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Synthetic Hydraulic Fluid

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DRankin
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2003-06-13          57534

There have been recent questions regarding synthetic hydraulic fluids. You already know there is an Amsoil product.

The following was taken directly off the Chevron web site. Note it is rated for all Deere specs and for Kubota Super UDT:


TTF-45
©2000-2003 ChevronTexaco Corp. All rights reserved 7 April 2003
CHEVRON SYNTHETIC ALL-WEATHER THF
CUSTOMER BENEFITS
Chevron Synthetic All-Weather THF delivers value
through:
• Reduced operational costs — Excellent performance
in a wide range of ambient and operating temperatures
provides year round improved low
temperature hydraulic and transmission responsiveness
versus typical John Deere J20C fluids. This eliminates
the need to switch fluids between seasons
thereby saving substantial operating expense.
• Longer oil life — Outstanding ability of the base
stock to withstand oxidation at high operating temperatures
results in increased service life of the oil.
• Longer equipment life — Special additives protect
metal surfaces against scuffing and wear even under
severe operating conditions — leading to increased
equipment life.
• Lower inventory cost — One fluid does the job of a
full range of mobile hydraulic systems. Can replace
multiple products and free up shelf space too!
• Minimized weather and storage concerns —
Protects against rust and corrosion of highly finished
precision parts when operating in humid conditions
and during seasonal shutdown periods.
• Reduced downtime — Good compatibility with
seals, O-rings, and packing materials maintains their
good condition and keeps leakage at a minimum.
• Smoother operation — By eliminating brake "chatter"
and transmission "slip" it assures quiet and efficient
action of brakes and transmission.
• More reliable operation — Formulation keeps
metal parts clean and free of varnish and sludge
deposits that could result in premature breakdown.
FEATURES
Chevron Synthetic All-Weather THF is a
truly unique, high quality, multifunctional
fluid, specially formulated for use in transmissions,
final drives, wet brakes, and hydraulic systems
of tractors and other equipment employing a common
fluid reservoir.
Chevron Synthetic All-Weather THF is specially
designed for unsurpassed operation in all types of
weather — both severe winter cold and extreme summer
heat. It meets the requirements of both John Deere J20C
and J20D specifications. This, combined with excellent
oxidation stability, eliminates the need for seasonal oil
changes.
Its distinctive orange color provides for easy product
identification and leak detection.
FUNCTIONS
Chevron Synthetic All-Weather THF is an unsurpassed
combination lubricant for modern tractors and similar
equipment. It performs many functions, such as lubrication
of the transmission and final drive, and serves as a
hydraulic fluid to operate power steering units, brakes,
implements, and attachments.
Chevron Synthetic All-Weather THF has a viscosity
index much higher than typical multifunctional transmission/
hydraulic fluids. This provides excellent flow at low
temperatures and good oil film protection at high operating
temperatures.
Furthermore, Chevron Synthetic All-Weather THF:
• eliminates brake "chatter" and excessive brake facing
wear
• assures smooth operation of clutch packs and wet
brakes
• provides excellent shifting action
• provides superior rust and corrosion protection for
vital parts
• minimizes leakage because of good compatibility with
seals, O-rings, and packing materials
• prevents sludge and varnish formation
• protects metal surfaces against scuffing and wear
• provides superior gear lubrication compared to typical
cold weather, low viscosity tractor hydraulic fluids
• allows for ready leak detection because of its distinctive
orange color.
Chevron Synthetic All-Weather THF — Continued
TTF-45 ©2000-2003 ChevronTexaco Corp. All rights reserved
7 April 2003
Chevron Synthetic All-Weather THF is compatible with
other combination tractor, transmission, and hydraulic
fluids.
APPLICATIONS
Chevron Synthetic All-Weather THF is recommended for
use:
• as a multifunctional and multiseasonal fluid in all types
of tractors and construction equipment.
• in any application which calls for the following OEM
lubricant specifications:
— John Deere — J20C, J20D
— AGCO — improved power fluid 821XL
— Ford New Holland — ESN-M2C134-D,
FNHA-2-C-201, FNHA-2-C-200
— Massey Ferguson — M1135, M1141, M1127,
M1129A
— White Farm Equipment — Q-1826
— Case — JIC-143, JIC-145, MS 1206, MS 1207,
MS 1209, MS 1210 (TCH)
— Oliver — Type 55
— Minneapolis-Moline Fluids
— Caterpillar TO-2, MTO
— Renk — Bus Automatic Transmission Fluid
— Kubota Super UDT, UDT
— International Harvester B6
— Volvo — WB-101
Chevron Synthetic All-Weather THF is an excellent
hydraulic fluid for all types of hydraulic systems. It
passes the High Pressure Vane Pump Test,
ASTM D 2882, with less than 15 mg steel weight loss.
Do not use in high pressure systems in the vicinity of
flames, sparks and hot surfaces. Use only in well ventilated
areas. Keep container closed.
TYPICAL TEST DATA
Typical test data are average values only. Minor variations which do not affect
product performance are to be expected in normal manufacturing.
CPS Number 255237
MSDS Number 6948
API Gravity 34.5
Viscosity, Kinematic
cSt at 40°C
cSt at 100°C
44.7
9.5
Viscosity, Saybolt
SUS at 100°F
SUS at 210°F
225
58.2
Viscosity, Brookfield
cP at -40°C 17,000
Viscosity Index 204
Flash Point,°C(°F) 242(468)
Pour Point, °C(°F) -45(-49)
Color Orange


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Chief
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2003-06-13          57538

Mark, Chevron makes John Deere oils. Wonder if that is the low viscosity Hy-Guard? ....

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Chief
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2003-06-13          57540

Nope, not the same thing. But the orange color .......... ???? ????????? Hmmmmmmmmm......... think it is Super UDT with Cheveron's labeling? ....

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Peters
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2003-06-13          57546

Chief, they could make it flourescent pink if it makes you think it is different or unique. The synthetic base is colorless like a Exxon isopar. Add a little dye and make it any color you want. ....

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Chief
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2003-06-13          57548

In that case........ I think I'll dye mind green then. <;o()> ....

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Pacesetter
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2003-06-13          57557

Looks interesting, does anyone know who sells it and how much per gallon? At Amsoil pricing 10 gallons can get a bit pricey. This should be a better deal.
Pacesetter ....

