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4100 pump problems

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outlander54
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 4 St. Marys, Ont
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2009-01-12          159368


Hi
I have a 1998 4100 HST.
In Nov 2006 I had to replace the charge pump (parts on service bill AM879432, AM879433, AM880337, CH10568), Trans/Hyd oil & filter (LVU800097) after 720hrs. The problem started out as the power steering would be hard to turn and got easier as the tractor ran (warmed up). Then got to a point where it was always hard to turn. The dealer said the high pressure or charge pump was gone.
Well now in Jan 2009 and at 939hrs the problem is surfacing again. I do not believe the pump should go this soon with normal wear. Does anyone know of anything that maybe contributing to these failures? All oils are changed as recommended and always kept up. I have also notice now that while snow plowing you get a hot hydraulic oil smell.
Thanks for any suggestions.


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4100 pump problems

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candoarms
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 1932 North Dakota
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2009-01-12          159370


Outlander54,

There are many different possible causes for what happened to your tractor. I'll list a few of them, in no particular order of importance.

If anything here pops out at you, let's discuss the possibilities. A lot of this depends on your storage and use of the tractor.

1. Condensation of moisture in the hydraulic sump. (many factors can speed up this process)

2. Low hydraulic oil levels.

3. Oil that is too heavy for your climate.

4. Placing high demands on the hydraulic systems prior to reaching proper operating temperature.

5. Hydraulic oil cooling system has failed.

6. Oil viscosity is too low for your climate, causing premature wear.

7. Sump screen is plugged, or nearly plugged.


Joel
....

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4100 pump problems

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jdgreen
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 231 Maryland
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2009-01-12          159374


You might want to check all of the oil lines from pump to the steering to make sure nothing is bent or kinked. Since you are smelling the oil, I think it is overheating for some reason. A kinked line, bad relief valve, overload from oversized tires or too much weight on front axle could do this. ....

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4100 pump problems

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outlander54
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 4 St. Marys, Ont
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2009-01-12          159375


Hi Candoarms
I am in the southern Ontario area. Winters around -15C and summers +27C are general limits. The traoctr is kept in a garage attached to the house.

Oil is checked regularly and I keep it full. Never have noticed any moisture on the dip stick.

I use the Hy-Gard LoVis recommended by JD.

In the summer the tractor is used to cut ~3 acres of grass with a 60" belly mower. Winter time pushing snow with a 54" blade and 300ft of stone driveway. Other times involve rototiller for garden, loader for moving mulch for flower beds, or a rear mower for cutting tall grass around the woodlot. I would say the hardest work is summer grass at high RPM and snow pushing generally around 2000RPM.

The sump screen is something I need to check. A job for this weekend.

From the CD manuals I have it shows there is a hydrostatic pump and a charge pump. On the 4100 the power steering comes from the charge pump, I believe on other models there was a separate pump. Oil from the 4.2gpm charge pump (gear unit) goes through the steering control pressure control valve set at 270psi to the power steering control valve. The variable displacement piston pump (12.6gpm) only feeds the hyrdostatic motor. I can forward pdf pages from the Tech manual if anyone needs them.
....

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candoarms
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 1932 North Dakota
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2009-01-13          159381


Outlander54,

Thanks for the reply. I might be able to help you through this.

If you haven't yet checked the sump screen, please do so immediately.

All fluid in your hydraulic system passes through the sump intake screen before being pumped through the hydraulic system.

If your sump screen is plugged, the charge pump will starve for fluid....essentially running it dry. This can destroy a pump in only a few minutes time. It can also cause the oil to become extremely hot.

Your screen may not appear to be plugged. Ice crystals can form on the screen when the tractor is cold. These ice crystals will melt once the oil warms up a bit. In the meantime, however, the ice can block off the flow to the hydraulic pumps, causing cavitation to occur.

There's some debate as to whether or not a sump screen is a good idea. Most hydraulics experts HATE the things.

Here's another good example of why it would be a good idea to install a temperature gauge in the hydraulic lines. If you're smelling hot oil, there's a very good possibility that your system is overheating. Cavitation is a major cause of excessive heat.

________________

Cavitation A circumstance that occurs in pumps when existing space is not filled by available fluid. Cavitation will deteriorate the hydraulic oil and cause erosion of the inlet metal.

________________

Joel
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DRankin
Join Date: Jan 2000
Posts: 5111 Northern Nevada
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2009-01-19          159591


This thread woke me up. I realized that it had been 5 years since I had changed the HST fluids in my 4115.

I had only run the thing about 275 hours in the 5 years but still, its been 5 years.

So this was the second change, the first was at the 50 hour mark. This time, the intake screen had a significant amount of iron filings adhering to the built in magnets. It was by no means blocked but it was real dirty.

There was a lot of what looked like mud stuck to the magnets. it was obviously very, very fine steel or iron particles.

They were so fine that they could easily pass through the intake screen and I wondered if there was enough of that stuff generated in the system to block or compromise the spin-on filter.

Anyway, it got me to thinking that it might be a good idea to change the filter more often than the actual oil. Although it would be problematic as the filter is very low in the system and considerable oil would be lost in the transition from one filter to the next.

Maybe the answer is to have a clean bucket to catch and recycle the spillage. What do you guys think? ....

