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America The Greatest Country on Earth

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agriman
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 23 TN
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2006-02-05          124117


This is the greatest county on earth. We have our problems but, it only takes one trip to a third would county to make a person realize just how lucky we are to live in America.

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unit5alive
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 250 Latrobe Pa
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2006-05-07          129024


I'll 2nd the above! ....

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DeTwang
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 268 Shingletown, Ca. (Near Redding)
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2006-05-07          129026


Here! Here!!! We've got some work to do though to make sure it stays that way...there are many in this country who are being hoodwinked into believing we are the scourge of the earth.....

We have soooo much here it's ridiculous....no people in history have 'ever' enjoyed the health, beauty, freedom, relative peace, and abundance that God has blessed us with..... ....

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Peters
Join Date: Feb 2002
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2006-05-07          129050


I guess it depends how you rate things. I have lived and worked in 5 in the top 20, 3 in the top ten. From what I know I can not argue with the rating below.
If you term luckiest, yes we are the luckiest nation on earth. We have been given the most resources of any nation on earth. ....


Link:   Human Developement index

 
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DRankin
Join Date: Jan 2000
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2006-05-08          129072


USA.... #10? I don't think so!

But then this is the same UN that put Iran in charge of sanctioning itself and took billions in graft from Saddam Hussein.

Still haven't seen any heads roll on that one.

What do you wanna bet that if the USA banned/confiscated all firearms that we wouldn't move to the top of the UN's "livability" list?

Any Takers? ....

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duke8444
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 71 Bowling Green, KY 42103
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2006-05-08          129073


What a joke!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I will keep this country and my guns. ....

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DenisS
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 367 NJ
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2006-05-08          129084


Luxembourg at # 6?! Four spots over the US??! That's not even a country! I could probably spit over the whole "country" of Luxemburg standing in France and spitting into Germany. Or the other way around. I don't know which one of them I want to spit at more.

duke, you're right - what a joke. ....

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Iowafun
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 955 Central Iowa
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2006-05-08          129086


Actually, the rankings do make some valid points. It's a quality of life index that looks at all residents. Most of the countries that beat the US have better social welfare programs than the US. Hence, the quality of life for low-income, disabled or unemployed citizens is better than in the US. They also lack the slums the US has in major metro areas.

Of course, they also lack some of the seriously crowded metro areas we do. On the other hand, they are much more taxed than we are to pay for it all.

Ireland's economy is smoking right now. They've done a wondeful job of turning it into a business center. Beautiful country too. Canada has free health care for everyone including the poorest of the poor. They also have all that land and much less people that us. Also a much higher tax rate. SO the rich have a bit less, but the poor have a lot more. Better overall average quality of life.

Yes we in the US do have it good. But not as good as it was during Reagan's era or in the 60's. I'm writing this as I sit here waiting for the HR guy to come around and tell me my employment fate. Do I have a job with the company that bought us? Do I not? Do they want me in a transitional role and then I'm unemployed? The US isn't as good as it used to be. We are slipping boys. The rankings are pretty accurate. ....

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wingwiper
Join Date: Jun 2004
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2006-05-08          129090


All the countries rate better than the U.S. because they send their criminals, bums and unskilled people to hear where they March in our streets, demand their rights and demand that they be recognized as U.S. citizens.
If anything maybe we should give all of them illegal bums the survey to show them that they are in the WRONG country.
Think it will work? ....

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DenisS
Join Date: May 2006
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2006-05-08          129091


US is # 1 because you can be a bum here if you want to; you have a God given right to be a bum. You can be a billionaire if you educate yourself and have business skills. You can do whatever you damn please. Most of the countries on that list are socialist outfits where you're always gonna be avarage.

And by the way, the only reason they exist is because us dumb ol' Americans have been stupid enough to spend more on their defense than they spend on their entire domestic programs.

Though our liberties are slipping away, I'll take my freedoms ahead of free healthcare or right-to-work or whatever socialist crutches those countries are famous for. I say, we're # 1.

P.S. I know none of you here are saying we're inferior to thouse countries but I had to have my rant anyway ;) ....

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brokenarrow
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 1288 Wisconsin
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2006-05-08          129108


I heard the term "Free Health Care" Twice in this thread.
Would the Canadian Folks here please chime in? Set the record straight on how "free" health care is. Unless things have changed in 20 years, free really wasnt free when your paying 15% sales tax, I believe employers had certain things they needed to meet. Murf, how does that work?
BTW, In the states, we also have a different tax rate for higher earners. The wife and I entered the higher bracket one year, Man I dont ever want to do that again.
I entered it by a measely 2K and it cost me roughly 7-8k (a total guess, I never actually sat down and figured it out to the dollar).

Ill Take America along with freedom of which hospital and which doctor I want to see over any country (Unless I had Murf as a father-in-law) Then I could turn into a true Canadian! LOL
Could I use the boat this weekend? PA! ....

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DRankin
Join Date: Jan 2000
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2006-05-08          129114


The media has reported stories about the long waits for the "free" health care in Canada.

Apparently, even people with potentially life threatening illnesses have to wait several months for surgery. Many give up and come south to the USA and pay for the surgery they need.

One of problems with such government mandated health plans enters the picture when they try to make highly trained doctors work for blue collar wages. The good ones simply "vote with their feet" to quote Ronald Reagan. ....

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Iowafun
Join Date: Jul 2004
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2006-05-09          129147


My point in arguing against the US was to point out what the rankings were based on. In that context, we are #10. Would I give up what I have? No thanks. For those who work hard, we do have it good.

But if you are poor or live in a very rural and poor area, you do have it bad. You can see it in the infant survival rates. The US is not good in infant survival rates and it's due to the lack of health care for the poor and the very rural poor. It is what it is. We have it very good, but to counter it, some have it pretty bad. ....

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ncrunch32
Join Date: Dec 2003
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2006-05-09          129148


I recently had a Canadian next door neighbor who opted to go back to Canada (couple of years ago). He was not happy with his rate of promotion here - also that health care not free - and also that college costs for his young son would be astronomical here. He said it might take a while to have a sickness tended to in Canada - but it was free, also that college education was free. I offer no point of view here - just fact. I suppose he thought the money he would make here would more than offset the costs, but in the end he figured life would be better in Canada. ....

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wingwiper
Join Date: Jun 2004
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2006-05-09          129161


Ncrunch

So would a flat rate paid person work as hard as a person who earns more from merit and reputation of their performance? I think I will take a U.S. doctor any day.
College? well you get what you pay for and if people are standing in line to attend your school and you raise the costs and they still stand in line and you have a reputation for placing students in high paying jobs, I rather pay for the education. Anyone can sit in a classroom for four years and get a degree not everyone gets an education.
Free Enterprise has it merits and its downfalls, but Socialism has never appealed to me at all. ....

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ncrunch32
Join Date: Dec 2003
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2006-05-09          129162


Wingwiper, I have no disagreement. But I don't think there are perfect systems. In the final analysis there are wealthy and poor people in socialistic systems and democratic systems. Maybe things are just a matter of degree. When you pay 33% of your income in the US in taxes I might call that socialism. Do we all get the services we should for the taxes we pay? Probably not since money gets siphoned off every time there is a transaction. But then again - since we are not a socialist society - I guess we should expect no services and treat these taxes as theft. ....

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wingwiper
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2006-05-09          129165


NC

I was being sarcastic and not aiming at you, trying tomake apoint.
33.3% in taxes to live here andhave the roads to travel on, Schools, choices in te millions, Fire depts, Police depts, Libraries, Programs to help when you are down on your Luck, Veterans Homes, some of the best hospitals and research centers in the World, Space Program where much of the World's Technology comes from, a State and a Federal Military that will not only repair your roads during floods and be there to help during Hurricanes and other diasters but also stands ready to protect and to serve us, Mass Transit, and on and on. We have what most countries wouldn't even know how to dream about. I'll pay the 33.3% gladly.
I'll take the Good Ole U.S. of A over Canada or any other country in the world. We are envied by many and they will try and tell you how bad we have it, before you judge go to a third world country see the sick, the unemployed, the poverty the lack of Spirit in the eyes.
God Bless the U.S. ....

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Chief
Join Date: Jul 2003
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2006-05-09          129170


ncrunch and wingwiper..........let me clue you in............... we don't pay 33.3% in taxes............ it is more along the lines of 50% to 75% depending upon individual circumstances. 33.3% is an outrage and the reality of the real numbers is criminal and immoral! Our country may be the best out there but in context with what our constitution mandates and what actually occurs and in comparison to other countries; it nothing to be thumping our collective and preverbian chests about. Since FDR, out nation has deteriorated and slid into what has now become a liberal socialist republic. It is no longer the constitutional democratic representative republic the found fathers created. ....

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ncrunch32
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2006-05-09          129171


Chief, I agree that these taxes are so high that we are no different from a socialist country. The danger we run is that we soon may not be the best country that is out there with this corruption and siphoning off of the productive worker's earnings. ....