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Chief
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2003-06-13          57561

Mark, by the way. Great post and thanks for the information. Just have to figure out where I can buy it? ....

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DRankin
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2003-06-13          57564

It is the same price as Super UDT but I think it is a little cheaper than Amsoil.

I bought 5 gallons late last year for $56.00

The best place to find it is at a commercial oil distributor that handles Chevron products. Just check your yellow pages under lubricants. It might take 3 or 4 days to get it on the next stock order if they don't have it on the shelf.

It has been running in little toot, whoops, I mean the BX22, for six trouble free months.
....

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Misenplace
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2003-06-15          57668

That certainly is cheaper than the Amsoil especially If you have to add shipping. I certainly have more faith in a major oil companys warranty as well. Does anyone know if this can be ordered through stores like Napa or Murrays ? The other thing I am wondering is assumeing your transmission has a traditional automotive type filter and you do not put a lot of hours on your machine do you change the filter/fluid once a year ? ....

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Misenplace
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2003-06-15          57683

I can not find this on the Chevron site. I am looking under farming. Is it located someplace else in their site ? ....

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larry
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2003-06-15          57689

Mark:
I was at Wal Mart & the Shell Rotella for $13 is 5w40
is that all right for diesel?
I've always used 15w40
Thanks ....

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Misenplace
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2003-06-15          57692

You need to be sure you are buying Diesel oil if you are putting it in a diesel. One thing I noticed about Rotella is that the packageing is almost identical on all of their products. It is also easy to confuse the regular Rotella 15-40 with the Rotella T synthetic. ....

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Billy
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2003-06-15          57695

Doc, they are both for diesel engines but come in two different colored jugs. ....

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DRankin
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2003-06-15          57698

Doc, click the link below. It WAS hard to find. There are about a thousand amsoil web sites saying Chevron is an idiot and lying about their products, not really synthetic, blah, blah....

Ditto on Billy, Rotella is what Shell calls their Diesel engine oils. $13/gallon is about the right price for the synthetic version right now. The regular Rotella is in a White jug and the synthetic is dark blue.

Larry, most diesel engine manufactures allow a wide latitude in the viscosity ratings for the oils as long as the ratings match. The 5w means you will get better cold start protection than the 15w, the 40w remains the same and that is your high temp protection. Check your owners manual it will say something like CF, CF-4 or CG. To the best of my knowledge Shell Rotella Synthetic meets or exceeds any current diesel oil spec.

The only place I could find Chevron All Weather was at a commercial/bulk oil dealer. Check the yellow pages. ....


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Misenplace
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2003-06-15          57702

I see. The regular Rotella T is multi grade and the dark jug Rotella T is synthetic 5w-40. I am just so used to seeing the 15w-40 on Diesel that when I see 5-40 the first thing I think is were talking about conventional oil. It sure is less expensive in your area, but even at $19.00 a gallon it seems like a better price than some of the others. ....

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homedad5acre
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2003-06-15          57705

Mark, As allways thanks for the information. ....

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Billy
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2003-06-15          57708

Doc, you need to ask your local Wal Mart why they're selling it for 19 a gallon when the others are selling it for 12 something.

You have to keep your eye out on Wal Mart. They don't always keep their prices current. Just like here, The gallon Rotella syn is $12.88 but their quarts are still $4.96 (up from about 3.96, the old price...that was new, that was old, that was new again). If that makes sense.

After reading it, it doesnt. Anyway, the Rotella syn price seems to jump around quite a bit at Wally World. ....

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Misenplace
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2003-06-15          57709

Some of the stores that are out of the metro area are a little cheaper too. My primary interest is for the Duramax as my tractor only takes 2.1 qts. I am currently drivein 5,000 plus miles a month. ....

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larry
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2003-06-15          57710

Mark
My API say's CC or CD so it's off to WalMart I go to buy about 5 of them
Thanks Larry
P.S I'm currently using Amsoil 15w40
it has seemed good so far (2 yrs)of use
but I also don't like their "tatics" they will not let people sell it on EBay which was were I got it for a good price ....

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Justus
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2005-04-23          110243

I just started trying in earnest to find a dealer that carries the Chevron Synthetic Hydraulic Tractor Fluid. Living in Pennsylvania it seems the nearest dealer to me is about 100+ miles away. There's a dealer in NY that's a bit closer. I'll be calling after the weekend to see if they carry the Syn fluid and, if so, what the cost would be.
I don't understand why, with the popularity of CUT's, that Walmart, Sam's or even some of the bigger Auto Supply stores don't carry the synthetic fluid. I sent e-mail to Wally World suggesting they think about it for what good it will do. On the subject of the synthetic fluid.. My power steering unit calls for the same fluid as my hydraulic system. Can I use the synthetic in the power steering or am I just wasting good syn fluid or is it just a dumb question to begin with? ....

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Justus
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2005-04-29          110512

If there's anyone still interested in Chevron Synthetic Hydraulic Fluid besides me...I contacted Walmart Customer Service at the below website asking if they could carry it at my local store. They called me a few days later and said that they don't have the requests for it therefore they don't carry it. If anyone would like to see Walmart carry syn hydraulic fluid you may want to take the time to fill out the form. I contacted a place in Elmira, NY, left a voicemail and they never called me back. Maybe 10 gallons isn't enough for them to bother with. I now have talked to a Chevron supplier in Reading, Pa which is probably 90+ miles from me. He never heard of the stuff but said he'd get back to me on Monday. Of course I'd have to pay for shipping so I have to see what the price will be. I don't know if it's worth it. I don't understand how I don't have a Chevron dealer within 100 miles of me in any direction. ....


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Justus
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2005-04-29          110514

One last try at WalMart's web link. If it doesn't work I give up. ....


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Justus
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2005-05-02          110636

I contacted the Chevron Distributor in Sinking Spring, Pa and he wants $86 for a 5 gal pail of the syn hyd tractor fluid. Amsoil syn hyd fluid comes to approx $110 for the same amount. I need 9 gallons so figure twice the above prices. If I do decide to go with one of these hydraulic fluids, once I put it in the tractor it's staying in for about 8 years. Are the synthetics really worth the cost?
Besides it being time to change my fluid I'm trying to alleviate the bothersome high pitched noise I contend with while using the 3PH in the winter months until everything warms up. I'm really considering ordering the Chevron if the price given is close to being the price delivered.
I'm praying to the tractor Gods that someone sees this (these) messages before it gets plowed under like the rest. Believe me there's no pun intended. I hope you're working on that UNanswered questions location Dennis.
....

