Go BottomBack hoe on a sub-compact
 | tamanaco
Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 41 wellington, oh 
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2003-12-26 72303
I'm new to all this. I have a BX 1800 Kubota and want to build a 3 pt back hoe. I've read in the forum that the tractor can't handle a back hoe. I'd like to get a some more feedback on this.
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 | Art White
Join Date: Jan 2000 Posts: 6898 Waterville New York 
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2003-12-26 72314
Your chassis is the same as on the BX2200 and is almost the same as on the BX22-23 but not the same due to the factory built and mounted subframe that comes from Kubota. You can build and I believe some manufacturer will have one built in a short time. My only thought is anything else that could be added on in another way will be to the rear so far that at best it's working capacity would be extremely low from a leverage stand point. ....
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| wallac
Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 70 Pennsylvannia
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2003-12-28 72461
I not sure I would put a 3PT. on a sub compact, I am not up on KUBOTAS but I've seen to many tractors stressed because of a 3 pt. ....
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| TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley
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2003-12-29 72544
This is pretty abstract stuff but there's really no simple answer. The simplest way is to see what a manufacturer recommends. If they don't recommend any hoe then it becomes a customer relations issue for them. A 3ph on this or any tractor can tolerate some level of stress and should be capable of tolerating some hoe. The question is how much and the answer should be an engineering assessment.
A 3ph mounted hoe places a variety of stresses on a tractor chassis and traditional tractor design is not the best for these types of stresses. Digging force compresses the top-link and tries to jackknife the tractor at the cases. It's the main source of problems for a 3ph hoe and that stress can be limited by the length of hoe arms and the relief valve pressure.
There are various other stresses and load shocks that have to be managed within a tractor's capacity. Taken together the stresses may result in a hoe that isn't very useful. In addition, even if the chassis is strong, a hoe of any power can move a light tractor around more than it digs. Digging by hand can simply be faster. ....
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| tamanaco
Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 41 wellington, oh
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2003-12-29 72569
Art, thanks for the info. Got any idea who would be manufacturing the sub-frame? ....
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| tamanaco
Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 41 wellington, oh
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2003-12-29 72570
wallac, can you discribe the stress you've seen on the tractors?
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| tamanaco
Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 41 wellington, oh
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2003-12-29 72572
TomG, Good answer! I'm looking at a small bucket for this unit, 6 to 10 inch. I'll will be doing, what I would consider as light duty work. Cleaning small drainage ditches, 2-3ft wide. Digging for drainage tile about 1-3 ft deep. Last, some stump digging, this may be the most abusive use of the BH? ....
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| wallac
Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 70 Pennsylvannia
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2003-12-29 72584
Top link bracket pulled for rear end housing - Bell housing cracked. Stump pulling is in the top ranks of abuse, that you can put on a machine (in my opinion) Think about this when you hook on something and start pulling what is it trying to do? It's trying to lift the machine by pulling on the top link, Now when you use a subframe you are now lifting the machine from the bottom in which there is no pulling in one direct spot! I know for sure KIOTI and MAHINDRA will not warranty the tractor if they know there is a 3 pt. hoe (and that is obvious when you see a machine) ....
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| TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley
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2003-12-30 72663
Nobody here should make a recommendation for using a hoe on the tractor. There are risks of serious damage to the tractor, which is true for using any equipment. It'd be good to be informed of the risks and then decide to be a risk taker or not.
Having said that, I've used a 3ph hoe for occasional light-duty work for 5 years without problems. I'll describe some limitations of my hoe below. I think any hoe that has minimal risks to your tractor would be more limited.
It is a Kelley B600 on a Ford 1710. The hoe is a not particularly strong 6' hoe and the tractor weights 3,000 lbs. with loader. I think the Kelley mount distributes some of the load to the drawbar. The soil here is sandy. I don't try to move large rocks in trenches or break sizable tree roots with it. I didn't use it at all last year, but it's there should need arise. My tractor is much heavier than a sub-compact and I wouldn't run my hoe on a smaller tractor. By the same token, a smaller hoe wouldn't do some of jobs I have to do very well.