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wingwiper
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2006-05-10          129179


Chief

What we pay in taxes today, thanks to Reagan and Bush is far less than what I use to pay. At least on the federal Level.
Up until about 1982 there was a tax increase on your pay for every $50 earned. You could actaully get a Payraise and take home LESS money, I did a couple of times. President Regan forced a Bill thru that SIMPLIFIED the tax system. Now there are only Three brackets and they are much further spaced. I pay a Helluva lot less in Federal Taxes than I did before.
As far as State and Local Taxes, well as long as we demand for more and more programs and for the Government to become an Insurance Agency, we will be paying more in Taxes. I watched last night where there are 11 million Millionaire households in the U.S. now. Grant it, if you consider the buying power of today versus that of 1983, a Million isn't really that much any more. But stay with me here. After the Reagan Simplified Tax Bill and Min wages were $3.35 per hour, now compare that today and one site claims that the minimum wage has 33% less buying power than in early 80s.
A quick sample of this is simple. Houses in your area sold for how much in 1982? Automobiles? food? clothing etc? What was your monthly pay? your total basic bills? the percentage. If you take the time to do some calculations, the million dollars of todays is about equal to about $400,000 of 24 years ago.
Now my point, take the Tax liability of the million dollar earnings today and it is far less than 24 years ago, based on buying power and that is the real index.
That is what is nice about debt... your debt actually decreases in value and as your earnings adjust, the debt ratio drops. Banks use Interest to offset this and term to ensure profitbility.
You and I have control over the Tax rates for State and Local Govt. Now calculate those 14 million illegals, leeching into OUR Education system, Health Care and Housing etc. Unless you are profiting from hiring Illegals, it is costing you and I money, for the companies who hire they save in wages and libilities and that offsets the cost taken out of their taxes. Our taxes could be alot less if we didn't have to pay for deadheads leeching on our system.
....

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Chief
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2006-05-10          129182


Still doesn't change the fact that we pay around 50% to 75% of our earnings in taxes.

SIMPLIFIED????????????? Hah!!!!!!!!!!! ;O) You missed your calling as a comedian wingwiper. ....

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DenisS
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2006-05-10          129183


One thing that makes the US stand head and shoulders above the rest of the world is that we're the last socially conservative country in the Christian world. Not the whole country, but a major part of it. I take pride in the fact that abortion and homosexuality are topics of debate here in the US instead of accepted reality like in the rest of the Western countries. I like the fact that individuals like Jim Dobson and Pat Buchanan have a singificant following here in the US, whereas they'd be locked up for "hate speach" in most of the "enlightened" western world. I agree, our taxes are through the roof and the government is growing more oppressive every year, but I think we have a fighting chance here to make things right again; I don't see that possibility for the rest of the West. ....

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ncrunch32
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2006-05-10          129184


Wingwiper - you make this too complicated. To understand if you are better off just check whether your income has risen faster or slower than the consumer price index (CPI). I think most private enterprise employees are doing worse than the CPI lately. And taxes are skyrocketing because of pork barrel projects and a huge governmental infrstructure that must be supported at constant or increasing growth rates (5%+).

When local taxes are so high that they are equivalent to holding a mortgage on your home then something is wrong. When people have to leave their homes or take windows out to reduce taxes then something is wrong. ....

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wingwiper
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2006-05-10          129187


Chief

Yes! SIMPLIFIED, the Federal Tax is much more SIMPLIFIED than what it was pre 1982.
YES! you will be working into June this year to eliminate your Tax burden, but that TAX burden is NOT the result of Federal Govt but more over Local and State. It is the accumulation of Sales Taxes, Payroll taxes, property taxes, Fuel Tax, consumtion taxes, sin taxes etc. We the comsumer has set the demands. Look at 9-11, Jesus, suddenly the Government was leaned on to become an Insurance agent and pay people for their losses. Say WHAT? People had their own Insurances and so didn't the Buildings, why was Government called upon at all? Who foots the bill? Now look at Katrina and why again was the Government called upon? We want government to feed us, protect us, help us, bail us out, lead us, think for us and then when we get the Bills we complain? No! Chief I am NOT trying to be funny nor am I trying to be a comedian, people get what they ask for.
Hillary Clinton may run for Presiden, after her husband sold us out to China, missing FBI Files, S&L Scandals, Loans, Rapes, dozens of Dead people and questionable circumstances, Pardon gates, Chinese in the White House, Chinese stealing Top Secrets in Los Alamos and trashing the White House and on and on we even have people who will support the witch. You have Ted kennedy a man who commited a Murder in every sense who gets re-elected term after term. Why? because too many of us just sit on our asses waiting for someone else to find the problems, fix them, write the letters, form the demostrations, speak out, vote and whatever else it would take to make the changes.
60% of this Nation feel NO need to Vote, 60% and then there is belly-aching for the entire term of the next Administration and yet 60% do NOT VOTE. I'll bet out of the 40% that do, you have 20% who can't read well, understand English, know who they are really voting for, know who the Current Senators of their state are. We have problems and it sure is not with Government it is with US. We get what we deserve.
Because this Nation has formed a 'I don't care' attitude, government has gotten longer reins and no one to really tug on them. We have abuses and we have people in Office who seek power. Look at the Mayor of N.O. talk about a total waste of flesh and blood. He is as worthless as tits on a Bull, but he was great at leading the charge of putting the blame on the Bush administration.
We need to Vote, ALL of us, for christs sake people in Iraq were being killed while standing in the voting lines and we sit in our living rooms bitching because we don't like something and then we get up and grab another Beer or switch the channel.
Cheif I really am not trying to be funny and have never been more serious, the Solutions start with you and me. ....

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DenisS
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2006-05-10          129188


wingwiper quote 1
"out of the 40% that do [vote], you have 20% who can't read well, understand English, know who they are really voting for, know who the Current Senators of their state are."

wingwiper qoute 2
"We get what we deserve."

Wingwiper, I agree with your sentiments entirely, but how is it that I'm responsible for the ignoramuses described above and have to bear the consequences of their stupidity? If you're after a more intelligent electorate, then we need to get rid of the "equal rights" amendment, "women suffrage amendment" and the "18 as voting age amendment" and let educated mature rational people make decision on running the country. I would actually propose re-instituting landholder qualifications for voting rights. Man, 1790s were THE times!

....

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wingwiper
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2006-05-10          129189


NC

Nothing personnal, but people thought Iraq had no chance in making it, because they could only think like Tribes and not as a Nation, Hell, I think they may be better off than us in some aspects. Here in America we worry more about ourselves and think about ourselves and never ask how we are as a Nation, how far has this Nation gone, what has this nation achieved? we think as Individuals and not as a Nation at least the Itaqis think as tribes.
I have Three daughters, one is still in school and two are seeking their dreams, BOTH have attended colleges of their choice. My wife has a car, I have a car, two of my kids have cars. I have 3 JD Tractors, One Snow Mobile and toys. I live where I want, I work where I want to, I do what I want. I hear planes fly over head and I go about my daily business because I know some of those planes are military and they are OURS. I look at the young Americans and what the Navy has to offer them and I look at our fleets as compared to 100 years ago. I look at our Space Advancements, our Medical Achievements. damn not too many years ago I remember when Dr Barnard did the first heart transplant and the patient lived for about 30 days, I know a guy down the road who had a heart transpalnt 16 years ago. I look at that Lady who just had a 160 pound tumor removed or the lady who just had a New face. I look at the absenece of so many deseases that use to plague us. I look at where we are today and I think it has been worth every penny. Look at what we are doing right now, no stamps needed no long waits for replies. My buddies in Afghanistan and Iraq are just an email away. Everyone has a .mil address instead of APO and FPO. They still have the APO and FPO if you want to mail packages etc but communications is unreal just look at the all0in-one cell phones. I watch one of 180 plus channels, crystal clear and not like I am outside during a snow storm watching thru a screen door and only getting ONE channel in Black and white. I have no less than 15 guns in my house and I have no idea how many rounds of ammunition, all Legal. I can Vote, I write letters of dissatisfaction. People can bash their leaders and say what they want. That is what I pay for. Aircraft carriers and the planes are not cheap and either is Freedom. I am happy to pay and I am paying less, much less than what the tax burdens were 24 years ago.
Maybe we should stop just once a year a look back at the ground we as a nation have covered and a Nation is all of the people within her, all of their Hopes and their Dreams and the advancements made as they seek them out.
Would you rather pay NO TAXES and live in the drought stricten regions of Africa? China? I think I like it right where I am at.We thepeople are the Check and the balance of our Government and if we choose to sit and do nothing, our return is the same. ....

