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Freeze dried foods for emergencies

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kwschumm
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 5764 NW Oregon
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2009-04-03          161701


We have always used canned foods for our emergency supplies but lately I've been thinking that freeze dried would be a better way to go. The info I've read says it doesn't need to be rotated and is very tasty.

The problem is that on the internet it seems like nearly every site is pushing foods of a particular brand and I haven't found much in the way of information that seems objective.

Is anyone here familiar with the various brands and which might taste better or be a better value?

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AlbertaDan
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 23 Alberta
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2009-04-04          161710


A long time ago when I was in the Canadian Forces we used to eat something we called MRE's (Meals Ready to Eat). They only took a few minutes in boiling water to get them ready. If hthere is no way to heat them they can be eaten cold. But trust me they are much better hot!!! The link below should help.

http://www.mreinfo.com/international/canada/canadian-imp.html ....


Link:   

Click Here


 
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kwschumm
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2009-04-04          161712


AlbertaDan, thanks for the info on MREs. The advantage of freeze dried as I understand it is that the shelf life is much longer (up to 25 years) and MREs cost about twice as much per meal. ....

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cutter
Join Date: Feb 2000
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2009-04-04          161720


I'm thinking the same thing, let me know what you come up with. Chief posted a couple of sites awhile back; survival blogs. That type of reference may help.

Currently we keep about a month's worth but I am looking to stock more, much more. ....

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auerbach
Join Date: Sep 2007
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2009-04-05          161735


I'd say the vulnerability of plastic pouches for both the food and the reconstitution-water (and proven info on longevity) argues in favor of cans. ....

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earthwrks
Join Date: Dec 2003
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2009-04-05          161743


When we went to Katrina-land for the hurricane cleanup we brought along 20-year-old MREs that were bought at a military auction. They were probably state-of-the-art tastewise back then, but I have to admit they weren't bad.

But the Gov't has newer ones that are even tasier---almost gourmet (not really). They were passing out boxes of these. They came with really tasty instant coffee, tea bags, chewing gum and a dessert, and utensils. You could eat them cold, but if you had water you just filled the separate cooking pouch with about a cup and a chemical reaction took place that made them steamy---even melted the plastic pouch! People ate so many of these that they were complaining they put on 30 pounds in a month. Well that, and the strees of losing ecverything and not having anything to do but sitting in a tent in 95 degree weather doesn't help either.

The plastic pouches were like the thickness of an inner tube and had to be cut with sharp knife. ....

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hardwood
Join Date: Dec 2002
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2009-04-05          161744


You guys are making those MRE's sound good, maybe I'll visit a military surplus store. They might have some sample jugs of the recycled urine from the space shuttle, yumm, sounds tasty. Frank. ....

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auerbach
Join Date: Sep 2007
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2009-04-05          161745


Would the pouches be rodent-proof? ....

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hardwood
Join Date: Dec 2002
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2009-04-05          161747


Auer, probably the recycled urine pouches would keep them away. ....

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Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999
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2009-04-06          161764


Ken, have you given any thought to doing a large portion of it yourself?

They sell dehydrators commercially that range from <$100 for 'consumer' models up to nearly the sky's the limit.

I have a friend who makes a LOT of jerky out of venison and other wild game, as well as making huge amounts of dried fruits as snack foods, and dried vegetables for cooking with later on.

I must say, I've had soup he made from 100% dehydrated foods, it tasted absolutely delicious, I wouldn't have known if he hadn't said so.

He dries the products then stores them in preserve (Mason) jars, some containing desiccant pouches, some not depend on the product.

It is extremely cost effective, especially if you do, as he does, and buy quantities of products when they are 'in season' and lower cost.

Best of luck. ....

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kwschumm
Join Date: Feb 2003
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2009-04-06          161769


Murf, I considered doing it myself... for about 30 seconds. Just don't have the desire or time to do that.
....

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earthwrks
Join Date: Dec 2003
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2009-04-06          161770


Auer: Were you asking me if they're rodent-proof? If yes, then no. But if you store them in metal containers that should work. ....

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DRankin
Join Date: Jan 2000
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2009-04-06          161771


One of my MD's is telling me that there are serious dangers in plastic food and water packaging.

