Go BottomAntifreeze in Heating Pipes
 | ncrunch32
Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 762 Kingston, NY 
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2006-12-31 138406
My Mother's house has had the same antifreeze in the closed system heating pipes since my folks built it around 1980. The antifreeze was put in because the pipes ran through the garage where there was a potential for freezing. A plumber is now telling my sister that the antifreeze should be replaced and a new anti-flowback valve installed. He tested the antifreeze and told her it has become acidic. He verbally told my sister this could be done for about $1200 (would take 4 hours) although he did not put the price in writing. This sounds way too high a price to me. Does antifreeze like this ever go bad?
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 | kwschumm
Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 5764 NW Oregon 
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2006-12-31 138407
If automotive experience is applicable it seems likely that the antifreeze may lose it's anti-corrosion properties and allow rust to flourish. After years of circulation it's pH has almost certainly changed but that doesn't mean it's out of an acceptable range. It might be easy to get some pH strips or a pH test kit and test but you'd need to know what it should be. Some google research might offer recommendations and it would probably be wise to call around to get other opinions and estimates before committing. $1200 seems like a lot for a job like that, but what do I know? ....
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 | earthwrks
Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 3853 Home Office in Flat Rock, Michigan
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2006-12-31 138409
NC: From the little Googling I did on this, NOT having a backflow preventor is a very serious thing to prevent contaminating the water source. From what I read, if the the supply pressure drops by any amount compared to the heating system's, a backflow condition will arise which effectively siphons out the system contents into the supply (well or city water) and contaminating it. Not good! The info I read put this situation on par with leaving a garden hose connected to a hose bib lying in a cesspool. A drop in pressure will siphon cesspool water back into the system. Therefore a vacuum breaker would be needed to prevent such. (A vacuum breaker will not suffice on the heating system).
So IMHO if the plumber did find the pH was low it could be that the system was diluted from backflowing over the years, not just old and degraded.
As far as what the plumber will do for the $1200...that seems like one of those situations where he opens a valve, walks away for 3 and half hours (and makes money too somewhere else) then takes a half hour to install the valve. But I'm jis' sayin' I don't think this will completely empty the system.
I'd ask him if he going to do the above, or is he going to power purge the system using something other (pump?) than the water supply to fill it.
This might be something you can do yourself. ....
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| ncrunch32
Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 762 Kingston, NY
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2006-12-31 138410
Thanks Ken and EW for the comments. Since the garage the pipes went through is now a finished room, maybe the best thing to do is just purge the antifreeze and have water in the pipes. There is not an immediate rush to do this so we have some time to think. ....
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 | hardwood
Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 3583 iowa
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2006-12-31 138411
I don't know anything about heating system antifreeze. I'm just wondering is the old stuff toxic? If so does the plumber haul it away and properly dispose of it as part of the 1200.00 service? Frank. ....
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| earthwrks
Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 3853 Home Office in Flat Rock, Michigan
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2006-12-31 138412
I nfogot to mention what Frank did about disposal of the bad stuff. You could be opening Pandora's Box if you let too many know about what you have as far as it could be considered hazardous waste and the cost to dispose of it could be expensive. The plumber may tell you he is going to get "dispose" of it but I have to wonder just how: down the drain or is it going into barrels to be refined or recycled like automotive places do (or is it going back to his house and he dumps it on the ground and charges you "disposal fee"?).
To me this is like letting the government know you have plutonium in your basement and you'd like to know how if you can just flush it down the toilet. DOH! ....
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| ncrunch32
Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 762 Kingston, NY
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2006-12-31 138413
Good points Hardwood and EW. I imagine there is only a few gallons of this toxic waste. I have previously dealt with asbestos removal so I understand some of the problems with this type of stuff. I may just call up my Italian family connections and get their advice ;) ....
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| earthwrks
Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 3853 Home Office in Flat Rock, Michigan
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2007-01-01 138414
I worked in the asbestos field too back in '88 as an inspector and industrial hygienist when the Feds (EPA) were really clamping down on the stuff when it came to removal and management. I hear it has really been relaxed too nowadays for homeowners anyway. As far as disposal of the green stuff, I'd look for a auto service station who recycles it. ....
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 | Peters
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 3034 Northern AL
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2007-01-01 138418
Typically they used ethanol as the antifreeze in the old heating systems. That is why they were not particularly concerned about the mixing with the household water. Is there anyway to know what they used? Is the old company still around? If it is ethanol ..... you see where I am going....
It is good to place the backflow preventor on the line even if there is not a antifreeze in it. The line becomes stagnet and then you can have bacteria. Normally you will use a descaler and a anticorrosion agent in the line even if it has no antifreeze. ....
