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Greg Erceg
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2001-07-27          30460

Is there anywhere one can buy a hydraulic top link with hoses, without having to fabricate it? I have been reading some of the boards, and it appears as though people have had to weld the end pieces onto hydraulic cylinders they purchase at TSC and other such stores. I have a Boomer with two ports to the rear that I want to plug in a top link so as to make better use of my box blade. Thanks in advance.

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Terry Senay
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2001-07-28          30462

This is somewhat unrelated to the fabrication question, but something I don't guite understand. How do you fill and pressurize the hydraulic cylinder and hoses after fabrication? ....

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mark
Join Date: Feb 2002
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2001-07-28          30463

greg,
we ordered our top and side link from our local new holland dealer.
i think they were tisco,gannon or gearmore? anyway they should have a
listing for them. hope this helps. mark
....

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Green_in_MI
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2001-07-28          30476

If you search the web using "hydraulic cylinder" you will find several places that sell hydraulic toplinks. Green Manufacturing in toledo, Bailey(Chief cylinders) hydraulics, Worksaver, etc. However,these are all for Cat II hitches and they may have trouble fitting on your tractor side if you have cat 1. Its not that tough to just buy a cylinder and have the welding done. you will probably still be money ahead. I had a ball end welded to the rod end of my cylinder and had a piece welded that is sort of a universal at the tractor side similar to the design used by the Chief hydraulic toplink. Remember, however you fashion your link, design it for both compression and tension loads. The hoses are just basic plumbing, except for the quick connects that should be used to hook to the tractor. To answer Terry's question. After you hook up the hoses and cylinder - tight fittings! Just cycle the hydraulic fluid through it several times and the reservoir in the tractor transmission will act as a bleeder for the air. ....

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JeffM
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2001-07-30          30505

Greg, you can get a hydraulic top link complete with hoses, couplers, and position indicator (Model HTL-1) from Bubco in Lodi, California for about $300 as far as I know. See web site below and send for information package as the web site doesn't list the individual things you can get. ....


Link:   Bubco web site

 
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Steve
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2001-07-30          30508

I used Gannon cylinders for my toplink and sidelink on my 4700. They come completely assembled and fit perfectly. You just have to make up the correct length hoses. ....

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charlie
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2001-07-31          30544

i've used gannon cylinders since the 70's and always had good luck with them.i had a problem getting one for my boomer so i opted for a tisco.i'll put it with a gannon as far as quality for less money.good luck. ....

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lsheaffer
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2001-08-01          30546

Contact me at sheaftractor@coiinc.com for various size top & side links.815-284-3226 ....

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TomG
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2001-08-01          30549

Sounds like there are plenty solutions. One not mentioned is that sleeves for sizing CATII loops to CATI pins are available. Good idea to remember to check the hydraulic oil level after charging a new cylinder. ....

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Ironpeddler
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2007-10-26          147390

Sooner or later you will endup purchasing a hydraulic toplink with a Double Piloted Check Valve. ....


Link:   Hydraulic Toplinks to the MAXX

 
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greg_g
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2007-10-26          147400

SPAM !!...trying to sell your product by resurrecting a six year old thread is not conversational. It's advertising. Besides that, the DPCV is a gimmick. It has less to do with the cylinder than it does with compensating for a worn remote valve. On a new tractor, getting a DPCV is a waste of money. Matter of fact - on any tractor with good remotes - it's a waste of money.

I've got a basic Cat 2 HTL. No fancy plumbing, no external check valves - nothing but the usual two hydraulic hoses. I installed it on a 2004 model tractor (OE remotes) about 2 years ago. No piston movement whatsoever; where I set it with the remote valve - is where it stays.

//greg// ....

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earthwrks
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2007-10-26          147404

You're exactly right on all accounts. I have no checks on mine either. ....

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Ironpeddler
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2007-10-26          147406

Greg,
We have thousands of satisfied customers and we sell only toplinks and sidelinks with a DPCV. Our customers seem to like our OEM high quality cylinders and our great prices. We don't sell some pot luck surplus cylinders. Our cylinders have chromed and hardened rods. Likely you are uninformed to call a DPCV and scam because they are incorporated in Vermeer, John Deere, Caterpillar and many other premium manufacturer's equipment.


....


Link:   Hydraulic Toplink Headquarters

 
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greg_g
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2007-10-26          147408

SPAM Mark, not scam. SPAM as in unsolicited advertising. Both your posts are blatant advertisements, flagrantly using a six year old post as an unpaid vehicle with which to push your merchandise. I bet you either forgot - or didn't even know - that your firm used to post here as CCImports.

I enjoy reading this forum, and occasionally posting when I feel that I'm able to contribute information/advice/experience that may be of benefit to others. But I don't enjoy wading through obvious advertisements while doing so.

//greg// ....

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earthwrks
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2007-10-26          147409

Just because someone sells something with on it like the check valve, doesn't mean you have to sell a toplink with one it.

If they were necessary, then every single application for front or rear remotes would require this (redundant) valve. And I say redundant, because like Greg pointed out, the CUT already has that built in to the system.


I'm fairly convinced that valve setup is for an application OTHER than a toplink. Likely to keep from blowing or taxing a hydraulic system or for safety in the event a line blows. My manlift has these valves at the lift basket, but they are even closer to the cylinder so that there aren't fittings and hoses to blow. ....