Although the depth of the hoe is 6' at a 2' bottom, the practical trenching depth is 4' - 5'. Even at 5' you end up spending most of the time moving the tractor. The reach isn't long enough for digging very wide excavations. The 12" bucket will stall the hydraulics if heavy cuts are taken in packed soil with the boom extended. The stalling is good since it limits stress to the tractor. ....
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 | earthwrks
Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 3853 Home Office in Flat Rock, Michigan
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2003-12-30 72696
My "blue" dealer strongly cautioned me about putting a backhoe on a compact (mine's 33hp). He said the bell housing bolts stretch/break especially when using the hoe itself to move forward/backward which happens more often than not. ....
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| TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley
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2003-12-31 72761
I'm not sure I'd recommend my hoe for my tractor either. I'm aware I'm doing some risk taking and I hope my discipline in operation is enough to keep me out of trouble.
I've heard of tractors broken in half from 3ph hoes. I've seen a picture of a broken chunk of cases around the top-link mount. As with all equipment use, there are always risks of breakage. Sub-frame hoes can damage tractors as well. I seem to recall that some of the BX chassises have reinforcement kits. I have the impression that they are straps along the bottom of the cases but I don't know if they are independent of Bota hoes for the tractors though. Something like that might help.
Having said that, stresses to the tractor can be reduced by operator technique. The main thing is to avoid digging, lifting or swinging with the boom and stick extended. However, having a small hoe and then not being able to use its full capabilities sort of defeats the idea of having it. A couple of reasonably strong backs and shovels may do the work faster and cheaper. Besides, few operators actually have the discipline to avoid stressing the tractor with a hoe that's actually too big ....
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 | Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999 Posts: 7249 Toronto Area, Ontario, Canada
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2003-12-31 72778
I think this subject comes back to the old adage, the problem is most often caused by a 'loose nut' behind the wheel.
MANY people use 3pth hoes, with and without sub-frames successfully for years with no problems, others break in minutes.
An older gent in my neck of the woods has an older B series 'Bota with FEL and B/H, he is in the headstone business and uses the machine to make the footers that support the stones, and to move the stones around. He also digs graves for a few of the smaller graveyards. His machine is just as tight as the day he bought it. BUT, he also goes about everything the slow & steady way. He even refers to his machine as his 'diesel Mexican' because he doesn't doing anything with it any faster than a human labourer could, it just doesn't get tired or show up hung-over.
As with everything else mechanical, how the operator cares (or doesn't care) for the equipment determines how well it works and lasts more than anything else.
Best of luck. ....
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 | DRankin
Join Date: Jan 2000 Posts: 5116 Northern Nevada
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2003-12-31 72781
I really liked running my BX22 hoe at low and slow speeds.
The owners manual for my new 4115/46 Backhoe says to run at full pto speed or risk overheating the hydraulic fluid.
What do you guys make of that? ....
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 | Chief
Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 4299 Southwest MiddleTennessee
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2003-12-31 72784
Mark, The only issues that come to my mind are that operating without sufficient rpm and the hyd. pump under load with the hoe could possibly exceed the output capacity of the pump. Doesn't seem very likely to me. The other possibility might be the circulation rate of the hyd. oil required through the trans. oil cooler to maintain the hyd oil below a max. temp. I think that unlikely to as long as you are using the hoe in a sensible manor. When I worked at the Deere dealer the way many of the mechanics would warm the oil up in the hydraulics would be to hold a valve in bypass until the oil warmed up. It would take a long long time for the oil the get hot this way too. (probably not the best thing in the world for the hyd. system) I would think that as long as you are operating the engine at an rpm that is at or near its torque peak (usually somewhere near 1800 rpm) you should be fine. I don't like to run the equipment full blast either unless it is absolutely required. ....
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| Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999 Posts: 7249 Toronto Area, Ontario, Canada
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2003-12-31 72791
Some systems don't produce much more than the required flow rates for a B/H, so running below that point means you are trying to do the work with less than the required power. Work means heat, more work means more heat.