He says there is a bunch of research by the FDA that shows the plasticizes from plastic water bottles and plastic lined food cans/packaging leach into the food and cause a pandora's box of troubles including diabetes, weight gain, auto-immune disorders and a bunch of childhood illness.

See the post above where folks got fat after eating food with melted plastic in it.

Bottom line: be real careful about the packaging you decide upon when buying food for long term storage and never, never, NEVER cook, boil or eat hot food or water in/from plastic. ....

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Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999
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2009-04-06          161774


Ken, based on what I've seen, it takes less time to do it yourself than to run around shopping for prepared foods, unless you are talking about tons (literally) of food.

Best of luck. ....

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DRankin
Join Date: Jan 2000
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2009-04-08          161838


Ken....... I was thinking about your question while I was watching my emergency food supply get their morning rations (a dozen quail at the bird feeder and several cottontails feeding on the lawn).

Maybe the best emergency food supply would be a pallet of scratch feed and a couple dozen chickens.

You could do worse than scrambled eggs for breakfast and omelets for dinner or maybe the occasional batch of fried chicken. Add some dried beans and rice and you could live well. ....

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harvey
Join Date: Sep 2000
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2009-04-08          161849


There will be plenty of meat avaiable when the SHTF. All you need is Jeff Dalimers cook book.

You would have to have about 91 cases of MRE's per person per year.

Fresh meat sounds good!

EASY! This is posted as Humor! ....

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DennisCTB
Join Date: Nov 1998
Posts: 2652 NorthWest NJ
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2009-04-08          161852


Quote:
Originally Posted by DRankin | view 161838
....Maybe the best emergency food supply would be a pallet of scratch feed and a couple dozen chickens.You could do worse than scrambled eggs for breakfast and omelets for dinner or maybe the occasional batch of fried chicken. Add some dried beans and rice and you could live well.


Mark I think you are onto something, sounds more like the recommendations that circulated around when everyone was in a panic over the Year 2000. Worrying that every thing would fail Jan 1 2000.

I guess it all depends on how long a seige you are looking to be prepared for. I think I like the idea of rice and beans, bulgar wheat .... rather than MRE's, stuff that last for 20 years has to have some bad chemicals in it! ....

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kwschumm
Join Date: Feb 2003
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2009-04-09          161866


Hey, chicken and eggs sounds like a tasty backup supply. Thanks for the idea. Just have to get enough of them to share with the coyotes. Maybe the chickens will draw coyotes to provide a steady supply of coyote meat. Anyone ever eat a coyote? We could just sit on the deck and wait for the deer to wander by too.

Dennis, I don't think freeze dried canned foods have a bunch of preservatives in it but need to check. That said, I've been eating preservatives my whole life so it's probably better to eat a few preservatives than to die of starvation.


....

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DennisCTB
Join Date: Nov 1998
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2009-04-09          161872


Quote:
Originally Posted by kwschumm | view 161866
....better to eat a few preservatives than to die of starvation.


Amen to that!

I was just thinking that the seige you are preparing for would have to be very long (like over 9 months) or require light weight for mobility to mandate freeze dried MRE type meals. So just standard canned products and dry goods would last you a long time.

How long a period are you targeting for emergnecy supplies? Or is it you just want to buy it once and have it there should you ever need it in the next 20 years, like a medical kit?


Dennis

Dennis
....

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kwschumm
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2009-04-09          161874


I'm looking to buy it once and leave it on the shelf for emergencies rather than having to rotate stock all the time.

We almost never eat canned foods and buying a bunch of it and having to eat it before it goes bad is not appealing. The only canned food we normally buy is tomatoes.

Going mobile is not really an issue, we'll dig in here as needed. It's a pretty defensible area with a steep cliff on one side and a single road going by on the other. We're on a well with a fresh water creek for backup. A six month supply should do it. ....

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Chief
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 4285 Southwest MiddleTennessee
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2009-04-09          161877


Ken,

I hope you are following Survival Blog:

http://www.survivalblog.com/

HUGE amounts of great info. and links there.