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greg_g
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2007-10-26          147411

Dennis - you think you might consider nipping this thread in the bud before it gets unfriendly? IRONPEDDLER seems to be related Carter and Carter Machinery of Johnson City TN. CCM is already registered here under the user name CCIMPORTS. This guy is just using the discussion board to try and slip in some free advertising for CCM

//greg// ....

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DennisCTB
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2007-10-26          147412

Greg I am listening and monitoring. I deleted his last over the top insult. Hope his manners improve. ....

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mobilus
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2007-10-26          147413

I know that you guys are dealing with a serious incident here, but I've got a question for you. I spoke with my local dealer and he quoted me an $800 price on dual rear remotes. Is this a typical cost for this add-on? ....

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Ironpeddler
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2007-10-26          147414

Call Ronnie Bowman or email him at Tractorsmart.com. He can advise you on a Kubota. I am not affiliated with tractorsmart.com. ....


Link:   TractorSmart.com

 
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greg_g
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2007-10-26          147415

That $800 quote sounds like a Kubota price (I guess orange paint is expensive). I'm reasonably confident that you can go to a hydraulic shop with your request, and have the same thing done for less that half that figure. It's not much more complicated than supply and return fittings, two hoses, two control valves, four more hoses, four QD connectors, and a bracket. You might even be able to do it yourself.

//greg// ....

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earthwrks
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2007-10-27          147423

If your machine is like mine you just can't connect to the pump without going to the factory modular selector valve body first. Each remote you add adds another modular block which contains check valves, control valve and a relief valve.

If you go non-production or non-factory parts, you end up with a cobbled look like I had to go with. I use the one factory rear remote and divert it into 2, 4-way selector valves. This gives me 3 rear remotes. I had to do it this way as the factory control valve still is there which does the actual in-out, up-down, forward-backward depending on which selector or combination of valves is selected and waht I want to do.

I have a hyd. top link which is a permanent and dedicated circuit, and a hyd. quick attach plate which I made (like a skid steer Quick-Attach) which is also dedicated. It has two piloted check valves which added to the cost. There is only one non-dedicated circuit. I have about $500 in it. ....

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greg_g
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2007-10-27          147428

Mobilus - I just looked at your profile, and see you've got a L2800. That prompted me to look up the L2800 spec sheet, where I noticed that "3TP Top-N-Tilt" is available as an option. Don't know specifically how Kubota plumbs in their TNT package, but it's typically powered by a quad of remotes.

So the question now becomes; was that $800 quote for a full TNT package (to include 4 remotes)? or for the remotes only (no TNT)?

I also see a FEL in your profile. How is that plumbed into the hydraulic system? EarthWrks is a hydraulics guy. If he had more info about your current setup, he might be able to talk you through a self-installation.

//greg// ....

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mobilus
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2007-10-27          147448

Thanks, EW and Greg.

I'll check with the Kubota dealer on Monday to see if that includes four rear remotes. I'm thinking it was only two. In that case, going the way that EW went will be of great interest to me. I was bush hogging all day today and backed up over a lot of mesquite...it would have made it a lot easier if I had a hyd toplink. Of course, when we get a little rain (any time now, I hope) I'll be busy with the box blade. It has gotten just too dry to mess with it unless I have to. Anyway, I saw a setup on a B series 'bota the other day and that really got me thinking about adding it to mine. I'll ping you guys after I get the no kidding price on Monday. Thanks! ....

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earthwrks
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2007-10-27          147453

Mobilus you can always use a non-powered hydraulic top link setup like I used to have before I installed the rear remotes. ....

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mobilus
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2007-10-28          147470

EW, what do you mean, "non-powered hyd top link"?

I have seen ratcheting types...

Thanks,
Mark ....

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earthwrks
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2007-10-28          147471

Refer to Ironpeddler's picture with the double check valve.

Instead of the check valve, use a water or gas service ball valve with a nylon seat. The system has to be fully bled to behave like it were connected to live hydraulics. Basically, all you do is turn the valve to the open position, lift or drop the 3pt to the desired position and close the valve if you want a stiff top link; soft or limp top link, keep the valve open. I used this for many months before I installed the rear remotes. Once you have one of these you'll wonder how you got along without it. ....

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mobilus
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2007-10-28          147477

Thanks, EW. That makes perfect sense.

....

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earthwrks
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2007-10-28          147489

For ease of operation and building I kept the valve on the cylinder. But I had to remove my tool box and the safety triangle behind the seat to reach it from the seat. You could run a remote valve instead if you like and mount it to the ROPS for example. But I want to stress that fully bleeding the system is critical. Otherwise, it will be spongy to limp and act like an air sping/shock absorber as the trapped air inside compresses. ....

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hardwood
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2007-10-29          147493

EW; OK get the helment on. Please explain how the non powered top link can work. The top half of any hydrauic cylinder holds less fluid than the bottom half because of the volume that the cylinder rod displaces in the top half. When you contract the cylinder where does the extra fluid from the bottom half go? Frank. ....

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earthwrks
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2007-10-29          147494

Frank, the fluid just goes from one side to the other. ....

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hardwood
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2007-10-29          147495

EW; Go back to your high school physics rules, "A liquid cannot be compressed". If there is absolutely NO AIR in the cylinder, the volumes are different on either end of the cylinder because of the volume the rod dispaces on the upper half. This cannot possibly work without somewhere for the extra fluid from the lower half of the cylinder to escape to. My helmet and body armor are on so fire away. Frank. ....

