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brokenarrow
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 1288 Wisconsin
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2004-05-01          84932


Well this Sunday at 11:59 may be the last day of work for us (at CNH) for awhile. Contract talks are NOT good and some of our barganing committee people have retired as of Friday this week! I am schedualed to be on the line at the main truck gate so it may get interesting. Anyone here know just HOW much Fiat dont like unions? LOL!!! Seriously this is going to be a very hard contract for us IMHO. We just had 25% of our work force retire Friday. That is just over 100 men and women! Ouch! Wish us luck?
On a brighter note, if we do strike, I will get alot more seat time on my new tractor and believe me I will not run out of work for it for a long time!

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nhrockcrusher
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 26 Ft. Thomas, Ky.
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2004-05-02          84941


I wish you luck. Went through a 3 month strike a couple of years ago. The operation was completely shut down. Hopefully your situation doesn't go down that road.
nhrockcrusher ....

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melensdad
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 90 Northwest Indiana, near Lowell and 8 miles from Beecher, Illinois
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2004-05-02          84951


I never could figure out how strikes are good. I would never strike to help a worker who wasn't as good as my at a job. My family gets fed based on my abilities, not on the sum of labor that caters to the slow and feeble. I earn MY wages based on MY ability. My wife is a teacher, she refuses to strike too. ....

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brokenarrow
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2004-05-02          85003


Melonsdad
Yes part of what you said has some validity. Young and naive or never going to get old? which one is it?
I have worked on both sides of the fence, I am a tool and die maker with far more skill than worth on the market now a day. The production workers need protection against companys that will not pay, put safety on the top of the list, give a few benifits, share in the wealth MADE by the actual workers, have a pension, the list goes on and on.
Our higher paying jobs help other markets as well as we buy cars boats build second houses etc. If a fair company pays a fair wage I am all for that, I am not a die hard union guy but I do have values when it comes to honoring the situation you are in (In my case a union and that means you stand up with/for your co-workers) If your wife is in a teachers union and they strike, what you are telling me is that she would collect the benifits of the unions strike but not go out on the line? Or were you saying she would cross the lines? This country needs both unions and non-union places to work depending on the company. Good luck with your future and may god bless you with good HEALTH for the rest of your working life (If your not a union memeber you will need it to keep that house on a ridge in In.)

Getting back to tractors, I am hoping things work out for us and CNH, any length of time off from production may cause some of our red and blue buyers to cross the street.
Even though we are owned by a foriegn company we still are an american based operation. ....

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melensdad
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 90 Northwest Indiana, near Lowell and 8 miles from Beecher, Illinois
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2004-05-02          85014


Mid 40's, not naive at all. Just not willing to walk off my job so that others, who have inferior work ethics will benefit from my labor. The quality of my work justifies my pay, if I don't work, I can't expect pay, if I produce junk, I can't expect pay, if I walk off the job the product can't be made, I cannot expect pay, let alone an increase in pay. ....

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brokenarrow
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2004-05-04          85223


walking off a job is easier said than done. In most cases there are steps that lead up to walking. Like right now I have worked the last 2 days NOT knowing my pay or benifits. We dont have a contract extension and we dont have a contract.
I have no strong feelings either way about my employment
in unions or not bt by the sound of your posts you have no use for them. Whether you are an employer or employee I dont know but slamming union workers for wanting to keep what they have in a time when cost of living is going up every year is pretty petty. In any job there are slackers and producers, more and more its hard to find producers no matter if union is involed or not. True unions protect the slackers, I never liked that either but that is one of the aspects of union work. In general we dont have a new employee every other month doing a job as may be the case in a non union shop (hire the cheapest labor you can, and when they dont show up for work after the first payday, fire them and find anouther fool) We produce a fine product by no means inferior so mis information seems to be what you preach. You have your opinions about unions we can see that, I have opinions about men who think they are better than people they dont know or have never worked with.
I was just passing on info about one of our bigger tractor companys, I was not looking to get B-slapped by someone. ....

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melensdad
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 90 Northwest Indiana, near Lowell and 8 miles from Beecher, Illinois
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2004-05-05          85254


I choose to rely on ME. I save for retirement and don't count on handouts. I don't believe in welfare or socialism. Unions are welfare for crappy workers and push socialism in government asking the government to pay for everything. My dad escaped socialist rule 50 years ago, I choose to follow self-reliance, not supporting slackers. ....

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van
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2004-05-05          85323


Unions are only hurting america these days. Along time ago they did some good for saftey sake. I was going to buy a NH but will probably go with a tractor made by people doing twice as good work making about 1/3 as much as these overpaid union workers. ....

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sgt1985
Join Date: Apr 2004
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2004-05-06          85327


Van,Union or not the price of the product is based on supply and demand. The competion prices also play a role.Whatever they pay their employees,the price of the product will remain the same.The only question being what percentage goes to the company.Although I don't agree with all Union ideals it does protect due process.Due process is essential when a company or a supervisor decides to terminate based on personal matters and not your job performance. ....

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melensdad
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 90 Northwest Indiana, near Lowell and 8 miles from Beecher, Illinois
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2004-05-06          85335


sgt1985 . . . I'm guessing you did NOT attend business classes in High School or College based on your answer. My wife teaches H.S. business and laughed when I showed her your post. It is wrong in so many ways on so many levels that it is hard to comprehend fixing it without starting over. ....

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Billy
Join Date: Oct 1999
Posts: 975 Southeast Oklahoma
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2004-05-06          85342


melensdad

I think what he said is a pretty fair assessment. I never had any business classes but worked in management for 25 years.

Of course it's not true for every company but running a business out of a book won't work very well either. ....

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DRankin
Join Date: Jan 2000
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2004-05-06          85349


Holding up a current High School text book as double distilled truth is problematic from my perspective. I haven't seen a whole lot of UNIVERSAL TRUTH coming out of High School text books in the last thirty years.

In fact, what I have seen is many have been re-written to reflect some sort of utopian agenda rather than real history or real world facts. The books that are still on track have been "dumbed down" to the point where they would have served as grade school texts when I was coming up.

We are at a great social divide in this country over many issues, including business theory. Some people believe that business is a cash cow that can be bled nearly to death to support people who cannot and will not work. You can point to unions, but the truth is the whole stinking system is rigged the same way.

By the way, I was a union executive for several years. When management had their ducks in a row and the t's crossed and i's dotted, I watched on the sidelines while they terminated employees. But when they went after someone for the color of their skin or their religious or social beliefs I fought tooth and nail for justice, and usually won.

I am not criticizing anybodies wife or politics here. Just saying that if we keep building crooked structures maybe it is time to see if the tools are out of plumb. ....

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melensdad
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 90 Northwest Indiana, near Lowell and 8 miles from Beecher, Illinois
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2004-05-06          85352


Billy - Our economy is currently based on the lowest common denominator. Sam's Club, Costco and Wal Mart prove it by delivering name brands at the lowest possible price. Suppy & demand does enter the mix, but the rules have changed for retail prices. Companies seek lower costs so they can sell at lower prices so they can REMAIN in business competitively. Gone are the days of excess profits and telling consumers what they will pay. ....

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melensdad
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 90 Northwest Indiana, near Lowell and 8 miles from Beecher, Illinois
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2004-05-06          85353


D_Rankin, I totally agree (as does my teacher wife) that many textbooks are pushing drivel with a left leaning utopian agenda. Guess where that agenda comes from . . . the Democrats, unions, and the liberals who can't get real jobs and compete in the real world.


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Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999
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2004-05-06          85362


As I'm sure some of you already know, a number of years ago I started a business based on a sideline of our farm's operation. I began doing golf course construction, repairs, maintenance and upgrades.

At that time, and still to today, I told the employees that the business would NOT be unionized, since they were mostly farm workers who were not already union members it didn't matter to them anyway. Most construction workers ARE however unionized.

I explained that just as our farm had (and still has) profit-sharing and employee input into management so would this new venture.

Several times during the time the company has been in operation the workers have been approached by union organizers, their reply was always "Why would we join the union, we get paid better than union scale, we have better benefits and profit-sharing to boot!".

The bottom line, IMHO, is that I make far more money by giving part of it away. Every employeee is in effect a part owner because the company's performance is reflected in their pay. They all do their best every day and are VERY proud of the work they do. When they work away from home I never have problems with my workers getting in trouble and I get a lot of repeat business because all my customers like my people so much.

I received the biggest compliment of my career a couple of years back. I had the G.M. of a VERY big resort, owned by a huge multi-national resort operating firm ask if I would 'consult' with him. He said he wanted me to teach him my style of management and he didn't care what it cost to learn, he figured it would be worth it. I went, I taught, and I now have a standing invitation to that resort. To this day when I go there every employee knows me by name and treats me like a long-lost relative.

I guess the previous comment was right, a union is NOT necessary, or even helpful sometimes, but then we don't live in a perfect world either.

Best of luck. ....