The Mormon Church "was" selling food storage "starter Kits" but apparently the response was overwhelming so they no longer sell the kits as far as I can find. You may want to try calling one of their storage centers near you and find out if you can pickup in person a pallet load of these starter kits and/or other canned staples.

http://www.providentliving.org/location/display/1,12568,2026-1-4-39315,00.html

I also suggest that you look at the practicality of raising some free range chickens. I got some Game Chickens from a local friend who used to raise them for fighting until it became illegal. They are not the most ideal egg layers or meat birds BUT they can survive WITHOUT a chicken coop and roost in trees at night. They are also veracious fighters and as close as you will get to a wild animal that is still gentle and managable with humans. The hens are EXCELLENT mothers and the roosters are unbelievable fighters that can become a real pain in the butt if you get too many. We do our best to prevent and stop the roosters from fighting but sometimes we don't catch them in time. Usually 1 rooster to 5 - 10 hens works out well.

Another area you may want to consider is bee keeping. In an SHTF situation, where would you get sugar????? One beehive well kept can provide you with upto 10 gallons of honey per season. We currently have 2 hives and I am putting out another 10 hives in a few weeks when the nucleus bee colonies arrive. Honey is EXCELLENT barter material right up there with "ballistic currency".

I recommend a beginners kit and have found Mann Lake makes the best beginners kit at the best price.

http://www.mannlakeltd.com/infopage.asp?idPage=2

I recommend the painted Deluxe Beginner's Kit with the wood frames. A package of bees with a queen sells for about $60 in my area. A nucleus colony or "nuc" sells for around $70 to $90. For the beginner I STRONGLY recommend the "nuc" as it contain 4 frames of brood, honey, about 20,000 bees, and a queen the worker bees have already bonded to. The package bees contain about 10,000 bees and a queen inside a small box within the bee package box that has not bonded with the worker bees.

If you have not already, stock up on some Iodine water purification. Polar Pure is still available but restriction apply due to the DEA.

Hope you stocked up on ammo, powder, brass, and primers because that horse left the barn a long time ago. You can still buy the venerable M1 Garand via CMP and get comparatively cheap ammo but I think this too with come to an end shortly due to overwhelming responses for orders. Last I looked CMP was still selling the M1 Garand in the Service Grade for $595 and HPX Greek ammo in cans of 192 rounds packed in enblock clips and bandoleers for $60. There IS a LONG waiting period due to outrageously high demand though. I think about 3 months now, perhaps more.

Hope this was not TMI. Good to hear from you again! Same to all here! :-) ....

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Chief
Join Date: Jul 2003
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2009-04-09          161879


I almost forgot to mention some very informative and important groups to have a look at........how many here are "3 percenters"???

http://sipseystreetirregulars.blogspot.com/

This explains better:

http://sipseystreetirregulars.blogspot.com/2009/02/what-is-three-percenter.html



http://oath-keepers.blogspot.com/

Go to an Appleseed shoot and learn about what liberty really is. It will change the way you think.

http://www.appleseedinfo.org/ ....

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harvey
Join Date: Sep 2000
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2009-04-09          161888


I forgot maybe 10-15 gallons of Franks Hot Sauce to flavor the stews. ....

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kwschumm
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2009-04-09          161900


Randy, thanks for all the good links but you're about two weeks too late. Two weeks ago there was an appleseed class only three miles from where I work :(

I really like the three percenters.

....

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Chief
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2009-04-10          161905


Quote:
Originally Posted by kwschumm | view 161900
Randy, thanks for all the good links but you're about two weeks too late. Two weeks ago there was an appleseed class only three miles from where I work :(I really like the three percenters.


Did you go to the Appleseed shoot? We need all the riflemen and women we can get. I finally joined the RWVA last year. It is a very good group for kids and women and guys to learn who have never shot and even those who have to learn rifleman basics. The more important and interesting part is the history lesson that most people are unaware of. ....

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kwschumm
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2009-04-10          161908


No, I missed the shoot because I didn't know about it :(
....

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Chief
Join Date: Jul 2003
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2009-04-10          161911


Quote:
Originally Posted by kwschumm | view 161908
No, I missed the shoot because I didn't know about it :(


Ken, for future reference, go to the Appleseed Project forum. LOTS of great info. about what is going on there.

Here is a link to the Appleseed shoot schedule:

http://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?topic=4032.0

http://www.appleseedinfo.org/as_schedule.htm

....


