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hardwood
Join Date: Dec 2002
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2007-08-29          145168


Art mentioned in another thread about the windmills poping up in his neighborhood. I've been quite fascinated by them since we have a son involved in all this who keeps me up to speed on their development. The ones he works with are shipped in three 70 ft. tower sections topped by a headhouse holding a a three blade prop with composite blades ninety ft. long. I can't remember the KW rating. Anyhow the group he works with has enough of them sold that they must produce two complete windmills every three working days. This same son is also involved somewhat in the ethanol production industry, so I get a lot of tech. data from him that is sometimes beyond my comprehension. I don't know if we are building windmills fast enough and putting up ethanol plants fast enough to heep ahead of the demand growth or not. I do find the windmills fascinating in that we are harnessing a free source of power, but we may tire of looking at them Frank.

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SG8NUC
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2007-08-29          145179


Frank,

I dont think the windmills will be a problem when we are looking at them from inside our air-conditioned and heated homes. I wish your son the best this is indeed a worth while Job. I'll take two windmills if the payments can be streched out over a long period of time.

Phil ....

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earthwrks
Join Date: Dec 2003
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2007-08-29          145180


There are other types of windmills. One type is called Darius Rotor. According to the research I did 30 yeas ago it was one of the more efficent types. Mother Earth News showed ho to make a mill using stacked and halved 55 gallon drums. I built a small one and it worked great. The nice thing about the rotor types I mentioned is that do not have to be oriented into the wind.

Two of our local cities are getting invloved in windmills too to sell energy back to the power co's. ....

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kwschumm
Join Date: Feb 2003
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2007-08-29          145182


I'm waiting for the technology to become less intrusive. There are new designs that pretty much can be mounted on or near almost any home. They take less space, make less noise, and kill far fewer birds. Popular Mechanics has a link to one that Jay Leno is building (below). I sure like that magazine.

[Edit] OK, the link to Jay Leno's wind power stuff keeps getting deleted so you can go to PopularMechanics dot com and search for "wind power". It's right there.

[Edit] I put the link in and it works DennisCTB
[Edit] Thanks, Dennis, I just got around to retrying it and I see you were here first. ....


Link:   Jay Leno Wind Mill

 
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yooperpete
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 1413 Northern Michigan
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2007-08-29          145192


In Michigan's thumb area, a windmill facility was started. A whole bunch of people got upset. They felt there were ugly. Some farmer sold a bunch of land, and they tried stopping them. I guess they may have a couple up and running. It sounds like a good idea to me. When driving up in Northern Michigan along I-75 a couple can be seen just before getting to the bridge. ....

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kwschumm
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2007-08-29          145193


Somewhere in the recesses of my brain is the nagging feeling that there is a downside to windmills that nobody is seeing. I'm not talking about bird kills or visual blight, I'm talking about Newton's third law which says that for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. If billions of windmills are built what will it do to weather patterns? Will it affect the speed of the earths rotation even slightly? What will the long term ramifications be? Food for thought (or laughter if you're so inclined) ....

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yooperpete
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2007-08-29          145202


Ken:

You are correct but that would require vast amounts of windmills. Likewise, if we harvest lots and lots of wave energy the tides may be affected. If there were enough solar panels we could make the earth dark. We also shouldn't have every human and their car go to one spot on the earth simultaneously. But if every muslim went to Mecca at the same time and we had a Christian terrorist that would be good!

A little closer to reality is everyone going to battery powered vehicles in California and everyone charging them using the power grid which barely supports current (he-he) power consumption. ....

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hardwood
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2007-08-29          145204


I have no idea if I'm correct on this or not, but I'm sure the USA is either the largest or next to the top in energy consumption. Even in my somewhat remote part of the country compared to the east and west coasts the new home, business, entertainment business seems to be going at warp speed. It is hard to find a house with one vehicle, most have two or more plus a recreational unit,(boat, RV, Jet ski, etc.) all of these being energy consumers. We as a nation don't seem to want to conserve, (me included). I listen to the son I spoke of and wonder if all the stuff he is involved in is going to keep up with our wants for more energy. Frank. ....

