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What is your take on the Big-3 hearings

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earthwrks
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 3853 Home Office in Flat Rock, Michigan
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2008-12-04          158370

Most of you know I'm within a stone's throw of the Big-3's (that's the DOMESTIC Big-3) headquarters. And in one capacity or other I have worked at/for/with them indirectly including Nissan, Toyota, Saab, Volvo and Rolls-Royce.

Here, nearly one auto job supports in one way or another five other jobs here in Michigan. Nationally it is 1:10.

Opinions?


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auerbach
Join Date: Sep 2007
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2008-12-04          158379

Give them money to keep paying employees to keep building 100 models of cars that consumers either can't or won't buy? But if the three amalgamated, centralized and rationalized, and the unions backed off, that should work. ....

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greg_g
Join Date: Jan 2004
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2008-12-04          158380

I don't see an auto industry problem, I see a Michigan problem. Why should the citizens of 49 states - several of which coincidentally host auto manufacturers that don't have their hand out - why should the citizens of 49 states be forced to pick up the slack for one that hosts 3 corporations that have run themselves into the ground?

In my mind, these 3 don't deserve "bailout money". If they truly need help; fire those responsible for the current mess, correct or reverse those conditions which put them in this position - then ask for a loan. It worked for Chrysler in 1980 and Boeing in 2003. Except in this case, anticipate that they'll grab a loan - then declare bankruptcy. Ensure that the terms of any taxpayer funded loan preclude that.

//greg// ....

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kwschumm
Join Date: Feb 2003
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2008-12-04          158382

The Big 3 need to learn how to compete. If they can't compete then they should go belly up. Government already funds too many make work jobs. ....

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candoarms
Join Date: Mar 2007
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2008-12-05          158383

Earthwrks,

I don't believe the U.S. auto makers are at fault for what happened in this case.

The "Big 3" are caught between a government that demands higher gas mileage, lower emissions, excessive safety equipment, etc.....and the consumer, who wants new automobiles without having to pay for excessive amounts of air bags, excessive emissions controls, nor put up with those little tiny engines that don't make any horsepower.

The U.S. government has forced our auto-makers to build vehicles that the American public doesn't want. It really is that simple.

Now the government is going to ask me to bail out the auto-makers, because they can't sell the vehicles the government has forced them to make.

This country is getting closer and closer to the old U.S.S.R. with every passing day.

The answer -- in this, and nearly every other case -- is to give Congress a swift kick in the hindquarters. I wish more Americans would vote to kick those clowns out of office.....as I do.

Joel ....

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AnnBrush
Join Date: Mar 2004
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2008-12-05          158389

"nor put up with those little tiny engines that don't make any horsepower"

You are in the minority here - the more I can squeeze out of my gallon of gas in my little corolla the better - the rest of the US buying public seems to agree.

"The U.S. government has forced our auto-makers to build vehicles that the American public doesn't want. It really is that simple"

Not so - the foreign auto makers are making cars (in the US) under the same rules as the US ones are - they seem to be able to make cars the US customer wants.

This calamity is self inflicted and has little to do with the govt. US auto manufacturers had to make cars with big profit margins (SUV's and Light duty trucks) to stay in business as their total costs per delivered car are higher. This is due in large part to the fact that their legacy and current total employee costs (not just cost per hour) are about twice what the foreign (but made in the US) manufacturers are. When their sputtering business plan ran up against high gas prices and a faltering economy no one wanted to buy a SUV or truck. People started buying smaller economy vehicles. These smaller vehicles provide nowhere near the profit as does a SUV and so the manufacturer (already in a precarious financial position) tanks because they cant make the high margins they need to support their cost structure.

They need to file for bankruptcy - one will probably go insolvent) - and reorganize. Union jobs will have total pay packages about half of what they are now and the co's will be able to focus on selling cars people will actually buy. ....

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earthwrks
Join Date: Dec 2003
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2008-12-05          158391

Okay. A few questions:

How many of you have stock in the auto industry?

Anyone have family retired or working for the B3 or a supplier? And if so, does that influence how you see the situation? ....

