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front turfs reversed

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crashey
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 11 mass
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2010-05-31          171252


I swapped my ag1 tires for titan multi tracs today and put the fronts with the valve on the inside. That way I have a wider track by perhaps 4 inches. Since my b7800 is pretty tippy I wanted to gain stability. Anyone try this before and what were the results. So far it seems more stable than the Ag1 tires and my rear turfs are not loaded, unlike the ags.

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auerbach
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 2168 West of Toronto
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2010-05-31          171253


Better check with Kubota. On some others, the rears can be reversed but not recommended for the fronts. ....

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Art White
Join Date: Jan 2000
Posts: 6898 Waterville New York
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2010-06-01          171257



We do mount them in reverse for additional stability on grades.

If they are loaded and you have a loader we never do that. ....

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earthwrks
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 3853 Home Office in Flat Rock, Michigan
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2010-06-01          171262


Art, I can't believe that you as a dealer who could be sued for altering a machine especially if it rolls over and kills someone could say something as stupid and irresponsible as the above. Yup I said it. People come here for relaible advice and you give them that

So explain how reversing any type of tire and rim to make the tractor front wider increases stability. LOL before you waste your time I'll answer if for you: it doesn't. You still have the same tire footprint on the ground you still have the same front axle that pivots under the engine. Like I've said countless times you could make the front axle 20 feet wide and it would be the same as a 1 foot wide axle. Why? The axle pivots in the center with absolutely NO resistance in the form of a spring or some sort of suspension.

To answer the OP all you are doing is adding increased leverage by sevral times--5-10 times depending on where the bearing races are. And you are increasing many times times over the possibility for bump steer---which if ocurrs under the right circumstances such as high speed and a hole or bump could rip the steering wheel out of your hands or result in a broken or dislocated finger, or even flip the tractor over from it steering quickly to one direction ....

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Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999
Posts: 7199 Toronto Area, Ontario, Canada
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2010-06-01          171265


Quote:
Originally Posted by earthwrks | view 171262
[QUOTE=earthwrks;171262] So explain how reversing any type of tire and rim to make the tractor front wider increases stability.LOL before you waste your time I'll answer if for you: it doesn't.

You still have the same tire footprint on the ground you still have the same front axle that pivots under the engine.

Like I've said countless times you could make the front axle 20 feet wide and it would be the same as a 1 foot wide axle. Why? The axle pivots in the center with absolutely NO resistance in the form of a spring or some sort of suspension.

To answer the OP all you are doing is adding increased leverage by sevral times --5-10 times depending on where the bearing races are. [/QUOTE]

Jeff, how is it you cannot see how a wider front wheel track can add stability in the first three paragraphs above, but you can in the last one?

While I will agree with you that the axle pivots, BUT, there certainly are stops on it that will prevent it from rotating on that pivot when it reaches a certain point. If the tractor hits those stops before it rolls, and the axle is wide enough to keep the center of mass within the center of gravity at that point, it stays on it's wheels.

Think of a tripod, the wider the legs are splayed the further the Center of Gravity needs to be to exceed the balance and reach the tipping point.

The same applies with this tractor. If the axle hits the stops before the tractor reaches it's balance point it's only a big thrill, not a big spill!

The wider the front axle, the more likely it is the axle will hit the stops sooner rather than too late.

Using your admittedly exaggerated illustration above, a 1' axle would project 6" each side of the pivot, but a 20' axle would project 10' each side.

Which one do you think will reach the tipping point first?



Best of luck. ....

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harvey
Join Date: Sep 2000
Posts: 1544 Moravia, NY
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2010-06-01          171269


Width = Stability! You run the old narrow front ends on a side hill farm then then run wide front ends even with the pivot point you'll know the difference.

....

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kthompson
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 5242 South Carolina
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2010-06-01          171280


Jeff, you do realize many especially two wheel drive tractors come with front axles to widen them. I realize maybe the biggest reason at least on some models it to match crop rows or such. I have changed the front end on Ford, Massey, Case and Kubota that were all two wheel drive. On those tractors it did not create any extra steering leverage as the linkage was made to do so. Now if I were to just add spaces between the hubs and the rims that might.

Along that note look up the potato harvester picture Murf posted a couple of weeks back and think on those spacer and front steering whip.

Never had drive a tricycle tractor but have lawn mower, give me the wider front end. I'm with Harvey. ....

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front turfs reversed

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crashey
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 11 mass
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2010-06-01          171295


Wow! I thought about the bearing forces but as my fronts are not loaded, the tread is multi directional, and I removed the loader, I thought it made sense for stability on a side hill. It feels way more stable than my ag1 tires but that could be just the width of the turfs.

So what I'm asking is where is the harm and does anyone do his or am I he only jerk. It's no sweat to swap back. Bearing wear?

thanks

crashey ....

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Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999
Posts: 7199 Toronto Area, Ontario, Canada
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2010-06-01          171298


The way I look at it is, if the manufacturer thought the forces were excessive, they wouldn't have [u[designed[/u] the rims in such a way as to be reversible.

As an example, we have some pretty wide set units for turf maintenance, some of them have 12k+ hours on them in that setup, no issues yet.

