tractors.


American engineers could build a great machine if American management would let them. American management is the worst in the world. I argue with management bozos on a daily basis, it's all about shipping product and no defect is bad enough to postpone delivery. ....

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cutter
Join Date: Feb 2000
Posts: 1303 The South Shore of Lake Ontario, New York
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2011-08-23          180009


One of my better moves, trading the NH for a Kubota before the warranty expired. I loved the ergonomics of that tractor but given the issues I had from the day it was delivered decided to trade. Now the Kubota is 10 trouble free years old and still running on the original battery! ....

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TZbroke
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 15 NC
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2011-08-23          180010


I just wanted to catch all up to date on the TZ25DA.
After all was said and done, multiple NH reps looked at the machine and photos of the machine and ststed that there were absolutely no signs of abuse. The warranty was for 200 hours, and at 250 hours the frame was in fact broken! (Really, no kidding) Since the non-moving part survived warranty period, too bad, so sad. Now in all fairness, they did offer me 1000 off a NEW NH tractor, or would be willing to sell me a replacement frame for 1/2 price on parts. The good news is that my local NH rep went way above and beyond and did his best to help me out. He offered a NEW NH at his cost, (AND would give me the 1k NH offered) or a substantial break on the labor to install the 1/2 price frame. I intend to follow up (probably this weekend) with more info, but the nutshell answer is that a twelve thousand dollar machine broke at 250 hours, with no abuse, and NH really didn't care. I now own a RED MF, with way more power and implements than before and could not be happier. I'll be offering my old blue lawn ornament for sale soon for anyone that has skills and time to repair. In the end, I would NEVER buy another NH product, would NOT recommend to anyone who asks that they buy a NH product, but to be very nice to your local dealer that sells any other color. There are some good ones out there, and I found one! ....

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Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999
Posts: 7147 Toronto Area, Ontario, Canada
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2011-08-24          180016


Quote:
Originally Posted by Chief | view 179996
Hello to both Art and Mark!Been a long time.Hope you guys are doing well.How's life in NY and NV?Agree with the comments on Yanmar tractors.They are good quality machines that just keep going.Great engines too!


Hey Chief.

I agree about the Yanmar motors, I've got one in my fishing boat and it's bullet proof! It was a commercial charter boat for the first 15 years of it's life in south Florida waters, in other words it ran 300 days a year!

It still runs like a new engine, fires right up, runs clean with no issues whatsoever.


Best of luck. ....

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Art White
Join Date: Jan 2000
Posts: 6881 Waterville New York
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2011-08-25          180041


Quote:
Originally Posted by TZbroke | view 180010
I just wanted to catch all up to date on the TZ25DA.After all was said and done, multiple NH reps looked at the machine and photos of the machine and ststed that there were absolutely no signs of abuse.The warranty was for 200 hours, and at 250 hours the frame was in fact broken!(Really, no kidding)Since the non-moving part survived warranty period, too bad, so sad.Now in all fairness, they did offer me 1000 off a NEW NH tractor, or would be willing to sell me a replacement frame for 1/2 price on parts.The good news is that my local NH rep went way above and beyond and did his best to help me out.He offered a NEW NH at his cost, (AND would give me the 1k NH offered) or a substantial break on the labor to install the 1/2 price frame.I intend to follow up (probably this weekend) with more info, but the nutshell answer is that a twelve thousand dollar machine broke at 250 hours, with no abuse, and NH really didn't care.I now own a RED MF, with way more power and implements than before and could not be happier.I'll be offering my old blue lawn ornament for sale soon for anyone that has skills and time to repair.In the end, I would NEVER buy another NH product, would NOT recommend to anyone who asks that they buy a NH product, but to be very nice to your local dealer that sells any other color.There are some good ones out there, and I found one!