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Billy
Join Date: Oct 1999
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2004-05-06          85363


Wal Mart eh?

Did you know that most manufacturers would give their first born just to get their foot in Wal Mart's door. Then a year or so later that same manufacturer will give your job to someone in China, just so they can still make the big bucks.

Everyone will keep shopping the "discount stores" until they don't have a job.

Talking about Wal Mart reminded me of something that happened here a few years back...

Wal Mart decided that the Coke man should show up exactly at a certain time and unload, stock his area and be gone by a certain time.

Ed Fulmer of Idabel OK owns the Coca Cola distribution rights for this county. Ed says you're not the only place we serve. We'll get to you at a timely manner but it may change from day to day.

Wal Mart says "nope". If you can't do it on our schedule, you won't sell your product here. Ed says fine, see ya.

The 2 Wal Mart stores didn't have a Coke product in their store for over a year. I guess the customers griped enough that Wal Mart finally caved in.

....

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melensdad
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 90 Northwest Indiana, near Lowell and 8 miles from Beecher, Illinois
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2004-05-06          85366


I know of several companies supplying Wal Mart, and I know of them on a personal basis, they are NOT making BIG bucks. Wal Mart squeezes them for maximum discounts to keep prices down. Consumers demand cheaper and cheaper goods, that is why jobs move offshore. Many suppliers simply cannot sell their goods if they are made in the USA. ....

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Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999
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2004-05-06          85374


The theory behind making profit on Big Box stores, like Wally World, is to NOT make any profit on selling to them.

Let me explain it a bit. If the Widget Manuf. co. makes the best widgets around and have for a long time, they are a known entity to consumers. If they produce 1 million widgets a year, but have to give a slice of the pie to a distributor, a trucking firm, and then wholesalers that can be expensive. If however, Wally calls them up and says they want to buy 1 million widgets, and sell them everywhere, not just where the existing distributor has connections, then they can nearly double production and get more market share.

Now, where does the 'no profit' part come in? Well, when production doubles the cost of production falls, increasing profit on every unit sold to everybody EXCEPT Wally who gets a sweet deal. But it's 'artificial sweetener' because Wally sends HIS trucks to pickup at Widget's back door, then ships it to a Wally wharehouse. Nobody else gets a slice of the pie, which means in reality, Widget still got their 'regular' price because of all costs that they DIDN'T have to incur.

I know this because a friend of mine sells to Wally here in Canada, they thought they were clever and said "We'll buy your product, but $XXX is all we are willing to pay, F.O.B. your door." When he did the math he realized it was about 5% more than he was already getting.

Best of luck. ....

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melensdad
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 90 Northwest Indiana, near Lowell and 8 miles from Beecher, Illinois
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2004-05-06          85378


What I can tell you is the company I work for stopped selling to Sam's Club because we were losing too much money selling to them. Sure the items got exposure, but the company basically got screwed and lost money because the cost to service them was too high. ....

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Billy
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2004-05-06          85379


melensdad

Which brings us back to your comment about sgt1985's statement.

"Supply and demand" This is a driving factor of prices from tomatoes to army tanks.

"Competitive Pricing" It's always been around and is here to stay.

"Whatever they pay their employees, the price of the product will remain the same. The only question being what percentage goes to the company" There's more times than not that a company has sucked it up and cut their net profit, just to stay competitive.

What will it be like in say 10 years down the road? The US consumer demands lower prices but also wants higher paying jobs, less hours to make a living and more benefits. Someone has to pay for all of this. I just wonder if the consumer will ever figure it out.

Sure, you're getting a good deal at Wal Mart but you, your kids or your grand kids will pay later on.
....

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melensdad
Join Date: Jul 2003
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2004-05-06          85383


No Billy, that is not SUPPLY & DEMAND. S & D is the relationship of scarcity driving up prices or plentiful product driving it down. Walmart drives down prices, even at Christmas in their toy department when they can't get enough BRATZ dolls. That is why Toys-R-Us is in bad shape financially & FAO Schwartz filed bankruptcy.




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paulss
Join Date: Nov 2003
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2004-05-06          85384


melensdad,

Actually, from an economic perspective, there are a considerable number of factors other than scarcity or plentifulness of a product that affect supply and demand. Populations, demographics, economic conditions and environmental factors to name a few.

It never ceases to amaze me that when confronted with an opposing view, some folks resort to demeaning others as a way to assert their positions. I also think it's a little presumptuous to assume that because someone has served in the armed forces they are incapable or unwilling to further their education. Thank them for giving your father a place to come to when he escaped the socialists.

I will, however, rest easier knowing that you and your family would never rely on such government doles as Social Security, Medicare or the Teacher's Retirement fund. ....

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melensdad
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Posts: 90 Northwest Indiana, near Lowell and 8 miles from Beecher, Illinois
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2004-05-06          85388


Paulss: Correct, there are lots of factors. But the singular point that keeps coming up is the mistaken belief that if a company pays less money to workers that it therefore gets to keep the money. The reality in today's economy is that the price is driven down by competition and the company ends up making the same margin on lower dollar sales.




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paulss
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2004-05-06          85393


Actually, the reality of today's economy is that as competition drives down the prices the public pays for an item, it is impossible to maintain the same margins unless there is a corresponding decrease in the manufacture, marketing and sales costs associated with the item. While WalMart, Home Depot, etc., are great at negotiating with suppliers, to survive they rely on their ability to move the maximum amount of merchandise per square foot of space, They do this at smaller margins and rely on the immense volume they generate. Their fixed costs are constant and the largest variable cost is the price they pay for each item. If their margins were the same as the average small town hardware store, they could be open less hours and rely on less sales to produce the same profit.



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Billy
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2004-05-06          85399


Bratz Dolls (or anything similar) were not and never will be in short supply. It's called marketing.

If the supply of these dolls were so low and demand so high, do you think they would be offered to Wal Mart at a discounted price? The maker created the short supply and took advantage of the doll's popularity, which held the price up. Sure they sold Wal Mart a couple of hundred thousand but when you have an item like that (that cost next to nothing to make), timing is everything.



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brokenarrow
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2004-05-06          85414


Murf, Really good posts! That is what I had said or was getting at. If a company takes care of its workers ther is no need for any union. I personelly dont like unions all that much, but in a time when our country has so many foriegn owned comp. it is helpful at some locations.
You had great stories of your buisness, I like to hear about fair and good employers.
Billy, you too!
Melsdad
I am a skilled tradesman, worked in job shops, R&D in dairy industry, dyno manufacturers, and Tractor makers. Been doing it for over 21 years, worked in union shops 3 times, non union shops twice and was in Management (R&D) once. I have lsot 3 jobs to PLANT closings, a total of 205 years they were in buisness (combined) but I happened to be there each time the plant closed. I left one place for better benifits and money (the non union Job Shop). 2 of the companys were bought by foriegn owned competition and closed our USA plants afterwards. Now CNH is owned by the same scenario. Bitter about all the places I have been? YES! I give it my all no matter where I have been and get shit on for my efforts. I have paid off 3 houses and own 2 of them (one a farmstead) Have 3 kids and puttin them thru school. To here you talk about me and other hard working USA workers the way you have is a bit much. Yes there are slackers, no matter where you go and more in union shops than in others, but you dont know a damm thing about me or anyone else you have been bashing. I dont recall anyone talkin about failing schools and the reasons why?? WHY?? because we dont know you or your wife
so if you have a strong feeling about union workers thats fine you stated it now shut up! Many of us here have busted our behinds to be succesful and some have not but still work just as hard. Some have graduated from college and dont have a clue at how the real world works or how to work for that matter. Some do! Now please ask you bride (the teacher) If I have made any more mistakes (other than spelling)and post something other than degrading comments about people you dont know!
Tom ....

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brokenarrow
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2004-05-06          85416


Van
With that much common sense, I hope you do buy anouther brand ( Hmmm) (John Deere- Union). (Cat- Union?)
(CNH - Union) (kubota? I dont know but maybe they have union parts some where or union steel or union tires?)
I think you better go buy a grey iron machine just to be safe, so you dont get a tractor made by inferior workers making way too much money who is supporting all the non employed people in the country!
Good luck with your new tractor purchase "VAN" You will need it! ....

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melensdad
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2004-05-07          85441


Paulss: margin is measured in 2 ways. % or absolute $. % margin typically stays the same as prices drop, absolute $ margins typically drop. This forces companies to cut costs simply so they can stay in business. ....

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melensdad
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Posts: 90 Northwest Indiana, near Lowell and 8 miles from Beecher, Illinois
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2004-05-07          85443


Billy: I doubt if Bratz or similar items were offered to Wal Mart at lower prices than were offered to Toys-R-Us or FAO Schwartz, it is just that Wal Mart chooses to sell at lower margins than its competitor. It makes its money on volume and extreme effeciencies. The supply of goods can be short, but if WM has the item, it will be the low price seller.