Link:   Appleseed Project Forum

 
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Chief
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2009-04-10          161917


Ken,

I meant to add that these Appleseed Shoots are designed and arranged to accomodate folks so they can participate with pretty much any rifle they bring. That having been said, the preferred rifle and most shooters bring the Ruger 10/22. Appleseed has the list of item to install on the Ruger 10/22 that turns it into what they call the LTR or Liberty Training Rifle. ....

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kwschumm
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2009-04-10          161923


Randy, I'm gonna do a shoot. They have a few up north a couple of hours. I'll drag my wife and a few friends up with me. This would be a great cause to participate in. ....

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Chief
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2009-04-11          161924


Quote:
Originally Posted by kwschumm | view 161923
Randy, I'm gonna do a shoot. They have a few up north a couple of hours. I'll drag my wife and a few friends up with me. This would be a great cause to participate in.


Ken, I STRONGLY urge you and ALL TP members to attend an Appleseed Shoot. Family member shoot and participate for FREE. The shooting part is just a SMALL portion of the the shoot. The history briefing is the main attraction and something ALL should hear.

I can PROMISE ALL it will be money WELL spent and a VERY enjoyable as well as INFORMATIVE outing for ALL who attend.

I am looking into sponsoring an Appleseed Shoot on my property. I think an Appleseed Shoot will be a awakening for all who attend. Wether you decide to become a "3 Percenter" or not is yet another story.......as are with the important things in life........"one step at a time". ....

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AnnBrush
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2009-04-15          162065


I guess I dont get it. Could someone describe the scenario where a family in the US would need 6 months of emergency food. The way I see it the county sherif has long since evicted you from your house before you run out of food. In my mind the scenario of millions of US folk hunkering down for 6 months "surviving" just can't exist. We are so interconnected, you might not need food for 6 months but you would need electricity and bills would have to get paid and where is your fuel for the bloody tractor coming from. Our society such as it is does not allow for total isolation en-masse. If all of that other economic activity is going on then there would be food available. If it was not, I would not have a roof over my head I dont own my house it belongs to the bank so they would evict etc etc. Whats the doomsday scenario here, please help me understand? ....

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kwschumm
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2009-04-15          162070


The first thing that happens when there are mass civil disturbances or natural disasters is that store shelves quickly empty. If they aren't replenished on schedule due to breakdowns in transportation (fuel shortages, driver strikes, drivers staying home to protect their families) the shelves may stay empty for awhile.

I was in LA during the Rodney King riots. Brain dead rioters in big areas of LA burnt down their local banks and grocery stores so citizens scattered across the city to find food. In El Segundo, where we were, there is one grocery store, a Safeway - the lines were wrapped entirely around the store, cops were metering how many people could go in at a time and people waited a day to get in while the shelves quickly depleted. We got out and drove to San Diego for two weeks to escape the madness. If there is widespread civil disturbance and many major cities are in the same situation what are you gonna do?

Although we are interconnected those connections can break down quickly. Hasn't that happened throughout history? I'm sure many who said "it can't happen here" were proven wrong.

If you disagree, maybe you can look at it this way - buying food ahead of time helps to keep people employed. ....

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AnnBrush
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2009-04-15          162071


So I looked up the 3%'ers deal. OK so we do this and are all expert shots, now what? Who we gonna fight. This is where this whole deal falls flat. All this hankering back to the forefathers and 1776 liberty etc assumes that each and every individual has the capacity and the will to live as a pioneer, in a kind of renegade yesteryear lawless society. What a load of hoey, we all need each other in this society. You need modern medical equipment, hospitals, farmers (which are all corporate by the way), engineers, folk who can get a part for your American John Deere tractor from JAPAN. I am a statistician what the heck would I do with a 1776 life - cook, bear children. I would rather be dead. How many of you know how to repair a broken rifle part, its impossible with the arms we have, you need milling machines and people who know how to operate them. I often see this type of naive desire to go back to some romanticized image of yesteryear. Of all of you I would guess none of you make your living through guns, you all have jobs and run businesses to support your families. How the heck is a renegade 3%'er gonna support all that on flaky dreams about fighting the government over taking away their automatic rifle. In any case they cant use it more than once every year because ammo is so dammed expensive you cant afford to hold down the trigger let alone fight a war with it. Last time I checked the only entity who can fight a modern war is a government, and then only because they have a financial system that permits them to borrow from other nations. Which gets us back to this whole interconnected issue. Like I said I clearly dont get it. Oh well at least I have my computer and you guys, compliments of Dell, Verizon, Cisco, Kennecot Copper, the Chicago BOT and the list goes on. ....