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kleinchris
Join Date: Jun 2007
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2007-08-29          145208


I get get cornered and bombarded with ecofriendly green type folk every day in my line of work. (Camping and Outdoor Education.) People are sold on the idea that being environmentally friendly comes in a box- ironically enough. Environmental marketing is a technique that is used because it works, and works well. I chose not to buy into any of it because there is a simpler way to go about accomplishing the same mission: Self reliance. Owning a tractor promotes self reliance, a windmill, even more so. The more self reliant a person becomes, the more concerned he becomes with the resources directly available to him. The better those recources are managed, the more sucsessfull that person becomes. On the other hand, when a person relies on others for everything he depends on in life, then he comes to depend on more.
I don't need one more AOL article or another key note speeker giving me five tips on how to reduce energy consumtion in my home in order to save "Mother Earth". I want to cut the energy use in my home in order to cut my utility bill down to size... but, I don't think that getting advice like "keep your windows closed when using AC" is a good peice of advice... unless you're 6. - Just had to put in my two cents here.
Back to the subject at hand... I would love to have a windmill someday if it means my electric bill is half of what it is now. Anybody know about costs? ....

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hardwood
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2007-08-30          145215


Kleinchris; I get your point. yes owning a tractor or other equipment even just a chainsaw makes a statement that you want to take care of yourself. For the most part we have evolved into a society that could not fare for it's self if the purchased energy sources we are acustomed to became unavailable. We still raise a bit of a garden, know how to, but don't can food in mason jars anymore, I can milk a cow, shoot a rabbit, or butcher a hog or a beef if I had to.
I'm starting to see a stray privately owned windmill here and there but know nothing about their cost or payback period. The ones our son is involved with are high dollar units mostly purchased by energy Co-op's that are set up in groups of maybe fifty or more widnmills. He has told me but again I've forgotten the cost per unit, there must be a reasonable period of cost recovery or the money just wouldn't be going into them. Frank. ....

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Art White
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2007-08-30          145223


Frank, there are other reasons for them. I understand that they get DEC credits to offset polution in other areas. ....

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cutter
Join Date: Feb 2000
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2007-08-30          145237


I am on an adhoc committee to write the local ordinance for windmills. Much of the problem around the state is a result of companies building the mills and not compensating the communities for the intrusion. Locally, we are not going to let that occur.

We are working with Tom Gulisano's company, which will cut the municipality into the game to reduce either electric rates or property taxes or both.

Personally, I love the idea of the on-site mills for rural residential use. The issue now is with the environmental wackos that are protesting the death of the birds that fly into them. I truly believe these people are total fruitcake/socialists.




....

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hardwood
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2007-08-30          145239


Cutter; I'm hoping not to show mu ignorance here but, I've heard the term "adhoc" a million times. What in the world does it mean? Frank. ....

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candoarms
Join Date: Mar 2007
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2007-08-30          145240


Frank,

Ad hoc, or ad-hoc.......

(Webster may not agree with my definition.)

Informal, impromptu, or for a "one time" purpose.

When speaking in construction terms.......Often slapped together from scrap materials, to serve a specific purpose, then destroyed. "I constructed an ad-hoc brace to support to the concrete chute."

In general terms, the word(s) "ad hoc" simply means that the project or the committee (in this case) was slapped together for a special purpose, usually in response to some emergency or disaster --- where acting quickly takes priority over holding elections, or sorting through resumes to find qualified people.

Hope that helps.

Joel ....

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ihookem
Join Date: Jul 2006
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2007-09-16          145799


Cut my taxes or light bill in half and you can put one in my back yard, well maybe not that close but we have to do something about our energy supply. There are eighty eight of them going up about 15 mils north of me. Every time I go past the two we have had for ten years I see it as at least a small middle finger pointing at opec. we can cut oil and gas with windmills and they don't pollute at all. It will lower demand for natural gas cause power plants are leaning towards natural gas and away from coal for pollution reasons. In time we will be making real clean syntheic diesel fuel with coal and it is not more expensive with coal if crude stays above 60 bucks. We have to get tough with these idiots that cutter is talking about cause it will mostly kill geese and there are too many anyways. They don't want wind power, nuclear, coal or natural gas. Problem is there ain't nothin else. They use just as much electricity as anyone.Cut their power off and they will be the first to scream to high heaven. Wind power all the way, depressed states hit hard will benefit. The midwest plains is nothing short of a wind storm some days. Wind mills are expensive but when the windmill is payed off the power is less than anyhting, with no pollution! One windmill powers 3,000 people by us and they are small compared to the new ones going up! ....