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wingwiper
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2006-05-10          129191


Horse

I don't know if you are responsible but many of us are.
I was talking to a fellow worker the other day about the ILLEGAL INVADERS and a lady near by said ' I don't like talking about politics" I said 'Good! we aren't talking with you"
I have heard that statement so often and it is like saying politics is bad, should only be discussed in the dark or when you are alone and with no body.
My mom would go to Town Meetings and carry a bat. She spoke her piece and she raised Hell when something was said that was against her grain. She spent the years of World War II on the Hospital Ship U.S. Acadia and not too many people men or women could shut my mom up. I admired her for her spunk. This Nation needs 100 million more like my Mom. Government does what it does because it CAN. We, the people can change whatever we want to change, you read about these people damn near everyday. I have read about 10 year olds with spunk and how they made a difference. For too many of us in this Nation, they are just that STORIES and then we move on to our next destraction.
Horse how many people do you think you have affected right here on TP? Porobably more than you give yourself credit for and even if it is only one, then it os ONE more than what it would have been if you hadn't gotten involved. one brick at a time. ....

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DenisS
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2006-05-10          129193


Wingwiper,
I'm flattered by your compliment, but I don't think I'm deserving of it. All people here are good Patriots; we all have different backgrounds and approach politics from the viewpoint that is specific to our circumstances. Some people are more concerned about economics, others are bothered by social issues. However, when you remind a reasonable person of a problem from a different perspective, they will most likely see your point. ....

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Chief
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2006-05-10          129198


ww, if you are content to accept the steady sink into liberal social communism and the gradual confiscation of all but a few crumbs of your property and earnings. Enjoy the 180 channels of dish TV. You won't have much else.

Your eyes will be opened but too late I fear if you are a property owner who finds their estate exceeds the current ridiculous estate tax criteria. This is about the time that folks get really upset about how the jack booted thugs aka jbt's seize nearly all of your property at gun point, auction it off and throw you a few crumbs unless you have waded into the mind blowing,outrageously complicated estate planning laws and loop holes OR your last name is Kennedy, Bush, or someother political aristocrat.

EVERY tax, permit, license, fine, FICA, MEDICARE, bogus requirements for insurance, and parent subsidy for schools IS A TAX. ALL of them with the exception of the sales tax are illegal and unconstitutional as is income tax wage witholding (which AGAIN is a tax due to lost interest and use of the money).

As I stated earner in another post; with the exception of military service members, ONLY property owning, NON felon, non amnesty naturalized and native citizens should be allowed to vote. ....

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wingwiper
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2006-05-10          129199


Chief

Whoa! we sure are Spirited.
Several years ago I went to Albany NY and I listened to the Greens Movement and a Sentator Bilden who claimed that the passage of the Federal Income Tax Amendment was illegal. I beleive from the top of my head that is the 16 th amendment which was passed by te Senate in February of 1913.I listened and I went on line and I did a lot of research on the so called Consumption Tax only laws. Sen Bilden claimed that the Ratification process which demand that 75% of all states ratify a Bill exactly as it is written before it can be made into an Amendment was NOT accomplished. He claimed he went to every single state (which were states in 1913) and researched their archives to find proof that they Ratified the Bill as written. He claims less than 27 states actually passed the Bill thru ratification, so he asked then how di it come to be an Amendment idf 75% did NOT pass it? so he went to the Federal Senate Logs and found NO ENTRY on a Senate Floor Vote for the 16th Amendment. Well! He sure put on a good talk and he claimed that all taxes unless they are consumption taxes or proportional taxes are ILLEGAL.
I knew a Judge who had not paid Federal Income tax in over 11 years and after he died he had a Court House named after him. I to this day have no idea how much of all this is fact or not. I was never able to find anything that really came out and said THE TAXES ARE ILLEGAL.
Chief you sound like you have lost Property or something. I have some acreage, not a lot but I do have some. I do no know what you are implying. I beleive we had a thread a few weeks back where we all talked about Emient Domain and I do know there is some Federal Investigation going on right now over the claims of Malls etc. I went to the websites that the person from NJ had posted and I read them. I did not find an abundance of abuse for the chart was all of the abuse Nationwide for the last 30 years or so. So fill me in, what is it that has you doing the ole Fire dance.
I am content and I am happy with my Federal Tax Load. I am not happy with the Local Taxes nor am I Happy with the Sin Tax, rooms and meal tax, sales tax, State Income tax or many other taxes that Tax Crazy Howard Dean Implemented or raised. School Taxes? I fight them all of the time and have gone head to head with our Superentendant many times. These are Taxes I am able to fight on a more one on one level and I do, I go to the Town Meetings and I stir up a lot of commotion and my Town has voted Down the budget almost every single year. Our problem, is the Union School Districts, you can get one Town to hear you, but it is hard to be able to be heard in every town of the Union School District. The Budget is usually released just days before Town Meeting and that doesn't give much time to stir up the minds of the voters in all of the towns. I still do not understand how there can be a Union of any kind between the taxpayer and the reciepent of the Taxpayers money. Kinda takes the control from the taxpayer and forces crap onto us that we do not want.
I got a bllgame to go to Daughter is pitching. So will check in later. i am interested to hear what is bugging you. ....

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DeTwang
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2006-05-11          129222


quote
------------------
And by the way, the only reason they exist is because us dumb ol' Americans have been stupid enough to spend more on their defense than they spend on their entire domestic programs.
------------------

BINGO! DING! DING! DING!

I was going to say lets see how much free crap these countries offer when they have to defend 'themselves'......Not to mention, the unemployment rate in many of these countries is much higher than our....and I've hear it can takes anywhere form 6 months to 2 years in canada just to get an MRI....yeah hillary....national healthcare....sure..good idear! ....

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2006-05-16          129427


Peters,
Actually many other countries have as much or more natural resources. The problem is their corrupt governments. Which I fear is where we are headed, especially with this outrageous amnesty plan. But at this point in time, yes we have a great country. I tell my kids often, kings of just a few hundred years ago did not live like the vast majority of us live in this country. God bless the U.S.A.! ....

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Murf
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2006-05-24          129795


Ok, I've sat back and read this for nearly 3 weeks now, and despite nudges from several, I again (a la the "imigrants" thread) stayed silent to watch what happened, and was said.

As some of you know, I have a foot on each side of the border. I was born and (mostly) raised in Canada, as was 8 generations before me, however I have strong ties to the US. My father served, as did I, in the USMC, both as pilots, and I have a lot of family in the US.

Yes, America is a great country, is it the best? Well, that depends on who you ask. No different than asking "Which is the prettiest girl?, or Which is the best brand of pickup or tractor?" As the old saying goes, "Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and even then it depends on badly he wants to be holdin' her....".

Would I go to war to defend the US, yes, I did, in Grenada, Operation Sudden Fury, was it the right thing to do? Don't know, I followed orders, period. Would I go to war for Canada, you bet your bippy I would, if the need arose!

News flash, NOTHING is free!! Not health care, not food, not shelter, not life itself, certainly not freedom itself!!

Are there waits for health care here, sure, sometimes, but if you need it it's there for you. Stories of people 'having' to go to the US for health care is just that, stories. Sure some people go, the ones who know better than their doctors do, and elect to pay out of pocket because they're too important to wait while a more serious commoner goes first. I had an MRI done, there was a 3 day wait, why it was a 3 day wait?, because they had to wait for my condiditon to stabilize first.

Canada, along with several others in the world, offer a great opportunity to those willing to take advantage of it, unfortunately, too many people want just that, to take advantage of it.

My final word, the BEST country, the one that affords YOU, it's protection, it's liberties, it's opportunities to raise your family in safety and security, and a happy & prosperous life, as one nation under God.

Quit bitching and do something to better this world.

Semper Fi.


....

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SG8NUC
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2006-05-24          129796


I guess it does not hurt to look at things from both sides. Even if it is a border. It is a good subject. ....

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jdcman
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2006-05-25          129808



Okay Peters,

Iíll bite what are you poking at?
....

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Peters
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2006-05-25          129815


After years living in the States, I finally figured out what really aggravates me. To place in context, as I have stated in the past my family was here in NA before there was such a thing as the US and despite being Canadian born am third or forth cousin to a couple of presidents, that I know of. Maybe this just means any a-- hole can become president. I moved to the states after I finished my education and worked on protective military wear, gas masks etc. for a number of years. Naturally I spent a lot of time with the military developers.
What I have figured out is that as a Canadian, living with Americans is like living with a narcissistic cousin, every two minutes they are telling you how great they are. Everything in the world relates to them selves or has no value. I guess I have never heard a statement like the one that started this post from a Canadian, despite high standings in UN or other evaluations. Like Murf said evaluating a country is like taking measure of a man. Each man is different and has good and bad points.
Why does narcissistic behaviour bother me? ďBut mark this: There will be terrible times in the last days. People will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, proud, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, without love, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not lovers of the good, treacherous, rash, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God-- having a form of godliness but denying its power. Have nothing to do with them.Ē II Tim 3 ....

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DenisS
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2006-05-25          129817


just a question:

can I own/carry a handgun in Canada? ....