This is a problem between loader builders and tractor builders. Someone who was not familiar with the chassis of the tractor and although they look like perfect places to add appendages to the tractor they are not solid enough to with stand the load. With what we have seen though the years it does happen with attachments to machines as well as the tractors themselves. It does cause a big mess for CNH because in this case who pays CNH for the breakage? Shibaru or the loader manufacturer?
Many tractor manufacturers trust loader companies to build a good match with good features and good strength to their customers.
It is as hard for them to find good matches as it is for us as a dealer to matching the equipment to the customer and leaves the dealers in the middle.

I'm glad we have options of makes as a dealer! ....

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Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999
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2011-08-25          180043


The problem then gets worse when people with zero engineering knowledge read the all too popular threads on various sites about how to shim or crank up the relief valve on a FEL to make it "stronger" than what it was preset by the factory or dealer installing it set it to.

What they don't realize is that the tractor can only so many pounds of torsional force before what we see in this thread happens.

A FEL is by design, nothing more than a hydraulic lever mechanism, it pushes up, and gravity pushes down.

The other big one is traveling with a load, the shock loading of even a small bump with a load on the FEL creates a shock load of possibly multiple times the actual weight of the load.

All of this contributes to these failures.

In a perfect world, an operator should never travel with a load on the FEL. Only pick it up and place it in something else for transport.


Best of luck. ....

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Art White
Join Date: Jan 2000
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2011-08-25          180044



I try to not get people to run a excessive amount of air in the fronts to help reduce the bumps when loaded.

Many times after people turn up the hydraulics they add more rear weight to offset the additional loader lift!

The problem with this particular post is not from increasing the hydraulics but is a factory design problem. ....

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TZbroke
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 15 NC
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2011-08-25          180048


I have to agree with Art on this one.
There were ZERO modifications to the tractor other than I added a 12v fan to help keep me cool, and plugged that into a NH installed 12v socket. No changes to hydraulics, no changes to valves, etc. The only "Implement I had purchased that wasn;t installed by dealer at time of delivery, (Brand new) was a draw bar to move my trailers with the 3pt hitch. At the time it broke, I had a log in the FEL that was roughly 20 inches long and 10-12 inches in diameter. I literally picked it up and moved it by hand after the NH equipment failed. (According to my manuals, FEL is rated at 800 lbs) I have had way more weight than this log in the FEL before. (I had gravel delivered and spread it over my driveway once)
My wife was only a few feet from the FEL when the frame failed and the FEL dropped. NH's answer, .... Boiled down to "Since she's not dead, not our issue. Sorry the warranty is expired." As far as travelling with weight, I had a neighbor clear a treed area with a big yellow machine, and I was burning off the debris. I was on relatively flat dirt, (flat enough it is now grassed as a yard) and was moving the log about 20 feet. If the tractor is not designed to be able to move at all with this little amount of weight in the FEL, then the transmission should not be able to operate while the FEL is attached. In all seriousness, I understand I shouldn't load it full of gravel and go cruising. That ain't rocket science. But I should be able to move logs that I can pick up by hand, to a burn pile. In all honesty, the problem is a design flaw in that the FEL is bolted to a frame that is to small for a FEL. Add to that, there are two large holes drilled into the frame directly above/below each other to accept the FEL mounting bolts.
I dont know if I can post a link here, but if anyone is interested in seeing the actual damage, let me know. I will be loading those pics to my website this weekend.
As a correction to my previous post, I described badly. I stated local NH rep, and I meant to say local NH dealer. He honestly tried to make things right, but shy of absorbing the cost himself (I didn't even buy from him, unfortunately) his hands were tied. If I am allowed to give kudos at all, I would HIGHLY recommend MIDSOUTH Tractor (Specifically Bill Troxler) to anyone wanting a new machine or service. He does handle more than just NH, so that is the good part! :-) He was the only shining star in my NH nightmare. ....

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kthompson
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 5219 South Carolina
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2011-08-26          180052


Think you have to be a paying membership here to post pictures but as to link think anyone can do that.
....