I think the ole' Chief's idea of cooling efficiency has a lot to do with it also.
Best of luck. ....
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| TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley
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2004-01-01 72830
Hoes can have overheating problems--same as hydraulic motors. I've heard of hoes getting the hoses so hot that the they can't be handled. Heating problems sometimes result from using high capacity pto pumps with an undersized reservoirs. Unless there's an oil cooler, the main place heat is dissipated is while oil is sitting in the reservoir. A high volume of oil in relation to the pump flow means that heated exhaust oil sits in the reservoir longer before it's pumped again.
I'd say the manual's overheating idea is definitely true if the tractor has an oil cooler but the idea is less obvious if it doesn't. Systems have overall efficiencies and the same work should produce about the same heat and the ability of a system to dissipate it shouldn't be related to flow unless there's a cooler. One possibility is that a system's efficiency decreases at lower rpm's. More input would be needed to get the same work done and that would produce more heat. I don't know if the efficiency of a hydraulic system changes with pump rpm and I'd be interested in comments. ....
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| DRankin
Join Date: Jan 2000 Posts: 5116 Northern Nevada
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2004-01-01 72832
Tom: here is more info for your fertile mind to plow through. The current system (4115 HST)does have an oil cooler and is astonishingly quick and powerful at lower RPM's.
In fact I am having trouble learning to feather it at any RPM setting and I am constantly slamming it into the stops, especially on the boom swing.
The hoe is made to fit an HST or Gear 41xx. My old 4100 Gear had no provision for external oil cooling and in fact didn't even sport a spin-on hydraulic filter.
So tell me what signal an oil cooler sends to you in this scenario?
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| TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley
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2004-01-01 72839
Dang! My first post only had the second of two paragraphs. I corrected it. Don't imagine the missing part added much to your comment though. It was mostly for people who haven't heard of the relationship between pump flow and reservoir capacity. I think the rule of thumb is around 2.5 to 3 times reservoir capacity to pump flow and more for motors.
My curiosity is that I can see how cooling increases with flow through an oil cooler but I can't see it changing much if there's just a reservoir. I'd think that heat dissipation from a reservoir would be mostly dependent on the surface area and time. Flow through it shouldn't make much difference. From some perspective I'd think that work at lower rpm's would be spread over longer times so heat problems should be less if anything. That is, as long as the efficiency stays the same, which is what I don't know. I am interested though. Reduced efficiency would increase the amount of heat generated in getting a job done.
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| Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999 Posts: 7249 Toronto Area, Ontario, Canada
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2004-01-05 73092
Tom, don't forget that in the case of a CUT, the reservoir is also the transmission and rear-end. Since heat, like most else in nature, wants to be in balance with it's surroundings the tendancy is for the TX / Rear-end case to try to heat to the same temp as the TDH fluid is at, this in turn will off course be given off to the atmosphere turning the whole back half of the CUT into an oil cooler.
Best of luck. ....
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| TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley
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2004-01-05 73165
Murf: I understand the cases are a heat exchange surface. What I was trying to come to grips with is that idea that low flow from low rpm operation may over-heat the oil. What I'm doing is looking for an explanation rather than differing with the claim.
The way I was thinking is along the lines that it takes a given amount of work to do a task. Unless a system's efficiency changes a given amount of heat should be produced, and that should be fairly constant whether the work is done at high or low flows, although it would take place over a longer time at low flows.
The pump and all components have less than 100% efficient, heat is produced and returned to the reservoir in exhaust oil where it raises the temp of reservoir oil and some heat is dissipated through the cases. More heat would dissipate as the oil temp rises above the air temp and the oil temp should come to equilibrium depending on the workload.