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kwschumm
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2005-05-02          110638

I have a hard time justifying synthetic hydraulic fluid unless required by the manufacturer. Engine oil is different since it has more contaminants to deal with. I think you'd be much better off using conventional fluid and changing it on schedule than leaving synthetic fluid in for EIGHT YEARS. Hope you were joking on that. As far as hydraulic whine in cold weather, use the lowest viscosity fluid that NH recommends if you aren't already. ....

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Justus
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2005-05-02          110640

Thanks for the input KW. I was kidding about the 8 years but at those prices, not by much. Lighter fluid was mentioned to me some time ago and was something I have been considering. With so much emphasis on synthetics anymore I thought I should look into it. ....

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kwschumm
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2005-05-02          110641

I really like synthetics, but at some point financial considerations come into play. It's not so bad putting a gallon or so in an engine, but I've got a chipper that takes 30 gallons of 30 weight in it's hydraulic system. I can't see any way that synthetics would be financially viable for that puppy. There's a sweet spot there somewhere. ....

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Art White
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2005-05-03          110654

I have mixed emotions on the use of synthetic oils. My problem comes from the fact that here in NY and much of the north that extended oil drain intervals often can not be had do to condensation! With the continual shifts of temps from hot to cold the water build up in the oil will cause the need for a change more then use! I often am seeing oil needing to be change before the hour limits because of the moisture. So why spend the extra money for extended drain intervals when you can't get to the hours to nesseitate a change with normal oils. I do have commercial accounts which works out well for one change a season do to the extended intervals and the hours they use there machinery but the bulk of my residential customers don't come close to matching there hours often needing two years to accumulate the hours needed. ....

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Justus
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2005-05-03          110661

Thanks Art. You and KW have convinced me to go with the lighter weight conventional Hydraulic fluid. I'll probably get the F200 if that's a suitable all weather fluid. I appreciate the input. ....

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DRankin
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2005-05-03          110662

I think the perfect place for synthetic HST oils are above the horse latitudes. They are really made for arctic and sub-arctic conditions.

I had a Datsun with a manual tranny when I first moved to Alaska. On cold mornings (-20 and lower) the only way I could get the thing to start was to hold the clutch in. The starter would turn the engine over... sort of... but would not turn the transmission in neutral.

Even after the engine fired it would stall if I let the clutch out in neutral. I had to babysit that cold thing for at least ten minutes before I could let the clutch out.

Anyway.... that is where you really need the stuff.

On the other hand, I think the synthetic engine oil is a good buy in ANY climate. A carefully tended gas engine can go a million miles. Don't know how long you can run a diesel.... but I hope to never wear mine out. ....

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Justus
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2005-05-03          110664

I have enough of the regular 10-30W oil for another oil change and then I'll be looking at the Rotella at Walmart for my oil changes. My tractor will be 3 years old in July and I have 240 hours on it. That was why I jokingly said I'd have the synthetic hydro fluid in there 8 years if I got it. I don't think I put enough hours on the tractor to justify the cost of the synthetic hydro fluid. The cost of the Synthetic oil isn't bad. By the way Mark, I sent the picture of those bears to some others that appreciate wildlife pictures as much as I do. Hope you don't mind. The caption was as good as the photo. Steve. ....

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DRankin
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2005-05-03          110669

Don't mind at all.

I lived in a community that had roads that looked just like that. I had to shoot one about the size of the smallest one in the picture. It was a problem bear that just wouldn't leave the neighborhood. Shot it off someones front porch. ....

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Justus
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2005-05-03          110670

I was an avid hunter for over 30 years. Still like to go and attempt to call in a turkey for a buddy of mine but don't shoot much anymore. I had a mild heart attack (While running) on July 4th of 2001. Ever since then I just don't like to kill anything. I'm not saying one has to do with the other or not. Even before that, I'd go for deer but only buck, not doe, and unless it was a nice buck I wouldn't shoot. I think my interest in killing was declining over the years and the heart attack just made me appreciate life even more. Not just my own, but everything else. I like animals, always have. It's people tend to get on my nerves. Steve ....

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DRankin
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2005-05-03          110677

I guess I should have said I was a cop.....

I understand the decline in hunting interest. My fires have cooled a bit too. ....

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Justus
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2005-05-03          110680

I knew you were retired from Anchorage. Maybe that's the explanation; I'm retired from the PSP. Are you aware of the "Moosecam" in Anchorage? I frequently check it out. It's a good website and I have seen moose on it. I'll try to attach the link for it. My apologies for getting off the main topic. ....


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Justus
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2005-05-08          110854

Art, since you have your own dealership, I suppose I'm directing this more so at you. I thought the Chevron synthetic was expensive at $86 for 5 gallons until I went to purchase the F200 fluid. My local New Holland dealer didn't have it and said he wouldn't get more fluid in for a year because he had just ordered it a week ago and that he has to buy X Number of pounds at a time. I tried another dealer who did have it in stock. They said it was $107.50 for 5 gallons. I told them I could get synthetic for less than that. I ordered the Chevron Synthetic Hydro Fluid yesterday. They said they do deliver in this area and so I didn't have to pay any shipping. I still can't get over the price of the F200 fluid. It's an ALL SEASON fluid but it's not synthetic. I would imagine you have the F200 or something similar. Why is it so expensive? ....