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kwschumm
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2009-04-15          162072


There are people who would rather die than be enslaved.

And then there are those who wouldn't.
....

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Murf
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2009-04-15          162073


Without getting too deep in this discussion myself......

I recently met a fellow I've known for years, he's on a working vacation in Toronto for a few weeks. He flies an air ambulance and spent a bunch of time in New Orleans following Katrina. They flew medicines & medical supplies in, and patients back out.

He had some pretty hair-raising stories of what was going on there in the days following the disaster.

On his first trip in he was amazed at the level of armament, both people & hardware, guarding the airports, after a few more trips he was [u]very[/] glad it was there. He said it got to the point where the ambulances had to have armed guards riding with them because people were trying to hijack them to get on board a flight out of the area.

That was, relatively speaking, not anything more than a 'regional situation' either.

Best of luck. ....

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Chief
Join Date: Jul 2003
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2009-04-15          162074


Ann,

I think you have drawn the ENTIRELY WRONG conclusion.

NOBODY wants to have a peaceful, productive, and community involved and oriented existence more than I do. Wishing for it will NEVER make it happen though. Freedom has NEVER been free and carries tremedous responsibilities and duties.

Ann, the philosophy and "theory" of freedom & liberty is VERY SIMPLE........the freedoms, rights, and liberties outlined in the Constitution, especially the 1st 10 amendments to the Constitution "WE" are ALL born with. They come to us and are endowed upon us by GOD.

The government that "WE" the people created and enabled has the PRIMARY mission and sworn duty of protecting these rights AS WRITTEN in the Bill of Rights and Constitution. The government IS our servant and NOT our master.

The above all sounds great and I would think everyone would support and agree with this......at least I do. Where in lies the rub is that MANY of us who have been endowed with these great liberties and freedoms have chosen to ignore and omit the GREAT RESPONSIBILITY that comes with GREAT FREEDOM.

Less than 40% of the eligible citizens even bother to vote. Most of these voters are politically and situationally TOTALLY IGNORANT. Hence, since the turn of the century starting with President Taft who proposed a national federal income tax and excise tax, on through Woodrow Wilson who presided over a totalitarian "progressive" (read fascist) reign of terror and abuse followed by 16 years of FDR who took this to new levels. We now find ourselves so willing to accept ideologies, ideas, and conduct on the part of the government that in long past years would NEVER have been tolerated. This national/geopolitical cancer has slowly advanced and metastasized to the outrageous and out of control government we now have (see the frog in the cooking pot theory). This is NOT a republican or democrat thing as the republicans and democrats are pretty much versions of the same thing. In recent times our last republican president set new standards of abuse and oppression propogating his vision of liberal fascism.

The thin thread that our constitutional representative republic hangs is unbelievably fragile. All we have to do is rewind the tapes to New Orleans after hurricane Katrina. This combination tragedy/attrocity is STILL on going so long after this event. So soon we forget how civilization collapsed and even the police were looting, people were committing all manor of horrible crimes, and guns, ammunition, and food stores were being confiscated (read robbed at gun point) by police and other government officials.

Another example of how fragile our civilization is would be the Rodney King riots.

I don't think ANYONE here is advocating armed uprising or violent government overthrow or ANYTHING of that nature.

What I am saying is that apparently MANY people of ALL political stripes and ideologies ARE VERY scared. They ARE buying unpresidented amounts of survial/barter stores of various types, gun, and ammuntion. WHY??????? My thoughts are that I think it is PLAINLY apparent that MANY people are convinced that our society and its government are TOTALLY out of control, out of touch, and have grown to become of the thinking that "they" are unaccountable.