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hardwood
Join Date: Dec 2002
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2011-08-26          180053


KT:
Hope you are in a safe place with the storm on it's way. Keep safe my friend!!!

Someone in this discussion made the comment that a loader was meant to lift the load and dump it without carrying the load anywhere before dumping it. OK, that got me to thinking.
I have a borrow pit aprox. 750 ft. from the building site that I've brought all the fill for different projects in a bucket full at a time from the pit to whatever the current project may have been. This is a "Very Rough" estimate but to the best of my calculations over a ten year period I've likely brought 7-800 buckets full from the pit about 7-800ft. away comes up about 106 loaded miles. This is with the 4310 W/430 loader W/73 inch bucket. This doesn't count the many many many rocks the poor little thing would barely lift from where they were dug up in the field to a dumping point at the end of the field. So far nothing has broken or bent, I thought this is what a loader was for. Far as I can remember my current tractor loader combo is the third tractor loader/combo. I've owned since 1962. The first two did suffer some injurys from overloading but I doubt the were as well engeneered or matched to the tractor size as my current outfit.
Frank.
Frank. ....

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TZbroke
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 15 NC
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2011-08-26          180054


If anyone is interested in seeing the pictures, they are located at:
http://www.thebellproperties.com/TZ25DA.html
The machine is for sale!

....


Link:   TZ25DA

 
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garygford
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 7 Marcy, New York
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2011-08-26          180056


Awesome pics. Your loader was bolted to a frame alright. Mine appears to be bolted to the transfer housing. I think its time to start thinking about a class action suit. And, to get a government agency involved. There are serious safety issues in play here. As for the comment you shouldn't use the loader to carry anything, then what is the point of having a tractor. In the past, if something was too heavy, the back end would lift up. I would expect that too happen. Not break in half. Hey, NH sells iron weights to put in the back of the tractor. I never bought them but it's clear to me they didn't even believe they could break. So the big question, did they do anything to remedy this on new tractors? I am still waiting for the NH rep to look at my tractor. ....

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TZbroke
Join Date: Mar 2011
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2011-08-26          180057


Definately call NH Corporate. 1-888-290-7377 In addition, try to get your local dealer on your side. In all honesty, if the local dealer feels it was not some "User error", they have the ability to negotiate on your behalf. As for the weight, in all honesty, if whatever we are picking up is too heavy, the hydraulics wont lift it. I tried some things that were probably beyyond what it should do, and the FEL simply would not go up. That is exactly what the design is made for. Now I also understand that it can lift 800 lbs, but I shouldn't go cruising over bumps with that weight in it. It sounds like in both of our cases, that was NOT the issue, so it really is a design flaw with the tractor. A VERY POTENTIALLY FATAL design flaw. My wife was literally, feet from the FEL when the frame broke. Even empty, that can kill. I am not an engineer by any stretch, but I'm not an idiot either. If you have (in my case) an ability to lift 800 punds, and that is at the end of the FEL that has 4-5 feet of "arms" to attach it, you have some serious leverage at the pivot point. The frame looks too small for that to begin with, and much more of a flaw if you drill two big holes inline with each other. I did find a thread way back about there being an issue with torque on these bolts. Since my was bought with FEL installed, it is a NH issue no matter what. Whether dealer or factory, is (in all fairness to consumer) irrelevant. ....

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kthompson
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2011-08-26          180060


Frank, thank you. We are very safe. Wind is mostly summer breeze. Not saying there is nothing else like it but ran off of a tropical storm come in bands. You can go from no ran to buckets pouring on you in seconds. I expect flash flooding to be the biggest issue here unless it moves and they do move.

TZbroke, yep it certainly is broken. No doubt they are shocked and are certain those bolt holes did not create a weak line on the frame. ....