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iy1081
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2005-11-16          119420

To everyone interested in Amsoil ATH, Hydraulic Transmission Oil. It seems to me that you all have been misinformed on price, not dramatically, but possibly enough to make you not buy it. First of all, I am in the largest group of Amsoil dealers in country. We have been selling Amsoil products for nearly 25 years now. Now, to the ATH. You can view the specifications on Amsoil ATH at amsoil.com, search hydraulic fluids, or I can send you information if you do not have web access. The price on a 5 gallon pail, at commercial price, which is attainable by filling out some simple paperwork, is $70.50, plus shipping, which is about $.20 per pound. A 30 gallon drum is $390.00 and a 55 gallon drum is $673.00. Now, these prices may be more than what you're paying now, but most people realize that all Amsoil products will last you anywhere between 3 and 5 times longer, with oil analysis. Oil anaylsis kits can range anywhere from $10.00 to $20.00, so now if you can extend your drains, let say the minimum 3 times longer, not Amsoil is extremely cheaper. The other difference between all other synthetic fluids you may be using is that they are not 100% synthetic like the Amsoil ATH. They are either a synthetic blend, or what they call a full synthetic which is just a highly refined petroleum product. Amsoil is made in a laboratory, so there are no waxes or parrafins in the oil to make it thicken up during cold temperatures, or reduce its heat resistance. ....

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iy1081
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2005-11-16          119422

To everyone interested in Amsoil ATH, Hydraulic Transmission Oil. It seems to me that you all have been misinformed on price, not dramatically, but possibly enough to make you not buy it. First of all, I am in the largest group of Amsoil dealers in country. We have been selling Amsoil products for nearly 25 years now. Now, to the ATH. You can view the specifications on Amsoil ATH at amsoil.com, search hydraulic fluids, or I can send you information if you do not have web access. The price on a 5 gallon pail, at commercial price, which is attainable by filling out some simple paperwork, is $70.50, plus shipping, which is about $.20 per pound. A 30 gallon drum is $390.00 and a 55 gallon drum is $673.00. Now, these prices may be more than what you're paying now, but most people realize that all Amsoil products will last you anywhere between 3 and 5 times longer, with oil analysis. Oil anaylsis kits can range anywhere from $10.00 to $20.00, so now if you can extend your drains, let say the minimum 3 times longer, not Amsoil is extremely cheaper. The other difference between all other synthetic fluids you may be using is that they are not 100% synthetic like the Amsoil ATH. They are either a synthetic blend, or what they call a full synthetic which is just a highly refined petroleum product. Amsoil is made in a laboratory, so there are no waxes or parrafins in the oil to make it thicken up during cold temperatures, or reduce its heat resistance. ....

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kthompson
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2005-11-25          119842

Have I paid careful enough attention to say Shell has a synthetic diesel motor oil that some of you have used and recommend?
As to Wal Mart pricing they vary. It is my understanding the Manager is allowed a good bit of freedom in pricing. They do charge higher where there is less competition. We have four super wal marts in my county and there can be a wide difference.
On some brands calling their synthetic that and Amsoil saying they are fudging the line, Mobile holds the same line as Amsoil. I had used Castro gas synthetic for years and then learned it was not true synthetic, just highly refined natural oil. Seems our government allows the uses of synthetic to mean it is altered from it natural variance of size molecules. Castro would not deny this.
....

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kthompson
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2005-12-01          120179

I was in a parts store and tractor dealership yesterday and they have Chevron in cases sitting there. You may find Chevron in your parts store.

Second, has anyone used any synthetic motor oil that would give feed back on their experience in their diesel tractor?
....

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Justus
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2005-12-01          120188

I can't answer the question on the synthetic motor oil. I used the Rotella synthetic in my last oil change but I only have a few hours on it since then. Actually, how can you tell if your oil, whether synthetic or not, is working well unless you develop a problem?
If you change your oil at the recommended service periods (or sooner), make sure the oil isn't low when you're running the machine and don't otherwise abuse abuse the engine I would think you wouldn't develop a problem. The reason I switched to synthetic is because of the claims that it's better for engines that aren't started often. That it sticks to and coats all parts better than conventional oil and is consequently better at startup.
I do know that after changing the hydraulic fluid in my TC 33D and switching to the F200 I don't seem to have the high pitched noise in the 3PTH that I had before. I'll still have to see when the temps get into the single digits to be sure. ....

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kthompson
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2005-12-01          120195

Thanks Justus,
Did you change to synthetic for your hyd also?
In a computer controled engine where the idle is controled you can not tell some things.
But I would think you might have notice your engine runing a little faster at idle, doubt you tell on fuel usuage but also possible little lower temp. Some of this is very hard to tell on a tractor, esp compare to a road vehicle.
I found better mileage in a Dakota V 6, could not tell any difference in large Dodge V8, my nephew could tell his Ford Power Stroke ran little higher idle, lower temp and I think a 2 mile increase in milegae. Now not sure on mileage increase but it surprised me.
I did have Ford V6 that had the oil pressure valve to stick open causing loss of oil pressure which created the old time valve clatter of low or no oil and it did no damage even though run for 10 to 20 minutes that way. My wife said guage, what do you mean, no light came on. She had only driven this vehicle for four years. So no more guages.
I would appreciate your feed back as you run it longer. ....

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Justus
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2005-12-01          120200

Kthompson, the F200 hydraulic fluid I changed to is conventional hydraulic fluid but lighter in weight than what was supplied with the tractor. So far I'm happy with it but it was expensive. I think next time I change it I'll be looking for a light weight fluid at Walmart.
I'm sure you're correct in the examples you gave for the synthetic engine oil but I really haven't noticed any appreciable difference. I have a 2000 Toyota Camry that I'll be putting synthetic in next oil change. Like you said, maybe I'll see a difference in that. I did put synthetic in a 1999 Jeep Grand Cherokee because it just sits in the garage. It has 23,000+ miles on it. Again, I was going under the theory that because it sits for so long the synthetic oil was better. ....

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iy1081
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2005-12-01          120212

To those of you concerned with Synthetic Motor Oils. You are right that the synthetics do stick to the cylinder walls better, which does make them more beneficial to equipment that is not used as often. However, you should be aware of some synthetics, because the amount of synthetic properties in the oil can vary dramatically. Most synthetics are either a synthetic blend or what is a called a "Full" synthetic. A synthetic blend is just a petroleum oil with very little synthetic additives in it, but because it does have some, they can charge you a lot more money, for not much of a better product than their regular oil. Now to a "Full Synthetic". A "Full" is nothing more than a highly refined petrouleum product. It still has the waxes and parafins in it that make it thicker in the cold temperatures. It is better than a blend, however, not as good as Amsoil, which is 100% synthetic, which means none of the chemicals used to make Amsoil, come from the ground. There are no waxes or parafins in Amsoil motor oils, which allow them to have a very broad temperature range, and most of which can pour out of a bottle at -65 below zero. So those of you in colder parts of the country, would definitely benefit from the use of synthetics. They will save on starters, batteries, oil pumps, hydraulic pumps, because the fluid stays fluid instead of thickening up, which you conventional oils do, which would be similar to pumping molasses through a pin hole. ....