Assuming that work rather than flow changes the heat load, what I can't figure is how greater flow would increase heat dissipation in the reservoir. Increased dissipation would seem to be a logical requirement if low flows may over-heat oil (unless efficiency decreases). It is true that increased flow may stir reservoir oil more to increase dissipation and that there'd be greater be a greater volume of 'low worked' oil when no control vales were operated. I also made a big assumption. Even so, I can't see it unless efficiency changes but that's likely just illustrates the limits of my physics education. ....
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| Art White
Join Date: Jan 2000 Posts: 6898 Waterville New York
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2004-01-12 73805
That is a Kubota unit to the best of my knowlwedge. ....
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| Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999 Posts: 7249 Toronto Area, Ontario, Canada
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2004-01-13 73866
Sorry Tom, I thought I was clearer than I was after re-reading my post.
My point was that since the TX/R. Axle case, as well as all the steel portions of the lines are basically oil coolers.
Since increased flow means more exposure to the cooling componenets, and a reduced heat load (per volumetric unit of oil) since the work load, and therefore the heat generated by same, is spread over a greater volume of oil, the temerature of the oil is going to be lower.
Sort of the oil version of 10 men doing a task instead of 2, each person does that much less work to accomplish the same thing, therefore they don't get as tired or hot doing it.
Clearer now?
Best of luck. ....
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| TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley
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2004-01-14 73942
Murf: Thanks for the reply. Your comment may have pointed toward an explanation. As usual I have to come up with my own way to explain things to myself and they usually are different than what works for other people.
True that the return oil would be cooler if you send more gallons after the same work, but there are more gallons as well. The way I think of it is that heat dissipation depends on the temperature differential and total surface area of an exchanger rather than flow through it. Flow serves to maintain a heat differential. Increased flow would seem to increase heat dissipation only if the increased flow didn't lower the temperature too much.
Where I am still hung up a bit is an idea that the cases may act more like a heat accumulator than an exchanger. They have high volume per surface area; are fairly insulated (thick cases); and have high internal thermal mass (gears etc). I can't quite get my head around how much the temperature differential would be affected by a low flow of relatively hot oil or a high flow of cooler oil. Meanwhile, a high flow irrespective of the work performed would generate more heat losses due to more oil going through the pump, orifices etc. Inlet oil temp compared to outlet oil temp is another way of thinking about it
It's kind of a balance thing and I don't know where the balance is. However, your reminder that the system also has lines may be my answer. Steel lines in particular make efficient exchangers and lower flow through them should lessen heat dissipation quite a bit. I know snow and ice always melts on my lines and valves so there is quite a bit of dissipation there. Well, maybe not this morning since it was -34F. ....
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| Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999 Posts: 7249 Toronto Area, Ontario, Canada
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2004-01-14 73958
A couple of small points that may help some Tom.
First, yes less gallons could be a help to the cooling process, but circulation is more important. The more oil there is circulating, the more BTU's it can absorb and give off.
Secondly, a thick case is not necessarily a bad thing. Cast iron is a good conductor of heat and like all other things in nature wants to be at a uniform temperature throughout. Since one side of the cast iron is in contact with the hot fluid, and the other is exposed to much cooler air the heat energy is absorbed and given off at a fairly good rate. The fact that the casting is fairly thick only serves to make its capacity to absorb energy that much better since there is more of it.
Your comment about the internal mass, gears, etc., bring up another point. While it is true they will act as thermal storage, this is a 'double edged sword', it not only slows the dissipation of heat, it slows the accumuilation of heat too. Let me explain what I mean a little. If the entire mass of gears and the fluid are at a temp. of 180F. (for arguements sake only) and you start working and the oil starts to heat up, the gears which are running in that oil will start to absorb heat out of the oil since they are cooler. If the work is of a sporadic nature, like a B/H, as opposed to a constant load like a HST, then the internal mass will be a great help to stabilize the temperature, this in turn makes the overall cooling more efficient by making the temperature differential more uniform.
It all comes down to two big considerations, high flow rates to keep the heat moving, and dissipation for obvious reasons.
It was a common 'old timers' trick to route the oil return line to an oil cooler in the cab, or even just near the operator on an open station machine, a small 12v. fan would give the operator a LOT of heat and make a BIG difference in keeping the TDH fluid cool.