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greg_g
Join Date: Jan 2004
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2008-12-05          158395

Not a stock owner, I sorta like to think I've been smarter than that.

As far as family retired or working for the B3 or a supplier influencing my opinion - no. But why should that influence our responses to your original post? The vast majority of American taxpayers have no vested interest in financial problems that pretty obviously originate in Michigan. And those who DON'T pay taxes, would only care if the issue affected their own handouts.

FWIW - whether or not she's affected by your 2nd question - I think Ann's response was right on the money.

//greg// ....

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yooperpete
Join Date: Jan 2004
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2008-12-05          158397

I'm a supplier to the auto industry and fear if they file chapter 11 that I will be holding the bag on more than $150,000.00 of product that was recently shipped in the last 60 days. If they file, they keep the merchandise and I get nothing. Bankrupcy courts also go back about 6 months and force you to give back payments in that time period to redistribute, first to those that have secured loans/sales.

If they file, that means my privately owned business will most likely fail? Merry Christmas and Happy New Year!

I always wave the U.S. flag here. American cars are lots better than many suggest. When they said on "Good Morning America" that the execs may not make it to D.C. driving there cars that was a slap in the face.

I agree that there is waste, high wages and rediculous legacy costs that the big 3 must condend with. Something needs to be done! ....

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earthwrks
Join Date: Dec 2003
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2008-12-05          158398

Yooper: Sounds like you may need to go belly up just to protect your ASSets. A fabricator friend was screwed by the same client I had (who didn't screw me) for $4000 under that 6-month go-back. I spoke to other guys who have been taken for $150,000 by other guys. This same jerk had boasted to me while I was working for him that he gone bankrupt twice before soley because his accountant said it was time to keep some profits. I got out before he could get me. And a year has passed so I'm in the clear.

I have to wonder what happens if you simply don't have the money if they go back 6 months? BTW, a majority of those funds don't even go to creditors---they go to the so-called Trustees who take that money as fees. They were really upset with me that I either owed more than the equipment was worth, or was not desirable to resell like a gas engine dump truck, or a had a UCC filing gainst it (no UCC filing ---they take it and sell it for pennies on a dollar)

Greg, I emerged from Chapter 7 last March so I know the cascade effect is real. Right now it's Michigan, soon it will be nationwide. 90% of my customers work(ed) or are related to the auto industry. Simply put, if someone doesn't have a job, they have no money to eat let alone get work done.

In the bigger scheme of things, when it comes to the economy it's like playing musical chairs. ....

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greg_g
Join Date: Jan 2004
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2008-12-05          158399

Quote:
Originally Posted by earthwrks | view 158398
Simply put, if someone doesn't have a job, they have no money to eat let alone get work done. In the bigger scheme of things, when it comes to the economy it's like playing musical chairs.
Well, not for the next four years anyway - we're about to enter into the ObamaZone. What little wealth I've been able to accumulate - is soon going to be "redistributed". Presumably the recipients will include those who run out of food while playing musical chairs.

//greg// ....

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hardwood
Join Date: Dec 2002
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2008-12-05          158411

EW; I don't have an answer, only opinions. Saving them is probably the only choice, with some limits and restrictions. First the existing managment at vastly reduced salarys should have a timeline of one year to turn things around, if not the non performing ones have their remaining assets liquidated back to the taxpayers. I realize that, "free trade", "it's a world economy now", and all that yammer come into play in this, but as many of you have known for quite a while, I have never bought or plan to buy a non domestic name on an auto or truck. Every non domestic unit sold here is just one more nail in big three's coffin, and should have a tax or tarrif high enough to discourage their sale here, again only opinion on my part. I have absolutely no faith in our new president being able to do any better than the current admistration, I too plan to make some changes in where my assets are held before he gets into power. ....

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cutter
Join Date: Feb 2000
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2008-12-05          158412

The auto industry suffers from the same sickness as the government. So we have one virus fixing another.

Government has not made it easy for US automakers, nor have the unions or environmentalists. ....

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earthwrks
Join Date: Dec 2003
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2008-12-05          158416

Unions. Who here has worked in the auto industry?