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kthompson
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2005-12-01          120224

Are you saying Mobile One is made from regular oil but refind more? I had understood theirs is a man made product totally. I had also understood they filed complaint over Castro's calling their highly refind oil synthetic but lost their complaint with Federal Government.
I got the impression Amsoil is the only totally man made oil. Or did I over read what you were saying? ....

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Peters
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2005-12-01          120225

I have not talked with all the oil manufactures so I can not state that Amsoil is the only true synthetic. I have talked with Royal Purple and know that theirs is synthesized from ethylene.
I have tested PetroCanada's hydrotreated base oils and I can say their resistance to break down is at last 100 F better than most oils.
I have not heard of treated mineral oils being called synthetics. ....


Link:   Royal Purple

 
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iy1081
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2005-12-01          120233

Yes, Mobil One is a highly refined petroleum product. It used to be 100% synthetic, until Exxon bought them out years ago. Since then, they have basically cheapened up the product and now, if you read the bottle, no where on there will it say "100% synthetic", it now says "full synthetic, and there is a difference. It is a good product, not going to lie, however, Amsoil beats it in every category tested, and Amsoil is usually 10-25% cheaper. Now Royal Purple, if you want some stats on that product, you will see that they come in dead last in the synthetic department for performance and quality, yet they charge an arm and a leg. ....

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Art White
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2005-12-01          120244

Justus, sorry but I haven't been paying much attention to this area. The 200 is the same as the CASE-IH hytran-Plus which is the best that I've known for a petroleum base hydraulic fluid bar none! It will absorb more condensation then anyother oil that I know of. It is about a 10 weight so it isn't good for older tractors with seal leaks. It sure is good for hydraulic pumps because it sucks easily and has other good properties. I'm still playing with synthetic oils and trying to see where they fit in. I've had some bad luck with them but I've seen some good too so it will be interesting to see where it will all go. I still have mixed emotions. ....

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DRankin
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2005-12-01          120250

"no where on there will it say "100% synthetic", it now says "full synthetic, and there is a difference"

What utter nonsense.

Gee. Let's see. One oil manufacturer refuses to submit to standardized independent testing is somehow superior to the one that does?

Based on what? The fact that you can repeat the company hype verbatim? You have no proof. All you and any of the Amsoil people do is shout and wave your hands.

Call me when you can show me the standard tests that every other oil submits to and then show me where the stuff is on the shelf in a retail environment and not for sale off your kitchen table and maybe we can talk.

I have a perfectly good religious belief system, I don't need the gospel of Amsoil.

End of Rant.
....

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Justus
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2005-12-01          120253

No problem Art, better late than never. I value your opinion along with several others here. Speaking of valued opinions, I've been wondering why it was taking so long for Mark to chime in on this subject. Thanks for chiming Mark. ....

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kthompson
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2005-12-02          120258

Quick questions:

Any feed back on Valoine Hyd oils. There labeling was very confusing to me but what I thougt was best Hyd oil I found. Many places here sell...what brand....Coastal...CHEAP.

Art, assume the Case comes from Case dealerships but was is the 200 you mentioned?

Okay, if there a site that shows the testing of the great and not so great motor oils. I will agree Mobile One has goten confusion since they now have I thin. One for about 5,000 and then maybe 7,500 and another for 10,000 or full or not full or wants to be full or such.

A problem I do have with a product that is not sold in stores is dependable soucre when you need it. I am like a lot of others, am changing oil and what, I need some more...NOW.

Lastly, any idea who makes the synthetic oil for air planes? I would suspect they are very honest in their product as the liability issue is very great. ....

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Art White
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2005-12-02          120260

With the Case-IH New Holland merger they picked up some good products to cross merchandise. Not only the tractors and the equipment but the fluids too! The 200 series NH oil is the same oil as the Case-IH Hytran Plus. This oil worked very well with the hydro's that IH built 30 years ago and has been a excellent oil for use in most any make tractor. There engine oil was tested at full throttle full load for diesel engines and 1500 hours on gas! I would have liked to see the size of pile of parts perfecting that! I know that at 750 hours on the gas engines they were burning valves because of the ash content! When removed they got to the 1500 hours. The diesels need high content of ash to help with the partially burnt fuel when cold run. So when I see SH-CD or any thing like that on a can I stay away! I have seen the difference of the Kubota Super UDT here in the cold over normal UDT and even the hytran. ....

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iy1081
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2005-12-02          120262

First of all, I do have tests comparing all the oils from independent labs. Secondly, I'm not knocking Mobil One, I did say it is good, however in tests, Amsoil does beat it in the five categories tested. Now depending where you live, I have over 200 retail on the shelf accounts selling either off the shelf or as an oil change in their stores. You may have heard of an auto parts store called Murrays, they have it. If you've ever been to Michigan, Belle Tire carries it, and sells the absolute crap out of it. I have municipalities using it, and going 20000 miles on police car oil changes. And no that is not a typo. I have a company called Interstate Batteries, that are going up to 100,000 miles on oil changes with the use of bypass oil systems and oil analysis. Now, tell me if you ever heard of Mobil One going that far. Isn't it funny that Amsoil has been around for 34 years, has always guaranteed their oil for 25000 miles or one year, and now all of a sudden Mobil One has their new extended drain intervals? And to answer the question of where to find it, if you can't find it in a retail store, is getting set up on a wholesale account, and it can shipped right to your door step. Personally, I find that quite convenient. They will ship anything from one quart to a 275 gallon tote right to your door. ....

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kthompson
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2005-12-02          120265

I have a friend that drove about 75,000 per year in sales, Not a trucker. Pickup and car and he used Modile One at 25,000 oil changes. He is what go me into synthetic oil.

Without the synthetic oils I have heard of long oil changes in the big diesels with the bypass filter systems or such (out of my line).

I also had a brother in law that ran regular motor oil for about 20,000 per oil change in stop and go driving in four cylinder Ford Ranger Pickup.


As to stores, I live in South Carolina. Never have seen Amsoil on any shelf and never have had anyone tell me they use it. Sheltered life?
....