Ann, I could fill up pages about what I am talking about but I think it would be best to recommend to you a few books to read that may awaken another point of view in your mind. Have a read of the following books:

Liberal Fascism by Joanna Goldberg

http://www.amazon.com/Liberal-Fascism-American-Mussolini-Politics/dp/0385511841

Common Sense by Thomas Paine

http://www.amazon.com/Common-Rights-Essential-Writings-Classics/dp/0451528891/ref=pd_sim_b_17

Patriots: A Novel of Survival in the Coming Collapse by James W. Rawles

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/156975599X?ie=UTF8&tag=survivalcom-20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=9325&creativeASIN=156975599X

Jim has a very INFORMATIVE blog that I HIGHLY recommend that is geared primarily towards self sufficiency and preparedness.

http://www.survivalblog.com/

Have a good read of the above and I think you just may come to another opinion.

I want to still believe that America was founded upon and STILL seeks rugged indiviualism and self reliance. This certainly does NOT mean that we have no obligation or duty to help one another and our neighbors out. This help MUST come from WITHIN and of our OWN FREE WILL......NOT forcibly imposed by corrupt government terrorist thugs.

....

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Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999
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2009-04-15          162077


Ann, the problem is, not everyone thinks like you do, a large percentage of the population believes they are owed something, that they are entitled to be first in line for whatever they think should be passed out at the expense of the 'government'.

At the time Katrina hit I got an email from my uncle, he is a MD in south central California, it included an editorial from a local media outlet. He was so shocked by it's contents he debated moving!

It read, in part;

"Hurricane Katrina was the inevitable spark igniting the gasoline of cruelty and corruption. From the neighborhoods left most at risk, to the treatment of the refugees to the the media portrayal of the victims, this disaster is shaped by race. While the rich escaped New Orleans, those with nowhere to go and no way to get there were left behind. Adding salt to the wound, the local and national media have spent the last week demonizing those left behind. As someone that loves New Orleans and the people in it, this is the part of this tragedy that hurts me the most, and it hurts me deeply. No sane person should classify someone who takes food from indefinitely closed stores in a desperate, starving city as a "looter," but that's just what the media did over and over again. Sheriffs and politicians talked of having troops protect stores instead of perform rescue operations." (with emphasis added by me)

In other words, they were taking the position that not only was looting acceptable, it was only just & fair!

If you read the news reports of such media outlets as the National Geographic, you will see reports such as "Looting remains widespread in both rural and urban areas throughout the region affected by Hurricane Katrina.". This from a piece dated August 31st, 2005 from their website, fully a week after the hurricane hit.

Reports like that continued for weeks afterward.

When people are hungry or feel they have been cheated or slighted because you have something they don't, for whatever reason, in cases like that, some of them WILL try to take it from you.

Best of luck. ....

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cutter
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2009-04-15          162082


Ann,

A thinking person needs to be prepared to take care of themselves and their loved ones in an emergency. I believe in redundancy, if I have food stored and the store has food to sell, life is good for all. When that thin thread breaks, so goes the rule of law.

The "dependent" population of today has very little moral fortitude, that is inherent in a segment of society raised on public handouts with little regard for hard work or the property of others. Those destroyed lives are handy for those in power, the votes are security for them.

Just as an FYI, "automatic" weapons are not available for ownership by the general public, they have been controlled by the government since the early 1900's. Typically, the media will substitute "automatic" for "semi-automatic" in an attempt to demonize hunting and sporting rifles. The same rifle I use for skeet shooting.


....

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kwschumm
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2009-04-16          162091


I cut this out of an editorial by Paul Rahe on Foxnews.com and it seemed appropriate for the objections that Ann presented. A link to the article is below.

Tocqueville, born in France in 1805, grew up in the shadow cast by the French Revolution and Napoleon Bonaparte. Where others among his contemporaries looked forward to the rule in France of a technocratic elite armed with authority conferred by a nominally democratic regime, Tocqueville feared that the modern democratic tide would eventuate in something much more ominous: the establishment of a “social body”–that is, a government or other kind of governing elite–intent on exercising foresight with regard to everything; on acting as a “second providence,” nourishing men from birth and protecting them from “perils”; and on functioning as a “tutelary power.” Such power might render men “gentle” and “sociable” in such a manner that “crimes” would become “rare.” Crimes would become rare, in this scenario, but virtues, too, would become rare.