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cutter
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2007-09-16          145801


You guys explained it perfectly. ....

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candoarms
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2007-09-17          145804


Ihookem,

These large wind generators are very, very expensive.

On a recent radio show, here in North Dakota, they had on several guests who specialize in this area of energy production.

The original cost to build a large wind turbine is in the millions of dollars. It will take nearly 10 years of constant electrical generation to pay for the cost of the purchase. The generator, itself, which sits at the top of the tower, has a life expectancy of 20 years. the cost to replace the worn out generator is about 1 million dollars.

The return on the investment is less than 10 percent. They are being constructed by big corporations only for the tax breaks, which tax breaks will disappear once Congress decides that they are losing too much revenue. In the short run, the tax breaks are very profitable.

Joel ....

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Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999
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2007-09-17          145810


There are many factors that don't usually get factored into the calculations of what something costs.

The advocates (highly paid professional talking heads usually) of choices like coal or gas fired steam plants, or nuclear power, will often quote the fact that the "per KW" cost of a windmill is higher than 'their' method.

The big thing they don't like to talk about though is the cost of getting the power to the consumers. The cost to construct a transmission corridor is astronomical these days.

To complicate things further, in this day & age the NIMBY (Not In My Back Yard) mentality is very prevalent.

All this together means that IF nukes or other generating plants are built, they must be located a long way from the consumers, and a VERY spendy transmission line built to get the power to those who need it.

With wind power the concept is to locate the rather innocuous wind mills near the demand and avoid the costs of transportation.

Wind power also offers a level scalability that is not possible with a nuke or most other options.

I'm not sure where the 20 year life expectancy comes from for a wind turbine, there was a show on the History Channel the other day on high performance lubricants, in it they were talking about windmills. The information they offered, and that I've read & heard elsewhere, was that with proper maintenance these things have a nearly infinite life span.

Best of luck. ....

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hardwood
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2007-09-17          145815


Murf, you bring up a real important point that I hadn't thought of on the power line issue. I've been to a big hydro electric dam and drive past a nuke plant once and a while that is about 15 miles as the crow flies from us. Just to get those big lines over the horizon would be mega millions. I quizzed the son I speak of who is into the windmill thing about the lifespan of them. The basis of his job is to represent a mojor oil company as the service advisor to the power company that owns the windmills. His company has the contract to supervise, supply and monitor all lubrication aspects of those things. Yes they cost millions, so service and maintenence is very high priority. For example they pull an oil sample from the gearcases every month and have it analysed at their lab to check for any impuritys, traces of bearing metal, etc, etc. They change the filters, replace any additives that may be depleted and in 99% of even the oldest units the oil has never been changed, only monitored. According to their monitoring records on the oldest units the lifetime of the generators and gearboxes is almost infinite. I would have to wonder why anyone would back away from a 10% return, (acording to a recent poster) on a commodity that has no storage costs, has no input costs, can't be shut down by strikes, or labor shortages, can't be hoarded or returned for a refund, and has a guranteded endless market. I'll ignore the NYMBY thing, bring on the endless free energy source. Frank. ....

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candoarms
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2007-09-17          145816


Hardwood,

As you mentioned, most of these things are owned by oil companies and other large corporations.

Why? Well, mainly for the tax breaks. The tax breaks on renewable energy sources are extremely profitable. Neither you nor I owe enough money in taxes to make such an investment profitable to us.

There is an estimated 10% return on the wind will over a period of its life-expectancy. However, with inflation at about 4% per year, these profits quickly begin to disappear.

The real profit in these things comes in the form of tax breaks, which will also disappear in time. For the time being, however, Congress is being very generous.

Oil companies, who make billions of dollars per year at the current price of oil, are now able to keep millions upon millions of tax dollars that would otherwise end up in D.C., by investing a small portion of this money into renewable energy sources.

Believe me, those oil companies don't hire thousands of accountants and lawyers just to provide them with jobs.
They've got this all figured out. And when the tax incentives come to an end, so will the windmills.

Joel ....

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candoarms
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2007-09-18          145820


Dear friends,

I'd like to post some information here for anyone who may be interested.

This comes from the American Wind Energy Association, or the AWEA.

Included here is a study done on the costs of producing wind energy, both with and without the Federal Energy Tax incentitives and Production Tax Cuts.