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earthwrks
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2007-10-29          147519

WOW! My memory fails me and THIS is what I get--a full-on head butt. But this time I deserve it!

I thought about this all day. It's been about 3-1/2 - 4 years since I switched to powered. And this is what I came up with. I did have trouble bleeding it, which explains the always-changing and different displacements on either side of the piston. As I recall I think I ended up living with it. By it I mean having air in it which would explain the rod displacment and the sort of soft feel when fully extended or possibly fully retracted---I don't remember!

SO there you have it Frank. You win this one!

Thanks for keeping me honest :) ....

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hardwood
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2007-10-29          147521

EW; Hey, someimes the old Kraut wins one. Think I'll have a second, or third if Im not asleep by then Bud Lite. Frank. ....

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mobilus
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2007-10-29          147526

Guys, in a closed loop, the amount of fluid remains constant. There doesn't have to be anywhere else for the fluid to go other than on the opposite side of the puck. In this case, the difference in fluid capacity on each side of the puck doesn't matter, because only the amount on the shaft side is actually ever displaced. Of course that means that the puck will never bottom out on the retracted stroke.

Just my take on it.

Mark ....

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earthwrks
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2007-10-30          147534

A Kraut eh? Ever hear of Albert Von Kesselring of WWII? He's my great, great uncle.

Mobilus, Frank's right (for once---hehehe). If the piston didn't have a rod, which is unlikely, then you'd be right.

To prove this, take a glass of water almost full. Put your finger tip in it. Not much happens. Then sink your entire finger in. The level raises. The volume of water hasn't changed but the displacement has with the finger. ....

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hardwood
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2007-10-30          147535

EW; Hey thanks for the scientific explanation, Old Albert himself couldn't have did better. No, I didn't know of Albert, he must have invented something being he was a Kraut. I'm still a 100% Kraut, not many of us purebreds left. Frank Von Brainsindruber. ....

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mobilus
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2007-10-30          147536

Yeah EW, but you're introducing mass that wasn't already there when you filled the glass up. And it isn't the closed loop system that you originally described to me. I'll think on it today and come up with an analogy. You also said that it worked for you...right?

I agree with Frank only in that if there was air in the system would there be springiness, like the shock absorber you describe...air over oil. But take away the air and the piston stays where you put it as long as the valve is closed. The weight of the implement is what forces the hyd fluid from one side of the piston to the other, and closing the valve holds that position.

Y'all have a great day today.
Mark ....

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kthompson
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2007-10-30          147537

mobilus, the price you have from Kubota for the dual remotes is in the price range I got for dual remotes on a M 6800 Kubota that already had a single. I understood it inclued all levers and fittings and so forth. Have not found sufficient reason to add the second remote. kt ....

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hardwood
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2007-10-30          147544

Mobilus; Another way of describing the situaton. Using the example of a 3 inch diamater 8 inch stroke cylinder with a 1 inch diamater rod. The bottom half of the cylinder with the rod fully extended holds aprox.56.54 cu. in of fluid. the top half of the cylinder fully collapesd holds aprox. 50.26 cu. in of fluid. The 1 inch diamater rod 8 inches long displaces 6.28 cubic inches. Example; The cylinder all internal volumes top and bottom half completely full of fluid, absolutely no air, cylinder is fully extended, now collapse the cylinder displacing the 56.54 cu. in. of fluid from the lower half. this fluid has to go somewhere, the top half of the cylinder less the displacement the rod is 50.26 cu. in. leaving 6.28 cu. in. of fluid with no where to go. Frank. ....

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Murf
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2007-10-30          147545

Ok, without making this a long boring mathematical calculation, here's the straight .... stuff. ;)

I just happen to have the data for a (much larger) cylinder in front of me because I'm building a log-splitter for a friend of the family. This is obviously not a cylinder that would be used for an upper link, but the principles are the same regardless of the size of cylinder we are talking about.

In this case the cylinder is a 4" bore, with a 2" piston, and has a 24" stroke.

The rod side of the cylinder has a volume of 226 cubic inches, and the other side has a volume of 302 cubic inches, a difference of 76 cubic inches or 25% of the total volume.

So, if this cylinder were connected as described, with nothing but a line between the two ports with a valve in the middle, full of fluid, and the piston at full extension, there would be about 3.17 cubic inches (or 1.7 ounces) of fluid looking for a place to go for every inch the piston moved in from full extension.

Trust me, it wouldn't move in that situation, not without a geyser of fluid it wouldn't.

Best of luck. ....

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mobilus
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2007-10-30          147547

I really appreciate your answers, but...isn't there always a but...

In the toplink application, it wouldn't be necessary for the piston to fully retract. Ideally, yes, it would be great to get the maximum deflection of the implement, but the relatively small volume of non-moveable fluid wouldn't hamper the basic operation. With the valve closed, the piston would stay put, right?

I like the idea, and I have the means to purge air from the system...so, if the rear remotes plan doesn't work out, this could be a good interim solution.


Thanks!

Mark
....

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Murf
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2007-10-30          147548

Mark, it's one of those unchangeable laws of physics.

The statement "...the relatively small volume of non-moveable fluid wouldn't hamper the basic operation." is just plain wrong.

The volume of each side of a cylinder is different.

Fluid is NEITHER compressible nor expandable.

Unless you put a reservoir of some form in the system to allow for the excess fluid to be exhausted into and the required fluid to be draw in from, the cylinder will be absolutely locked solid, even without a valve.