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| HuckMeat
Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 121 Colorado 
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2007-01-01 138420
If I read correctly, that prices includes installing a new backflow preventer, implying that there is already one on it? I would expect that it would.
These systems are typically maxed out pressure at around 15-25 psi. It's unlikely that backflow would occur, but having a working preventer is mandatory, and code in most places.
My system (installed 2 years ago) has the non-toxic "RV" type antifreeze installed in it. Automotive antifreeze will screw up most boilers, plus it's toxic. It's pretty dilute - In 7200 sf of heated area(house + garage, with the antifreeze in it because I heat the garage too), I think there is about 10 gallons total of the antifreeze, of course mixed with a whole bunch of water.
The price seems high. I'd expect to see how much was for the backflow valve and how much for antifreeze, but shop around. Is this an infloor system, or baseboard radiators? www.radiantdirect.com might have some manuals on flushing if you were inclined to DIY, but since you don't know what the old stuff is, it's probably better to hire it out. ....
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| ncrunch32
Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 762 Kingston, NY
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2007-01-01 138421
Huck, this is a baseboard system and backflow preventer is already on it, but apparently needs to be replaced. I will check this week with the person who installed the system. He helped my folks get set up in their new home back then but the distance was too far for him to continue to service the system. ....
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| ncrunch32
Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 762 Kingston, NY
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2007-01-12 138766
I finally got in touch with the oil company on this one. New York state passed a law in 2001 that requires any home heating system with antifreeze to have an RPZ installed (backflow preventer with vacuum break). The cost of the RPZ is $750. Replacement of the antifreeze was done in my mother's heating pipes in 1999 for $250. The oil company (which also services the furnace) thinks the antifreeze should be replaced again (they say it has become acidic) which will trigger the requirement to install the RPZ. In addition to the valve installation there are the labor costs, antifreeze costs, etc. Of course there will also be an annual inspection fee of $125 they will also charge my mother.
The alternative is to flush the antifreeze out and replace with water since the garage area has now been converted to a heated room. The only concern is that the pipes are behind the sheetrock wall and next to the concrete outside wall. I think we might be willing to take the risk since things have been warmer lately. ....
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| Justus
Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 179 Justus, Pa.
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2007-01-15 138834
NC, wouldn't it be easier and cheaper to just have that outside wall well insulated, perhaps by the method of having holes drilled (Either from outside or inside)and then having expanding insulation forced in? Put that $1200 toward the insulation and forget about the antifreeze and the $125 yearly cost for inspection. Steve ....
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 | kthompson
Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 5275 South Carolina
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2007-01-16 138854
NC, if you don't install antifreeze, what would happen if the house were not heated for a few days of normal winter weather? ....
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 | DennisCTB
Join Date: Nov 1998 Posts: 2709 NorthWest NJ
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2007-01-16 138858
Huckmeat,
I have RV anti freeze that I use for my pressure washer when I store it. You said the one you have is non toxic. The one I have says it is toxic, just a little less toxic then automotive Antifreeze. It only takes a tablespoon of regular antifreeze to kill a dog, and dogs seek it out as it is sweet to them. Could you check the stuff you have and let me know the brand as I am always concerned my dog will get some of this stuff by accident.
Dennis ....
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 | Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999 Posts: 7249 Toronto Area, Ontario, Canada
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2007-01-17 138889
One simple alternative to using toxic anti-freeze is to just replace it with something kids and animals aren't likely to mess with, no less toxic, just less tempting.
Probably the simplest is to use a methyl hydrate and water solution. If you can't be bothered to find it in the hardware store, just use windshield washer fluid, that's all it really is anyways.
It isn't as tempting since it doesn't have that 'sweet' smell or taste to it. It also isn't as bad on the environment when it gets flushed out in the spring.
If you look around you can usually find it in gallon jugs for not much money, especially in big truck supply places, it's used as anti-freeze in air brake systems to stop condensation from freezing them up in cold weather.
Best of luck. ....
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| ncrunch32
Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 762 Kingston, NY
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2007-01-25 139170
KT, I figure for $125 a year for an annual inspection on one hand, and freezing risk on the other - I am willing to take the risk. No more risk than any house has of freezing pipes when the power goes out. I have seen the damage that freezing pipes can do with a place we once rented out. The tenant had the utilities and stopped heating the place. ....
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| kthompson
Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 5275 South Carolina
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2007-01-26 139184
ncrunch,
Just wondering here. I was looking at electric space heaters yesterday. They have them that look like radiators that are OIL filled. Have no ide about the type of oil used or if there is an oil that would be suitable or legal for your system. But, it would seem to solve the need to replace it, dogs drinking it, rusting the system or ph changing. But if worried about it being drunk, use Mineral Oil. ;-) That will straighten them out. ....
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