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shenee
Join Date: Oct 2011
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2011-10-11          180807


I have a New Holland TC33d 2002 with 520 hrs. on it.It Broke in half in June and I called New Holland and the Ballless coward rep. woundn't even come out to look at it. he called the dealer and told him it was out of waranty.I told New Holland at the very least they should give the parts at cost. Ha Ha what a waste of time. Buy blue and now I got the BLUES.I am buying Green and Yellow now.I am telling anyone who is thinking of buying New Holland don't do it, some of my friends who have a blue one have second thoughts. (Ford Junk.)I am using it as a lawn ornament. ....

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garygford
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2011-10-12          180814


My TC24D is a 2003 and as I reported this past August. I called my dealer, Clinton Tractor, in NY. He arranged for a NH rep to come look at the tractor. I bought the tractor new 7 years ago and is outside the warranty. They identified a potential cause for my failure as being loose bolts on the loader to transfer case connection. However, they came prepared to make me an offer. They agreed to split the cost of the repair 3 ways, NH, Clinton Tractor, and myself. I could see there was room for negotiating but I also believe this was fair. I accepted and it only cost me $1117. As I look back over the past 7 years, this little 24 horse tractor (I have only 4 acres), dug up a boulder the size of a small desk and moved it 50 yards, I moved a 36" diameter tree trunk to the top of a nearby road, nearly 200 yards. I picked up my 2003 Ford Windstar by the trailer hitch and pushed it up a hill of slush in the winter about 50 yards(my driveway was a mess; couldn't get out). The point is, this tractor was a beast; albiet a tiny beast by comparison. I will be more dilligent in inspecting the vehicle before use in the future. I doubt I will hold back doing work on my land. Because of their support, I am in the market for a Utility vehicle. It will be New Holland and it will be from Clinton Tractor. ....

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cgustafs
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2011-12-28          181789


Mine broke today with 14la loader on but I bought as a used machine. If anyone does start class action, count me in. ....

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TZbroke
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 15 NC
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2011-12-28          181799


cgustafs,
Which tractor was it. I see the 14la, so I am thinking smaller one (mine was TZ25DA). Can you give us any specifics on what/how it broke?
I am finding more and more folks who are running into this issue. ....

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garygford
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2011-12-28          181801


On the TC24...the loader is bolted to the transfer case. If the bolts are loose, an uneven load or jolt will cause the transfer case to shatter like glass; its case metal. The use of case metal is probably the design fault. For 7 years, I moved mountains with my tractor, dug up small boulders (some so large they did not fit in loader), and scooped up nearly 7 ft tall piles of snow. Never had a problem. Then it broke and the dealer and the factory repaired it at cost and we split it 3 ways. I bought mine new, it was 7 years old, and I didn't know the bolts were loose including 1 missing. This was a fair settlement. The downside is that it can happen again. I inspect the 4 bolts now when I get into the tractor. ....

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cutter
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2011-12-28          181802


This is why I prefer the heavy steel frame as opposed to the old style of bolting castings together to form the backbone. ....

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garygford
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2011-12-28          181803


NH just changed factories. Maybe their new tractors will have steel frames. New factory is in South Korea. ....

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cutter
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2011-12-28          181805


That's a joke right?! LOL ....

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3024246902
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2012-05-12          183516


I also have one. Not sure exactly of year..maybe 99. Mine broke in half as well. I have a front end loader on it and a hoe on back. I too thought about calling a NH rep, but from what I see, wont do much good ????? Its sickening to say the least. Anyone got any ideas, I have m ine apart, havent ordered housing yet. Anyone ever weld one successfully ?? Wonder if it can be.... Jerry ....

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treeman
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2012-05-13          183523


Is the case cast iron or cast aluminum or what? Please show a picture of it when you can. thanks ....

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Murf
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2012-05-14          183531


Quote:
Originally Posted by 3024246902 | view 183516
Anyone ever weld one successfully ?? Wonder if it can be.... Jerry


Based on the necessary tolerances between the machined internal surfaces that line up the various internal components, I'd say welding would be likely be more money than buying the new case would be.