You wouldn't need much of a reservoir, but you definitely DO NEED ONE for this idea to work.

Best of luck. ....

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mobilus
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2007-10-30          147549

EW, how did it work for you?

You've been very quiet, my friend. Did you bait me into something here? Huh? Huh?

Mark ....

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DRankin
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2007-10-30          147553

Frank, I got turned in several years ago for being racially bigoted by a female sergeant with really heavy strips.

My crime? A guy named Hunstiger used the "Kraut" word while joking around with a couple of police recruits named Kluge and Kraus.

We are now at the point where you can't even call yourself names without being punished for it!
....

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earthwrks
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2007-10-30          147558

Mark: Where have I been? Trying to pay bills before we get snow! (not really but it's been very cold here)

No I did not bait you. This is more than an idea---trust me I still have it on my 33D albeit it's powered now.

The springyness fully retracted, as I recall ended up being about 1-1/4" of piston pull out (the rod will not stay in due to the trapped air due to the difference in volumes) with a box scraper on it.

Murf, the best I can recall is I must have bled it to the point I got a geyser and figured it was full---but that geyser was due to the volume difference like you pointed out (I filled it in a pail full of oil). In my application of pulling a box scraper, it pushes the cylinder closed so you don't care about the trapped air which compresses. ....

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earthwrks
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2007-10-30          147559

Frank: Von Kesslering led the invasion of Italy in WWII. My great uncle of the same surname took a lot of flack at roll call when he served in the US Army as he was going there to basically fight his own uncle. ....

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mobilus
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2007-10-30          147561

Thanks, EW! I knew that it was feasable. Just kidding about baiting...

I called my Kubota dealer about rear remotes and he suggested that I get the top-n-tilt installed, and maybe add a circuit off of that. Sounds good, and now he's researching the top-n-tilt option, 'cause he said that the books don't show it available for the L2800 through L3400. But it IS available for the L4400. Doesn't make sense, so he's checking into it for me. If anyone knows anyone with the TNT on a L2800 or L3400, I'd really like to hear from them.

Hopefully I can convince Mama that it would make a great Christmas present.

Anyway, the saga continues... ....

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DRankin
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2007-10-30          147568

Keep us posted. If Kubota does not list a Tn'T we can probably steer you in the right direction to get something that will work. ....

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greg_g
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2007-10-30          147571

The PDF below is where I saw the 3PT Top-N-Tilt as a L2800 option. Since it's considered a removeable implement, it can hardly be plumbed in permanently. Even though I've never seen a TNT-equipped L2800, I can't imagine it would be connected by any means other than two sets of remotes; one pair for the hydraulic toplink, the other pair for the hydraulic sidelink. So in my mind, the L2800 TNT installation would necessarily have to include them

//greg// ....


Link:   L2800 Spec Sheet

 
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kthompson
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2007-10-31          147579

Mobilus, so you are going to give this to your wife for Christmas? Great. My wife likes her ztr mower very well. Now I give her new blades for birthday and mother's day. Much better choice than say a "shotgun". kt ....

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Murf
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2007-10-31          147583

Mobilus, there's a cheaper way to do it, if you don't mind a bit of fiddling around.

Put 2 T-fittings and then 2 shut-off ball valves (or 12v power valves) in the bucket curl circuit just after the FEL valve block, on each new outlet put a female QD fitting. Close the ball valves and plug the lines for the hydraulic upper link into the new QD fittings.

Hydraulic hoses are relatively cheap and getting a pair of hoses 5' longer to reach the loader control won't cost you much at all. Most of the FEL mounted snowplows I've done for people used the rear remotes and long hoses for the power angle on the blade, the cost isn't much at all.

Best of luck. ....

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mobilus
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2007-10-31          147586

Murf, would this still allow full bucket functionality? ....

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greg_g
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2007-10-31          147588

Assuming you're talking HTL only - and not a full TNT - Murf's suggestion would give you an either/or situation. With the ball valves in one position, your joystick would operate the loader bucket (curl). In the other position, they'd operate the HTL. A full TNT rigged in this manner would require a 2nd set of hoses and ball valves tapped into the loader arm circuit (lift/lower).

If you never needed the bucket and the HTL/TNT at the same time, it would be a less expensive approach. It's a lot of plumbing though, that might at some point become intrusive. Personally, I'd prefer a proper set of remotes with their own dedicated control valves.

//greg// ....

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Murf
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2007-10-31          147589

Mobilus, if you use a single 3 position 4 way solenoid (12 volt) operated valves you would then just have a switch to flip to alternate between the FEL joystick powering the remote or the bucket. A decent one will cost you about $200.

You could do the same thing with a manual valve for about $50.

Best of luck. ....

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earthwrks
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2007-10-31          147612

BTW, the non-powered unit I spoke of is also used in a different application. In a larger version (4" x 36" cylinder), they're used on tilt-bed, drive-on equipment trailers. They use 1" lines on them and a much larger ball valve, but the idea is the same. The purpose of them on trailers is to provide a controlled tilt-back or -down motion depending on the placement of the machine. It also provides a secondary lock when the bed is fully down.

These versions do not use a reservoir either so they work around having air in the system as a cushion if you will on the down stroke. ....

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mobilus
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2007-11-02          147673

Greg, Murf, and EW: Thanks for all the great advice.