As a business owner myself albeit small, unions are a necessary evil. My dad was a union carpenter, and later a business owner. Unless you have worked for the car companies you have no idea of the ingrained anamosity that exists between a car company's mangement and their employees. And between the company and their suppliers. I worked 10 years for a supplier for the Big 3 and the nearly all the foreign makers. I was in a unique postion where I befriended the sales and engineering people and got to hear stories that would make your blood curdle. The B3 would beat us up so badly over price they demanded to see our books and then would literally dictate what profit we were to make---what other business does that and gets away with it? To top it off they would come back a few months later and tell us to reduce the price even more. When I left 10 years ago it got to the point we were having to wait as much as 6 months to year to get paid from them. In some cases they would renegotiate the payments even lower. The culture eventually invaded our company to the point we had internal departments competing for profitability--"profit centers" they called them. For example, office supplies used to be free to any department--just go to the stock office and request it. Then one day that stock office became a profit center. You had to pay for EVERYTHING. SO what happened? Some managers whose bonuses were now tied to their staff's spending told their staff not to buy ANYTHING--i.e. STEAL IT from another department. I came in one day and my desk had been ransacked by another department. I called this "internal cannibalism". The company went from 3,500 employees world wide with 35 plants to zero a few years later after the owner killed himself--he got caught up in not paying HIS suppliers just like what was done to him.

My point? Unions were created to keep management from abusing the workers---plain and simple. Unions in one form or another will be with us until Kingdom come.

Just one man's perspective.

I do agree, however it is time for change. But old habits die hard, The auto industry has 100 years of history and all of it isn't necessarily good. ....

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kthompson
Join Date: Oct 2005
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2008-12-05          158418

One comment on Unions, if each side does not respect the other you can not make them. If they don't realize it is in their best interest to treat all honest and fair then you end up with such a mess as the auto makers are. It is my impression many of the non big 3 auto makers plants are not union and have good relationships between all parties. ....

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cutter
Join Date: Feb 2000
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2008-12-05          158419

Can't have our cake and eat it too. Unions were needed when children were used as slaves and sweat shops were the norm but what has occurred in the auto industry, teacher's unions, government employee unions etc is driving the companies/taxpayers into bankruptcy.

I have seen some places a union works, others they simply run the entity into the ground (or taxes into the sky) with ridiculous demands. Does management/government need to be thrown out as well? Absolutely, they signed the contracts!!

Another perspective. What needs to happen is a middle ground but unfortunately everybody has their hands in the pot. Just saying :) ....

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earthwrks
Join Date: Dec 2003
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2008-12-09          158478

Don't kill the messenger, okay guys? Here's a website that has been plastered on our local TV stations and in the newspapers---maybe you saw it about what has been happening about the topic. Hints: Alabama Gov. Shelby, a "Boy" and a "cott"--you do the math.

We're all brothers here--north and south, east and west--and this is just a discussion amongst friends, so don't take this out of context or personally, 'cept for Kenny :) ....


Link:   Controversial website--enter at your own risk

 
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kwschumm
Join Date: Feb 2003
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2008-12-09          158479

Now I know where to go on my next vacation :)
....

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hardwood
Join Date: Dec 2002
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2008-12-09          158480

Mud can be thrown in both directions, don't the folks in Alabama who pay taxes have a stake in this too? As I understand todays banter fifteen billion is the upper limit with a government watchdog overseeing how the cash is spread around. Some say keep the government out of it, but remember who government is, we are furnishing the jack and hopefully expect it back someday, so this "Watchdog" better be a pretty accountable person, or preferably a committe. If we don't do this I can see some undesireable mid east money just waiting for a chance to get control of the big three. ....

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kwschumm
Join Date: Feb 2003
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2008-12-09          158484

When there are no consequences for failure then you just get more failures. ....