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wingwiper
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2006-05-25          129819


Peters
First if the shoe fits, otherwise no disrespect intended.
I have never witnessed what you refer to, maybe it is only near the border and with Americans who are ticked that the Canadians aree coming down and taking some of the Good Jobs. Maybe it wasn't a boast as much as it was a complaint aimed at you. I have a Canadian who is in charge and he has a Green card. His kids are dual citizens and that does piss me off. Hey! make a choice and then live with it. To sit with dual citizenship or to stay with Green Cards indefinitely, if your loyalty is with Canada, go back to Canada. Otherwise make an effort to become a U.S. Citizen. It makes me believe that he is waiting to see who is going to offer him a prize or something. He serves neither country and he is able to take from either. I bust his chops every chance I get. I see no loyalty either way from him and I wonder how a man can live without a country. So maybe the workers you worked with Peters, saw that. Maybe not. If you are Loyal to Canada and you come here. I have no problem, if you are Canadian and you come here and show Loyalty to the U.S. I still have no problem, but if you are Canadian and you come here and show Loyalty to neither, get your sorry ass out of my country and go leech somehweres else.
I was up near St Henri and the exchanged at the time was 50% and I tried to buy something and they insisted there was No exchange and if I wanted it, I would pay FULL price. I told them that was illegal and stealing and they smiled at me and said. Not here it isn't.
I have had many experiences such as that in Canada and don't go there becuse of it. The Quebec side has more their share of flaming a--holes. Ontario is a Night and Day different. I am still treated as a tourist and after all, I am. So if you come to the U.S. and you are keeping your Canadian Citizenship, then you are nothing more than a TOURIST as well. Hell! around these parts we don't like Flatlanders regardless which state they come from, down South they hate Yankees and in the Souther MidWest it is Wetbacks and in the Mid and northern midwest it is Redskins and in some places it is everybody not from there.
Yeah! I am American and Damn Proud of it and MY country the good Ole U.S. of A. has been there to help just about every other country there is. Seems the help we got after Katrina or 9-11 was token at best. ....

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DenisS
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2006-05-25          129820


Wingwiper,
I understand what you're saying, but if you judged Americans by how tourists are treated in New York City, you could form some misconceptions about America, too. I, for one, am pretty happy to have a civilized English speaking country to our north instead of another Mexico. ....

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jdcman
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2006-05-25          129822



Wing, me thinks you got a personal problem with one guy. You certainly don't speak for all Americans.

Peters,

Interesting. I can remember religious folks back in the seventies predicting the end and complaining about the same stuff.

Your worries may or may not be justified. How would you know without a metric or threshold?

The trigger point maybe orders of magnitude away from where we are today.

I agree thereís a lot to be concerned about it. Not sure I agree with where Iíd focus my energies.

Btw, what is the ultimate goal of a ďlover of GodĒ? Curious, different people give different opinions.
....

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wingwiper
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2006-05-25          129823


Hey!

I wasn't trying to be hateful to anyone, that is why I said if the shoe fits. I did not know Peters circumstances. The rest was my opinion.
Bill Cosby once did a skit on Predjudice and when was finished, there was NO LEFT standing, for everyone is Predjudice, it is just some will admit it while others deny it.
I also gave an example where I as an American was treated like crap in Canada and they same mood that Peters was mentions about the narcissistic Americans, I felt the same way in Canada.
Birds of a feather, flock together and they have no clue how they are treating the ones who are different, it comes to natuarlly. ....

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Peters
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2006-05-25          129832


WW - My loyalty is to God and my citizenship is in the Kingdom of God. What internal importance is my citizenship here on earth? What credit will it be to you or I when we stand in front of Christ in judgment that we were Americans? I think we need to focus on what we are to do and care about, not the incidentals.
Can you tell me how we, as Christians are instructed to treat foreigners in our country? How did you show your God given spirit of humility to the Canadians? If we are the most Christian nation, we should be the humblest nation on earth, not lovers of ourselves, lovers of money, boastful, proud, abusive etc.

JDCman Ė I am not certain as to when the last days will begin. I am not like Chicken Little, running in circles and looking for cover. There is far too much to be done before that time. I am concerned with the attributes given these people in the passage and what we are instructed to do, stay away from them. Certainly we can see Western society having many of these traits, lovers of money, boastful, proud, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, without love, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not lovers of the good, treacherous, rash, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God-- having a form of godliness but denying its power.

Horse farmer Ė You could carry a hunting rifle or shot gun. You could not carry a pistol. ....

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Murf
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2006-05-25          129833


WW, without stirring it up too much here, I have a little food for thought for you.....

Remember how you told me about one bad Dodge truck didn't mean they were all junk, wasn't that the yardstick you just used for Canada, one indignant Quebecer (who probably had a chip on their shoulder the size of Maine) means all Canadians are like that? Common now.

When you talk about 'token efforts' after Katrina, balance that out with us being roughly 10% the population of the US tooo, and that to us it was "foriegn aid" not "domestic relief", or that during the great ice storm of 1998 when we sent countless electric crews to the US to help with cleaning up the damage despite our own mess up here.

Likewise, ask anybody in the southern states, or along the I-95 or I-75 corridor, there is a long line of Canadian electric-utility trucks heading for the clean-up after each hurricane.

Or how about the Alaskan Highway, the DEW line and NORAD, how responsive do you think a country like Mexico would have been to projects like those?

Like it or not, Canada and the US are tied at the hip, their economies are interdependant, their tourism is, their manufacturing and even natural resources, water, electricity, oil & gas, are all 'southbound' commodities.

You could certainly have a worse neighbour.....

Best of luck. ....

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wingwiper
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2006-05-25          129835


Peters

A man without a country is JUST like a man without Faith, he just roams and belongs NOWHERE.
God is the creator, but while you are here you are to be a person that doesn't just SERVE God but serves mankind as well. If God wants us to only serve him, then would I not be a slave? I do not think that is God's intent. God wants us to serve him by following his example, not by casting away all that is here.
Loyalty is only good if you have something to be Loyal to. Honor, Pride, Courage, Patriotism, Faith, Morals are all God created qualities that can make a person a decent person and without them a person is merely just that, a person.
To have a country and to show Loyalty to one's country is not a Blind Faith but will bring the good out in a person. It will feed determination, Honor, Pride, Courage, Morals and YES! even Faith. A man without a country has no real reason to live except for manmade reasons.
You can serve God and still be an Outstanding Canadian or American, it is those who lack one or the other that have questionable characters. Freedom has never been granted to any man by GOD, it has been earned each and every time. All the Commandments only exsist if Man chooses to allow them to exsist and there are times the sword needs to be taken from its scabbard in order for the Bible to survive. I do not for single second beleive that God wants me to just kneel down and allow another man to take my life from me, a life that was given to me by my Creator but only I can protect. I can Pray from now to Hell freezes over, but it will be My actions or actions of others who are lookingout for me that wil allow me to survive. God will not mingle. He is there for my judgement day and I will face him alone as will everyone. That is the time he will either allow me to enter or give me the swift boot.
Man was given two things above the animal kingdom, 1. the ability to have reason. 2. the ability to have logic. Both of which I use to survive. It is good to beleive in God, it is BLIND FAITH to think God is going to take care of you. That my friend, is a job that God gave to you to do. ....

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wingwiper
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2006-05-25          129837


Murf

Please reread my post, I referred to Quebec and I have had many such experiences, mostly in the Montreal area. I did say that Ontario is Night and Day different from Quebec, but I am still a tourtist there and usually treated as such. The hospitality is outstanding in Ottawa area but I am still a tourist and that is what I was trying to establish. That Peters may be jumping the gun a tad on how Americans are eager to claim they are such. I have known many a Canadian with the same attitude.
Yes! Canada has been helpful to us, my reference is to all countries, when I said we have helped just about every single country, I was looking at the comparision of who helped US when we needed it. Where were all of the other countries. I was NOT just picking on Canada. I used Canada as reference because I live close by and been ther emany many times.
I then said Birds of a feather flock together and I met that to another American there was no boasting but maybe to a Canadian who thinks a wee different, has different Ideas etc, yeah they may think that about us.
How many here have driven 18 wheelers? who are the craziest, rude, speed demon, drivers ever to hit the black top? yup! the Canadians, 90 mph in a blinding snowstorm, when the Speed limit is 70 Candians think that is Kilometers.
Lake Champlain is a nightmare when the Canadians have Holiday. Do I hate them? My grandfather's name, (my fishing idol) was Donet Bousquet, so you tell me...... ....

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wingwiper
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2006-05-25          129838


Murf

Not to mention my Idols were not Espisito or ORR, but Grant Fuhr, Patrick Roy, Penny, Messier, Lemieux and sever others. my favorite teams. Oilers, Old Flames when they were Calgary and the Cannucks.
I hate the Canadians the same way I hate the friggin Navy. a Squid is the LOWEST form of Marine Life. My two front teeth were taken by a chair controled by an Seaman at Ft DeRussey just a few miles up from Pearl. Then again I would die for a Navy Corpsman, bravest assholes this world has ever known. ....

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jdcman
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2006-05-25          129839


Peters,

Who the heck is Chicken Little? Not being funny, just not up on the cartoon characters. I gather heís some kind of prophet?

And youíve really lost me with the following:

ďI am concerned with the attributes given these people and what we are instructed to do. Certainly we can see Western society having many of these traits.Ē

What are you talking about?