Here's what I found out from my Kubota dealer: For some reason, Kubota doesn't offer a TnT option for the L2800. And when I asked him to look up the cost involved in the dual rear remotes, he quoted me $950. I will NEVER pay that for rear remotes. So that got me to thinking. Tell me what you think.

I could get a three spool valve and mount it on my right fender. Tap into the hydraulics coming off the FEL block under the right floorboard by using tees, then run the lines up. From there I could fab my own holder for the female ends on the rear remotes, and run a pair of hoses up to the FEL grapple I plan to build.

I can't see ever needing more than that. ....

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hardwood
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2007-11-02          147680

Mobilbus; I have did just as you describe with farm tractos in the past to create a second and or third circut, on a one circut tractor. I mounted the circut selector valve on the right fender, ran the single circut from the tractor thru it and could select which circut I wanted to use. It was kind of a clumbsy looking situation when done, too many hoses running too many places that seemed to always be in the way or fitings that leaked wirh an oily mess on the fender , etc. I did then and still do use the Surplus center asm a source of valves, fittings, etc. A double or triple stck spool valve with all the fittings, couplers and the rest will not be cheap, but likely less than Kubots. So all my rambling is to get you to wonder if it is worth the cost difference to have something rather cobbled up instead of a neater factory built system. Frank. ....

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mobilus
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2007-11-03          147689

Frank, you made a good point about the tractor fender. I took a good look at possible locations for the valves and decided that right under the loader controls is a better place. I'd fab a bracket up that would use existing bolt holes. I wouldn't mind a Kubota setup, but I think I can do the work with Surplus Center parts.

Thanks!

Mark
....

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Whelchel
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2007-11-13          148182

I have a JD 2320 that I would like to put a hydraulic top link on for dumping my carry all. It is set up with control and 4 hydraulic connections for a front end loader. I don't have a front end loader so they are not being used. Can I plug into them for this use?

I have never used hydraulics before so I don't know what check valves, etc are.

Thanks,
Mike ....

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Ironpeddler
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2007-11-13          148186

Yes you could use the loaded couplers provided they are after the loader valve. ....

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Whelchel
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2007-11-13          148187

What are "loaded couplers"? I have four connections (look like quick disconnect) under the right floor board. I assume they are meant for bucket up, down, tilt up, tilt down. There is nothing plugged into them now.

Thanks Mike ....

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candoarms
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2007-11-13          148188

Mike,

You can easily make use of the loader valve when operating your top link, but you'll have a set of two hoses running along the right side of the tractor, next to your seat, and then wrapping around behind you, before attaching to the top link.

It will work, but it won't be pretty.

Joel ....

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greg_g
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2007-11-13          148195

He meant loader couplers Mike. But if you have no loader, it stands to reason that you don't have any loader valves (most commonly joystick controllers nowadays). Hooking a hydraulic toplink to two of the existing four QD connectors would not work, unless and until you add a valve to extend/retract the HTL. They're typically associated with three position levers; one direction for extend, the other direction for retract. The center position is where the controller stays to keep the HTL at the desired length.

Somebody that's more familiar with hydraulics can contribute the industry standard names, best I can do is the generic description.

//greg//
....

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Murf
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2007-11-13          148196

From Mikes first post "It is set up with control and 4 hydraulic connections for a front end loader.".

Also Mike, just to add to Joels comment, if you have a decent hydraulic shop nearby, almost every mid-sized city has one, they should be able to extend the existing system you have down the back in a fairly permanent way to allow you to have dual remotes at the back until (or if) you put a FEL on your machine.

Best of luck. ....

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greg_g
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2007-11-13          148204

I wasn't sure of his definition of controller Murf. The last three loaders I've used had joysticks that were part of the loader frame. When the loader came off, the joystick/control valves and QD hoses came off with it. That said, none of them was a JD

//greg// ....

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Whelchel
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2007-11-13          148209

Thanks for the help. Should I look for a HTL that has a check valve? Any other considerations? Any good places to buy one?

Thanks
Mike ....

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greg_g
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2007-11-13          148216

You're putting the cart in front of the horse Mike, unless you're already positive that you are fully equipped to do nothing more than simply attach a HTL and go.

As far as the check valve, it's just a nice-to-have thing rather than a NEED-to-have thing. If the tractor hydraulic circuit that supports the HTL is in good working condition, I consider the DPCV to be an unnecessary expense. On the other hand, if you've got a compromised circuit - the DPCV can help. But in that case, I'd spend the money to fix the hydraulic circuit rather than buy a DPCV bandaid.

Understand though, that this is just one man's opinion. I have a HTL with no check valves. The integrigy of my tractor's hydraulic circuits (remotes) is good enough to hold the HTL anywhere I set it under any load. A DPCV would be wasted on me.

//greg// ....

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candoarms
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2007-11-14          148217

Mike,

Before you go out and purchase a hydraulic top link cylinder, please visit the following web site.

In the event that this link doesn't post here for some reason, please visit the Carter and Carter Machinery website (1233 CARROLL CREEK ROAD, JOHNSON CITY, TN 37601).

Look for the Top-N-Tilt "Information Needed" link, about halfway down the page.


____________________________________

1. What is the Brand, model, and year of your tractor?

2. Is your tractor's hydraulic system closed center, or open center?

3. What is the length of the Original Equipment Manufacturer's (OEM) top-link?

4. How does your side link mount at the top and bottom?

5. What is the length of the fixed side link?

6. Does your tractor have a front end loader? If so, does the control valve have a power beyond port on it?

7. Does your tractor have exterior rear couplers?

8. If you want to purchase a complete system, where do you want to mount the control valve? You will need to mount the control valve first, in order to determine the length of the hoses.