Bear in mind, unlike a car there's no drive shaft with slip joints and universal joints that can take up or make up for any misalignment between the transmission and rear end. The engine, transmission and rear differential / rear axle are basically a single unit. There is very close tolerances between them all.


Best of luck. ....

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Art White
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2012-06-08          183813



To weld the cast without additional support is a wase of time. We have taken them in welded with and without support but we have only sent them to auctions out of the area so we have no real idea as to how well they hold up. They have broken the engine ears off that bolt to the transmission as well as broken the front casting to the tansmission. It seems that with backhoe's the life is less then 500 hours and with just a loader about 1,000 hours from what we have seen with the trade-ins we have had. ....

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craigs
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2012-07-13          184247


I have a TC33D New Holland Tractor 2003, that broke in half mine has a factory Ford loader on it, I never recieved a recall letter and my dealer just toldme there was no recall., is there any way you can send me a copy of this recall. via, fax, email or mail. also you may call me
Craig (717) 944-9141 I did contact corporate today, they said they will get back to me next week. ....

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3024246902
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2012-07-13          184248


I too have a TC33D with a 7308 dealer installed loader . Mine broke in half right around and on top of clutch housing. Any remedy for you or tough stuff ??? Jerry Hil in Delaware. ....

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3024246902
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2012-07-13          184249


mine too, any relief ?? 302-393-4154 jerry hill in delaware. Split in 2 right behind clutch housing, literally...TC33D with 7308 dealer installed loader .. ....

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DocRMB
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2012-07-16          184290


Father -in-law moving a loose, but large rock by skidding it and picked it up to help slide it and the frame popped in half just behind the front end loader attachment. ....

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TZbroke
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2012-07-17          184299


There are a growing number of us who have had NH tractors break in half. NH is not "making it right". I personally have switched to MF (Love the RED) and am loving life. If NH wont make a better product (that doesn't break when it shouldn't) and won't do the right thing if something does happen, the only remaining options seem to be class action or buy a different color until NH goes away.
I don't by any means mean to say we shouldn't try to help each other here, but if you do switch colors, let NH know you did, and why. ....

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Murf
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2012-07-17          184300


I think if you do a little reading you'll see there's plenty of CUT's that broke that way, Deere for instance had a real bad time with them for while, probably far more of them broke than NH's did.


Best of luck. ....

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cutter
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2012-07-19          184345


Similar to most products, as sales increase, the more problems you hear of. They may have a great record, say a .1% failure rate, but if they sell a million units that leaves 100 pizzed off people.

....

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abolin
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2012-09-21          184972


im new on here looking for answers i got a 1999 tc33d with loader and back hoe abot 4yr ago it broke the bell housing and a big chunk out of eng block i got it all fixed. yesterday i was backdragging som dirt it broke the bell housing again anybody have any fixes for this ....

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Art White
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2012-09-25          185008


Quote:
Originally Posted by abolin | view 184972
im new on here looking for answers i got a 1999 tc33d with loader and back hoe abot 4yr ago it broke the bell housing and a big chunk out of eng block i got it all fixed. yesterdayi was backdragging som dirt it broke the bell housing again anybody have any fixes for this


Do you have the 7308 loader? ....

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kthompson
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2012-09-25          185011


I agree with comments on all brands but boy this sure would cause me doubt to NH if looking for tractor today. At same time have nephew who has NH my guess about same size and I have used it myself and it was great to operate but was moving loose dirt and he mostly uses for moving things for his horses so light life.

Guess to me it would seem a brand might want to post a suggestion on such an issue even if their honest research pointed totally to abuse. At least might help prevent another. ....

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abolin
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2012-09-25          185014


yes it is a 7308 loader has not been modifyed ....