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DRankin
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2005-12-02          120267

Mobil 1 had extended drain intervals 30 years ago. I was there and read the back of the can.

As to running your oil for 100,000 miles..... what in the wide world of sports would I want to do that for?

The damn seat covers don't last that long, why would I want to abuse the same oil for 10 years?

And if I have a 70,000 or 100,000 mile extended warranty on my drive train, why would I use an oil in the warranty period that does not meet manufacturers specs?

So there I am, following the tow truck into the dealership to sort out an engine problem with 65,000 miles on the clock. The service manager asks for my oil change documentation and I show him ONE RECEIPT for an oil change I did 5 years ago?

Then I patiently try to explain to him that I got the oil from the guy down the street who sold it out of the trunk of his car and HE said it was OK to run it that long as long as I used this super-whiz-bang $400 bypass filter?

And the stuff doesn't comply with SAE or anybody else's testing parameters, but that's OK because everybody knows it is just an old boys club and it means nothing and besides the stuff costs 8 bucks a quart so it must be good?

Oh Yeah. That will fly.

Then there was this guy who invented a carburetor that would get any engine at least 200 miles per gallon, and the car manufacturers and the oil companies all ganged up on him and forced him out of business, and he had a nervous breakdown and died, and the miracle carburetor is sitting in a locked vault somewhere in Detroit, and his wife has been suing them for 20 years but the courts are in on the deal too..... and ...and...and..

And it will all be better in the new building...

....

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Justus
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2005-12-02          120268

Tears are actually rolling down my face from laughing so hard. ....

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Chief
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2005-12-02          120269

Justus, you and me both! LOL!!!!! I was thinking about throwing out the "Homer's Duck Butter" engine oil additive but I think Mark has this nailed down. Almost like listening to my Dad go off on a good rant! LOL!!!!! ....

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DRankin
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2005-12-02          120270

Hey Randy! I am not THAT old! ....

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Murf
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2005-12-02          120271

In THEORY you can run oil forever, however........

One of the country's top experts taught me in university that IN THEORY bumble bee's can't fly and humingbirds will have a heart-attack after about 5 minutes of flight.

Luckily for both us & them not all theorys hold up well in real life.

Best of luck. ....

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iy1081
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2005-12-02          120282

So, what you're telling me is that because you have a receipt for an oil change means that it has actually been changed? Thats make absolutely no sense. It has no proof, however, with an oil analysis, at least there is proof of what is going on inside of an engine, and how strong the oil still is. Now what about the "do it yourselfers"? You're gonna tell me because you have a pile of receipts from the local auto parts store that that is actually going to matter on a warranty claim. All Amsoil products EXCEED manufacturers specifications. If they didn't, Amsoil would not be in business because they wouldn't be able to compete with the larger oil companies such as ExxonMobil. Now for running oil on longer drain intervals, why wouldn't want to do that? Its called saving money. Why change oil, if you don't have to? Just because its been run for that long, doesn't mean its broken down. I have saved one of my municipalities, and they will tell you this, 55% per year in maintenance costs. They used to fail 3-4 transmissions per year in their police cars, they haven't failed one since they've been using Amsoil in the last eleven years. They don't have 1/10th of the waste oil that they used to now to get rid of, and have cut down downtime so much, that they are able to bring in other municipalities vehicles for service. I'm just on here trying to give you guys that have been stuck in rut for the last century some new ideas that might appeal to you. I could really care less what the hell kind of products you use, just thought some of you might be interested. You are right about one thing, Mobil did have extended drains years ago, however they got rid of it back then. That was also when it used to be 100% synthetic. I would like to know why you are so anti Amsoil. You must have had a bad experience with an Amsoil dealer, and that is not uncommon, because there are a lot of them out there, and I would have to say most of them are not very well educated when it comes to oils and lubricants. We have been selling Amsoil for the last 25 or 26 years, and have never had one unsatisfied customer. ....

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Peters
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2005-12-02          120285

I think more than one of us have had Joe Junior Woodchuck all hyped out on Amsoil like a new Amway rep. More than one of us have likely tried Amsoil and found little improvement in milage or any of the other claims. Personally if you send me the oil I will happily try it again, but 27 years ago I was not impressed. Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me. ....

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kthompson
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2005-12-02          120287

For some people their oils is as important to them as their own blood it seems. Which when you look at what is does it is to their machines just about as important. Many have very strong loyalty to a brand because it has been proved over and over. Does that make that brand the best, no. Can the quality of that brand change, yes.

I was very strong on Castro for years. Went to their synthetic after writing Castro and asking on drain periods and was assured by them they more than safe to use the 7500 mile in my owners manuals. I used their synthetic for about 10 years with no problems. Was very disappointed to learn they had changed their synthetic oil. Did some study and went to Modile One. Have now used that for a year or two and to date fully pleased.

Now do I have great confidence that Mobile One is the totally best, NO. I am open to other brands and had not been satisfied with what communication I have had with AMSOIL myself in trying to get info.

Pyramids in sales turn me off and my industry if full of them. What I got from AMSOIL was join join join join. I thought it was AMWAY. Both do start with AM.

If do not want to sell AMSOIL, I don't want to have to order four cases at the time or any such. I also found they (when I last looked) had motor oils that were not full or 100% or whatever is the proper term oil.

There is also another factor in this, the price. If any oil price is say $10 per quart and per your use, your change it due to time intervals not mileage and another oil is $2 per quart and it is not as good but works fine which one makes the most dollar sense?

Again, I am in sales, the you can trust me line is one I hate and so do others. It does not matter where from a person or a company unless you have a strong relationship with them. Then they don't have to tell you as it has already been proven.

A lady that use to work for a small low cost air line told me something one day that might fit here. She said the low cost air lines are safer than the more major ones. Reason? They could not afford to have a crash. ....

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kthompson
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2005-12-02          120288

I did not include this in my previous post because I do not want to imply I think AMSOIL is such a product, but does anyone know what happened to what ever product that was they showed on tv draining the oil and driving the car with no oil for like 30 minutes or so?

How about the product and could be the same where they ran water on the open valve head and I think again with no oil and it ran?

There was also a product that they showed on tv on a bar or such under pressure and how it would only slightly scratch but other lubericating product did let it burn.