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kthompson
Join Date: Oct 2005
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2008-12-10          158488

Quote:
Originally Posted by earthwrks | view 158478
Don't kill the messenger, okay guys? Here's a website that has been plastered on our local TV stations and in the newspapers---maybe you saw it about what has been happening about the topic. Hints: Alabama Gov. Shelby, a "Boy" and a "cott"--you do the math.We're all brothers here--north and south, east and west--and this is just a discussion amongst friends, so don't take this out of context or personally, 'cept for Kenny :)


Not sure who shot the messanger, thought all were being treated with respect. Sort of the way liberals act. Your sin is bigger than their sin. Shucks might be a county music song, "your sin is bigger than my sin, and as the gov of Il. and ex Gov of NY have a duo. Then that probalby is a MoTown or Blues tune. Wait, Motown is singing the Blues, right?

How about a tax payers union? Makes more sense to me. ....

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Woodie
Join Date: Jun 2004
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2008-12-21          158772

Well, from what I hear parts of the Gov't are fretting on the ripple effects of the Big 3 taking the "splat" . A coworker has a contact at TACOM in Detroit (okay EW techinaly Warren) and was told they are worried about getting parts for DoD from some of the suppliers if the suppliers have to closeup because they also supply the B3 and only run small production for the Govt.
I've worked union and nonunion shops, and I see it as a fault of many parts, mainly union and the companies. I see a need for the union for ensureing fair equalitable treatment of the workers IF the company does not like to be fair. Not being a big history person , but fromwhat I see the unions pushed/demanded many companies too far, back in the late'60-'70's- early80's and created these'pockets' of "excesses" for the workers. Now the pendlum is swinging back from the companies and the work force use to the 'perks' are squaking and the companies can't fund those any longer. I fault the companies for bloating themselves into how many levels of management and VP's with assistant vp to the vp for widget x. Besides the B3 have not learned from history.. the 50's -foreign small cars the 70's again-foreign cars - sure the B3-4 followed and created some wonderful cars Corvette, Thunderbird, Nova, Tempest/GTO, Pacer, etc (okay I had the throw the Pacer in for a giggle). They where great cars for the original idea -Small nimble sporty , economical or basic transport.. BUT NO- what happened -corporate ideas had to botch them over the years into land cruising aircraft carriers. What happen to the cute small T-bird? that thing morphed into a Huge hunk of metal that took nearly two parking spaces and could only cary maybe 3. That seemed to be the trail the B3-4 followed- small cars and kept enlarging them and then they wound up with no small car in their line-ups. The Corporate never truly revamped their business model. Again, now how many models of SUVs did Chrylser build 6-9 different models? same for GM- H1, 2,3 ,Tahoe , Seqouria, Suburban, Bravia..etc. and can't forget Ford.. Edge, Escape,Flex,... Granted profit is a motive, But when the car compaines don't offer the buying public true options to buy fully equiped small cars they flocked to foreign makes that offered the options. And whats the deal with my '96 Dodge Ram MADE in Mexico... Oh well I got up on the soap box and wandered.. sorry I guess i had to vent:-( ""the comments made are not endorsed nor promoted.. by this station...he he""

To all on the board here I wish you all a Merry Christmas and a healthy, safe and with much hope a better New Year. ....

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Chief
Join Date: Jul 2003
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2008-12-21          158774

My first new vehicle was a 1993 Chevrolet K2500 Suburban. What a piece of sh!@#t. On our first trip with it, BOTH sid view mirrors fell off. The A/C would take almost an hour to cool the cab on a hot day and it had the rear AC option. I ordered it with the heavy duty 4L80 trans. & 4.10 gears for towing. The salesman said 10,000 lbs. was no problem........EVERY time I towed with it the trans. over heated & puked oil and I did not tow in OD. At 14,000 miles, the engine spun some rod bearings and was trashed. The dealer refused to replace the engine with a new crate engine and installed a short block. Did a crappy job. Power windows went out twice. The best mileage it EVER got was on a long trip and that was a whopping 16mpg. It was garage kept and spared nothings to be pampered. It continued to have many other problems. I tried to go through BBB to make GM buy that piece of crap back. GM refused and BBB stabs the customer in the back. I traded it in on my Dodge Ram with 48K miles on it. I was lucky to get $8500 for the trade in.

GM owes me $5000 plus 7 years interest on the $5000.