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TZbroke
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2012-09-30          185055


While I agree with Cutter's theory to a point, we also need to realize that the exact same issue keeps recurring. If the same thing happens often enough, it sooner or later becomes obvious. Just ask Ford about that happening to their Pinto.
A NH is kind of like breaking your pinky toe on the corner of the coffee table. You can limp around and treat it gingerly and get by, just don't do any real work!

Even worse than NH being an inferior product, their lack of standing behind product their turned my brand into red. I love my red, and have never looked back. I am now up to 11 implements for my MF1533 and it works hard.

Abolin, Having played that game before (NH frame game)and losing, the best thing you can do is change the color. Even if you fix again, you already proved that it will repeat. I really feel bad that you got nailed twice though! ....

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magnum1990
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2013-01-29          186088


WOW!!!! I just finished reading the entire thread. I feel so sorry for all you guys! I would be soooooooooooB.S.! New Holland should have some kind of mitigation program corporate-wide that is not up to the individual reps to determine who gets what, if anything at all. Back in 2004, I was seriously looking at New Holland. I went with Cub Cadet. But, I was real close to pulling the trigger on a NH. I got lucky. I sure hope all of you that suffered getting split asunder ended up in a good place. :-)
For myself, I won't EVER buy a New Holland product; if for no other reason than to support your cause in protest by withholding my money. Good Luck all. ....

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hardwood
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2013-01-29          186089


The first compact tractor I ever sat on was a Ford/NH. We used to drive past a ford/NH dealership quite often that had a nice display of their compacts out front that caught my eye. About that same time Deere came out with their 4000 series, I ended up buying a Deere 4300 W/430 loader. I later traded the 4300 for a 4310 and another 430 loader. a few minor problems, mostly cosmetic, like little plastic hood latch do-dads that break now and then, but nothing to the tune of a frame break, sure glad I chose the green one.

Frank. ....

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yooperpete
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2013-01-30          186094


I was under the impression that the "Red" CNH tractors were the same as their "Blue" brothern with the exception of paint and a few minor issues. But,"Red" tractors don't seem to break in half or atleast I haven't heard about them.

Are they completely different? ....

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Art White
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2013-01-30          186095



I believe that the difference was the loader mounting used as well as the use of the tractor and the numbers sold.
For many of us Red tractor dealers we had lost our compact tractor line-up from Case several times at this point. Do to the hardships many of us went to brands we had more control of with consistancy in service and parts for our customers for the long haul not just for the sake of having something to sell. Some made the the choice of not selling any compacts depending on their location and markets. ....

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TZbroke
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2013-02-07          186163


Art is a long time poster here, and has a lot of credibility. Please don't read this in any way as to discount that. But if I read it correctly, he doesn't do NH anymore either.

In the end, there are a lot of folks that had NH break in half and NH said "too bad, so sad". Shy of a Mass Action (which means everyone gets about 4 bucks), the only way to resolve is to warn others what we encountered.
Forgive me, if I am stepping out of bounds, but the whole point of sharing information with other tractor buyers is to help each other make good decisions.
Nutshell answer, a lot of NH pieces of "equipment" break in half and NH does not make it right. If you are looking to buy a tractor, factor that history into your decision. If you buy blue, you will be blue! No matter what color they paint it, if it is NH, you can read their history here.
The best reference I can give NH, is that I didn't buy more of their implements before the main piece broke in half. That helped a lot since I now have over 12 implements, and all are "NOT BLUE".

P.S. Used my RED MF to load both halves of the old blue piece of scrap metal into a trailer. Loving my RED machine. I use it weekly in addition to a bobcat and have never regretted changing colors.

To Magnum: If everyone was as concentious as you, NH would change, or simply fade away! Kudos to you!!!
....

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treeman
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2013-02-07          186164


I have only heard of ONE TZ breaking in half so that is far from a epidemic. ....

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Art White
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2013-02-23          186264



Yooper we do still sell some red compacts when people have a need for that color.