When removing the federal tax incentives and production tax cuts, the price of producing wind energy nearly doubles. (40% more per kWh)

The most glaring issue here is the Renewable Energy Production Incentive. (REPI)

Corporations who produce electrical power do not qualify for tax cuts.....since they currently pay none. Under the Renewable Energy Legislation, these companies would actually receive a payment from the federal government, which falls under the REPI program.

The REPI program makes the production of electricty from wind energy very profitable, by cutting the cost to the producer by nealy 1/2. Of course, such federal spending programs are never permanent, which places these financing packages at very high risk.

See the link below.

Joel

....


Link:   AWEA -- Wind Energy Production Costs

 
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hardwood
Join Date: Dec 2002
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2007-09-18          145822


Joel; First off please point out to me any statment I made on this thread that the windmills are owned by big oil companies. Second, the website you refer to has a first line that states that the cost to produce wind enegy has dropped by more thn 80% in the past 20 years, surely you find some fault in that too. Third, you must live a miserable life of never stop worring about someone else making more money than you do. that is the drift I get from all your writings. Fourth, My Dad always said, "Never waste your time arguing with someone for who's opinion you have no respect" I think you get my point. Frank. ....

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candoarms
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2007-09-18          145823


Hardwood,

I was only trying to point out the reason why so many big oil and utility companies are building these wind mills.

It's a profitable business, but only because of the huge tax incentives being offered at this time.

Big corporations can finance the building of these wind mills, because of the low interest rates on their loans. No other individual or company can get such low rates on the loans.

On top of the low interest rate loans, these companies also receive tax incentives, or federal payments, for building them......which cuts the production cost by about half.

It's all there for you to read at your own convenience.

Joel ....

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Murf
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2007-09-18          145825


Joel, if you read other sites the big picture becomes clearer.

It's been proven by actual hard cost surveys of existing electricity generating facilities that it cost about the same amount of money per Kw of capacity to put a nuke or a windmill online and making power.

The big difference is in size and scalability.

You can't economically make anything but a BIG nuke, and the ongoing costs are far higher with a nuke than a windmill, there's no waste to deal with, and when it needs VERY little staffing, whether it's making electricity or not, try that with a nuke.

It doesn't matter who builds them, runs them, or gets the financing for them, the bottom line is the nation needs more electricity at a lower cost, in both dollars and environmental damage, wind does that.

Best of luck. ....

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pelletfarmer
Join Date: Aug 2007
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2007-09-18          145828


"It doesn't matter who builds them, runs them, or gets the financing for them, the bottom line is the nation needs more electricity at a lower cost, in both dollars and environmental damage, wind does that."

That's a great point but it doesn't touch Joel's message of how badly the markets get screwed up with Govco interference.

Mankind forever has tended toward more information and thus more efficiency; no doubt wind power will prove to be an example of that, as you say. It's still the case that any coercive interference--which is what any governmental interference is--will hinder the efficient manifestation of the technology. This is a simple fact, owing to the nature of human activity.

There is a reason the free markets of the United States worked, back when we had them.

The intents don't really matter. Never mind that considerable skepticism is due regarding the modern-day intents of governmental action anyway! jk
....

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kwschumm
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2007-09-18          145829


I agree that governmental interference in the markets is generally detrimental. However, with volume the unit price goes down. If tax breaks can jump start wind energy production, and if the volume becomes large enough that the per-unit price comes down to where it makes sense on a much smaller scale, then maybe it will be a good thing in the long run. It would be wonderful if every home had solar panels or wind turbines for self-sufficiency and to feed any excess back into the grid. The only way that will happen is if the per-unit price comes down, and that will only happen with volume. ....

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mobilus
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2007-09-18          145830


Murf, you're on target with the "nearly infinite lifespan" comment. With proper maintenance and technology upgrades, some of our aircraft and some ground equipment types in the USAF inventory are in their fifth decade and still performing adequately (if not better). This could be very true of windmills, as they could have phenomenal lifespans.

As with most mechanical devices, operator error and lack of proper maintenance is attributed with failures. ....

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pelletfarmer
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2007-09-18          145837


"However, with inflation at about 4% per year..."

Heh. That was back in the old days, I'm afraid.

I like how the Fed intends to "bolster the economy." Neat trick. I trust everyone here understands that only production can bolster an economy. The Fed can only change how it's denominated.

And change it will...maybe we won't need to mint nickels and dimes anymore!