Wing,

Maybe you guys ain't all talking to the same God ----


....

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2006-05-25          129840


JDC

No! the same God. The Bible was written over a period of 1600 years and by over 60 authors. Thru the Dark Ages much was translated to fit the needs of the Kings. Even the Old Testament is not a 100% accurate translation. Man was hopingthe Dead Sea Scrolls would answer many of the unanswered questions. Not yet.
God is the heart of man. ....

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Murf
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2006-05-25          129841


WW, I think we're on the same page here then, sorry, I did get a different 'read' on it the second go through.

I think there's room for improvement BOTH sides of the border, no doubt about it!!

If you ever want to feel less "like a tourist" head to Newfoundland or most of the (rural) parts of the Maritimes. Real good people out there, they treat you like family and mean it!

BTW, LOL, I got a (re)broken nose from a squid at Quantico, and then broke a knuckle thanking him for it! Luckily for me a couple of SP's saw him take the first swing.

I got the same feelings for a Navy Rescue Swimmer who jumped from a helo to pick me up after I had to bail.

Best of luck. ....

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jdcman
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2006-05-25          129842




"who are the craziest, rude, speed demon, drivers ever to hit the black top? yup! the Canadians, 90 mph in a blinding snowstorm, when the Speed limit is 70 Candians think that is Kilometers."


Wing,

It could be that they're just really skilled.



....

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Murf
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2006-05-25          129847


LOL, two things we're REALLY good at, driving in snow, and putting that last block of snow in the roof of the igloo!! ....

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2006-05-25          129849


Horse Farmer

"I, for one, am pretty happy to have a civilized English speaking country to our north instead of another Mexico."

One of the smartest post out of the whole lot. Canada has been there in the major wars with the US.

WW

If I have to go into battle, I want it to be with the American that is proud, hostile, abusive, with a ego as big as his country. That is how wars are won not by the humble. If anyone does not agree, the military has given you the right to feel that way. I do not dislike Yankees, for being Yankees. I am very selective in my dislikes.

WW
In the army they taught us to duck out of the way of flying chairs. My god you were snuck up on by a squid. LOL

Murf
again thanks for flying and keeping I-95 free. All of the nuts on the interstate do not have Canadian plates. It might be a tip for your friends, and scenic for us southerns if they would stop some where around North Carolina and wash the salt, snow and grime of the Car.

Nothing but love ....

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Peters
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2006-05-25          129853


JD Ė I am referencing the passage concerning the attitudes of the people and the fact we are told to avoid them. Unfortunately it is a little difficult as ďwe have spotted the enemy and we are theyĒ.
WW- Donít be surprised if He just reaches for the ejection handle on judgment day. You should be concerned with what God thinks and wants, not what you think or think He thinks. Deutronomy 6 Lays out pretty clearly what you need to do to be of the right mind. I donít recall anything about a country in the 10 commandments or the 3 directives given by Jesus. Christ only said ďGive unto Cesar that which is Cesarís and God that which is GodĒ.

ďA man without a country has no real reason to live except for manmade reasons.Ē I country is a man made institution if I am following God and not man, should not my morals be God based, rather than based on the fickle power of man? Which country on earth is not corrupted by manís sin, greed and ambition? Godís word and power is absolute, the US could be wiped away in a minute. Yellowstone could erupt again for example.

God did not require the sword to spread the Gospel. Which one of the apostles was known to be a warrior? The Gospel is being spread into China not through the power of the sword today. Maybe you need to read second Timothy 3 again. ....

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jdcman
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2006-05-25          129861




Wing,

Sounds like you're going down man.


Peters,

What's your ultimate goal?


If you're both serving the same God, as an outsider there seems to be a conflict in interpretation, or one of you is telling a "fib".


....

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DenisS
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2006-05-26          129867


If it weren't for people like Wingwiper, we wouldn't have a nation. It it weren't for people like Peters, we wouldn't be a Christian nation. A dialog of this kind is constructive and meaningful; I wish our national political discussions followed along the same lines. Instead, the fighting is all about special interests, how to divide our hard-earned tax money, how to please this or that loud-mouth. I honestly believe that if a meteor was to strike Washington and wipe out the three branches of government, this country would do just fine, maybe better.

On another point: there's something about a country were you have a legal right to carry a handgun and have a piece of mind that comes with that (now, I wouldn't know about it living in NJ - no 2nd amendment rights for me). I think Liberties is the biggest asset that comes with being an American. Never take them for granted, never feel subservient to the authority of government. ....

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wingwiper
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2006-05-26          129868


So why then Peters did Jesus look at the Isrealites and say they were the chosen people. That refers to a people and not to an indiviual and it refers to a country of people.
God allowed the Red Sea to spread open so they could make good their escape and then closed the sea upon their enemies. If that isn't serving with a sword, then I do not know what is. Evil is NOT to be ignored but to be destroyed.
The Bible can say whatever you want the Bibe to say, I will use your example you said 'Everything in the world relates to them selves or has no value." and isn't that EXACTLY what YOU are doing or saying? You live for the Bible and only the bible and you also said "My loyalty is to God and my citizenship is in the Kingdom of God. What internal importance is my citizenship here on earth? What credit will it be to you or I when we stand in front of Christ in judgment that we were Americans? I think we need to focus on what we are to do and care about, not the incidentals." You are a SLAVE to your beliefs and you say that there is NO LOYALTY to your fellow man and only to God. You are preaching to me exactly what you dislike about Americans.
I am a very proud American and unlike the Crusaders who buthered and raped in the name of God, or unlike the U.K. who even to this day has a problem between the Protestants and the Catholics and have bombed each other and killed each other in the name of a different faith.
The Quaran runs countries and treats women likea pieces of garbage. When a man grows tired of his wife, he may pour gasoline on her and touch her off. IT is NOT illegal in Arab states, the very same areas where Jesus came and Preached. So Peters tell me, whose Faith is the True and Honest Faith?
Is it wrong for people to worship a Cow? Not to the people who worship the cow it isn't. So do you pass judgement on others? I think you do and I think we all do. God is the Heart of man and it is what gives you your drive to continue, but Man is made of more than just a Heart and God also gave man Wisdom and the ability to use it.
I carry God with me, wherever I go but I do not let it control me to the point I am naive. If you hit me, I will most certainly hit you back and I will not turn the cheek and walk away.
I do not feel for a minute that Loyalty to ones country is wrong or even sinful. I said it some time back, if you believe you have not committed a sin, then you have not. Mormons were able to have multiple wives and they felt it was OK and acceptable and a Catholic did not believe in Devorce. Peters religion is man made and as I said the Bible was written over a period of 1600 years and by over 60 authors, so how can you prove what God really said unless you have some first hand writtings? Everything in any religion is based on interputation. Unless they had Tape recorders and you are able to hear Jesus's very own words you are responding to translations and hear say, God is in your heart and you only need to listen to your heart. People in Iraq live and die by the Quaran and that is an interputation and yet people die for it. How can you or anyone for that matter say it is words of god when there is no proof that God or Jesus ever said any of it?
I am not trying to insult you Peters, I admire your dedication and your Faith and there is nothing wrong with Faith unless it is misued. I never understood what a Religous War was, it sounds like a Jumbo Shrimp, or Semi Truck.
When Moses recieved the Ten Commandments, and it said Thou shall not kill, how does anyone know Moses really talked to God or Moses was on his own Mission like Joseph Smith?
I beleive the Iraq War is a war with good intentions and 24 million people have a right to live and chose as they want, they should NOT have to live in fear and religous suppression. Does your faith say that Americans are wrong by freeing the people of Iraq from the tyranny of Saddam, Qusay and Quday? Those three men were the worst WMDs next to Hitler. They may have been responsible for up to 10 million deaths over 30 years. Does you faith say to turn the cheek and walk away when someone is asking for help, when that help might involve killing evil people?
....

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wingwiper
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2006-05-26          129869


Murf

From Cobbleskil NY down 88 to Binghamton and then down 81 to Ravin Pa has to be some of the worst road in te Winter that this country can offer. I would be doing 20 mph and visibility was about 6 feet in front of my hood and them Cannucks would sail past me at 70.
SG
Duck? have you ever tried to duck a chair at full throttle? You need t do alot of ducking.
My favorite quote comes from General Patton "Wars are not won by you dying for your country, they are won by making the other bastards die for theirs" The U.S. is a peaceful conutry and has always stepped in to lend a hand. I am Proud of that. Where would the world be today if te U.S. did not get involved in WWI or WWII, after all the U.K. was out of planes and skilled pilots and the channel was growing smaller each day. Where would France be if we decided not to have a Normandy or Italy if we never marched in to Sicily? I am not saying that the U.S. did it all by herself, but like Teddy at San Juan Hill, sometimes it takes someone to grab the Flag and lead the way. Others will get motivated and follow. I find it amazing how much motivation can come from looking at that Flag (yours or mine) in battle. at our Firebase we had one on a crooked ole pole and yet now and again we all looked at it and got our motivation and determination, all from a simple piece of cloth that did nothing more than represent something different to everyone who looked at it. Some saw long Island or the Green Mountains or Rockies, others saw the desert of Arizonia or whatever. Just simply amazes me. Peters the Bible is a lot like the Flag. keep your faith, you are a better person becasue of it, I am a better person because of my beliefs. ....