Best of luck. ....

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hardwood
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 3583 iowa
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2010-06-01          171299


Cashey;
I've never reversed the front rims on my 4310 Deere, and I'm not real sure they can be to widen the stance. My reason being because the wider spaced front wheels can be a nusicance with the loader when trying to get close along side of something.
Perhaps the design of the steering arms, tie rods, etc were engeneered to stand the extra stress of the additional leverage they are dealt when the wheels are reversed, I don't know, that's another subject. ....

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earthwrks
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 3853 Home Office in Flat Rock, Michigan
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2010-06-01          171300


Murf all things considered if the machine is already side-hilled having axle stops is moot especially when a rear leaves the ground with the fronts still on the ground; by the time the stops hit you're already overturned--- 20' wide or 1' wide. If you're going to make anything wider it should be the rears. ....

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kwschumm
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 5764 NW Oregon
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2010-06-01          171302


With a 20' wide front axle it would become a backward tricycle! ....

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magicheater
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 29 Wisconsin
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2010-06-02          171303


Quote:
Originally Posted by crashey | view 171295
Wow! I thought about the bearing forces but as my fronts are not loaded, the tread is multi directional, and I removed the loader, I thought it made sense for stability on a side hill. It feels way more stable than my ag1 tires but that could be just the width of the turfs. So what I'm asking is where is the harm and does anyone do his or am I he only jerk. It's no sweat to swap back. Bearing wear?thankscrashey
I did it for a little while w/R4's. I have a B7800 and loader. I ultimately found different rims (12") and some Carlisle trencher tires that matched up to the static loaded radius. I gained 4" in track and that much again in flotation AND the offset on the rim perfectly matches the machine. Did not feel comfortable with the reversed r4's although I did feel the stability increase. ....

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Art White
Join Date: Jan 2000
Posts: 6898 Waterville New York
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2010-06-02          171304



I think that the bearing surfaces would make a difference as well. Will it help yes, as when the stops pick up it should as Murf stated not be a total roll unless it already is predestined.

The rears are fixed and a better start then the fronts. ....

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hardwood
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 3583 iowa
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2010-06-02          171306


KT; I drove tricycle tractors long before I ever drove a wide front tractor. The tricicyles far outnumberd wide fronts because the first front mounted row crop cultivators either wouldn't fit or were hard to make fit and tractor mouinted ear corn pickers were widely used. There were a few farmers who had wide fronts and would switch to a narrow front for the cultivator and picker, but most just used them as a narrow front for everything.
Backing a four wheeled wagon into a shed was a several times a day thing when we and most every farmer had lots of livestock and feed wagons were pulled to and from the hammermill before grinder mixers cane to be. Most of the wide fronts of that era wouldn't turn very short and were just too clumbsy for backing a wagon. There were a few standard tread tractors around but not very often as in the wheat country where corn pickers and row crop things weren't used. ....

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Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999
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2010-06-02          171308


Jeff, you're missing two key points in all of this ole' buddy.

First, and most important, the old adage, 'it's a bunch easier to stop something from moving than it is to stop something already moving. Witness a secure load, doesn't take much to hold it still, but even a big headache rack might not stop it if it's moving forward when you stop.

Likewise, the wider front end just might be the difference between reaching the tip point, and almost reaching it.

From a physics point of view (from the National Ag safety Database);

The central concept in tractor stability/instability is Center of Gravity (CG). A tractors CG is the point where all parts balance one another. For example, when a two-wheel drive tractor is sitting with all wheels on level ground, the CG is typically about 10 inches (25.4 cm) above and two feet (0.6 m) in front of the rear axle, and in the center of the tractor body. This results in approximately 30 percent of the tractor weight on the front axle, and 70 percent on the rear axle. For four wheel drive and center-articulated tractors, the CG is located slightly more forward. Added weights also effect the CG.

For a tractor to stay upright, its CG must stay within the tractors stability baseline. Stability baselines are imaginary lines drawn between points where tractor tires contact the ground.

While a tractor's CG does not move, its relationship with stability baselines may change. This most often occurs as the tractor moves from a level position onto a slope. A changing CG-stability baseline relationship means the tractor is moving toward an unstable position. If the CG-stability baseline relationship changes significantly (e.g. tractor CG vector moves beyond the stability baseline), the tractor rolls over."

In other words, the wider the tires, the wider the 'CG-stability baseline' is, the further you have to tip a tractor before you reach the point of rollover.

Now, as to the flip before the stops hit, that's assuming that the front axle is exactly parallel with the rear axle.

If, for instance, the tractor was moving side-slope with the downhill side to the operators left, and the left rear tire dropped into a hole (ground hog?). This would cause the rear axle to pivot to the left, causing the front axle to move nearer to it's left-hand stop before the right wheel ever left the ground.

In this circumstance both the front axle would have significant function in maintaining stability, and the wider front end would be instrumental in that.

This is just one example.


Best of luck. ....

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bvance
Join Date: Jul 2004
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2010-06-05          171339


Me thinks Jeff owes Art an apology.

And I will put my money on Murf's advice every time.

Brian ....

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