One local farmer near me brazed a length of steel line to a 2' x 2' steel plate, then mounted that an inch or so below the (bare steel) roof of his tractor's cab with a 12v. fan at the back blowing air forwards between the plate and roof and a set of hoses to put the whole setup inline with the return flow of oil from his loader. He claims it keeps the winows clear and him toasty warm even on the coldest days.
Best of luck. ....
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| TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley
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2004-01-15 74033
Morning Murf: Seems strange to be having a discussion about heat when there's so little of it around right now. In my usual quest to improve and organize the ideas I bring here I think we've kicked this around enough to say the system works enough like an exchanger so these ideas apply.
Your comment about heat moving did trigger a idea that is likely reason I was having trouble with the Kubota statement that low rpm could cause over-heating. What I'm thinking that in a tractor system, most heat is contained in the reservoir and it's going to dissipate heat whether there's flow or not. It doesn't need to move and high flow would move some heat back through the system. The opposite would be true for oil coolers and hydraulic lines that have low mass and contain a small percent of the total oil.
However, very low flow may not move enough heat from the cylinders to the reservoir and maybe that's what Kubota was talking about. I suppose this is enough idea kicking on the subject and I think I understand that the steel lines may be important to how a system works. I may follow up on my question whether efficiency may decrease at lower rpm's sometime but I have to work on it a bit. ....
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 | shortmagnum
Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 848 Wisconsin 
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2004-01-15 74035
Wow, dueling thermodynamics. Great exchange guys. I learn so much on this site my brain might explode. ....
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| Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999 Posts: 7249 Toronto Area, Ontario, Canada
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2004-01-15 74038
It's amazing the deep thinking you can come up with when the weather is so cold that the dog doesn't even want to go outside to do his business.....
I think your right about this topic though Tom, I think it's been pretty much covered now. It would be interesting to run a little experiment with some temp. sensor in various locations around a machine and see where the heat moves and how fast it builds up & dissipates though.
I went out last night to play, err, ummm, I mean PLOW the driveway. The ambient air temp. was -10F. and with the windchill it was -30F. and there was about 6" of fresh powder in the driveway. I thoroughly preheated the 'Bota and even plowing several neighbours places wouldn't keep the poor little beast at normal operating temperature.
BTW Tom, have you tried using a snowmobile helmet for your winter work yet? I recall you saying in the fall that you might give it a try.
Best of luck. ....
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 | yooperpete
Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 1413 Northern Michigan 
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2004-01-15 74041
I think your discussion of the original topic has gone off-track. I'm not a member but comment at times. If the tractor manufacturer does not recommend putting a BH on their model tractor, it shouldn't be done. I don't feel that a novice as he describes himself should be led on to thinking it is ok if he uses it cautiously. If he is a novice, how does he know if he is operating it cautiously or not.
My feeling is that you need a pretty good sized tractor to mount a BH to it or else the hoe pushes it all over whenever trying to move much. I have a MF135 with FEL and 3 point mounted hoe with loaded tires & wheel weights in addition to my CUT. I make ditches and dikes on the swamp land hunting property and clear beaver dams. I wish the tractor was bigger/heavier. I also wish the BH had more reach.
I would recommend purchasing a BH rather than making one yourself. You can pickup a used bigger/older tractor like I have and have it dedicated. Be careful, your projects can turn into a monster. You need to learn when to purchase vs: renting or having the work done. I've done it wrong and have 3 tractors, 4 trailers, 5 riding lawnmowers, misc. snowblowers, rear blades, misc. tillers, 3FEL's, 1 backhoe and a super-duty to haul it around (and lots more). The monster can be all consuming.
I can't follow your discussion about less oil keeping the system cooler. As a non-member, I don't get the whole discussion but it sounds the inverse of what I learned in Fluid Dynamics and Heat Transfer classes.