____________________________________


You may not need to provide your supplier with all of this information, unless you are also planning on purchasing a hydraulic side link, to go along with a hydraulic top link.

(A hydraulic side link would be used with implements such as a 3-point mounted back blade. It would be used to lift and lower one end of the blade ---- as opposed to changing the attack angle of the blade from front to back, as you would with a hydraulic top link.)

See the link below.

Joel
....


Link:   Carter and Carter Machinery Top-N-Tilt

 
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Murf
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2007-11-14          148221

According to several websites, the price of the HTL in the link above is about double the price of a regular cylinder that will do the same thing and available in your local area over the counter.

IMHO a hydraulic side link is one of those things that is rarely used, except in special circumstances that the 'average' user rarely encounters. It is handy for things like cutting a slope to build a crown on a driveway, but most tractors these days have a crank adjusted 3pth leveler that will do the same thing for free.

Best of luck. ....

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candoarms
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2007-11-14          148223

Murf,

I asked for a price quote on adding rear remote hydraulics to my Kubota B2100HSB. The following parts are needed to make use of the rear outlet on the tractor, which is located just below the right side of the seat, or just above the right rear axle.

The following items would be needed to add rear remote hydraulics to my tractor.

1 each, 6C040-95100 hyd. Block $70.25

1 each, BL7303 remote valve kit $376.00 plus inbound freight

1 each, B7323 hose kit $159.00 plus inbound freight

Prices do not include the hydraulic top link cylinder, nor the necessary hoses and fittings needed to connect the hydraulic top link cylinder to the rear remote outlets.

Add an additional 300 dollars (estimate) for the hydraulic top link and necessary fittings and hoses.

To do it properly, we're talking about $1000.00 for the entire setup.

Joel ....

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Ironpeddler
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2007-11-14          148224

Take the Surplus Center link below.
$109.95- wrong ends and NO double piloted check valve

CCM CAT I $185- CAT 1 forged ends- Hardened and chromed Rod- Double Piloted Check Valve

I do not see much difference in the price when you count what the features are worth. Not everyone can weld so the out of the box link from CCM is more marketable. The CCM cylinder is used OEM by Landini, Fent, FIAT, SAME, Claas, Deutz, Valmet and others in Europe. What are you getting with the over the counter cylinder? Will it last? In the end the best value might not be the lowest initial price. ....


Link:   Surplus Center

 
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candoarms
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2007-11-14          148226

Ironpeddler,

If I'm not mistaken, the top link cylinder I need would have to have a 3/4" swivel eye rod end, in order to match up with the Cat 1 top link pin size on my Cat 1 implements. The cylinder you posted a link to at Surplus Center has a 1 inch swivel eye rod end.

Finding an off-the-shelf cylinder with the proper sized pin holes isn't so easy.......making the CCM cylinder more convenient, if nothing else.

Joel ....

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Murf
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2007-11-14          148228

Joel, all you really need is the $70 hydraulic block and a standard over the counter valve and line set, both available locally (or shipped to your door) for about 2/3rds the price of the 'bota valve alone.

The need for a second valve (the check valve) in the system is completely lost on me, maybe somebody can explain why I need to close off a hydraulic line twice?

Some "Blonde" thing maybe, to be totally, totally, for sure, for sure?

BTW, just to be fair in this discussion of the merits of the above referred to HTL compared to a regular, not junk, cylinder, it should be made clear that "Ironpeddler" is in fact Carter & Carter themselves so maybe a little biased in opinions.

Best of luck. ....

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candoarms
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2007-11-14          148229

Murf,

You're right again. You usually are.

However, in my particular case, purchasing any part locally is out of the question.

It would be nice to live near a big city sometimes......but not very danged often. hehehe.

As for closing off the hyd. cylinder twice -- as with the check valve assembly installed on the CCM top link cylinder -- I'm not at all convinced that this is necessary.

It might prevent a small amount of cylinder drift over a period of time, but most people adjust and readjust the top link so often that it likely wouldn't make a hill of beans difference.

In my case, that check valve wouldn't make ANY difference at all, as I plan on using my HTL strictly with my cement mixer........which will be extended and retracted continuously throughout the day as I mix and dump.

In my case, a small amount of cylinder drift would go entirely unnoticed. For all of my other implements, the rigid mechanical top link is just fine. I'd leave my hydraulic top link cylinder attached to the cement mixer, rather than leave it attached to the tractor.

It seems like a lot of expense and trouble to go through just to make proper use of a 3-point cement mixer, but at 90 -100 dollars per cubic yard of ready-mix concrete, it would pay for itself rather quickly.

Unfortunately, my used cement mixer didn't come with a hydraulic top link cylinder. Most new ones now include the cylinder.........and they DO NOT have check valves in them.

See the link below


Joel ....


Link:   King Kutter Cement Mixer with Hydraulic Top Link

 
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greg_g
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2007-11-14          148235

The Cat 2 I bought a few years back came from a fabricator in Iowa. I think I stated above that it was under $180 delivered, not including hoses. I found the guy with a simple internet search. Try the one I've linked to below. ....