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DenisS
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2006-05-26          129870


WW quote:
"I beleive the Iraq War is a war with good intentions "
Have you ever heard a phrase: the road to hell is paved with good intentions? Intentions do not excuse actions. No war is just, except a war in defense of your homeland. Invasion of Afganistan was a defensive war, invasion of Iraq was a misbegotten aggression. Our marines and soldiers are being butchered by roadside bombs and for what!? Every war will lead to innocent deaths and they are only justified when those deaths prevent a far greater number of innocent deaths, otherwise war is murder. I never understood why we abandoned our search for Bin Laden -this should remain our #1 foreign policy objective. The fact that he's still at large is a reflection on the ineptitude of this government. I have another word for describing Bush's current "doctrine" of pre-emption: aggressive/obsessive paranoia. We all like to quote Teddy Roosevelt here, so here's another quote: "Speak softly and carry a big stick". We sure are carrying a big stick, but we lost the art of speaking softly. Unless we're willing to annihilate the entire muslim world, we're gonna have to learn to share the planet with them and one thing that will help that along is if we learn to distinguish between real and imagined threats. ....

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DenisS
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2006-05-26          129871


having said that, I have no intent to share my neighborhood with any of them; I still want every single one of them rag-praying musulmans outta this country. ....

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Murf
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2006-05-26          129875


WW, a couple of small points here.

The US didn't enter WWI until well into the thrid year of the conflict, and mostly then because the Italians (who also had just recently joined the fight) were getting bruised some....

Most scholars agree that WWII really started with the Germans annexing Austria in March of 1938, however the fighting didn't really start until they invaded Poland on September 1, 1939. The US, while symapthetic, and happily selling armaments and food to Europe, didn't enter the war until Japan attacked the US at Pearl Harbour in December 1941, better than 2 full years after the fighting began.

The bottom line? Most scholars agree, the main reason the Americans were victorious in almost every war they've fought was not so much because of their fighting ability, but the same reason the Soviet Union is a memory now, they were able to out-spend, and out-produce their enemies.

SG8NUC, I stop in NC all the time, I was at MCAS Cherry Point NC, beautiful area!!

Best of luck. ....

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wingwiper
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2006-05-26          129882


Murf

Your small points were understood. Now allow me to pass on a few small points. We were THERE long before we were there. As a pilot I am sure you have heard of the HUMP? As a Pilot I am sure they talked to you about the American Volunteers who went to England and flew for the RAF because England was on her knees and out of pilots. As a Historian it was Americans who were sending War Materials via the Altantic and on to GB. The U.S. was there in Spirit and in manpower and in material long before the decalration of war ever pass over the lips of Roosevelt. Roosevelt didn't want war but as we were in Cambodia and Laos long before we were in Cambodia and Laos, we were there. The Americans came in fresh and with fresh materials, and as they did in WWI they lifted the spirits.
It wasn't about outspending it was about determination and what the Russians said about Americans pretty well sums it up and I will have to paraphrase "What makes the Americans so tough of an advisary is there War Doctrines, what makes them so hard to beat is that they don't follow their War Doctrine."
It doesn't have to be the U.S. it could be anyone who has the means. You piss someone off bad enough and if they have the means, they will defeat you. England was out of manpower, most were sitting in German POW camps. Their chocie of bombing during daylight hours had the Americans baffled, for we choose to bomb at night. So when we did join up with them, it was a round the clock bombing of Germany and then Germany being on the defense no longer could muster any more agressive acts against England, they rsorted to Technology and the V-1 and tze V-2.
Horse
I do not beleive Afghanistan was an invasion nor no I beleive that Iraq was a misbegotten aggression. Last night on A&E I watched the Lives of the Men from Lima Company. Iraq is a new and different type of wart and needs to be fought differently. We are adapting. It is hard to find an enemy when they shed their uniforms, fly no flag and hide in womens' gurkas. They are desperate and they will soon subdue, I rather fight the war there than wait for it to come here and here it surly would come. I strongly believe that a decent offense is worth far more the best defense. Saddam is out of power and Iraq will have to learn to think like a Nation and not like tribes. This will take time, but if the adjustments aren't made, the world will never ever be at Peace. Horse go to this website http://www.defendamerica.mil/iraq/rebuilding.html and see what we have accomplished. Remember the media only reports on burning houses, there is so much that our men and women are accompkishing and not getting any recognition for it hurts. I am determine to ensure that we see this through and I have no doubt that 20 years from now, it will be a Great World in the Middle East. Woman are back in schools in Afghanistan, they are teaching and learning, they are back in decent jobs, and they are able to walk down the street without fear. We offered them a hand and we offered them a chance, it is up to them to do with those chances as they may. Go to the site and see what the lives have really been given up for. Freedom is not Free and never has been and God doesn't grant any man Freedom, Man has to gain his freedom before he gain his Faith. Iraq is a war that has devided this nation, but I strongly support it and the cause. 17 U.N. Resoulutions totally ignored, Weapon Inspectors kicked out after they had been led around like a Bull with a nose ring, Invasion of another country, SCUDs fired into Kuwait, Suadia, and Isreal, People massacred because they believed differently or just because Saddam and his sons enjoyed torture and killing. Saddam had a room full of his men once and he read the names off of about 50 of them and falsley accused them of treason. Suddenly one man stood up and shouted We love Saddam, saddam looked at the remaining men and said " Ah! so you love me, tomoorw to show your love for me, you will be the firing squad and kill the others" Qusay if you didn't do well in sports, he tortured you or killed you. One neat little fun thing they liked to do was tie your hands behind your back, walk you to the top of a building and push you off. These astrocities have stooped, why? because the U.S. and U.K. stood firmly against these acts and strongly we will continue to stand. It is a just war. There are 24 million good reasons in Iraq alone. ....

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Murf
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2006-05-26          129884


WW, I do know about that aspect of it, in fact one of my great-uncles was one of those pilots, that was what I was talking about with "...happily selling armaments and food to Europe...".

The term "volunteer" only applies to the way in which the men got there, they were not conscripts, they volunteered to go, but don't kid yourself, under the "Lend/Lease" program the US got PAID, and quite handsomely I might add, for every man, plane or truck that went over there.

As for the US doctrine of war, I think it was best summed up by John F. Kennedy on January 20, 1961;

"Let every nation know...
whether it wishes us well or ill...
that we shall pay any price,
bear any burden,
meet any hardship,
support any friend,
oppose any foe,
to assure the survival and the success of LIBERTY".

Countries like Iraq & Afganistan WILL see liberty or a lot of good people will have died for nothing, and a lot more WILL die for even less reason!!!

Best of luck.

....

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kthompson
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2006-05-26          129885


The Bible, more to the point the Holy Bible, is a collection of God's word given to a few men to record for the vast population.

No man has ever been able to prove there is a single mistake in it. History has many that went to prove it to be a lie or fable only to become convinced it is true and thus the Word of God.

The Bible is very clear that all do not believe it and addresses that. It is also very clear The Jews are God's choosen people. But that does not mean he allows them to do what ever they choose.

If you love your child you train them. That does mean you train them to obey.

The thought that just because I don't believe it is a sin it is not is about as stupid a thought as I have ever heard. Let's carry that to what I think is the extreme: Hilter thought by killing millions of Jews and some others he was doing what was right. So for Hilter, it was not a sin? Or a crime?

Take a minute and think. No human is 100% right 100% of the time. I am not trying to offend anyone and trust you realize that. I am not mad nor angry. Just, come guys, use the brain that our creator gave you. Oh, so you have a brain that is evolving from a single cell and has not cuaght up. Got it. Hey just joking on that last part.

GD, GB ....

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DenisS
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2006-05-26          129886


Wing, your positive outlook is definitely a good thing. Gloom and doom pessimism, which is what I'm best at, is not the most constructive thing. I just, for the life of me, don't see what Americans have to do with Iraq. Their problems are their business - that's just my take on it. ....

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Murf
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2006-05-26          129891


HF, let me try to explain it this way.

If you see a crime being committed, someone being robbed for instance, but it is not against you, YOU are not being robbed, do you ignore it, or try to stop it?

I would hope you would help that person, and am pretty sure you would.

So, a whole country is seized by a ruthless dictator who has no respect for the life, liberty or security of anyone but himself, do you ignore that too? Do you let him amass a vast fortune from oil sales, etc., with which to fund terrorism and possibly to attack you & your family?

I'm pretty sure your answer will still be to help out.

Best of luck.

....

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kthompson
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2006-05-26          129897


Murf,

Good.

Don't now remember the full details but the group of climbers that went by and left another climber to die on I think Mt. Everest recently. How can a HUMAN do such?

Yet for years we have heard the cry of man is no different than a dog or a monkey. Guess it is working. ....