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melensdad
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Posts: 90 Northwest Indiana, near Lowell and 8 miles from Beecher, Illinois
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2004-05-07          85445


brokenarrow: ok, now you are telling people to buy other brands??? If I worked for a company and I told people to buy other brands, the company should terminate me. Further, I don't think I would even want to work for a company where I did not recommend its products.




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melensdad
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2004-05-07          85446


Personally I think companies should take care of their employees and employees should take care of their companies. Publicly traded companies have a hard time with that because stockholders demand returns for their investments and employees see that as greed. CNH is barely profitable, its parent company lost billions. ....

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Murf
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2004-05-07          85458


Tom (brokenarrow), thank you for your kind words. My family has prided itself on it's treatment of those working for us, and helping to make us succesful since the first Murphy arrived here in the late 1700's with a compliment of British troops who helped clear land for what became our farm and the town we founded nearby, they were each given 100 ac. of land on top of their wages & pension for their efforts. I personally have no intention of changing things 300+ years later.

As has been so correctly stated already, there should be NO need for unions in this day & age.

Unfortunately we could say the same thing about all sorts of other things as well, DUI laws, gun control, EPA reg.'s, farm aid, welfare, or domestic violence laws.

But, alas, there IS a need for these things sometimes.

Best of luck. ....

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jeff r
Join Date: Jul 2003
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2004-05-07          85465


A post of this magnitude wouldn't be complete without my input.

Let me sum it up:

Unions are only around to give 6 digit incomes to Union bosses who couldn't/wouldn't or didn't do their jobs before they brainwashed the members to elect them into Union executive jobs. It is easy to tell somebody elese to go on strike when it will NOT effect YOUR paycheck?


Schoolteachers are clueless about the real world economies and business practices. That is why they teach for 182 days and have summers off to screw around. Show me a higher paying job that pays what a school teacher makes for a 182 days of pay. Don't bother looking there aren't any.

When you take a look at the big 3 automakers and realize that you are paying the high ass car and truck prices to support the brainless idiots pushing brooms and being paid 26.00 per hour, it is no wonder why companies close up United states manufacturing plants and go over seas.


In the final analysis, I do only what is good for me and screw everyone else. If folks want to be left wing liberal martyers then contact BABA Strieseand , Teddy Kennedy, or Micheal Moore and see how fast they support your strike when it means they will loose money................FAT CHANCE.




....

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kubotaguy
Join Date: Nov 2003
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2004-05-07          85477


Good posts Murf.
Jeff R, I believe you bluntly put how I see things as well.
Melensdad, As far as comparing Wal-Mart to Toys R Us or other specialty companies, the comparison is not there. Wal-Mart is a totally different beast. My brother used to be an Assistant Manager at one of the biggest Wal-Marts in the country. Before he was Assistant manager, he was the dept. manager for automotive. He was in the top 10 in sales in the country. They would take and sell certain products at or even below cost sometimes such as oil. People would come in and buy the oil like crazy. While they were there they may pick up an oil pan, oil filters, other automotive cleaners, etc. which the prices were slightly higher than normal. They use low prices on certain items to get you in the store and then most people purchase other things as well. Everyone has done it, gone in to buy one item at Wal-Mart, Lowes, Home Depot, Sam's or whereever and walk out with a cart load.
Unions had a purpose at one time, but now there are laws, and OSHA, as well as other organizations for safety issues. As far as getting fair pay, Unions are out for themselves first and the employee second. If you work hard and provide good quality work, most companies will compensate you accordingly. Many places are going oversees not only to get the cheap labor but to get away from all of the crap with the unions here in the US. ....

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kwschumm
Join Date: Feb 2003
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2004-05-07          85480


You're all right! I have no respect for unions, but management and government have earned my disrespect as well. Although not (all) the people in those organizations are bad, the primary goal of ANY bureaucracy is to gain power through growth and the aquisition of money and influence. Me? I work for myself and buy from the little guy whenever possible.

Murf has the right idea about how to run a business. I was in management for a few years and learned quite well how NOT to do things. His model shows respect for both employee and customer, which earns loyalty from both. That is the formula for success. ....

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jeff r
Join Date: Jul 2003
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2004-05-07          85485


Guys,

Let me give you a little more insight on how Wal-Mart REALLY works since I have a father -in-law that was hired by Sam Walton himself and retired 10 years ago as a regional VP and also a millionaire.

Did you ever notice why the vast majority of Wal-Mart's employess are women (85%)? That is done on purpose because Wal-Mart believes women are secondary wage earners and Wal-mart can hire them for less money and benefits because these women are lucky to even have a job. During a WalMart job interview, a key benefit hammered to the prospective employee is the 10% off discount on employee purchases. A big moral sticking point between my father-in-law and I is Walmart's former "fratenizing" rule that bans ANY type of dating between employees in management. My father-in-law actually had to fire MANY people because they were caught going out on dates with both people being employed by Wal-Mart. I kindly rubbed it in my father-in-laws face when I cut out the article in the paper that Wal-Mart LOST a federal Court of Appeals lawsuit on firing people who date each other off Wal-Marts clock. Before the lawsuit, MANY people got unemployed real quick if they got ratted on by bitter fellow emplyees when they dated. CAN YOU IMAGINE LOSING YOUR JOB BECAUSE YOU DATED AN EMPLOYEE???? The recent fervor over Wal-Mart using illegal aliens for store cleaning is a JOKE because it has been happening FOREVER.

I once asked my father-in-law if Wal-Mart told you to do something illegal or immoral what would he do? He though about it and replied, if Wal-Mart told me to do it and if I wanted to keep my job and lifestyle, I would do it and leave the legal ramification to the Wal-Mart' Legal Department. Isn't that what Germany's SS officers said about the Nazi's. To some people Wal-Mart is NOt a Retailer.......IT IS A RELIGION. For others it is happy face and a low price. ....

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Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999
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2004-05-07          85486


Jeff, despite your comments to the contrary I believe you ARE a union employee. You are part of the biggest workers unions in the world, it is called the United States of America.

Your union is all powerful, to the point where it has set it's member's benefits in law.

Your union mandates that, amongst a long line of things, you will get a guaranteed minimum wage, overtime after a certain number of hours per week, that you can retire after a certain age, that you will have a pension when you do retire and that you cannot be forced to do hazardous work without adequate training and safety precautions.

Best of luck. ....

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Chief
Join Date: Jul 2003
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2004-05-07          85487


Why did I know after seeing the first post on this thread, it would end up where it is now???????? ;o)

Murf, perhaps I misread or misinterpreted your last post. I would appreciate it if you would clarify exactly what you mean. I am inclined to take great offense to what I took it to infer and that just seems most out of character for you to post something such as that. If I am taking something in an unintended manor; please accept my apologies in advance.

Have a nice day! ;o) ....

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Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999
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2004-05-07          85489


Randy, I sincerely hope you take no offence from it, it was NOT meant to be offensive to anyone.

My point was merely that NOBODY is without a minimum level of protection under law when it comes to there jobs in this day & age. There is thus even less reason for strong unions. Many years ago when big companies could merely hire a strong security force, they were often called private police, in fact many times they WERE the police themselves, local & state, to whip the workers into line, often literally, without any fear of reprisal under law for their actions.

Most people today don't know that Columbine, Colorado has two massacres in it's history. In 1927 six miners were killed by the Colorado State police while picketing, their monument in the local cemetary reads "killed at the Columbine Mine fighting for a living wage and a measure of human dignity.". The picture link below shows the marker.

My point is simply this, that was a LONG time ago and we now have protection from that sort of behaviour by employers, the role of unions today is relegated to how big a raise or how nice a dental plan they can get someone. They do not exist to protect workers from unfair employment standards today as they once did.

Hope that clears things up.

I recall reading a quote a long time ago, written by Rudyard Kipling and I found it to be very wise words. "As pleasant as correspondance from a friend is, it is always better in person, for then you may hear the inflection of the voice, and know the sentiment in which it offered.".

Best of luck.


....


Link:   Columbine Mine Massacre

 
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Chief
Join Date: Jul 2003
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2004-05-07          85497


Murf, Rudyard Kipling was INDEED correct. Please excuse my misunderstanding of your point and intended message. No offense taken and upon further thought I am much inclined to agree with your observation. As time passes, our population and culture is in fact becoming more and more addicted to the socialist pacification that our so called "government" dreams up and passes out. Personal responsiblity and account for your own actions are an "endangered species" here in the States. At the end of this road to hell our country is bent upon following is a guy called the "Piper" who we will all be paying with great anguish and cost. Come to think of it................I think we are paying him already. ....

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sgt1985
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 21 north carolina
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2004-05-07          85513


Melensdad,as a matter of fact, I did very well in high school business classes and attended college for 3 years.Getting back to the point.Most honest,hard working Americans will never need Union representation in their entire career, the Union is just in case. By the way,have you ever researched Union represented Teachers wages to non-Union Teachers.Enough said! ....