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| tamanaco
Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 41 wellington, oh
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2004-01-15 74101
BR/Pete,
Thanks for getting back on the question. Yep, I'm green, a nubie, beginner, blah, blah, blah. So, Your MF135 unit with all the items described weights how much? It (ther tractor) still get tossed around? What is CUT? Can figure out that acronym, but once told I'll probably feel like an idiot! ....
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 | kwschumm
Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 5764 NW Oregon
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2004-01-15 74102
CUT = Compact Utility Tractor ....
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| TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley
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2004-01-16 74125
Pete: Well, maybe a little off-track. These comments are a side-line coming from an early comment reporting that Kubota says that running one of their tractor/BH's at low rpm's may lead to over-heated oil and we were just trying to figure how that works. The interest here is trying to figure how things work and is certainly not a recommendation for using equipment that's not appropriate for a tractor. I'm entirely an amateur but Murf has considerable training. The subject is pretty well exhausted but you may have contributions to make.
I think the less oil may run cooler comment is less flow rather than less volume. The idea is that any combination of volume and pressure through a system takes power and produces heat. Even when no control valves are active, increased rpm produces more flow and more pressure. More heat added to the system from at least that source.
The logic here is that for Kubota's statement to be true, increased flow from higher rpm's would have to increase heat dissipation enough to offset this heat component and then some if low rpm's may produce over-heated oil. The rest of it is sort of groping toward a principle that flow may be less important to heat dissipation in a high mass/high volume reservoir than in a low-mass/low volume exchanger. Maybe a valid principle and maybe not but I don't think anybody is questioning Kubota's statement. This is mostly idle speculation and play. ....
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| TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley
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2004-01-16 74129
Murf: The SM hat is one of the many things I haven't gotten around to, and I've come back into the house well glaciated several time recently. Fortunately I guessed right and did the snow clearing the afternoon after than last snow while the wind was diminishing but still blowing. That night was when the temp dropped out of sight and I wouldn't have wanted to be doing outside work the past several days. It's been a year of good guessing so far. I've also dodged all the freezing rain in December and still have good snow pack rather than ice.
When I first started I didn't understand the need of making good guesses. There was a lot of freezing rain that year too. Ice on the drives got so thick that I started joking that I was looking for an ice auger so I could bore holes in the drive and practice ice fishing. ....
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| Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999 Posts: 7249 Toronto Area, Ontario, Canada
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2004-01-16 74140
Reminds me of the politician killed while ice-fishing....
He was run over by the Zamboni ...... ....
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| yooperpete
Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 1413 Northern Michigan
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2004-01-16 74178
I finally joined so I could read all of the messages. Hope I didn't step on anyones toes with my comments. My feeling is that putting a backhoe on a sub-compact will yield unacceptable performance due to lack of digging capabilities. This board isn't limited to just CUT's. I mentioned my MF135 as a possible solution. This is a late 70's model tractor that has a low profile with 35HP gas. So in certain respects it is a forerunner of modern compacts like the Ford's and Farmall A but a little on the heavier side. I'm guessing that the MF135 weighs about 4000+ lbs with loaded tires and wheel weights. With the FEL and backhoe it is about 6500lbs. It has a wider stance and more stability than many of the CUT's but can be easily pushed around with the hoe. The swampland that I did around in is real soft sand but has tag alder roots in between. Sometimes the beaver weave a very intricate mess of trees and logs that also gets very heavy and difficult to move.
My point about the hydraulics is that if the manufacturer indicates to run the PTO pump at 540 RPM, you should follow their guidelines. The manufacturer knows allot more about their stuff than we can guess. That may be the optimum efficiency speed of the pump. I don't know if the pump is a constant pressure or constant flow. Either way some pressure release valves or control valves create heat when it is being used or dead headed. MY ARGUMENT IS THAT LESS OIL IS NOT BETTER. The more oil the better (within the capacity range) to act as a reservoir in cooling. In circulating the oil it stirrs it around away from the source of heat and averages the temperature across the total volume. The tractor casing acts as a heat sink drawing the temperature out. With the engine running and (operating in the desert heat) causes higher operating temperatures. The addition of other heat sinks/reservoirs is good to keep the temperature low. ....