To much late night tv. ....

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DRankin
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2005-12-02          120292

I did not have a bad experience with an Amsoil dealer.

I was an Amsoil dealer.

I had a bad experience with both Amsoil management and the products. I believed what they said, being young and gullible, and ruined four transmissions.

As Peters alluded too, even if Amsoil proved to be equal to other brands(which it has not), why would I pay 50 percent more for it than the "full" or "100 percent" synthetic I can buy at any auto parts counter?

I am going to bow out of this discussion at this juncture.

If you want to run the same 30 bucks worth of oil for 10 years thinking you are saving money, that is your business. Just don't expect to get much traction with the wiser and more educated heads on this web site. ....

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kwschumm
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2005-12-02          120293

I've run mobil one for about 20 years in all my gasoline cars and trucks. At 120k miles engine A (4-cylinder) had like new leakdown and compression numbers and inside the valve cover looked like new. Engine B (6-cylinder) had similar results at 160k miles. Frankly, I don't need better oils for these engines and especially not higher priced ones. It gives me comfort to change the oil at regular intervals. No oil improves with age and use. ....

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iy1081
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2005-12-02          120298

Well, I'm sorry you had a bad experience with the Amsoil ATF or Gearlube, whichever you had to use. As for it not meeting the specs of anything else out there, I would be greatly surprised if it didn't exceed everything out there. To be honest, I don't know every spec on everything out there, however, I do have comparison charts on "the top oils" comparing Amsoil to them, and have never found one that is better. Some are better in certain categories, but overall I have never seen a product exceed in all categories like Amsoil products. Now, Amsoil does have some oils that are technically not 100% synthetic because they actually have too many rust and corrosion inhibitors in them, such as the 15w-40 marine/diesel oil, so it can not be classified as 100%. As for Mobil One, Like I said earlier, it is a good product and that is great that you have had success with it, most people have, but for Amsoil costing more, that is not true, usually its 10-25% cheaper. You are also right in the fact that no oil improves with age, but some can last longer do the higher TBN numbers and additives in the oil. I personally have a 2000 Ford Excursion that has over 350000 miles on it, with 200000 miles on the last oil change. Now, the last time I had that oil tested, the oil, which is Amsoil's Series 3000 5w-30 Heavy Duty Diesel Oil, was cleaner and stronger than Shell Rotella T out of the bottle. Compression ratios are still perfect and the valves, even the wires inside the valve cover, are spotless.

I would like to know why you say Amsoil has not proven to be equal to other oils out there. I would like to have some written documentation on it too if you wouldn't mind.

Now to the guy that doesn't want to "SIGN-UP", hey I'm not here to try to sign you up. If you would like to, let me know. There is no obligation to buy anything, and it doesn't cost you a dime to sign up. If you would like information on it, let me know. I'm not a pushy guy, just like to give you the facts and let you make your own decision.

To the Castrol guy, if your going by hours, Amsoil can last you anywhere from 3-5 times longer than your current intervals, compared to conventional oil or your lower synthetics. Will it last you 3-5 times longer than Mobil One, hmmmm....maybe, maybe not. But you do have to do oil analysis and regular intervals until you establish a drain period. A quart of Amsoil 15w-40 runs about $4.50, so compared to your current oil, which I'm not sure exact cost, its probably about double if not less, but once again you have to factor in drain intervals.

I'm done with this discussion now, if anyone is interested let me know. ....

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iy1081
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 9 Detroit
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2005-12-02          120299

To answer the question about the car being driven without oil for about 30 minutes, I believe that was a product called "PROLONG". See if you can find that product anywhere now. I believe they millions of dollars in lawsuits against them and are out of business. There are other companies out there like that, such as Slick 50 which are also being sued and out of business. Do your own research, you'll find out. ....

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kthompson
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2005-12-07          120586

I wrote Mobile asking questions on their Mobile One. Found their answers very "safe". You may like this info or not, it is not meant to upset anyone: kt


Mobil1 motor oil technical specifications that are available to the general public can be found on the respective product data sheets which can be viewed and printed from online at www.mobiloil.com. The "PAO"
stands for poly alpha olefins and the "EP" stands for the Mobil1 product, Extended Performance. You can search online at search engine for information on PAO's.

....

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Justus
Join Date: Jun 2002
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2005-12-07          120596

Although I don't use the products, a check of Slick 50's website shows they're still in business and doing well. They offer a multitude of products. ....

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Peters
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2005-12-07          120616

Exxon state the base stock is polyalpha olephins with additives, same as Royal purple. If reacted these are essentually the same as polyethylene only shorter chains. Purified from mineral bases they are sold as ISOPAR or Isoparaffinic oils. These are sold as rubbing oils and placing in a variety of lotions. The longer chains are vasoline. Straight olephin chains have poor lubicating properties, they are just have better oxidation resistance than less refined mineral based oils. Originally Quaker state or PA grade crude was high in paraffins as the oil bearing stata was older than most and the organics were nearly free of reactive double bonds. Without other additives the polyalpha oils would not be useful. Exxon Mobile states that they improved the additive package of Mobile 1 in 2004.

If you read the MSDS for the Rotella Synthetic it is just highly refined base stock. Petro Canada and Penziol/Quaker state take regular oil and react it with hydrogen to remove all the extended conjugation (reactive double bonds)of the molecules to product a clear oil. These base stocks are then composed of cyclic olephins, some stable aromatics and naphthenic (cyclic olephins, hydrogenated aromatics)which in theory provide better film strength and lubrication ability than base synthetic alpha-olephins. As they are all ready reacted with hydrogen they are as resistant to degradation as the synthetic stock. They are synthesis is one on the molecules.

I was unaware until this thread that the hydrogenated oils were now being called synthetic. No oil is 100% synthetic oil as other additives are required to carry contaminates (surfactants), reduce oxidation and decrease thermal break down. Most alphaolephins also have additives to increase the lubricity of the oils. Essentually the oil just becomes the carrier for the other additives. Improvements in mineral motor oils as evidenced by the SAE letter codes are primarily due to the improvements in these additives. ....

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DRankin
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2005-12-07          120636

Eric..... layman's terms please..... ....