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brokenarrow
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 1288 Wisconsin
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2004-05-07          85517


Hey guys, sorry I started this whole thing, (I kinda thought it may take this route also) Really I was just getting it off my shoulders when letting you all know a group of workers are more than likely going to take a real hard hit.
Like I said before, I have very little use for unions also but it is where I work, its a good job and fits right in with my interests. A bit of info. We have been told by the upper management that the union employees represent 13-14% of the cost of the tractor. That includes ALL benifits and costs associated to us. By taking the cuts they want to give us, they may save 3-4% on the cost of the final product.
Just a sampleing of new wage proposals. (Do Not quote me, it is colse but not to the pennies) The new machinests (workers machining the parts for your tractors) will not make more than $14 an hour after 6 years. That is top pay for all new hires in the whole building all other jobs will be less. Now lets think about this, my son just got a job at a local grocery store (part time he is 16).
On Sat. and Sunday he makes $10 bucks an hour (he just started!) If you were making a career out of this store (say after you are 18) They (the company) pay full health care for you with 5 dollar co pay on prescription etc. and other top of the line health benifits. The wage goes up to around $13.65. This is a non union grocery store!!!
Sounds like a MURPHY must own part of this chain!!!
I just told you this to compare careers. Grocery store clerk $13.65. Machine operator with many responsibilitys
$14. The local McDonalds pays $9.75 an hour to start (if your 18) I believe it is $9 if your not.
I am in a different situation since I am a tradesman but we still are NO WHERE NEAR auto workers wage! We also have a chrysler plant 10 miles from us. Yes the old timers (high senority guys)where I work are knocking out about 2 times more than they may be worth on the production line, but those days are gone for most. Have you seen a decrease in the cost of a tractor recenty???The profits are not going in the union workers pockets. Our union is so weak it is pathetic, I am ashamed to say that I pay $48 a month for I do not need protection.
John Deere just got a very nice contract, we would be very happy to have that contract, sound like deere is taking care of their workers un like this NEW GEN. owner FIAT.
Unfortunatly this is the times we live in, I tell my kids all the time to do good in school and get your college degree so you can be ""overpaid"" and have it be politically correct and accepted. Sad huh?
On brighter note, I only have 5 years and 1 month left to live in this town. After that I get to quit my job and move to my acerage/farm. I plan on doing anything but work with steel!!! I dont know what it is like to see the seasons while at work during the daylight. We dont have many windows at all! LOL. waste management for the county looks good! Operate the heavy equipment and enjoy the best and worst of mother nature.

This country needs all kind of workers to make it turn, from the lower educated to the genious, the back breaking workers in concrete to the pencil pushers and button pushers, from the owners who take enormous risks with their own capital (to give others a job) to the guy who takes on odd jobs to make a living. My point is love thy neighbor for without all of us it wouldnt work! ....

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brokenarrow
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 1288 Wisconsin
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2004-05-07          85518


Melensdad
Broken said,"I hope you do buy anouther brand "
There are some customers that a company would be money ahead if they bought anouther brand and he sounded like one of them (just a guess though) If further explanation
about that posts meaning is needed, please ask your wife to interpret its intentions . ....

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sgt1985
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 21 north carolina
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2004-05-07          85520


Brokenarrow,I respect your opinion.It appears Unions protect scumbags but,in reality no one pays attention to the average joe that comes to work everyday and gets the job done.That average joe,like you and me, have ethics.Union or no Union. ....

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sgt1985
Join Date: Apr 2004
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2004-05-07          85522


Melensdad,you stated quote,"Unions are welfare for crappy workers"You also stated your wife refuses to strike.The assumption is, she's Union.So, show her your posts and a....ain't so funny anymore, is it? By the way,I let my wife read your posts who happens to be a school Nurse and she couldn't stop laughing! ....

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brokenarrow
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 1288 Wisconsin
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2004-05-08          85569


Thanks sgt. I felt like I was on the bottom of a monkey pile for awhile there LOL. I can tell you stories on end of workers taking advantage of union security but it usually are the same few bad apples repeating bad work ethics. It only takes a few to spoil the view or image of a union. That said, if I owned a company I sure would not want a union based employment force, not because of slackers making up the majority but because of the few who will take advantage of it. To attract (and keep) quality workers you need to compensate them well and have them feel good about working for you, sounds like Murph has that one down pat! IMHO I could care less if the company I work for was Union or not, infact if the union was not there I would more than likely be paid more!!! You see we have a majority of production workers and a minority or skilled tradesmen so you can figure out how much PULL the trades have when it comes time for a increase. Still it is one of the better places to work around here for me, not because of the money but because of the benifits the union helps get for us. Last word on this for me.
I make $24 a hour plus pretty good benifits. I only get 2 weeks vacation intill my 10th year and then will get one more. I also get one week casual time off. I dont think that is setting the world on fire. $24 an hour for a skilled tradesman wage is fair and my vacation I have acrued (after 7 years there) is not something to brag about! or too much by any standards.
I do know that with the job I have, I help employ many many people in other jobs with the money I spend.
Sorry if I caused any troubles with this ( I guess the way it turned out I should of posted this in the general catagory) and no hard feelings I hope by any of you here. I hope you all dont treat me like a leper now that I told you I am a union employee? I am quiting my job (if it is still there after this weekend) in 5.5 years and moving, if I had it MADE like some have implied here I wouldnt be doing that LOL!
....

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AV8R
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 882 North Central Wisconsin
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2004-05-08          85573


Broken: I currently work for a subcontractor to CNH (soon to add JD too) as a machinist and the TOP pay in our non-union shop is $16/hr. Not me btw, I have 10 years exp and a journeyman cert! In the past 5 years I have gone from near $20/hr aerospace machinist to less than $15/hr tractor machinist. This is why I am leaving my Co in 3 weeks and going back to college for a year to finish my engineering degree! Don't want to spend the rest of my "Career" in a windowless box poking holes in tractor parts either, LOL. ....

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DRankin
Join Date: Jan 2000
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2004-05-08          85575


Gee, let me think..... $15.00 an hour and I maintain my "dignity" as a free and independent tradesman, or..... 24 bucks and I join a union.

Hummmm..... I can't make up my mind!

Not! ....

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shortmagnum
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2004-05-09          85593


AV8R said "I am leaving my Co in 3 weeks and going back to college for a year to finish my engineering degree!"

I decided late in life that going back to school was right for me. The decision is tough to make but once you make that decision it's relatively easy to live an inexpensive lifestyle for the time you're in school. Obviously if you want to keep up a huge mortgage and fancy cars then you may have no other choice than to accept what life is giving you and simply go on.

At the time, I was a single parent with two boys and a girl to support so there were times that I couldn't give them the things their friends had. But now I think they are better off for it and they remember the simple fun times we had with joy.

The point here is not that everyone needs to get a new degree. My point is that unless you feel that you have some control of your life it may be better to move on, even if you have to start from scratch.
Dave ....

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brokenarrow
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2004-05-09          85621


Exactly why I am moving in a few years. I have often thought of going back to school but the thought of being a engineer makes me sick. Very few of them I have worked with can hold a drop of water of my sweat on their forhead. There are the exceptions though a few have impressed the heck out of me but not many!. The best ones (most of the time) have experianced life and jobs related to their field of study and then going back and getting a further degree. The engineers by me are usually amazed at what a tool and die maker can come up with and then has the oportunity to actually make what they thought up. On the other hand I am not getting any younger and soon I will have a hard time keeping up with the youinger studs. Maybe it is time to get some more schooling and retreat to a position of liesure instead of actually making something work. LMAO. ....

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brokenarrow
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2004-05-09          85624


My last post was unfair, and after thinking about it I should clarify it. Many machine operators call themselves Machinests, Mnay machinests think of themselves as tool and die makers, Many die makers think of themselves as engineers, and many engineers think of them selves as GOD. Only thing is, is that many engineers cant do what the latter can.
Maybe a few here are too young to remember or know what it used to be like 20 years ago or more. We used to have to dress a grinding wheel with angles and radius's to grind a configuration on a punch and then ID grind the die to fit with the proper clearance for the material to be punched. Very demanding and skilled work. Many many more jobs like that one that I wont get into. Most of our work (as die makers) can now be done by true machinests with the onset of technology IE: wire edm, water jet, cnc. etc. So my trade is definatly getting watered down. I still have my pride but that dont buy you a tractor. As far as I am concerened the only people out there that are even close to "god like" are our small buisness owners who employee these people. As for wages, AV8r, If you are in north central Wi. what you make is like $24 an hour down here, I have a house up there and will soon be lucky to get a job making that money in my trade.
Drankin, In my field of work, unless you are an owner, you will never be a "free tradesman" you will always work for someone else. Vacation is a premium for guys like me and bouncing from job to job dont cut it. Dont worry (all of you) Unions are self destructing as we talk, the UAW has sold out to the company's and creating a 2 tier wage system that will undermine the whole system. The new hires soon will be the majority and say forget this union, what did they due for me. Then these foreign comp. that own us can pay us shit wages so the CEO'S can get the multi million dollar bonuses. Remember that there always needs to be actual workers out there or ALL our jobs will go to CHINA. If we all became educated there would be no one left to do the work. Quality comes from the machines now a day and going back to school would be an option althought I am bailing out of the cities soon and willing to change fields of work. ....