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wingwiper
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2006-05-26          129898


Murf

I have only two words for your last two posts.

Semper Fidelis ....

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wingwiper
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2006-05-26          129904


KT

Hitler thinking he was right is not what I was referring to, I was referring to a collective group such as the Mayans, Incas or the Aztecs and their human sacrifices.
Did God, thru an Angel not ask Adam to slay his son to show his love for God and his willingness to give up everything for that love? Do you really think that an all Loving God would even consider a Sacrifice of any kind as a symbol of love?
You are right that Bible has not been proven to be false nor has it been proven to be the EXACT words of Christ or God.
I could live near you all of my life and I could write a book about you and I would only be able to write what I saw, I could easily allow myself to put in my own opinions.
Don't get me wrong, I do not challenge the exsistance of God, for I feel he is very real. Life is way to complex to be here by chance. I do beleive that man with limited volcabularies weren't often able to quote others perfectly. Man has faults and if you told a story to someone who could NOT write and they retold the story to someone who could, much would be lost.
Native Americans believe in Mother Earth and the Great Spirit, are they going to Hell because they took a False God before them?
Man needs religion, he has to have it for exsistance. He needs to feel calm that his loved ones go to a better place. That he has purpose. I think alot of religion is strictly for feel good reasons. God loves us and he surly created us, but our actions belong only to us. Others feel that need to stuff the body, or let it sit and decay. Many cultures have different beliefs in the after life, are they evil for their beliefs? NO! Hitler was a bit to far out to use it as a comparision to what I was meaning.
I live only a few miles from where Joseph Smith claimed to have seen and spoke to the Angel that created the Mormon religion. I have hunted that area and I have never seen any Angels. I am not trying to be rude, for I have had things happen to me, that without question was from the other side. How much is exaggerated for personnel gain and how much is true is what I am asking.
I stil feel man can carry his Faith with him and does NOT need to go into a Fancy Church, decorated in Marble and Gold to worship his or her God.
Catholics are sure not without sin, the very ones who teach us are the ones not listening to their own words, did that not happen to Jesus as well? Were the religous ones of the time not preaching to every one, the Messiah is coming, the Messiah is coming and then when he stood before them, they condemed him and had him crucified. I think Faith and Religion are two seperate things. Faith I carry with me and I pray silently to God, Religion is the gathering of the masses. Evangelists make a fortune off of man's weakness and his desire to become spiritually stronger. ....

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DenisS
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2006-05-26          129907


Murf,

Let me reply this way, imagine you see someone getting beat up on the street. You come up to help out and the victim tells you "Get the hell away, this fight is none of your business". That's what we have - we're not wanted in Iraq -these people have been brutalized for thousands of years and do not posess the virtues of gratitude and loyalty. You and wingwiper are judging the situation from your own North American cultural experience and that's where the problem is. ....

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wingwiper
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2006-05-26          129913


Denis

regardless, you still have to TRY. ....

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AnnBrush
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2006-05-26          129917


As a statistician I summarize as follows (this is a text book case of how not to conduct a survey and make inferences for the population as a whole): America is the greatest place on earth if you are a middle-aged property owning, tractor driving, white christian male with a love for guns and the military in general. Conduct the same survey on a web site dedicated to pot smoking hippies seeking canibis grow techniques and how to avoid the law and I would be suprized if you got the same answer. Just because everyone agrees does not make it necessarily so. ....

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2006-05-26          129918


The fundamental problem with Murfís analogy is that for decades there have been several anti American countries that were run by dictators. The majority of them were / are ruthless and all the bad things he stated.

Donít forget that in Sadamís case he was the US lacky of the Middle East for a long time and to a large extend under US air control.

The argument could be made that if the people of Iraq were so desperate to rise up, the opportunity was certainly there.

Try a different analogy.

Btw Ann, we don't all agree.

America was once a great country, has the potential to be a great country but is quickly on it's way to be coming a third world country.

That's my opinion.
....

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Murf
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2006-05-26          129927


WW, thank you.

Denis, the problem is, it's NOT the Iraqi's saying go home, this is not your fight, it's the pions of and zealots who are the remnants of the dictatorship!!!

Witness the recent highly succesful, but not widely reported because it wasn't sensational enough, raids and arrests made because of intel. given to the Allies by everyday people.

All you have to do is watch the news footage, look at all the happy people, cheering and welcoming the Allied forces, there are only a few insurgents, but that's all it takes to fill CNN's reports......

There's what? About 150,00 people (troops & Civilians) in Iraq now? So if "Iraq" doesn't want us there, why so (relatively) few deaths or even attacks?

JDCman, yes there have been, and continue to be some bad spots, but they are under pressure to change, just like Iraq was, Iran for example, and they can either change, or push their luck just a little too far like Saddam did.

Osama was fighting with weapons supplied by the US to try and drive out the Soviets.

The Shah of Iran was given a the only US Intaglio-type currency printing press. Want to guess where all the high quality conterfeit money is coming from?

While we're putting together this list, let's not forget other places like China, if they ever get thier Army on their bicycles and pointed towards the US be sure to say "Thank you come again!" like the nice man at Wally World that funded them does!!

Best of luck.

....

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wingwiper
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2006-05-27          129936


Ann

This country is a fantastic country whether you are a Pot smoking hippie or a tractor driver. Some just take longer to realize how well they have it. Sometimes it takes a loss of some of your freedoms for you to realize just how fortunate you were before. People muture and as they do their attitudes and values of life do as well. The country does't change for the Tractor driver, it is the same country. You will get out of it, exactly what you put into it. If you put nothing into it, to improve it or to help it, then you will get the same in return.
JDC
you said
"The argument could be made that if the people of Iraq were so desperate to rise up, the opportunity was certainly there." wasit really? How do rise up against a Dictator who controls and Army and has tanks and guns and people working for him just like the SS? You have no guns to defend your self or even to arm yourself. You do not know who you can trust and who you can't because many among you are on Saddam's payroll. How do you organize when the odds are so great against you? it was tried and the executions were moments after the trials. These people lived a fear you can only sit and TRY to imagine and still never be close to what it was like.
You can't please all of the people all of the time you can please some of the people some of the time. The military is made of the people who want to do something and they are lead by the people who want to do something and my suggestions has always been if you do not want to be involved, you don't have to. We don't draft anymore. If you want Peace I suggest you spend some time with the Peace Corps and see if you gain any ground. If you care not to be involved period and only make judgements on others performance, I would suggest stay on the couch in front of the boob tube. Lead, Follow or get the Hell out of the way. (sorry Murf, stole that from the 82nd Airborne)
Saddam was NEVER a U.S. Lacky. Was never involved with the U.S. you need to go and do some research. He was a Ba'ath member who idolized Hitler and the SS and grew from support from France and later Russia. The weapons in Iraq are French and Russian, it was Russian Sciencetists working with Saddam. Saddam stood against the U.S. from day one because we supported Isreal.


....

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jdcman
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Posts: 103 washington
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2006-05-27          129937


Wing,

Youíre truly a man of passion, but sometimes passion without thought is pretty silly. But then I forgot, you are a sales man.

I have to admit my memory isnít as good as it use to be. But there was this little war back in the Ď80ís that involved Iraq and Iran. We did have a vested in interest in supporting Iraq and we did supply biological,chemical and other technologies.

Why donít you do some research and report back. How about that famous handshake? Ah thatís nothing --- forget about it.
....

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wingwiper
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 676
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2006-05-29          129980