We have had several that we have taken in trade in blue that were broken.
It depends on the use of the tractor as to it's issues with breaking. the units with backhoes are the soonest to break and the ones with loaders, normally you just double the amount of hours. One that is just running around the yard with a belly mower, while those might never break.

the best you can do if you do own one is to make sure all bolts are tight on the loader as well as the chassis!!! ....

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taogden
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2013-02-23          186271


TBN has multiple accounts of this happening as well as other sites and other on line blogs. As a rule, I am cautious of blogs because they can be abused so easily. But with that many accounts of the same thing, it was why I bought Kubota when I bought a small tractor especially as I wanted a small FEL to work with. To much money to risk on a tool, for me it would be like buying a hammer that couldn't pull nails.
Sorry for the bad news ....

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3024246902
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2013-02-23          186277


I too , 7308 dealer installed loader, frame in half ...anyone any luck with NH taking responsibilty for the design of tractor w/loader assy.? ....

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DennisCTB
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2014-10-30          191314


Bump this thread to the top. ....

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jackiep
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2015-10-31          193962


deleted, duplicate.. ....

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jackiep
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2015-10-31          193963


I have a 2002 TC33D and the frame broke this week in fact the motor case broke on both sides also. We also have been told that this is not under warranty. Did New Holland do anything about this for you. No we did not use attachments that were over specs for this model. ....

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branch
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2015-11-01          193996


Quote:
Originally Posted by cutter | view 184345
Similar to most products, as sales increase, the more problems you hear of. They may have a great record, say a .1% failure rate, but if they sell a million units that leaves 100 pizzed off people.




If it was your tractor that broke you would feel different. ....

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branch
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2015-11-01          193997


Quote:
Originally Posted by 3024246902 | view 186277
I too , 7308 dealer installed loader, frame in half ...anyone any luck with NH taking responsibilty for the design of tractor w/loader assy.?




I was only insulted by NH. Moved on to another brand. ....

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kthompson
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2015-11-02          193999


I read a good bit of this thread when it was on going and have reread a few pages this morning due to recent postings.
Noticed two things here, a few of those who were in the thread I do not see here any longer, miss them. Second was there every any conclusion reached in this issue? I have a friend who had a NH break I think the same, no idea if same model or not. casting as one said here needed to be cut and examined

Has there been any real report on this? ....

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cutter
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2015-11-03          194005


Quote:
Originally Posted by branch | view 193996
If it was your tractor that broke you would feel different.


Just how do you know how I feel about it? My statement reflects reality, it has nothing to do with how I "feel". On the other hand, I traded my NH Boomer for a Kubota due to a plethora of warranty issues prior to that warranty expiring. ....

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jackiep
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2015-12-24          194245


Yes same problem. Everyone asked where it broke? Frame broke holding engine block and then block breaks if you are not aware it is going. Bad frame design. Paid to have it redesigned and welded as well as the engine block and then of course we had to pull it all apart to have that done.
....

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46bugs
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2016-09-01          195723


Like I have said before New Holland makes Junk.I will never own another one of N.H. Machines. ....

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Art White
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2016-09-03          195733



The tractor was designed by one company, another built the loader. They were both sold by another company and they are the ones who take the fall for short comings from the other two. It is a not uncommon as it is rare to find a company that can build everything.
The problems don't end there with the equipment as it ages and might make it though a normal life. Companies change and the manufacturers change, as the machines break and ties to the old companies are changed the parts for them often twenty years later, some less become hard to get. Sometimes it's do to small market share and low production numbers or the manufacturer no longer exists.

It happens with tractors, as well as all the attachments and on an every day note, even in the auto industry! ....