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AV8R
Join Date: Oct 2003
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2004-05-10          85705


All: I'm only 33 with no kids and can finish my degree in a year, which makes passing the opprotunity tough.

All of our skilled trades are dieing (as a viable CAREER not just another job) that's just the fact and I think you've all been around long enough to know it. I need to be able to offer my future family(?) with more security than what I see in my future, so here I go.

Just gonna have to do some "cash" jobs over the next few months (Yeah, more tractor time!) to give me some extra money to help the Mrs. with the couple regular bills we have, and move onward and upward. ....

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brokenarrow
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2004-05-10          85729


Good luck AV8R. I am sorry to agree with you about my trade, but a watered down version of it is the future. (Funny in high school all the counselors talked about is how much of a demand the need for this would be in the future) LOL> Although we will never get away from the need to fix machines and fix broken dies and jigs, but the fact remains that technology has watered down the skill and knowlege needed to perform some of these duties. I have had to evolve with tech. and learn the ever changing ways of competing in the trade. I have realized that I cant stand being iside a building like a rat in a cage anymore. (Being in a cubical would be even worse) For the next few years I am staying in the buildings to complete my tour of duty as a father of teenagers but after that I will be changing (also) my line of work. I will be 44 when when my last of three rug rats turns 20! Like I said good luck I wish the best for you. You should do well for it sounds like you have alot of knowlege of other operations that will be a huge benifit in engineering. ....

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kubotaguy
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2004-05-11          85797


Broken, the comment amount the high school counselors is so true. When I was in school, they were talking about computers being the field and computer repair. Now days when a computer breaks it is usually old enough they don't repair it. Just go get another one that is more current. ....

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brokenarrow
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2004-05-11          85823


LOL I hear ya. With the onset of the internet and all the options available for searching for careers and availability of jobs, I suppose the new Graduates have a heads up compared to what we had. All I had to go on was what what told me by adults, I do wish I would of put a degree in my pocket in anouther field but I have what I have. Its scary getting older and not knowing what the future holds for your skill abilities. I have never been out of work yet for any length of time but then again I have never been 50 or 55 and out trying to get a job in my field. Suppose its time to start thinking (more serious) about buying a few more machines for the work shop. Never know when a guy might need to do some extra work to make ends meet.
Hey thanks guys for not holding anything I have said against me. I defend my career and my trade along with my company, I am proud of what I do because I know that I have not fell into the old'fashioned union traditions and
I put out a good days work everyday, enough so, that I can feel comfortable when handed my check.
Good luck to all this year. ....

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ncrunch32
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2004-05-18          86324


I aways comment after everyone else is done and the thread is dead. Where I work there is no union. There was never a need for a union when this giant company was owned by a family. I think it is great when someone like Murf is a fair and generous owner of a company and keeps the employee welfare in mind. That is company ownership at its best.

I still don't think Unions are the answer. However, there has to more "long run" accountability of corporations to employees and to society. Our benefits and retirements are cut routinely to shore up the quarterly bottom line - even though we are making great profits. The executives are becoming richer and stock options which are not expensed are being offered to the chosen few. And the jobs flow overseas.

When there is so much wealth in the hands of a few - enough wealth that hundreds of indivivuals could run small countries - something is out of whack. And to those that criticize in-laws that are millionaires - I hope that you have taken precaution to guarantee that none of that "dirty" money flows to you through inheritance :)

....

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Murf
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2004-05-18          86325


ncrunch, thank you sincerely.

The funny part of the whole thing is that as a percentage of total revenues, I make FAR more money than two of my 'competitors' who take every opportunity to kid me about my 'communist' treatment of my employees. They don't seem to realize that the money I put into my employees is an INVESTMENT, it comes back to me many times over. I also get far more out of my employees because they love their job, the company and it's management, they feel like they are part of a family, not just a number.

As an aside to all of that, last year when I had to stop work following a heart attack, two of my employees stepped up and took over the riens without a word. They got NO flack from the rank & file, and in fact I was told afterwards by several people that nobody DARED critisize because of the circumstances. Everybody just pitched in, no grumbling.

The bottom line, the company had it's most profitable year ever, without me ever setting foot through the door. Why, because they wanted to.

The company is doing so well in fact that even though I have now got clearance from my doctor & wife to go back to work full-time I have decided to allow them to continue, I now am just an advisor.

I am taking advantage of the time to enjoy life and my wife's company a little more, and have begun spending a few hours a day working on a new business venture. If things go as planed I will be creating a few more jobs later this summer.

Best of luck. ....

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nhrockcrusher
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 26 Ft. Thomas, Ky.
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2004-05-18          86333


Wish there were more employers out there like that. It is getting old cutting back for the good of the company while the top floor group has their golden parachutes, multi-million dollar payouts and outrageous bonuses. Something I learned from military leadership school is to not ask the people you are commanding to do something you wouldn't do yourself. ....

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ncrunch32
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 762 Kingston, NY
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2004-05-18          86338


Murf, you obviously have the right formula for managing a business. Sounds like the right idea to let your employees handle the business and move on to the next great project. It takes people like you to keep creating the jobs and courage to let go of what you have already accomplished.

My Dad was an apple farmer who got out of the business and recommended that I do other things to make a living. I now have my Ph.D. in statistics and am the forecaster for the IBM mainframe division. Each system sells for $1M and we sell about 2000 per year. Total revenue about $4B per year when you add in other miscellanous stuff. But I often wish that I was able to provide jobs for other people, the way you have.

....

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DRankin
Join Date: Jan 2000
Posts: 5113 Northern Nevada
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2004-05-19          86362


If not for my police union, a rouge mayor named Fink (no joke) would have inflicted a 70 percent pay cut upon me 15 years ago and stolen/raided my retirement fund leaving me with little or nothing.

I owe all I have today to my union and the Alaska legal system. ....

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kwschumm
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 5764 NW Oregon
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2004-05-19          86364


And that is why all retirement and pension funds, including social security, should be untouchable by anyone except the individual employee/taxpayer. ....

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Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999
Posts: 7211 Toronto Area, Ontario, Canada
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2004-05-19          86367


One of the quirks in the canadian system is that pensions, registered retirement funds and life insurance is untouchable, even in the case of bankruptcy. In fact the very first thing most self-employed people up here do when they get a bit of money do is buy a BIG pre-paid 'whole life' policy, that way they basically have a fat savings account that can't be touched.

It takes an Act passed in Parliament to touch them.

Best of luck. ....

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brokenarrow
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 1288 Wisconsin
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2004-05-19          86412


Well from what I have seen of the contract, Deere seems to of got a fair contract for both sides (company/hourly) I cant say the same for CAT. the heads are meeting again this week there and I can only hope the best for them. We are still in limbo with no talks going on as of yet just working with no agreement. We are having a tough time deciding if we should make reservations for the fam. vacation in Colorado this summer (have not gone on one for 5 years) Dont know if I will be working at this place or not (maybe will need to take on anouther job and not have vacation time) All this talk here has brought a nagging idea of mine (that I have had for awhile) My wife and I had a discussed it and I will be starting a class or two this fall and see how it goes. (dont laugh) Engineering! LOL. I am 38 and have seen the light! My trade has lost its appeal to me for a few reasons and one is job security no matter where you look for work no matter how hard or good you do your job, when the company slows down your gone and the jobs are not very plentiful in my area anymore
(gone over seas alot of them have). I am figuring to take a class or 2 every year and hopefully take off work in 3 years and go full time to finish up. Now I may have to take back all those bad thoughts I have had about all you engineers out there! LOL.
I will be on my tractor again next weekend, have a few field to get in soon, all this rain has kept me out and off the tractor for the last few weeks. Cant wait for the seat time and to start my half tan! ....

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jckilleen
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 1 Madison Ohio
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2004-05-20          86455


My father was a hard working union man, a steward and all that stuff. When he went out on strike for 6 months he never regained what was lost. I never understood why union leaders got paid during a strike. If they did not perhaps things would move ahead in negotiations quicker. ....

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yooperpete
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 1413 Northern Michigan
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2004-05-20          86456


Being an engineer isn't always the solution. As these jobs go off-shore, so have many of the technical positions. Many engineers enter up in sales.

There is allot of BS that an engineer needs to contend with. Instanteous creativity and unreal lead times are common. In my case getting disassociated from the auto industry may help. ....