Link:   HTLs online

 
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Murf
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2007-11-14          148236

Joel, according to my own experience, we're pretty hard on equipment working commercially compared to 'homeowners', and also the hydraulics shop we use, a BIG one at that, most times you get 'drifting' as you call it, it's caused by hyd. fluid either going past the seals on the piston or the gland seals where the piston emerges from the cylinder.

In neither of those cases will a check valve a single bit of good.

Joel, these days "local" is the computer in front of you.

As for the fancy swivel ends, that is IMHO an entirely unnecessary option, just like the check valve. Any cylinder that fits between the two sides, has a suitable length & stroke combination, and takes the required 3/4" pins will work. BTW, they sell adapter sleeves that step the 3/4" pin up to fit a 1" hole for about $2 at any Ag store.

If you are only using a cylinder for a dump operation, you could use a standard (read "real cheap" and available anywhere) implement cylinder and an extra lever to make a 9" or 12" cylinder give you lots of power and effective stroke length.

Best of luck. ....

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greg_g
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2007-11-14          148262

Mike/Joel - here's some more:
http://search.ebay.com/hydraulic-top-link_W0QQ_trksidZm37QQcatrefZC6QQcoactionZcompareQQcoentrypageZsearchQQcopagenumZ1QQfposZ42408QQfpos1Z42408QQfpos2Z42408QQfromZR10QQfsooZ1QQfsopZ1QQftrtZ1QQftrvZ1QQsabfmtsZ1QQsacatZQ2d1QQsadisZ200QQsadis1Z100QQsadis2Z100QQsaobfmtsZinsifQQsargnZQ2d1QQsaslcZ2QQsbrftogZ1QQsofocusZunknown
and
http://search-desc.ebay.com/search/search.dll?sofocus=bs&sbrftog=1&catref=C6&from=R10&_trksid=m37&satitle=hydraulic+toplink&sacat=-1%26catref%3DC6&fts=2&sargn=-1%26saslc%3D2&sadis=200&fpos=42408&sabfmts=1&saobfmts=insif&ftrt=1&ftrv=1&saprclo=&saprchi=&fsop=1%26fsoo%3D1
(bottom half of page).
And that's just eBay. No shortage of them out there, ya just gotta look

//greg// ....

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denwood
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2007-11-21          148541

Murf, I know you are right about the possibility of leaking piston seal at least half the time. If the force is trying to extend the cylinder like a top link or side link, a vaccuum could be created. If the force is trying to compress a cylinder and no fluid is running out on the ground, and you are still getting drift, doesn't it have to be the valve since there is greater volume of fluid being displaced by a compressing cylinder than could be held on the other side of the piston seal where the shaft takes up space? I have yet to own a tractor that doesn't have drift down on the boom and none leaked, so I assume valves are not to be trusted much. I have thought about it a lot, but I am going to buy the check valve cylinders for top and tilt. If you buy the best and it still doesn't work you can blame someone else. If you go cheap and it doesn't work you have only a fool to blame. ....

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greg_g
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2007-11-21          148548

No reason to challenge your personal preference. But before you actually commit to a purchase, think about this; I've stated here more than once that I use my HTL extensively, it's seldom removed from my tractor. It's held 1600 pound jouncing round bales across rough hay fields and pastures - without moving a centimeter. No DPCV, just a good cylinder on a good hydraulic circuit. I wish I had remotes on my 2nd tractor, because I trust that cylinder enough to buy a second one.

So applying your thought process to my actual experience, the question then becomes this; if a manufacturer thinks it's necessary to put check valves on his cylinders, what does that say about his confidence in the CYLINDER?

//greg// ....

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earthwrks
Join Date: Dec 2003
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2007-11-21          148549

Greg, there may be a reason for the check valve that involves insurance. It's possible that the product liability insurance underwriters dictated "either put one on or you're not covered". The underwriter may have ahd a nasty settlement recently and is just CYA-ing. Just a thought. ....

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denwood
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 542 Quarryville PA
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2007-11-21          148550

As far as trusting the cylinder, just like Murf said a bad cylinder will not be fixed by the check valve in top link application. It is the tractor valve that will be isolated and sealed and obviously you have a good valve now. I don't have good valves and my JD4300 only has 500 hours. The valve I will use for top and tilt is a hand me down triple from a golf course mower with 1500 hours. I have no reason to trust it and even if it is good, how long will it be good. I wouldn't even trust a new one to be sealed tight for hundreds of hours. I may be the foolish one to spend the extra $60 but I hate being mad at myself and $60 is just insurance that I won't have to be. ....

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greg_g
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2007-11-21          148553

Check VALVE, yes. In the singular. And WHERE that (one) check valve is located in the circuit determines where flow is controlled. It could configured to prevent cylinder leakdown OR it could be configured to remedy control valve seepage.

But the device in question here is a DPCV, where the D represents double. The way my hydraulics man explained it to me, the DPCV performs both functions. So. Given that majority HTLs are purchased new - then installed on USED tractors - it should be reasonable to assume that the cylinder won't leak - at least for a while. Initially then, the DPCV would be of use ONLY if the tractor on which the HTL is installed has a leaky hydraulic circuit. Maybe down the road a piece then - when the cylinder starts getting tired - the DPCV will start doing the other half of its job.

I'm going to speculate - that in the case of owners who take good care of their equipment - a DPCV will be an interesting piece of plumbing to explain to enquiring neighbors, but probably will seldom if ever actually do any meaningful work. I'm sure there's a place for the DPCV equipped HTLs, just not on my farm.