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iy1081
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 9 Detroit
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2005-12-07          120655

To answer the statement about Slick 50, I believe they say it is formulated with teflon, if I'm wrong please let me know. Teflon can only adhere to metal at a minimum of 800 degrees farenheit. All of us know what happens to an engine that reaches that temperature, it only happens once, if you know what I mean. Teflon will only adhere at that temperature, and only if it is surgically clean. Therefore, any additives containing teflon are useless and will not benefit you at all. If you stick with a high quality synthetic from the get go, you will be way ahead than with any additives. Most additives will actually break down the molecular structure of the motor oil therefore reducing the filmstrength and benefits of any oil you are using. STP is a good example. Basically STP is a 380 weight oil, therefore, after adding STP and letting it sit for a day or so. it will be at the bottom of your oil pan, and try pulling up a 380+ weight oil through an oil pump, especially in the winter time. Its a scam along with all the other additives such as Slick 50, Prolong, and STP. If you do some deep research you will see. Anything can be advertised very well, however, wouldn't you want that money put into research and developement? That is where Amsoil comes into play. They don't waste time and money on advertising, they put it into R&D. Therefore, they can provide an exceptional product which nobody can compete with.

Yes Mobil 1 has Poly Alpha Olephins in its base stock, but not enough to call it 100% synthetic. They only have enough in it to call it a "FULL Synthetic". Unfortunately, in this country, there are no standards to what a company can call a "synthetic", however, there are standards to what a company can call a synthetic "100% synthetic." ....

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Peters
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2005-12-09          120727

Iy1081 You are wrong concerning Slick 50. Polytetraflouroethylene (PTFE or Teflon) is not melted in the oil and to the metal surface. This is nto like a flame coating used on pots and pans. Initially Slick 50 as I understood it had micro particles of PTFE. These small particles will act as small ball bearing on the oil surface. Seadoo sells a water resistant grease like this. The problem with Slick 50 was that the particles will not necessarily remain suspended in the oil. They create a little problem if they are clogging the pan or oil journals. They have no effect and they reduce oil flow.
You can make smaller chains of PTFE like polyethylene(alpha olefins). Flourinated surfactants are available as are lubricates, for things like the satellites. These would act as a super lubricants if they would coat the metals, but would be high priced.
As a chemist and engineer there is nothing on the AMSOIL site that indicated they are doing any major research. There are no US patents in Amsoil's name in the last 30 years. All the money spent on racing could be called advertising money. None of the published values for AMSOIL are any better than the other synthetics. No information in term of MSDS or oil composition are given on their website. I see no difference in AMSOIL and the others Prolong, Slick 50 and STP, hype and no substance. ....

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kthompson
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2005-12-09          120730

"layman terms"

Me too. I am right sure it was Castro that had a room full of motors running to prove their synethic was better than conventional oil. Okay, why did they not take those engines and use the other companies synethics and then let them run.

To this layman, I could understand those terms. I do appreciate the none layman ones. When you quit learning you are in trouble.

kt

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Chief
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2005-12-09          120738

What most folks don't realize and have no idea took place in these tests with the engines running with no oil was that the test engineeres secretly spooned in 7 full cups of "Homer's Duck Butter" into each and every engine prior to testing.

Only those who have access to the confidential MSDS and manufacturing data know that "Homer's Duck Butter" contains Polytetraflouroduckylene and specially configured proprietary alphatetraomega polyduckaolefins which almost immediately chemically bond with all machine wear surfaces thus providing the lowest friction mitigation coefficient of any lubricant known; even bovine nutrient residue Polytetraflourobullshitylene and alphatetraomega polybullshitaolefins . Due to extreme restrictions placed upon the manufacturers of "Homer's Duck Butter" by the EPA and nearly every state Natural Resources/Wildlife agency in the US and Canada; "Homer's Duck Butter" can only be manufactured in very limited quantities and is thus VERY expensive. The Canadians have secretly known about "Homer's Duck Butter" for MANY years and have secretly withheld it from distributuion in the United States in order to maintain adequate availability for Canadian consumption.

I would like to take this moment to express my profound disappointment and shaggrin that Murf and Parts-Man have been knowingly, wilfully, AND secretly withholding this knowledge and ground breaking infomation from us Tractor Point bretheren. I just could take it any longer!!!! I just had to let the secret out! ;O) ....

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kthompson
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2005-12-09          120740

Chief,
I guess that proves our brothers to the North may be brothers in law. That really is heart breaking to know they would keep such valuable and beneficial info from us. Just to make it up, why don't we ship them our Federal Government? It really could benefit by some good luberication.

kt ....

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Peters
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2005-12-09          120745

I am sorry if this is too technical, I did rewrite the earlier post. It is a bit difficult or impossible to put in simple terms with out a crayon to doodle with. I have checked 15 sites to try and find more info.
You know what Canadian's say, "You can try to teach a pig to sing but you will just aggravate yourself and annoy the pig". Dig they share the bear grease secret with you?
....

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Chief
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2005-12-09          120748

Eric, my post was not directed at you. Just trying to inject a bit of some seasonal Christmas cheer into this discussion topic as it seems to have gotten a bit too serious. I thought it was time for all to have a good chuckle. No disrespect or mockery intended. I agree that the chemistry of these many lubricants is indeed very difficult to cover. Merry Christmas and best wishes for the New Year! ....

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kthompson
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2005-12-09          120750

I would like to second Chief on his comments.

kt ....

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DRankin
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2005-12-09          120754

Randy.... quit dancing around the issue at hand.

Is Homer's 100 percent Duck Butter or is it fully Duck Butter?

Fess UP! ....

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Chief
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2005-12-09          120761

Mark, I just can't do it!!!!! Murf and Dave have sworn me to keep the secret proprietary information! ....

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tarbaby
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2005-12-09          120764

Chief, are you sure it was a homer product,you know that after a few eggnogs you can't tell the difference anyway, I think it's full not 100% i think? mabey? if you get to down load the product data spects work sheet, you can ask for this and they will send it to you i think it's www.homer.com back to the eggnog . paul ....

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Chief
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2005-12-09          120765

I hope you guys will be patient with me as I am currently entering my fast in solemn observance of "Tookie Watch". ....

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kthompson
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2005-12-09          120772

Or they will blast you (us) with a Canadian cold wave?
If so, please keep it a secret. I am ready for spring.

kt

....

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