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brokenarrow
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 1288 Wisconsin
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2004-05-20          86473


Yooperpete
I know what you mean about intant decisions and that is one reason I am thinking of advancing my options. For 7 years I worked in R&D most of the times it was, "Hey we need something made up that will support this valve in the new system we are developing, can you make something like this?" That was the engineer talking to me LOL. "OK" And I go ahead and figure out what will work and machine it. Now I have been in a tool room for 71/2 years in anouther company. Guess what? Nothing is different, We have
one (1) engineer that actually engineers ALL the others depend on US to figure out what will work and then make it. OH yea, we then need the approval of the guy who will get the coodo's for the great fixture,gage,tool special machines what have you. I know they have many more important things to do (at my place where I work) than to have to design something that would work, and besides we like the interaction we have along with the satisfaction of patting ourselves on the back. It is also more interesting doing the engineering part of my job than it is to actually make it. Since I know what I will be able to do (if its practical and cost effective to put tolerances on what ever needs tighter fixes) Alot of the newbies we get have no clue how or why you can or cant. Anyway that is why I figure I should go ahead and advance although raising a familly has held me back from this. I am on the end of the raising part so I can "if I want" In a few years quit and hit the books for a couple of years (wife will have to earn her keep for awhile) More than she has been.
How do you like your work? ....

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yooperpete
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 1413 Northern Michigan
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2004-05-21          86492


Brokenarrow:
Sounds to me that you have the knowledge, aptitude and creativity to be a good engineer. Go for it! I'm a design engineer that has to solve problems and deliver products for the manufacturing of parts. Nothing gets made unless I have the drawing for it, so there is no pass the buck here. I know what you mean about some engineers getting someone else to fix or solve the issue and take credit for it. One of my customers patented a workholding device that I made for him. He and the patent attorney didn't have a clue about how some of the components functioned. I laughed when I read the patent claims. It would have cost me $100,000.00 to prosecute. Hayes Lemmerz (Brake Drum manufacturer) filed chapter 11 and the ***hole retired and he sent me a card announcing his retirement and thanked me for working with him during his brilliant career. ....

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DRankin
Join Date: Jan 2000
Posts: 5113 Northern Nevada
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2004-05-21          86502


Interesting thing about thieves, they live in a world populated by their own kind. They find it inconceivable that everyone isn't on the take or stealing everything that isn't tied down.

He considers you a peer. He pulled one off on you while(he thinks) you were busy ripping off someone else.
....

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mkeeney
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 2 Rome, GA
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2004-06-14          88495


So what happened with the contract negotiations? How much of CNH does Fiat own? I haven't found that info on their web site yet. ....

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brokenarrow
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 1288 Wisconsin
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2004-06-14          88532


Fiat owns us.
We are working with no agreement, no extension, and they are not talking. You got me hangin here? I just go to work and do my job wait, watch and listen.
(man dont this thread ever go away?) I feel bad for starting this, and I hope no one holds anything against me, not trying to stir it up just a stupid post with not thinking about the differing opinions about unions.
Brokenarrow ....

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ibid101
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 4 high desert, ca.
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2004-06-14          88533


I was a union carpenter for 10 years and it was good money,very hard work, more dangerous than a cop or fireman.
The one's that weren't top hands were down the road. Now as a G.C., the union provides skilled labor with a phone call.
I still have to weed out the dead wood, but at least the guys have been to apprentice school, don't paint all unions with the broad brush. ....

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Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999
Posts: 7211 Toronto Area, Ontario, Canada
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2004-06-15          88556


I'll have to tell my carpenters how lucky they are to be working in Canada.

In Califonia they would apparently get shot at, have to deal with drunks, people high on drugs, domestic violence, people who don't want to go back to jail, risk their lives dealing with the scum of the earth on a daily basis for people who don't want them there in the first place and then have to work on burning structures to boot!!!

God Bless Canada, all we have to deal with is sunburns and mosquitoes.


Best of luck. ....

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DRankin
Join Date: Jan 2000
Posts: 5113 Northern Nevada
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2004-06-15          88560


:) ....

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ibid101
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 4 high desert, ca.
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2004-06-15          88573


Very nice analogy, and I sure didn't mean to put carpenters in the same work environment as law enforcement/firemen, only that statistics show the injury/death rate to be higher for carpenters. That being said, it is usually the carpenters fault for not paying proper attention, etc....
My intent was to convey that here in SO.CAL.the competition is intense, nobody gets a free ride, the non-union carpenters here are also good craftsmen, so the union guys need to be better to keep their market share. ....

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stevenc
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 190 North Carolina
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2004-06-27          89458


as I understand,,the strike,if there is one,will NOT affect the Boomers (TC) tractors at all ....

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brokenarrow
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 1288 Wisconsin
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2004-11-03          99784


5 months later,,, we are now on strike! The company pulled off the barganing table even more than what was offered before. I am washing my hands of this company and will look for a non-union job in my field of work. The good thing about this is that if I dont find anouther job in a reasonable time and the strike continues for a longer time than I care to wait, I will be able to move my family to where my tractor and farm/property is. Seat time may of just increased for me? ....

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nhrockcrusher
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 26 Ft. Thomas, Ky.
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2004-11-03          99793


Went through a stike myself. They are not nice and can really change the atmosphere of a workplace if and when the strike is over. From bad to really bad. It's a shame that it comes down to this sometimes. Good luck. ....

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tractorbrad
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 55 northeast ohio
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2004-11-04          99835


Good Luck and I hope things work out well for you and your co-workers. Just remember union / non union as long as it's not your name on the company logo management can and will do as it sees fit. Doesn't make it right or wrong just the way it is. ....

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brokenarrow
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 1288 Wisconsin
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2004-11-07          100006


You bet brad, thats also why buisness sometimes goes sour. Deere workers got a pretty good contract last year, up until this year Case (CNH) always followed JD. What they got we got for wages. Makes sense, we make the same product (give or take) Now Fiat owns us (yep foriegn comp.) See where this is going? Its not that we are asking for the sky, just to keep pace with our competition.
John Deere must have better MANAGEMENT practices if they can make money and keep American workers happy. Its not a matter of us rapeing the company, its a matter of how much more money fiat can squeeze out of this country's company's to try and save they're useless car buisness. Thats right, we have been bailing out them for the last few years under restructuring redirection of money. After Wisconsin gave these basturds over 20 million in tax
breaks and incentive money to keep its company here in Racine and build a brand new tractor line, what do they do? Treat the American workers (Wisconsin) like crap.
You see this not only effects us, the company down the road that ships and preps our tractors (wheel weights etc.)
just laid off over 30 men also. The united way wont get the record amount of donations this year, the parts manufacturers will be hurtin for certain. Its a slippery slope we all are on when the American Govt. allows its company's to be bought out by foriegn competitors.
Bitter??? Yes, just a bit but life goes on.
So tractor brad, to respond to your statement, yes management can and will make bad decisions make enough of them and they will be out of jobs also unless they want to move to Itally.
....

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tractorbrad
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 55 northeast ohio
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2004-11-07          100020


I work in a steel mill. The company that I use to work for did not have good upper management plus it had to much management compared to who I work for now. No matter how good a work force is it can't overcome poor management decisions. ....

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AV8R
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 882 North Central Wisconsin
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2004-11-07          100029


I feel it with you Broken. I left my job with a CNH-sub to go back to college and finish my degree. (They are soon to go under too.) Now the only machining I'll do any more is what I do in my own shop. ....

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brokenarrow
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 1288 Wisconsin
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2004-11-08          100080


Well I am on the back side of 30, and only have 4 more years till the youngest of 3 is done with school. After that I am a will be looking into a job that I actually like! LOL. Dont really care what it pays, dont need much. Tired of looking at steel and walls and am ready to burst out. This may be a blessing for if they pack up and move I will too!! Right now I am 300 miles from the seat of my tractor and if they move (cnh) I will move also. Only trouble is I will have to look at that New Holland tractor everyday, just hope I dont feel like I am back in the shop again! LOL.
All will work out, it always does. I plan on taking off till after deer season and then go get a part time job (if anyone will hire a guy on strike?) I figure with strike pay and a part time job I can make it till summer and then decide if I want to move or look for full time employment.
Yep you made the right move AV8. ....

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AV8R
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 882 North Central Wisconsin
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2004-11-08          100083


Broken: I'll turn 34 in January. Yup, I a little out of place here at college, but, it needs to get done. (I owe it to myself) ....

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Kris,From,NC
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 33 North Carolina
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2004-11-09          100115


AV8R, going back to college and finishing your degree is the best thing you could do. I was 31 when I went back to college. I was a mechanic for Otis Elevator company and just was tired of the ups and down with a few jerks in between.

I have now a BS Microbiology, BS in Animal Science, BS in Botany. MS in Biotechnology, MS Microbiology and I have just finished my Ph.D. in Biotechnology. I am now 43 years old making more money then I have ever dreamed of. So donít think about your age when at college just get the best grades you can because there is a golden ring for you also when you finish.
....