I can already hear the Chinese (and everyone else across the seas) throwing our bonds back at us. "Here, you want 'em? You got 'em!"

Buying the Brooklyn Bridge wouldn't be half as stupid as falling for this old charade of making money cheaper. But somehow so many "experts" manage to fall for it. Maybe they have something to gain, hmm?

It's hard to believe anything as idiotic as devaluing our currency, could possibly be unintentional. That's the scary part IMO, and why Joe Doe better wake up.

As far as windmills in volume, economies of scale are physical systems which add value to the process, making the end product more affordable. Yes, that's reflected in the price of something (when dealing with at least a semi-rigid currency anyway), but price is not value. The fact that you can throw dollars at something to make it (appear!) cheaper, doesn't change its value to consumers, nor does it change whatever benefits economies of scale bring to the job. Those are strictly mind-driven physical acts which operate most efficiently when they're allowed to operate most efficiently, without the restraints or artificial subsidies of nutcase politicos trying to fatten their wallets and retirements.

It's amazing how consistently a regular farmer can get screwed. Last year at this time, there were dreams of 4.50-5.00/bu corn, with many farmers finally anticipating getting some value for their work...and look where it is instead. Now it'll go toward five bucks easy enough, but you won't be able to buy a gallon of milk with that bushel. And see just how more "affordable" windmills become. Sure they'll become cheaper...how could they not, with both ongoing experience and economies of scale? But like everything else, they'll become further and further away from regular people who truly stand to benefit from their usage and work out the details of scalability that Murf was talking about. Between the regs and the paperwork, it'll be out of reach for Joe Doe...so he'll just pay a little more to his local monopolized utility and /they'll/ get the benefits of those economies of scale, not to mention all the ongoing tax benefits.

But hey, at least Govco's working on taxing internet connections, so that should get better soon too!

Okay, that's /my/ rant for today. I better jump on that tractor and get some real work done. jk ....

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kthompson
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2007-09-18          145839


Hardwood, clap, clap, clap.


Do not want to rain on anyone's parade it has sort of been pointed out here already, sometimes it must be a BIG BAD COOPERATIONS THAT DOES it for it to work. The task demands their resources and deep pockets. Come to think of it, why don't you buy tractor made by the smallest company out there since the big companies are all so evil and get all kinds of government kick backs which no deserving person or small company can ever get. May I get nosey and ask, do you buy Dole or Green Giant food or do you only buy from the local farmer? Had a McDonalds or Burger King meal or any other chain? How about your computer chip, or software. Tell me about the pickup you drive, don't tell me you bought a Chevy, Ford, Dodge or Toyota. Just about what I thought.

While you are at it don't forget the bidding preference given to minority owned companies (hey these are mostly small businesses, guess the none minority owned small business are also evil).

I want to state I make my living working with small business. The very small business, not those that employee 100 or 75 employees, rather for the most part 4 or 12 or such. I believe I know small business very well. Many buy and sell to LARGE businesses.

Well there is my rant. God Bless the large companies who do what the small ones are not able to afford to do. God Bless the honest and ethical businesses of all sizes. kt

I must add, it has dawned on me there just may be a politician or two here or want to be for there sure is a lot of hot air at times! oh well, helps the windmills to turn.
....

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pelletfarmer
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 14 Central Michigan
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2007-09-18          145843


"Well there is my rant. God Bless the large companies who do what the small ones are not able to afford to do. God Bless the honest and ethical businesses of all sizes. kt"

Good words. I hope I didn't give the impression that I'm against large companies or something. Larger the better, I say, as long as they got there ethically and honestly like you say. I'm from the Motor City; I can understand the benefits of economies of scale and mammoth businesses.

Besides, what would I want for my small business, except that it become as large as possible? I'm with Reverend Ike on this point---the best thing I can do for the poor is not become one of 'em!

I'm against /coercive/ business, commonly called "the rackets" or something like that. And unfortunately, nobody's yet devised a government that can operate with any tool except coercion. That's all...it's the rackets which have stopped a million Joe Does from having windmills and developing them some time ago. It's the rackets which stop Joe Doe from everything he's regulated out of doing, or taxed to subsidize somebody else doing it. The rackets are wrong, and no amount of do-gooder drivel can change that. That's all I'm saying, nothing more and nothing less.

Hope that clarifies my POV somewhat, and makes it less offensive for you. jk ....