Under the rule of this “tutelary power,” Tocqueville foresaw that the human soul would enter into a “long repose.” In the process, individual energy would be “almost extinguished”; and, when action was required, men would “rely on others,” and not themselves.
....


Link:   De Toqueville

 
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AnnBrush
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2009-04-16          162094


Quote:
Originally Posted by Chief | view 162074
..the freedoms, rights, and liberties outlined in the Constitution, especially the 1st 10 amendments to the Constitution "WE" are ALL born with. They come to us and are endowed upon us by GOD.
Interesting discussion. I guess what I am saying is that in a situation where law has broken down and complete anarchy reigns, you might have the opportunity (however remote) to "defend your family and property" whatever that amounts to. Unfortunately in that scenario no constitutional rights exist as law has broken down. So it makes no difference weather you had a spear or a nuclear warhead, nobody gives a hoot. I have lived in such places and no amount of "hunkering down for 6 months" or "buying a bigger gun" makes any difference. No amount of arming yourself will prevent you or someone in your family from being shot at. It may deter someone from invading your home but you cant and don't want to stay at home for ever. Why anyone would physically defend property is beyond me, if someone is being carjacked, heck who cares about the car, so long as you get out alive - and I have insurance - get another car. So eventually those with the brains and the money leave as they don't want to be part of a lawless thugg driven society, no matter how patriotic they feel (dead patriots are still dead) Those remaining do so at their peril. The notion that as a result of this we can revert back to a lifestyle of yesteryear is nonsense as those who choose not to do so easily out compete all those who go back to subsistence ways. In a strange way it's a bit like aspiring to be an armed Amish farmer in the lawless days of the Wild West. Despite what the movies portray it was an extremely short period, society could not sustain itself. As an aside: how many women are harping to go back to those days?



To be clear: Our freedoms, rights and liberties are NOT endowed upon us by God, but by man. Travel to (say) Nigeria and see how many of these "God given" rights evaporate. An official in one of these countries couldn't give a rat's arse what rights you had when in the US and neither would his government.

I often see this specific rhetorical statement and it's patently false. All rights are bestowed by man in societies governed by laws, no law = no rights. No degree of belief in God will bestow rights (here on earth) on man. God makes no guarantees for any of us. ....

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kwschumm
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2009-04-16          162095


Quote:
Originally Posted by AnnBrush | view 162094
To be clear: Our freedoms, rights and liberties are NOT endowed upon us by God, but by man. Travel to (say) Nigeria and see how many of these "God given" rights evaporate. An official in one of these countries couldn't give a rat's arse what rights you had when in the US and neither would his government.I often see this specific rhetorical statement and it's patently false. All rights are bestowed by man in societies governed by laws, no law = no rights. No degree of belief in God will bestow rights (here on earth) on man. God makes no guarantees for any of us.


The fact that Nigerians have no rights doesn't refute the fact that Nigerians were endowed with rights by God, it just means that governments and thugs have taken them away. If a person lived alone in a natural state with nobody to bother them they would enjoy all the rights that God gave them. ....

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Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999
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2009-04-16          162097


Quote:
Originally Posted by AnnBrush | view 162094
Why anyone would physically defend property is beyond me, if someone is being carjacked, heck who cares about the car, so long as you get out alive - and I have insurance - get another car. So eventually those with the brains and the money leave as they don't want to be part of a lawless thugg driven society, no matter how patriotic they feel (dead patriots are still dead) Those remaining do so at their peril.


Ann, you & I are probably in a the smallest of minorities here, having lived in SA in the 'wild days', the best example I can give you is Zimbabwe. Your house, land and vehicles are taken, your bank account disappears (if the bank is open t get to it) because of a 'clerical error', probably made by a family member of one of the thugs who took everything else.

Who exactly is going to pay you what? The insurance company that was nationalized? The bank giving currency that is worth pennies on yesterdays dollars because of hyper-inflation?

Where are you going to go, and how are you going to get there?

I see it the same as life insurance, I don't want o have it, or need it, or God forbid, use it. But I sure as hell have it.

BTW, I strongly disagree with your 'give them the car' idea! On 2 seperate occasions someone in SA decided they wanted my car more than me, in both cases getting out would have meant not getting home.......ever. On one occasion the sight of the gun sufficed, on the second it wasn't enough.

Best of luck. ....

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