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4100 pump problems

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kwschumm
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 5764 NW Oregon
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2009-01-19          159592


That's probably not a bad idea. There are filter cones that the oil could be drained through, then change the filter and pour it back in.

My Bandit chipper uses 30 gallons of 30 weight oil in the hydraulics and the manual never says how often it should be changed, but it does specify filter change intervals. Hydraulic oil probably doesn't take near the beating as motor oil in engines. ....

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4100 pump problems

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kwschumm
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 5764 NW Oregon
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2009-01-19          159593


You know, as I think about it there are water filtering funnels made for diesel fuel. I wonder if they'd work on hydraulic oil? ....

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4100 pump problems

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candoarms
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 1932 North Dakota
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2009-01-19          159594


Drankin,

Five years is quite a long time for any oil to be kept in an open container. Hydraulic sumps, axles, engine blocks......these are nothing more than vented containers, in which moisture can accumulate through the natural process of "breathing".

If the oil appears to be clean and free of moisture, there's nothing "wrong" with re-using it. However the cost of new oil, for me, is about the same as making an insurance payment. I sleep better at night knowing that there's positively nothing wrong with the oil.

Compact tractor owners face some tough decisions. We don't put enough hours on our tractors to justify these frequent oil changes. However, if we also take into consideration the number of hours our tractors are exposed to the elements between oil changes, I believe most of us would change our fluids more often.

In your case, your tractor was exposed to heat, humidity, rain, snow, mud, etc........for over 43,000 hours since your last hydraulic oil change.

Joel ....

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4100 pump problems

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Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999
Posts: 7206 Toronto Area, Ontario, Canada
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2009-01-19          159596


A couple of points stick out here to me.

First off, if the pump is going bad, the power it makes is highest when the machine (and oil) is cold and thick, not hotter and thinner.

Secondly, although it's a long shot I'd be thinking even if it's not contributing to the problem, using a machine for snow then parking it inside is a recipe for condensation in all the fluids, including fuel, not just that one.

Mark, the 'mud' you are describing is likely the worn brake linings, being steel impregnated and the brakes running in the oil, they stick to the magnet.

Best of luck. ....

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kthompson
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 5242 South Carolina
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2009-01-19          159599


Saturday a week ago I change most fuilds on my two Kubota's. Glad I was sitting down when I figured total cost of right at $500. Filters and fluids. Have to pull the filter screen out of the hydrostat even after putting in new fluid as I missed that and if it is good will put that fluid back. Also have to change out front axle on 4 wheel drive.

Saturday went to excavator and did something never before for me...pulled off water seperator and had to let it sit in sunshine so the ice would come out! To those of you that have snow and sub freezing temps so much of the year, you have my sympthay. Hurricans are no so bad when compared to freezing temps for just two full days. Oh today, it may snow tonight but not likely (love those weather people) as it is shirt sleeve weather even for me! ....

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4100 pump problems

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Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999
Posts: 7206 Toronto Area, Ontario, Canada
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2009-01-19          159604


Quote:
Originally Posted by kthompson | view 159599
To those of you that have snow and sub freezing temps so much of the year, you have my sympthay. Hurricans are no so bad when compared to freezing temps for just two full days.


I spent a bit of Sunday digging up the snow banks and dumping them into what, come spring, will be my pond.

After just a couple of snowstorms the piles at the road were tall enough that my (tall'ish) lady sitting up in a 4x4 was having a problem to see over them.

We did get a bit of snow this weekend though, it started Friday mid-day and by this morning when it stopped we had got probably about another foot of the white stuff.

It was up to nearly freezing though, to us that is shirt sleeve weather too. ;)

Best of luck.

....

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earthwrks
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 3853 Home Office in Flat Rock, Michigan
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2009-01-20          159627


Kenny that $500--geewiz that's only what, half a insurance premium commission? ....

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4100 pump problems

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outlander54
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 4 St. Marys, Ont
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2009-01-26          159852


Update
I finally had time to drain the oil this weekend. Cleaned the suction screen, it was dirty with small particles and the magnets had a metal sludge around them. Replaced the filter and filled it with new oil. The oil coming out of the rear screen drain was clear. The oil from the two brake drains and the drain by the mid PTO had a white tinge to it. So there was some water there.

The oil was in a heated area so when I started the tractor up everything worked fine. The power steering worked first time. I figured the real test would be the next day after everything got cold over night. Sunday went out to snow plow and the power steering worked right from the start and the plow went up and down nice and smooth. Used it again tonight and everything is still working fine.

The oil had 220hrs on it since the charge pump was replaced two years ago.

candoarms, and everyone else thanks for the help and suggestions.

....

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candoarms
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 1932 North Dakota
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2009-01-26          159855


Outlander54,

I'm very happy to hear that your tractor is back in good health. Always happy to hear a story with a good ending.

Joel ....

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candoarms
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 1932 North Dakota
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2009-01-26          159856


Outlander54,

I'm reminded of an old saying we have up here in cold country.

"-40 gives a whole new meaning to the term, Hard Water".

Joel

....

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4100 pump problems

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acerguy
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 69 Wisconsin
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2009-01-30          159952


Outlander54, I feel your pain. I had to have my pump and drive replaced last year about this time. WOW! Took a big chunk of change out of my garage-building fund! Now I'm super paranoid about every sound and movement. I hope your problem is solved. ....

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