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TZbroke
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2016-09-03          195734


While I agree with you that a single company may not have built all of the parts, a single company sold it and creates their own reputation. A single company also refused to "make things right" when their product failed. If Wonder Bread had a bad batch of flour that they bought from a vendor, are they absolved of the responsibility of recalling the bread? Did Chipotles have any right to say that people getting sick & almost dying after eating at their restaurants isn't their problem? If NH cannot raise their standards to have their vendors build parts that don't break when they shouldn't, then NH needs to either make it right, or have the reputation that they do.
You are a very knowledgeable person on here, and your opinion is highly respected, but in this case NH has consistently failed to provide a quality product, or back their product as consumers feel like they should, yet they are still willing to take the profits from sales. That defines "REPUTATION". Sadly NH has a bad one, at least among people that bought their stuff. ....

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46bugs
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2016-09-03          195735


I have said this before ,I think New Holland Tractor are Junk as they came off the Assemble Line.
I just spent $12,500.00 on getting a 2006 N.H. Farm Tractor Transmission fixed on a TN60-A a 60 H.P Tractor and this will be the last one I will ever own. They are all Junk New Holland makes Junk,Ford use to be a Good Tractor and they was made good. I have owned several of them other then a battery or Tires Nothing major ever happen . But New Holland is JUNK
I will but Massey -Ferguson Next Time. I think They are better then N.H.and John Deere and John Deere is now made in China and not a real John Deere oh yes they are painted Green and yellow but other then That they are yarmar Tractors ,just more Junk. Just like Wal-Marts that only has Junk to sell new . ....

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DennisCTB
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2016-09-03          195737


Quote:
Originally Posted by TZbroke | view 195734
While I agree with you that a single company may not have built all of the parts.....You are a very knowledgeable person on here, and your opinion is highly respected, but in this case NH has consistently failed to provide a quality product.....


TZ,

The point Art is trying to make is NOT opposed to your view he is trying to make a statement in SUPPORT of your position.

Art is A Kubota dealer. Kubota is one of the few companies that actually makes and supports as much of the tractor as possible. Art has repeatedly made this point for years and years, he is no fan of New Holland he is not defending them, he is pointing out that when key components are outsourced and the company itself changes ownership, reliability will suffer. That is why buying third tier machines is an adventure that can be costly and vastly out cost in the long run the small premium for higher rated equipment. ....

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TZbroke
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2016-09-03          195738


I may have misunderstood his point then, and offer apologies to Art.
I've not owned a Kubota, so I can't express a valid opinion on them. I now own a Massey Ferguson, and absolutely love it!
Almost 700 hours now, and the only thing that has broken is a hood latch.
I'll continue to bust on NH to all of my friends and peers for two reasons. One - They shafted me and the only vote is get is where I spend my dollar and I'd like them to go out of business, and Two - I don't anyone else to go through what I did.
Sorry Art, and thanks Dennis! ....

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Art White
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Posts: 6881 Waterville New York
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2016-09-07          195754



For the believe it or not, I also sell the CNH tractors and yes we were very aware of the issues. I was very fortunate that our customers take our advise and we had very limited failures to deal with on those tractors. We were not limited to selling them as "tractors are all the same". We actually took the blue in trade but not for the red but orange and we were able to find wholesalers that wanted them. For all that we do I joke that with the different name brands we have sold it makes about 17 with different labels. I like people who are proud enough of what they do they only put their name on it! ....

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New Holland TC33D Tractor Frame broke in Half

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Art White
Join Date: Jan 2000
Posts: 6881 Waterville New York
TractorPoint Premium Member -- 5 Tractors = Very Frequent Poster  View my Photos  Pics

2016-09-07          195755



For the believe it or not, I also sell the CNH tractors and yes we were very aware of the issues. I was very fortunate that our customers take our advise and we had very limited failures to deal with on those tractors. We were not limited to selling them as "tractors are all the same". We actually took the blue in trade but not for the red but orange and we were able to find wholesalers that wanted them. For all that we do I joke that with the different name brands we have sold it makes about 17 with different labels. I like people who are proud enough of what they do they only put their name on it! ....

Reply to | Quote Post Reply to PostQuote Reply | Add PhotoAdd Photo



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