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kthompson
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2007-09-19          145867


I like the line about the line about how to help the poor.

It bugs me that some think that big is always evil. Some small business are very evil as are some very big ones but the really bigs one are not as often all evil as some want them to be, even the worst ones seldom are ALL EVIL. kt ....

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pelletfarmer
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2007-09-19          145879


"Some small business are very evil as are some very big ones but the really bigs one are not as often all evil as some want them to be,"

Great point. It's all about individuals. Good individuals make good organizations; lousy ones make lousy ones. The big secret is that almost everyone is good, while we're taught to believe that almost everyone is lousy.

The problem arises when decade after decade, the good get punished while the lousy get rewarded. Then there becomes a strong dis-value in being good. Subsidize crackheads and you'll have more of them. Punish success and you'll have less of it. Glorify poverty and you'll have more of it. And on and on...this ain't rocket science.


"even the worst ones seldom are ALL EVIL. kt"

Another good point. After all, they had to bring some value to some rational people, right?. To me, that's the opposite of evil in a social context.

But villify rationality and demonize personal values, and soon you get odd combinations of sensible producers and worthless scumbags. Eventually, the scumbags win out. This is the nature of a mixed economy like ours, and why we're currently in a heap of trouble. jk ....

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kthompson
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2007-09-19          145883


pelletfarmer, what kind of crop is "pellets"? Don't know much about raising rabbits but them and goats have pellets. kt ....

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yooperpete
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2007-09-19          145885


I assumed woodpellets. My business is located in the Saginaw area and my daughter graduated from Central Michigan University in Mt. Pleasant. I assume pelletfarmer is located close by. So, Howdy neighbor. ....

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pelletfarmer
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2007-09-19          145886


Hey neighbor, though your handle threw me off. You're a flatlander, not a yooper!

You're both close. I've been interested in wood pellets and furnace corn since moving near West Branch a couple years ago. The only crop on my land so far, are the trees out back, hence the name. I just gotta figure out how to harvest 'em!

OTOH we've got more than a bit of manure and bedding that we're composting, so kt isn't far off either. I just didn't think "manurefarmer" would play real well, though probably some here think it'd be about right. jk (Jim Klein)


Edited by Murf to make 'PG' rated. ;) ....

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Murf
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2007-09-19          145888


We looked at doing pellets too, there's some new (cheaper) small scale equipment out there to turn sawdust into pellets.

Problem is still labour, on a small scale the labour costs make the pellets more expensive to produce than you can buy them from the 'big boys' for.

There's a guy near me here who has a novel slant on things though, he made a set of forms himself that produce blocks of compressed sawdust about the size of a bar of soap. He burns these blocks in a wood-burning furnace. Still, if you factor in his time to produce the equipment, and the blocks themselves, he's probably really only reducing his cost of disposing of the sawdust itself.

A good multi-fuel stove will burn wood chips or sawdust directly, so why bother even trying to make pellets for your own use?

Best of luck. ....

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mobilus
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2007-09-19          145889


Murf,

I sometimes gather up sawdust and bark droppings from the cutting area and put it in paper grocery sacks. Simply stuff one in the firebox and light it...no mess. It's a good way to get rid of it and start fires too.

....

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pelletfarmer
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2007-09-19          145890


All true points, Murf. That's why I'm on the computer instead of selling pellets!

Still, there's a market for pellets, and corn as pellet fuel ain't quite dead yet. And then, it turns out that softwood pellets for bedding is pretty convenient, far more than shavings at similar cost. There are a lot of horse owners who don't care too much about cost anyway; convenience is a high value to them.

Meanwhile I've got trees that are going down by the day because nobody's building anything, while I gotta buy heat pellets that are going up by the day because nobody's building anything. Story of my life. jk ....

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kthompson
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2007-09-19          145891


Guess it still relates to wind mills along the thought of alternate fuels but, would not blowing saw dust into a fire create a very hot heat? Not sure how hard or costly that would be compared to making sawdust into blocks or pellets. kt

....

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Murf
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2007-09-20          145918


Kenneth, that's precisely how most 'modern' burners work, though in fact very few of them have a blower, they use the heat of the air rising up the chimney to create enough vacuum to make a real draft and then direct it straight into the base of the fire.

Jim, just get a good multi-fuel stove, like the Sedore, and just burn the wood as chips. My neighbour cuts a tree down in the morning, chips it, and burns it that night, no problem.