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wolftownjeff
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 27 Madison Co. VA near the Sheandoah National Park.
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2004-11-10          100174


Sorry about the loss of work.
Union or not the wages and health insurance are once again forever gone to those workers.
The middle class is starting to disapear.
WalMart pays nothing and hires illegals.
The government does not slow down the rate of jobs leaving the US.
Eron, MCI etc. doesnt help.
Remember INTERNATIONAL HARVESTER!
Brokenarrow I wish you and your family the best of luck!
ps most engineers are now hired from India. :) ....

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shortmagnum
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 848 Wisconsin
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2004-11-11          100193


AV, I was 30+ when I went back to college. It was the best thing I could have done. My first excursion to college at age 18 was one semester that produced a GPA of 0.07 (six packs were 99cents then :-) ). Anyway, being more mature helped alot and let's just say I ended up doing pretty well.

I think you're doing the right thing even if it may take some time. As they say, it's not the destination, it's the journey.
Dave ....

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brokenarrow
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 1288 Wisconsin
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2004-11-11          100231


Kris
How did you start to apply again to college? Isnt it hard to get back in? My son has just been selected for 2 of the first 2 state colleges he applied for but he is in the top 5% of his class of over 600. I dont think I could compete with kids these days LOL. Anyway Glad to hear your doing well and I hope you like your job cause after that impressive resume your going to need a boat load of money to pay off that college bill? (just kiddin kris) I know what it cost for the state colleges around here!
Wolftown
Thanks I can tell you really mean it and that was nice to hear, so many guys now a day have the attitude of oh well too bad! Should of went to school more? Well I can tell ya that when I graduated they all said that "tool and die" was a great field and will be in high demand in the future. They did not count on the chinese when making those predictions.
Av8r and short magnum
You guys are really pushing me to consider college again. Dont laugh but if I went back I would want to be in the medical field (for obvious reasons) Something not too complicated, like a mri tech or something on those lines. My wife is a nurse, she thinks she has it tough those 2 days a week she works for the hospital. LOL She has been one for over 20 years and in myopinion takes her job security for granted. That would be a good feeling!

Anyway, CNH has brought in the replacement workers from out of town, it started with 45 and is now around 100! What do you think this is costing them to house them and such? Management sure can NOT teach these guys what is needed to know about all phases of this operation. Heck when we had our regular guys in there it would take 6 months for some trainees to really understand what they need to look for. I hate to say it but "would you want to buy one of these tractors put together by ALL new hires learning what to do?" Our tractor repair area was always full even with the regular workers cant imagine what it will look like in the future.
This strike is costing others in the community and around the country their jobs also, and I feel bad for them. We are the cause of that and CNH is the answer. We just made boat loads of profit for the last few quarters, dont tell me FIAT can not afford to offer us the same contract that deere has? If they do close up shop here will I be able to even look at my blue tractor? LOL (I think so with the discount I got on it! ) LOL.
Anyway thanks guys for consouling me! I do appreciate it by the way my strike duty is midnight till 6 am!!!!! Kinda sucks eh? ....

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ncrunch32
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 762 Kingston, NY
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2004-11-11          100232


You get much smarter the second time around when you go to school. Don't sell yourself short. School becomes more interesting when you can relate it to your life experience. Your test scores will go up. Just don't get hooked on one of those young babes! ....

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Kris,From,NC
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 33 North Carolina
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2004-11-11          100240


I was also a union worker started at local #21 Dallas Texas. I then moved to Connecticut local #91. I them moved to Pennsylvania local #6. I then I finally moved to North Carolina and was just upset at how the unions work here that some company have open shops, coming from the north there was a name for those people.

I then decided to go back to school to become a veterinarian, but I fell in love in the microbe and decided that this was the direction I wanted to go, of which I feel Biotechnology is the future.

I also got one of my MS by Internet so that worked out great. Saved a lot of time for other classes. I have always enjoyed learning new thing and college came lets say easy. The kids in class would rather party and I was always in the library writing and doing research. One thing that was great that I was the same age as my professors so I was going out to lunch with them and doing research in their lab also. That came in handy for my dissertations as will as co publishing with them.

My GPA was 3.87 in my undergrad work and 4.00 in graduate school. This is very good. But remember even a 2.0 will give you a degree but company look at your grades more then you think they do (I know I hire people now). But donít let that stop you, take one class to get your grove back and then attack attack those books.

You may want to look at community college first to get all the classes that you must take and transfer to the four-year college (I donít know what year your in).

Kris
....

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AV8R
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 882 North Central Wisconsin
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2004-11-11          100244


Broken: If you are interested in what I am taking to be able to finish a BS in 1 year (!) Drop me a message, I'll turn it on. ....

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shortmagnum
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 848 Wisconsin
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2004-11-12          100257


"How did you start to apply again to college? Isnt it hard to get back in? My son has just been selected for 2 of the first 2 state colleges he applied for but he is in the top 5% of his class of over 600. I dont think I could compete with kids these days LOL."

First of all most of the "non traditional" students do well when admitted to college. This is mostly because they don't have the pressures that younger people have so it's really easier for older people to be accepted than for 18 year olds. Plus, older people have more drive to get done.

MRI tech:
I work with mri techs every day (I'm a research scientist in MRI). They make pretty decent money and most all of them seem pretty satisfied with their positions. It really is a good job in that they get to know a fair amount of technology as well as have the satisfaction of helping people. One of fishing friends is what I call a supertech. He works for a major mri manufacturer and teaches new protocols to the Docs and techs. So there is no limit to how far you can go. I don't think this direction is wrong at all.
Dave ....

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nhrockcrusher
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 26 Ft. Thomas, Ky.
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2004-11-12          100262


Don't let your age slow you down. My wife, at nearly 40 years of age, is back in the grind at a local university in the radiology program. Most of the students are not too many years out of high school and at first my wife did feel a little out of place but she got over that quickly. We know a professor at the same university and told us that the faculty enjoys instructing older students because they are generally more focused and are there to learn and not party. Jump in with both feet, work hard and enjoy the benefits and rewards in a few years.
....

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kyvette
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 194 Central Kentucky
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2004-12-03          101486


I just wanted to comment on the strike situation, that I feel for you guys. I was laid off from my job as a field service engineer in the medical field in the late 70's. Therefore I can somewhat understand what you are going through.

A comment on going back to college, it's never too late. I have a BS degree in engineering and when back to school(about 8 years later) to take a few courses to better prepare myself to take the professional engineering exams. It's difficult going to school, having a family, and working full time, but well worth it in the long run.

As to competing with college kids today, depends on your field. I have a sophomore at the University of Kentucky working part time for me. He is majoring in math and computer science. There is no way I could compete with him today in those fields.

I would suggest you consider courses of study that aren't demanding in computers and/or math. This is where us older guys will have the most difficulty. Just because you are comfortable with the Microsoft office products doesn't mean you are a computer whiz, far from it.

My youngest daughter is in nursing school at UK and will graduate next year. This is an excellent field due to the demand for nurses and, depending on your location, beginning salaries can be in the upper $30's to $50K.

Hope this helps and good luck to all of you. Dave ....

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AnnBrush
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 462 Troy OH
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2004-12-03          101492


Hi there Dave
Good to see there are some UK fans out there. I am a UK alum, nutrition and statistics, graduated in 2001. Now following wildcat Basketball in Ohio. After my initial graduation (M.S. - University of Natal, South Africa) I worked for Eli Lilly (Agricultural division - Elanco) for a few years then hit a glass ceiling and had to go back to college (University of Kentucky). It was hard, I had become used to the money and having time to myself, the stint at UK was difficult, flat broke and seemed to work 24 / 7. It was WELL worth the effort. Make sure you can apply what you do in college directly to a job.
Cheers ....

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kwschumm
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 5764 NW Oregon
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2004-12-03          101496


AnnBrush, since you're a statistician I'm a little curious. On your profile you say you have 1834732 moles. Is that a statistical estimate or a SWAG? LOL ....

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AnnBrush
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 462 Troy OH
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2004-12-03          101498


Its an estimate based on the number of dead moles my beagles dig up and present to me divided by the number of miles of trenches they dig in finding such moles. Actually to be frank I have had very good success in controling moles in the yard surrounding the house - combination of heavy trapping and beagle encouragement. Summer of 2004 was mole free in my lawns. I guess I should revise the estimate downward. As for the pastures - well I guess its still mole heaven. Have a great weekend. ....

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beagle
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 1333 Michigan
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2004-12-03          101500


Our beagles erradicated almost 3 acres of moles in two years. The only problem we had with it was their proud technique of delivering the captured moles to you wherever you happened to be at the time. Found several of the moles on the family room furniture, waiting for our return. ....

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AnnBrush
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 462 Troy OH
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2004-12-03          101501


Glad to see someone else has been down that road. ....