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| Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999 Posts: 7249 Toronto Area, Ontario, Canada
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2004-01-16 74180
Pete, first off, WELCOME !!!!
Secondly, I think you mistake the purpose of a B/H on a CUT. I don't think anybody is under the illusion that they are intended to replace an excavator.
As a lcal fellow who digs graves and does headstones with a B/H equipped CUT describes it, it's his "diesel-powered Mexican", it is not intended to anything more, or faster than a person with a good back & shovel would do.
Over-estimating the capabilities of, and/or over-exerting, ANY machine is the biggest source of abuse, regardless of size.
Best of luck. ....
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| yooperpete
Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 1413 Northern Michigan
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2004-01-16 74187
Murf! Thanks for the welcome. I've been viewing the board for quite some time but didn't realize how much of the discussion I was missing.
My point is allot of people don't know their limitations and don't know how to approach things on the side of caution. Nor, do some learn from their mistakes.
I have a brother-in-law with that problem. He has been in ICU in Green Bay for about three weeks now with all his ribs broken, both legs, a punctured lung, some kidney failure, breathing disorders and blood clots in his brain and lungs. And oh yah, a broken jaw and a few missing teeth. So he can't get the last word in on an argument for a while. ....
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| tamanaco
Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 41 wellington, oh
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2004-01-16 74228
Pete, Welcome to the TP.comKUOF. I got it! Thanks to all the five tractor guy's. ....
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| TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley
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2004-01-17 74266
Morning Pete and pretty good points! Just yesterday I ran into my favourite contractor/trucker. some years before I knew him his equipment bit him. He ended up in ICU with broken everything. He wasn't expected to live let along walk again. He did and returned to work and remains the best artist with his JD tracked high hoe that I've ever seen. We can't all expect to be as lucky or tough as he is and I hope you brother in law's outcome is as good. Sticking within recommendations is good advice. I also have to keep my posts shorter, which is good advice for me.
Thanks for your addition of the stirring idea in our theoretical discussion. The idea did come up in passing and it likely should be added to the list of positive factors where flow does increase dissipation. The negative one, which is an increased base load on teh system likely cfan be ignored for practical purposes. However, in an extreme situation such as the hydraulics are loaded to the point the relief valve opens oil may not heat up as fast at lower rpm's. But that's more theory than practical and practically more flow likely runs cooler.
One clarification is that I think the Kubota statement under discussion is to avoid low rpm's, which the quite same as a recommendation to run at pto rpm. I think most tractors and hoes work fine under most working conditions over a fair range of rpms. I know I did quite a bit of trenching when I first got my hoe around 1500 rpm. I had to slow the how way down till I developed a few skills. Now I run at pto rom most times. My skills of course will never rival my favourite artist contractor's. ....
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 | jeff r
Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 428 burton. michigan
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2004-03-02 78562
Guys,
Looks like a good discussion going on here. Anybody thought about changing your old style hydraulic fluid and replace it with synthetic hydro fluid ( Chevron Synthetic is what I use). That synthetic fluid runs WAY cooler than regular hydraulic fluid. Run your backhoe on its own PTO driven pump with a hydraulic resevoir 2.0 times larger than the capacity of your pump. Using those 3 things and the chance of overheating your hydro fluid are slim to none. ....
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| commodore
Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 25 Sweden
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2004-05-14 86022
Hi!
This discussion is some months old, but new to me. Reading through it makes me react on a few things. But first of all to say: I am just theoretically teached about hydraulics and have almost NO practical experiance at all. But my teachers at The Royal Institute Of Technology in Stockholm, Sweden, has worked in cooperation with industrial problems for ages and has a lot input to give when one ask.
What I learnt from them in a course "Hydraulics" was:
1: Never ever use a system to flow over a pressure limit valve. Let the load always determine the pressure. The pressure limit valve opens just a little gap and the fluid runs in speeds near the speed of sound through the gap, causing vacuum bubbles on the other side of it. The vacuum bubbles immidiately implodes (opposite to explode) causing the molecules in the oil to fall apart. What happens is that the oil very fast gets destroyed in its nature of behavior and no longer withstands the performance it is said to have.