Likewise, any decent multi-fuel stove will burn corn, even the cobs!!

Best of luck. ....

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Hettric
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2007-09-22          145970


Murf
How do the multi fuel stoves handle loose sawdust? Is there a hopper? sounds very messy to handle/load, and quite possably a fire hazard. I have a woodworking shop and would love to figure out how to burn the loose dry sawdust/fine chips I generate along with scraps.
Thanks ....

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Lwayne
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2007-09-22          145972


Murf: NIMBY is a prevalent frame of mind for certain. But with the poor farm econmy a lot of farmers are looking for outside sources of income. Many of them would like to receive a rent check regularly for something like that just sitting in their field or pasture. My neighbor retired from an electric utility and tells me the real problem with them up to now is they have to over-saturate in the building phase to accomodate for the unstable nature of wind to produce a reliable amount of energy. ....

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kleinchris
Join Date: Jun 2007
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2007-09-22          145973


About 15 years ago I lived in South Park, Colorad. There were quite a few homes way out on the fringes of the basin which had individual windmills which I imagine would power somekind of battery system which could be tranformed into 110 and 220. Anybody here have any kind of experience with a small system like this?
Sidenote: South Park is a windy place- roads and snow fences go hand in hand. Also, parts of this basin were 30 plus miles away any kind of town- and being 15 years ago, cell phones were not an option- or if they were, you would not get a signal in most of the area. Point being, you could lose power out there for days with out anybody knowing about it. ....

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Murf
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2007-09-25          146056


Hettric, for loose material there is a hopper that is set down into the fire box, but the key to the Seodre stove is that the fire burns horizontally (to a point), not vertically.

The draft is arranged in such a way as to make the fire burn cross-wise, and the smoke to go to the back and up, this means the material directly above the fire, in a V-shaped hopper, is exposed to the heat and drying air flow of the fire for a period just before it hits the fire itself. This dries the material so fast that you can put damp sawdust or green wood directly into the fire.

Depending on how much sawdust you have to deal with, you may want to consider making either fire starters, or fuel blocks from the sawdust.

For fire starters all you need is a package of small paper cups and some paraffin wax. Saturate the sawdust in the paraffin in an old pot, wring it out pretty good wearing a rubber glove and pack it into the paper cups. To start a fire you put one cup in the pile of wood and light it like a candle.

For fuel blocks you do the same thing, but make the blocks bigger, a hardwood mould the size of a brick works well, and use far less paraffin, just barely enough to stick it together, use a small jack in a press or a couple of good clamps to hold it till it hardens.

Best of luck. ....

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yooperpete
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2007-09-25          146061


Sorry about drifting away from the original topic. The market for corn as a heating source has slowed substantially and pellets have emerged as the new trend. Corn prices have risen due to ethanol production and many like myself have found that corn as a heating source really sucked. It was dirty, required lots of cleanup and was not consistent. Pellets on the otherhand burn hotter and cleaner. Several pellet producing plants have been put on line here in Michigan over the past year and pellet prices are dropping. When the craze started for corn burning stoves, a local company started up and called itself the "Kernel Burner". They were the largest seller of corn stoves in the area. Now about 4 years later, they are selling primarly pellet stoves. ....

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kleinchris
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2012-08-24          184726


Its been about five/six years since this post was started. Technology has imporoved, and prices have come down... Im wondering if anybody has any experience with something like this package sold at Northern Tools: ....


Link:   Northen Tool Wind Turbine

 
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hardwood
Join Date: Dec 2002
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2012-08-31          184769



Kleinchris;

I don't have any exprience with any wind turbines. My first thoughts about the Northern tool unit are that it seems a bit complicated to me by dealing with multiple voltages that I assume will change automacly. Does it mean your whole house/all needs, would have to be converted to 12 volt plus have a transformer to reduce line power to 12 volt too?
I wouldn't tackle this without talking to at least a couple other people who have bought this unit.

Frank. ....

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cutter
Join Date: Feb 2000
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2012-08-31          184774


Next week begins my solar project with the installation of an array of panels to produce 7.3 KW.

I researched and have been involved with windmills for some time and the reality is you need to be very young and have plenty of funding from big brother to make those anywhere near a payoff prior to kicking the bucket as it pertains to a residential generator.

As for the large commercial generators, again, taxpayers fund those things one way or another otherwise we would not be many of them either. ....

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