JDC

Famous handshake? there was NO FAMOUS handshake, you can call it what you want, but if was far from famous and had no more meaning than a handshake with Ho Chi Minh or Nikta Kruschev. For Christs sake man, quit trying to make mountains out of little tiny ant hills. Rumsfield shook his hand. Hell I have shaken hands of people I have hated and smiled too. Big friggin deal. History is full of such hand shakes, now you are trying to make a DeVinci Code link to the past and claim it had connections? Good God, I have heard weak arguements before but you are running a close second.
I did very little research after reading your post but here is a sentence from a source and I will tell you it was Steven Shalom, hmmmm "France became the major source of Iraq's high-tech weaponry, in no small part to protect its financial stake in that country. The Soviet Union was Iraq's largest weapon's supplier, while jockeying for influence in both capitals. Israel provided arms to Iran, hoping to bleed the combatants by prolonging the war. And at least ten nations sold arms to both of the warring sides."
Now JDC if you want to quote a reliable source for your accusations, i will gladly go and read them. I am not interested in the views of a media reporter or the such and if you would care to provide real proof that the U.S. Govt s "had a vested in interest in supporting Iraq and we did supply biological,chemical and other technologies."
We get no oil to speak of from Iraq or Iran and never have, so what is the vested interest you refer to? (Now if a company in the U.S. did, that is NOT the govt. If that bothers you than Clinton giving 600 Super Computers, the W-88 Nuclear multi strike warhead and technology for delivery systems, to China, should have you rolling on the floor in fits of rage.)Going after a dictator who had the 4th largest Army in the world? Turning Iraq against Khomeni? Yeah! the U.S. plays cards with countries in the interest of World Security. Not in personnal gain. But if you have other evidence, I would like to read it. I am not interested in a writer's opinion and only facts will be considered.
So as I said before, do some research and come back when you have a good arguement, here say or opinion is not a basis for a good arguement. Steven Shalom is a NOBODY and I found NO evidence that the U.S. was anything close to what you say.
And as I said before, if you do not wear the uniform, do not be quick to judge those who do, we do not think like you and don't want to. No! we are not brain-washed, we chose in our lives to do something and we are. We have always been judged by those who sit and jump to conclusions and dream of a fantasy world that does not exsist. Freedom has to be fought for and people die in fights. Now here is some amusing numbers for you, if the number of killed in Iraq is what bothers you then you should research how many U.S. citizens die each and every year in U.S. Hospitals. Now to make it more interesting change the word die into killed. You will find the number to be about 175,000. Yes! that is right 175,000 and to get you started since death bothers you so much, I will give you the first web site, written by doctors and published in JAMA http://www.healingdaily.com/Doctors-Are-The-Third-Leading-Cause-of-Death-in-the-US.htm
If the reports on the American dead isn't what bothers you, then what is your problem? Another little fact, more die each year from drowning in swiming pools than Americans die in Iraq. Almost as many die from falling down stairs as have died annually in Iraq. So there are many other death statistics that you JDC could get up off your ass and do something about. Right here in the U.S. no uniform required, no oathes just maybe some volunteer work. Maybe you could help some of the elderly so they don't fall down stairs and become the next victim or help put up fences around pools etc. Put your energy to work where it could do some good and quit bitching about stuff you or I have no ability or entitlement to know. Better yet if you want entitlement, then that would take years to gain the clearances, the faith of the others to trust you with such information and then you would also have to be sworn to secrecy and live a second life totally for your country.
JDC your brain could not process anywhere enough of the data that you demand to know. You think World Affairs and International Security is going to be published in Newsweek? Do you think if you knew something you little ole JDC in anywheres USA is going to be able to do anything about it? do you think you could ever know all you think you ever need to know and be happy? Are you going to say I am a puppet for not wanting to know? LOL, I know my limitations and I don't need to know how much water is behind the damn, only that there isn't any cracks. I leave the rest to the Engineers and I am usre you do as well. Do you worry about the bridges when you cross them? No because you have faith that everything was done right and that the Govt inspected it as well. So why do you attack the govt over issues you have no knowledge or true understsanding of? ....

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jdcman
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 103 washington
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2006-05-29          129989


Wing,

Sometimes, you ramble on like an idiot. Your problem is not curiosity; itís the lack there of and the tendency towards "myopicness".

Re-read some of the stuff youíve written.

Yes we did have a vested interest in pitting Iraq against Iran.

Re this crap about who supports this country more:

I donít know for sure, but I suspect that you remained in service for as long as you did because:

a) You were just stupid and liked getting your teeth kicked in

b) You really didnít have enough skills to do anything else.


And btw, if you have retired from the military Iím contributing to your wages. So donít be so quick to bite the hand that feeds you.

Based on your statements about your income, I donít make any 12 Ė15 X your income but my tax liability is at least that.

People like me support slackers like you who believe the system owes them something. You complain about Hilary and the social liberals, but you are sure willing to consume the entitlements provided by their rampant socialistic policies.

This country can survive a grave terrorist attack. Its demise will be as a result of poor economic polices. Thereís tens of millions of Americans just like you, all looking for that free ride and unwilling to carry their fiscal load.

So donít start yapping to me about how you support this country. Meaningful support is more than just waving the flag; it takes thought, the will and fortitude to do the right thing.

If I had my way, I would build that damn wall and kick all the scum bucket slackers like you out on to the other side.

Btw, another difference between you and I, is that I can calculate the hydrostatic pressures behind that dam, design one if I had to and make intelligent decisions about how to use it.

Before you start a rambling response think about what Iím saying.

And also bare in mind, what does truly make this country grand is the diversity of people that live here and not the lack there of.

The dispute you and I have is about the policies that will allow the run to continue.
....

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wingwiper
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 676
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2006-05-29          130002


JDC
Anyone who has to pat their own shoulder has some serious complexes.
Slacker? You call me a slacker? How very interesting, you hand does not feed me, so get a life and get off your lazy ass and make something of yourself other than a chronic complainer. I owe you nothing and you have probably been a taker your entire life. So you pay taxes well goody for you, so don't I and you have no glue how much I pay, so quit trying to measure a person by their net worth, you won't succeed very well. I am a salesman now out of choice and have done many things in my life, I do not feel the need to compare my life to yours and I really don't care if your dick is bigger. Whoppie for you.
Enjoy your life, I see you could not carry on an intelligent conversation for very long, I know I know my post was all rambling, of course it was to someone who has shit for brains.
Nice talking to you ya JDC. You need to gt a life. I am not retired yet.... You haven't paid very close attention at all now have you?
Good day and you will be ignored by me, please return the courtesy.
....

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Chief
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 4285 Southwest MiddleTennessee
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2006-05-29          130003


jdcman,

After reading through your last post............. I suppose I would be one of those "scum bucket slackers" since I am a retired Chief Warrant Officer Aviator of 21 years service, a war veteran, and a disabled veteran.

By your own words, it is apparent to anyone that you hold these folks in utter contempt and loathing as well as feel every military veteran or retiree, disabled, dead or alive falls into your so called "scum bucket slackers" category.

Your words come not only as a shock but an embarrasment to me that you are on the same website with me not to mention the same thread espousing such disrespect to our military veterans and active duty on MEMORIAL DAY!!!!!! Of all days!!!!!!

You should hang your head in shame! ....

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jdcman
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 103 washington
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2006-05-29          130010


Sorry you feel that way Chief, re-read my post.

Some of my post is a carry over from a prior discussion re the socialistic nature of the tax codes. Wing has a position, so do I.

Hereís my points to Wing:

Wearing a uniform isnít a prerequisite for Patriotism.

Plenty of people make contributions in other ways. Their opinions are just as valid. Never said anything about people of service, just Wing. All based on his personal comments and my interpretation of those.

Socialism is bipartisan. Liberals and the Democratic Party donít have sole claim.

The ultimate ďdown bringingĒ of this country will be poor economics, not terrorism.
....

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DenisS
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 367 NJ
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2006-05-30          130033


jdcman quote:
"what does truly make this country grand is the diversity of people that live here and not the lack there of."

If I hear ONE MORE THING about the so called DIVERSITY, I'm gonna puke..

jdcman, are you one of those folks with a rainbow bumber sticker on your car? ....

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DeTwang
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 268 Shingletown, Ca. (Near Redding)
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2006-06-11          130750


quote
__________________________
I donít know for sure, but I suspect that you remained in service for as long as you did because:

a) You were just stupid and liked getting your teeth kicked in

b) You really didnít have enough skills to do anything else.
__________________________

I gotta say..this is probably the most offensive thing I've seen on this board or any other on the net I frequent in recent memory...If it was coming from someone in a country hostile to the US, I might could comprehend it...but not this one...

So those who have fought and died...are their familes who are recieving their benefit paycheck, lazy bastard money grubbin freeloaders too? Wasn't giving up their husband/father/son/brother enough to qualify them as worhty for a tax funded paycheck?

Or are they somehow different than those who have only lost limbs, or fought and somehow came back with all their pieces? Or those who went in, and agreed to go to their death if called, but never were....just so you can sit here and shit on their graves, their families, their sacrifice?

Where does it stop...are all government employees (retired or otherwise) freeloaders too? Policemen? Firefighters? Teachers? Liberal Professors (might have a point there)? Rescue workers? The Coast Guard that rescues your ungrateful ass when your boat motor conks out and you're drifting out to sea? Intelligence officers? How about the guys who repair the roads that allow you to drive to your property? Without them, you'd have to carry your damn groceries on your back through the snow to your unheated lean-to...How about the weather service who tells you 5 feet of snow is coming, so better get your ass ready? Are all these peple freeloaders? Or is it only after they're older and used up, and expecting the country they took care of, to take care of them in return? I guess, after a public servant is no longer able to produce, it's the back alley for them now, right?....or maybe just shoot their useless ass, eh?

How would your life be without any of these people? Would you have anyone to protect you from the next despot? How about the bipolar meth addicted neighbor?

What a terrible, ungrateful attitude you have expressed! Unbelieveable! And I have no idea how to understand it's source....We have so much here, and owe thanks to many who have sacrificed everything so we can have it....those who have been willing to stand in the gap deserve a tax funded paycheck, if anyone does..much moreso than the clintons, and bushes, and carters, and nixons, and kennedys, and kerrys, and boxers, etc... of this world...

Like I ask women or men who badmouth their spouses..."Why would you tear down your own house?"

....

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SG8NUC
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 579 g
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2006-06-18          131008


I will take my civil Service retirement check after 34 years in the Dod and I dont care what anyone thinks. I earned it, and it is mine. ....

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