The Dodge Ram has been a damn good truck for an AmeriKan vehicle. I had the sterring box replaced at about 5000 miles under warranty. From there it was pretty much maintenance free. On the last month of the warranty the engine developed an occasional miss. Diesels DON'T miss. The injector pump was replaced under warranty. This is usually a $2500 to $3000 job. Then I come to find out this is well known problem because the fuel transfer lift pumps are junk and fail regularly and kill the injector pump. Fist I spring for the cost of a big line kit/lift pump relocation kit for about $200. Plus I buy a new lift Cummins pump which is a "campaign recall pump" to address the bad lift pump problem. Those pumps are just as bad. Next I spend $500 for an Air Dog 150 to fix the lift pump problem once and for all. Then I notice the steering started to get sloppy again. Come to find out ALL the Dodge Rams do this because of a poor design. Fork out $140 for a DSS steering stabilizer. Now it steers like a champ. In cold weather the engine will not maintain temp. Fork out another $37 for grill cold front louvers. ALl the dodge trucks have the crank case vent puke bottle on the front of the engine that pukes oil and crap all into the radiator and entire engine compartment not to mention under side of the truck.......it keeps the rust down. ;-) It only cost about $400 to get a kit installed to fix that or you can do like I did and eliminate the puke bottle and reroute the hose closer to the ground.

My friend had a 99 Dodge Ram with the Cummins. He notice that he started loosing coolant but nothing showed up in the oil or exhaust. Soon after he found the leak.....the engine block cracked. A well known defect known as the 53 series block. The deal say "sucks to be you". Cummins told him "we will be glad to sell you a new engine for $12,000 or we will cover $5000 of the cost for a new short block IF WE install it". A new short block was $9000 plus $80 an hour shop labor. My friend bought a new Cummins 5.9 block off of eBay for $1500 and rebuilt the engine using the old one HIMSELF. Before that he learned that 94 thru 2000 Dodge Rams with the 5 speed manual trans were crapping out because the 5th gear nut come loose! About $3000 later he installed his own NV5600, new flywheel and Southbend Clutch. Its a great truck now. Folks with 12 valve Dodge Ram cummins trucks have to pay to fix the "killer dowel pin" which is the front engine timing cover alignment pin that comes loose falling into the timing gears snapping off the cam gear and destroying the entire engine!

Fast forward to last week. My wife calls me to tell me here Ford Tarrrassss will not shift out of 1st gear. I am waiting for a OBD I code reader to check for any codes I may be able to fix but if the trans is bad.......spend $2000 or more on a car that is not worth $500. We had the ENTIRE transaxle & transmission replaced at about 28000 miles. It craps out at 167000 miles! I am told we were REAL lucky......most of these transmissions don't make it to 90,000 miles! We got almost 139000 miles out of ours......I guess we should feel proud?????

Bottom line..........AmeriKan cars SUCK! The quality and workmanship SUCK! I am real happy with my Dodge Ram BUT I has to spend thousands to get it to what I want it to be.

Some much for the "Big 3". When they build me a truck or car I can drive 200000 miles that is built good enough to stand up to a FULL COVERAGE EVERYTHING covered warranty (I'll take care of the gas, oil, tires, and brakes) MAYBE I will buy one AFTER I negotiate my best deal AND the dealer repays me my costs of previous crap vehicles they sold me!

The car manufacturers can go straight to HELL! Good riddance! They ALL need to go bankrupt so they can reorganize and make themselves competitive. No more $75 per hour jobs to install stereo knobs. NO JOB BANK! NO multimillion dollar CEO pay packages. 12 year 200,000 FULL bumper to bumper warranty which includes AUTOMATIC buy back at FULL purchase price OR new vehicle replacement for ANY vehicle with a warranty history of more than 3 problems.

I'm fed up and tired of getting screwed by the automakers. I bought the wife a 2001 Dodge Ram Cummins 4 x 4 to replace the Ford Tarrrassss. After I fix the problems I learned on my truck, we will have 2 great vehicles. I WILL NOT pay 50K for a pickup truck!

Since Big Brother is gonna bail them out......I think it only right that the CEO's be paid and hourly wage just like the line workers. NO OUTSOURCEING of ANY kind. NO IMPORTED parts of ANY KIND. Retirement pay should be in line with military retirement standards.