//greg// ....

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Ironpeddler
Join Date: Jul 2003
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2007-11-21          148555

We have checked thousands of tractors and you would not believe the amount of tractors still under warranty the have substantial bleed back pressure in their OEM rear couplers. It is such a problem that most of the round baler manufacturers have piloted check valves on their gate cylinder circuit. The first thing we do if possible is to check for bleed back pressure on their rear couplers. We have even had customers with disc mowers that have single action cylinders say they have to watch their disc mower cylinder so it does not lift the mower off the ground.
Most customers do not realize how big a problem the bleed by is in the industry because they are only exposed to a small number of situations. Dealers selling large numbers of equipment using the OEM rear couplers can tell you it is a big problem. These tractors are worked and live in the field 30-40 years. If a valve has bleed by from the get go, it will not get better as it gets older but usually these circuits can be rebuilt. But these OEM systems don't get rebuilt until it becomes egregious. ....

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kthompson
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2007-11-21          148561

If already addressed forgive me; so check valves do not fail or wear? kt ....

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Murf
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2007-11-21          148563

Greg, we're on the same wavelength, it's something to mystify onlookers to me too, if the remote valve on one of my tractors leaked, I'd fix it, period.

However, I guess I'm luckier than most owners, in a fleet of 70+ tractors that gets renewed every couple of years and has for nearly 20 years now, I've only ever had two that had a bad valve, and then it was just a faulty seal, probably nicked during assembly. A free seal kit replaced under warranty solved the problem permanently.

Strange that out of over 500 tractors I've owned, only 2 that had a problem. Even after thousands of hours of heavy work, no problems.

Kenneth, you're thinking the same thing I am, the DPCV is as, if not more likely to fail than the valve itself.

If the remote valve is an external one, a reseal is about as expensive as a trip to a fast food restaurant.

Best of luck. ....

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denwood
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2007-11-21          148564

I buy shoes, they wear out or fail, I buy more. I don't run around bare foot worrying if I buy shoes they may wear out or fail. ....

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denwood
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2007-11-21          148568

Murf, if you scoop up a bucket of dirt, raise the boom, shut off the tractor and come back in an hour, it has not drifted at all? It would be shocking to me to see 1 tractor that didn't drift after an hour. Now I have not owned hundreds, but I have owned several and used many that were in all stages of life from brand new to last leg and they all drifted, some just slowly and some you could almost watch. It has alway been something that irritated me as to why they just cannot design a valve that seals period. The closest I have is my Takeuchi excavator and it can stay up empty overnight but it does eventually go down. It has 2500 hours on all original stuff so it is very impressive to me. ....

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Murf
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2007-11-21          148570

Denwood, some of the FELs do drift a bit, but I've never left one up more than a few hours so I wouldn't know about that part of it much, I was speaking about the rear remotes and the HTLs.

We often will have a box scraper on the back of a machine for counter balance and work all day (10 to 12 hours or more sometimes) without any drift in it at all. Most of our box blades are 7' models that weigh ~1,000 pounds.

I don't think I understand the 'shoes' comment, I wear shoes too, but only one pair at a time. To me, a check valve behind a control valve, is wearing 2 pairs of shoes, one on top of the other, in case the first pair fails. Doesn't make much sense to me at all.

Best of luck. ....

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machere
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 4 Live Oak, Florida
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2008-02-27          151741

Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg Erceg | view 30460
Is there anywhere one can buy a hydraulic top link with hoses, without having to fabricate it? I have been reading some of the boards, and it appears as though people have had to weld the end pieces onto hydraulic cylinders they purchase at TSC and other such stores. I have a Boomer with two ports to the rear that I want to plug in a top link so as to make better use of my box blade. Thanks in advance.


I use hydraulic top links on all my tractors. There are several places that sell them if you do not want to build your own. One place that sells a nice unit that is fairly cheap is: CARTER & CARTER MACHINERY, INC.
1233 CARROLL CREEK ROAD, JOHNSON CITY, TN 37601
423-282-6969
info@ccmachinery.com ....

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newholland10
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 27 virginia
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2008-02-27          151743

i worked for ford/newholland/and now case newholland.i installed many hydraulic top links.you can get a kit almost from every dealership.pricey.i built my own.very easy.alittle messy but much cheaper.i suggest northern hydraulics/tisco/ ....

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eternalwolf
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 3 Arkansas
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2009-09-25          165944

SPAM removed by Moderator Murf.

Advertising inquiries should be directed to the boards owner Dennis.
....

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kwschumm
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2009-09-25          165946

Quote:
Originally Posted by eternalwolf | view 165944
Here's something new. A self-contained air over hydraulic ram. No hoses. Installs quickly and is self adjusting. What's really nice is that it can be moved from tractor to tractor quickly.


You're in Arkansas and the company is in Arkansas. Any affiliation? ....

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eternalwolf
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 3 Arkansas
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2009-09-26          165947

Yes, sorry. Didn't mean to sound unaffiliated. The device is new and being marketed to manufacturers now. It's been field tested now for nearly six months and has done very well so far. ....

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Ironpeddler
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 111 Science Hill,KY USA
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2009-09-26          165948

One disadvantage to this link is adjusting on the fly. You still have to stop to adjust your toplink. You can purchase 2 hydraulic toplinks for the price of one of these.


Edited by Moderator Murf to remove advertising references. ....

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