2: It is a good idea to have a separate oil cooling line in series with a filter (means separate oil pump, that does not need to be high performance, just make a flow). That makes the filtering capacity and cooling capacity constant, which is good for filtering performance and good to life length of the oil. If the only filtering capacity is located at the line of implement use, the filter is recieving a very uneaven flow of oil, which is much less efficiant. That does not mean to disconnect a filter in that line and build up a new filter line INSTEAD, but it is very good as a complement.
3: Filters vary in quality and quality is not necessarily linear to price. Mount a twice as big filter and recieve 4 times larger capacity of filtering the size of particles it is said to manage. The filters has always a filtering ability, which is a performance a filter salesman should be able of telling you. Also the pressure fall over the filter is such a performance. I can not say that I know that you can change from a manufacturer specified filter to another, because then I probably get killed by someone, but me myself would definitely change to a larger and better one than specified. Manufacturers always hunt for lower prices and counterweighs the quality specifications to it. The oil is supposed to carry away wear particles and the particles are supposed to get catched in the filter. Any particle which is not belonging to the oil when you filled the oil into the system, is bad to the system. But one must have a filter that does not filter away as small particles as the working molecules in the oil...
4: Oil age. In cars engines, the oil mostly age of oxidation. Yes, the PH sinks due to condensation and causes rust to the metal bearings in the engine. Particles is not a big problem in engines, as far as I have learnt. In hydraulic systems the problems also many times relate to oxidation of the oil. Water comes into it of several reasons, as condensation in the tank for example. The hydraulic cylinders will not be completely emptied of oil, because the oil often flow forward and back in the near of the piston. A good advice must be to make some gymnastics to the device before turning it off, when the system is in working temperature. Dont slam the mechanics into end positions though, that will cause other problems... Another good advice must be not to spare a few bucks not to change oil and filter. The oil ages and the filter saves the machinery from internal wear from particles.
5: As far as I can see, the best thing must be to have a separate pump to a backhoe, if it is not often used. Link the system of the tractor up with the hoe and mix the old oil with the probably newer oil in the tractor. OK, my opinion.
Yep, this was a load from one who do not know anything... Everyone must be careful about him/herself and curious/watching out for knowledge. The only way to make desicions about oneself is to listen to as many as possible and then decide what is right. This was a complement to all the other posts here and I think that with consideration of all said here, a newbie would know quite a bit how to care for him/herself and the machinery around. I learn all the time!
And I still want a Compact... and a piece of land to play around on. I do not really know what is the most important! :)
Erik, Sweden ....
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| earthwrks
Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 3853 Home Office in Flat Rock, Michigan
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2004-05-14 86025
I think it's a fluid cooling issue. Generally speaking, if the fluid (and the pump) are allowed to get very warm, the pump case will expand (usually they are aluminum) quicker than the steel pump gears and pressure plates inside. This results in fluid bypassing the side plates inside resulting in loss of pressure and fluid cavitation/aeration which increases heat more and reduces lubricity of the pump parts. ....
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| tamanaco
Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 41 wellington, oh
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2004-05-19 86407
Erik,
Welcome to tractor point. I flew through Stockholm on my way back from Helsinki. What a great view of the shore line. You guys really have the Islands. I have a sailboat and cruise on Lake Erie. Can not imagine sail through all the Islands on the coasts.
Good luck on getting the land, then get the tractor.
Br,
Bill ....
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 | busguy
Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 27 Vernon NY
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2004-05-20 86422
I was at my JD dealer last week. he claims to have a couple of customers with wallenstein backhoes on 2210's. he said they have been trouble free so far and that he believes that if JD were to design a backhoe for the 2210 it would mount something like the wallenstein. He also gave me the name and number of one of the guys and said call him and he will let you come take a look at it. ....
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