Its nice to dream. Don't hold your breath waiting for ANY of this to happen. NOTHING will change. The big 3 will get their money and the same old sh!@#t will continue.......at least until the house of cards collapses...........then you better pray the gun and ammo makers build better guns than the car makers build cars.... ;-)

Rant over......I'm done........let the mud pies fly now! :-) I sure feel better now. LOL!



....

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earthwrks
Join Date: Dec 2003
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2008-12-22          158779

Chief, I take it you're a satisfied customer? :P

Back in the '90's Nissan got their tit-in-a-wringer with the Feds about the supposed perception of "reliabilty" of their cars. Turns out they were replacing items on cars that they knew were bad---like seat belts--fuel lines-- and not telling anyone when the car came in for even an oil change.

I used to get Technical Service Bulletins from Mitsubishi as part of my job. Every week for about a year--until told them to stop sending them--I would get 1-5 bulletins about things that were going wrong on their cars. I'm talking MAJOR issues--out of balance axles and drive shafts, warped brake rotors, engines stalling, engine fires, suspension part breaking.

I did work for Infiniti too. Same thing. Some cars had 7 layers of pearlescent paint that was nearly impossible to match.

A Mercedes engineer from Germany told me the build quality was so bad that the widths of the cars varied so much--the width of your finger--that they had to use three structural pieces across the car instead of one like the Big 3 do because the cars are more consistent.

When I worked with BMW the Z3 convertible had MAJOR water leak issues at the trunk because the plant "forgot" to install a rubber seal that was 6' long and 3 inches high. What did they do about it? Nothing.

When I worked with Porsche we got 700 cars in from Germany that sat in New Jersey with 3" of standing water in the cabin. Why? They were made in Germany when it was cold, then sent here and sat in the summer sun. A "rat hole" or void in the sheet metal near the trunk and quarter panels were filled by hand with globs of Vaseline to stop water. The sun melted the Vaseline and Voila! Water leaks!

How come nobody rants about other stuff they own like:

Their tractor,
Hot water heater busting,
Furnace crapping out,
TV going out,
AC going out,
Termites,
Fast food
Spouse ;P

I'm jis' sayin' ya'll.
....

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hardwood
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 3583 iowa
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2008-12-22          158782

EW; It's amazing, now and then I actually agree with you. Of all the cars and pickup trucks I've owned from my beloved 49 Hudson right on thru the 07 Trailblazer and 07 Silverado, the only problem car I ever owned was a 90 sometning Venture van. It was built with a plastic intake manifold that warped after a while. I was dumb enough to let a Chevy dealer who shold have never been a dealer of anything (FIX??) it. I can't believe he is still in business. While the Venture was there I walked thru the service building, he has eigthteen service bays, all equiped with hoists and my Venture was the only car in there, he had seventeen bays that were empty.
Now on to other things. Our new high effeciency LP furnace, the heat exchanger burned thru before the third season. The ten year factory warranty replaced it, yep, with another one that burned thru in three more years. Now, if you've ever read the fine print in the factory warranty, I didn't, but anyhow they furnish the parts, YOU pay a couple flunkys they sent out eighty bucks an hour to replace it, over 600 bucks. That didn't happen the second time.
Fast food, yes, like eating out of a garbage can in most of them, enough on that.
All our great old mainstreet stores are gone thanks to WalMart, I could rant on this one for an hour, but I won't.
that's enough for now, Christmas is coming and I don't want to be in a bad mood. Merry Christmas. Frank. ....

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What is your take on the Big-3 hearings

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crunch
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 271 Niagara County, NY
TractorPoint Premium Member -- 5 Tractors = Very Frequent Poster  View my Photos  Pics

2008-12-22          158789

The Big 3 need to have past IBM CEO Lou Gerstner or IBM CEO Sam Palmesano come in and run them. We went through the transition in the 90's. Let me tell you that the company is not the same one I was hired into 30 years ago. If we can't get a customer to accept charges for our services - we workers are gone. It is cruel, but it works.

The worst thing the feds could do is to bring in some stupid financial government czar with no business experience. The big 3 then will end up worse off. ....

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