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beagle
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 1333 Michigan
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2004-12-03          101503


We have a dog door flap that allows the beagles to come and go at will. If we aren't around at the time, they bring the prizes in and deposit them someplace where we will find them. Man are they proud of that stuff. ....

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Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999
Posts: 7211 Toronto Area, Ontario, Canada
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2004-12-03          101505


You folks are lucky you have beagles, I have Jack Russell Terriers (Terrors maybe more appropriate) and my main man, Deputy Dog, Jackson, is more ambitious.... mole, chipmunk and squirrel carcasses are not so bad to put up with......

You don't want to know how big an area can be messed up with blood and feathers from just one wild turkey...

Best of luck. ....

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kubotachick
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 116 illinois/wisconsin
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2004-12-03          101508


does everyone name their jack russel deputy dog? This is like the third person that i know that has the same dog with the same name...and let me tell you, that dog was the worst dog i think i have ever met in my life ....

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Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999
Posts: 7211 Toronto Area, Ontario, Canada
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2004-12-03          101512


They have an attitude problem, the problem is they have elephant-sized attitude trapped in a 20'ish pound body. We call it "Jack-itude". People up the road from me have a 100+ pound german sheppard that refuses to walk past my house now, they were walking him off his leash one day and he ran into my front yard towards my wife, BIG boo-boo, before he knew what was going on my Jack was hanging in the air from his throat and shaking him, or trying anyway.

Mine is named Jackson, but if I move he is at my left heel, period. If he hears the diesel lightup he had better be sitting on the console watching where we're going or else.

If a Jack Russell was the worst dog you ever met I'm willing to bet it was owned by the worst dog owner you'd ever met too.

No dog is any better than it's handling & training.

Best of luck. ....

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kubotachick
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 116 illinois/wisconsin
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2004-12-03          101516


yeah, well, the only thing big about this dog was his mouth. i had an upstairs apartment and this dog would start barking as soon as the dude downstairs went to work and wouldn't shut up until he came home. It drove me to drink, (oh, and it pooped alot too) ....

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kyvette
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 194 Central Kentucky
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2004-12-04          101591


Ann, nice to know there are UK fans in Ohio. UK didn't do very well this afternoon in their game at North Carolina. Oh well, we have two freshman starting but we have owned NC the last four outings. Gave them their second worse home court loss in '02.

The threads on this board are interesting in how they ramble from one subject to the next. This one began as a possible strike and ends up talking about dogs and moles, and now basketball.

Ann, maybe you ought to setup a program to determine what percentage of the threads stay on the subject from beginning to end. I bet it would be small.

Wife is wanting to go out for dinner, better sign off. Dave ....

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jwngej
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 53 Wisconsin
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2004-12-09          102007


Brokenarrow, Too bad about the lockout/strike. I am a retiree from CNH, just down the road from you, Waupaca, I also worked for Case, Case IH, and now have little to do with CNH. I started just out of high school in 1965 . I went through 2 yrs. of training through Gateway for tool and cutter grinding upstairs in the Clausen works. I went into experimental and finally took the machinist training program they had in the tool room for 2 years. I ended my time working there at T-plant tool room basically running the Big boring bar or anything else the boss said to do.. I mostly enjoyed my job except for all the forced overtime. I am wondering when you started. I was medically retired in 88. I have a lot of tractor time for myself and am doing it in the dirt with a new Mahindra 2015 with FEL. "diggin it", John ....

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brokenarrow
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 1288 Wisconsin
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2004-12-12          102138


jwngej
Well hello!!! You must of worked with Wayne S. He is my boss now. I worked with Lee S. and Gerry Klink-----
And manyn others I am sure you know. (both of which are retired by the way) I also work with a son of Nitz His father is also retired.
I started in 97. I also am a tool and die maker who spent time in a salery position at anouther company in R&D.
Hey John, you do qualify for the New Holland/ Case discount if you buy a new tractor. If your ever in the market tell me and I will set you up with a great dealer and all the paper work to get that discount. When all the bells and whistles are rung (and you get the right dealer who WANTS to sell you a tractor under the FULL plan you get an awesome deal! Nice to hear from you and if you want any more info or updates let me know!
TOM ....

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jwngej
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 53 Wisconsin
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2004-12-12          102141


Hi Tom. Glad to hear from you. I actually worked for Wayne, he was assistant foreman when I worked in the toolroom upstairs at Clausen. Lee was an apprentice when I started there and while I was training Gerry was also working there. I worked for J. Zitkus at the t-plant. Too bad the way things are going, It was a good place to make a decent living. I never even thought about a discount when I bought mine, a 2015 Mahindra with a fel, oh yes it is a --His Sissy Tractor--HST, lol, I read your bit about gear drive being for real men.. As I read these quite a bit, I will watch for you and keep in touch, and if I decide to buy another, I will definately check the discount out.. thanks for answering and hopefully this lockout will end soon......John ....

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brokenarrow
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 1288 Wisconsin
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2004-12-14          102206


Ok Buddy and if you ever need anything made when we get back dont be a stranger, I drive by you often.
Also there is a fine line between being a sissy and just being cheap (I am the later) ....

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brokenarrow
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 1288 Wisconsin
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2004-12-16          102385


I heard Cat just settled their contract? If it was what I heard it was, they done ok. We are going backwards, and a school buss full of (honest what looked like convicts on work release) went into our training center today to learn some shop safetey before entering the shop.
Anouther company that is about 3 miles from us just anounced they are going to close the doors and move. They had a contract dispute, the company wants them to take a 46% wage cut! I believe it is around 600 employees and citizens of our comunity that are now out of jobs. Boys, this is getting out of hands in this country! I will tell you all that it is just a matter of time (if companys keep closing here in the uas) before most of the engineers will have to learn chineese to have a job. I am thinking about baleing out of here soon. I will get as far from manufacturing in any way-shape-or form. Management, engineers,machinests,etc. Beware what you ask for or who you bash, you could be looking for a job in a environment or market that is shrinking also. Do you know what happens when there are more people in your line of work than there are jobs? I wish the best for all here over the holidays and good luck next year. I think I will go check out a greener pasture right after the holidays.
Take care guys! ....

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brokenarrow
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 1288 Wisconsin
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2005-03-17          108178


Unreal man! Company and the useless union talked for a week and a half. The union was begging the top negotiator to come back to the table and actually bargain. After 1 1/2 weeks company finally said what we offered you is it, bring it to your membership or we will encact plan "B". LOL I hope not, but I would bet a weeks pay these spinless workers will ratify the garbage offer presented to us. It is supposed to be worse than Way Cat's and we all know that Cat's is way worse than John deer's. Looks like JD is still the best employee company to work for. Its no wonder they make a great tractor, they take as much pride in their work force as they do in manufacturing tractors. We will vote sometime this week sooner than later. What really stinks is that this will put a stop on our spring break trip we planned with our family. Reason being is because after 8 years of me working here I still get 2 weeks (10 days) vacation a year! LOL I was hoping nothing would be done till after a nice trip with the family since we have gone no where since the strike/lock out.
Hmmm,,, I was just getting used to having my wife carry us too! LOL ....

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oneace
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 1490 south central pa
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2005-03-17          108181


10 Days that really sucks. I got that my very first day at the company I work for now. Next year i will have 15 days after only three years. Do yo take it bending over or lying down?
....

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brokenarrow
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 1288 Wisconsin
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2005-03-17          108186


The company I have my application in at offers 2 weeks at your 1 year aniversary. 1 more week at the 2 year aniversry. 1 more at 5yrs and 1 more at 10 and 1 more at 15.
So if I read the information correct it looks like at 10 years you would have 5 weeks off. THAT is a company that puts family life and worker happiness at its for front. BUT The guys around here, have only themselves to blame, most fella's I know actually turn in vacation for money at the end of the year!! What a bunch of fools! And you wonder why company's dont want to offer more vacation time, they might as well just give a raise cause many turn it in for money anyway.
Oh well, I am getting HOT again so I better shut up. The more I talk about this the more I raise my blood pressure.LOL ....

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oneace
Join Date: Mar 2004
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2005-03-17          108188


I think it is 15 years to get 5 weeks but I can turn in any over time and apply it to vacation. I hate working so I take as much time off as I can get. Then when all the free vacation is gone I start working boat loads of O.T. to get more. ....

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jwngej
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 53 Wisconsin
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2005-03-17          108189


Hey Broken, damned if they do and damned if they don't , It still will be a good place to work. There are probably 20,000 people in Racine who would quit their jobs and jump at the chance to have a job there. Let them, then move up here where you really want to be, and be happy again, you been stressed tooooooooooo long.. Good luck either way, John ....

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jamese
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 65 NC
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2005-03-17          108198


I wish you all the best! I would hate to be in the middle of what is going on! ....

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brokenarrow
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2005-03-17          108203


jwngej
You have not seen the new offer! I have to disagree with you. People will not quit a decent job to go there anymore. ....

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