Go BottomBackhoe Hydraulic Hose Line Set up
 | barney0364
Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 9 Harlingen, Texas 
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2009-01-21 159702
just finished making a backhoe attachment for my tractor a john deere 750 w/fel. Now I need to plum it, need to know how to tie it into the tractors hydraulics. would really appreciate any and all info.
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 | candoarms
Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 1932 North Dakota 
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2009-01-21 159704
Barney,
I don't know if it means anything to you, but an easy way to do this is to install a remote hydraulic fluid reservoir, along with a PTO driven pump to power your backhoe.
It's a very simple setup, but the best part is that you'll probably get better performance from the backhoe with the added flow available from the PTO powered pump. Works great. Plenty of flow available for most anything hydraulic.
Joel ....
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| candoarms
Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 1932 North Dakota
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2009-01-21 159706
Barney0364,
I just checked the specs on the John Deere 750. You've got a 20hp engine. I believe your tractor's hydraulic pump will supply about 4 gallons per minute.
A backhoe typically employs 3 hydraulic cylinders simultaneously. With only 4 gallons per minute (just a rough guess), your backhoe might seem slow and sluggish to you....depeding upon the size of the cylinders you used.
If you were to use a rear mounted PTO pump sized properly for your tractor's rated PTO horsepower, rather than the tractor's internal hydraulic pump, you could nearly triple the number of gallons per minute available to your backhoe.
I believe this would be the better choice for a tractor like the JD 750.
Joel ....
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| barney0364
Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 9 Harlingen, Texas
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2009-01-22 159709
thanks for responding. It would be a little slow to say the least, you also have your two swing cylinders. I just was drawing a blank, forgot about the pto and using a pump. I just need to add some brackets for the reseivor and a filter to the frame and bob's your uncle. thanks Joel I'll post some pics soon of the tractor with backhoe thanks again.
barney ....
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| candoarms
Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 1932 North Dakota
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2009-01-22 159722
Barney0364,
There are many different pump brands to choose from, but Prince is a highly respected name in the hydraulics world. Your tractor puts out about 18 PTO horsepower. Therefore, the proper pump for your backhoe and tractor would be the Prince HC-PTO-2A (See the link below). You'll also need a torque bar kit, to keep your pump from spinning.
If I understand you correctly, you have two stabilizer cylinders; two swing cylinders; three additional cylinders on the arm; making a total of 7 cylinders.
You'll need to size your reservoir properly for operation of all of these cylinders, as well as to allow enough fluid in reserve to allow time for proper fluid cooling.
General rule of thumb = Pump flow rate (in gallons per minute) x 2
In other words, if your pump puts out 11 gallons per minute, you should have a reservoir no smaller than about 22 gallons.
I'd go a little bigger, since you'll have a couple of gallons stored in the extended stabilizer cylinders.
A 25 gallon reservoir should work great for you.
Joel ....
Link: Prince HC-PTO-2A Hydraulic Pump
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| barney0364
Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 9 Harlingen, Texas
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2009-01-22 159723
candoarms,
If seem other setup use like 5 to 7gpm pumps and about the same size reservoir. What do you think about that setup? I've seen some pumps on ebay and I'm looking locally as well. I have a cooler that I well be using so heat should not be a factor.
And yes I have a total of seven cylinders, you can say they where on sale that day.
All I really need is to find pump and reservoir. Thanks Joel for all the info.
Barney ....
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| candoarms
Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 1932 North Dakota
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2009-01-22 159727
Barney,
You don't have to go with the biggest pump you can find. A 7 gallon per minute pump will nearly double the output available from your tractor's internal pump. This would be a great improvement.
Additionally, if you go with the 7 gallon per minute pump, you should be able to get away with using a smaller reservoir, as well. Since you have a cooler installed, you might be able to get away with using only a 10-12 gallon reservoir.
Keep us posted.
Joel ....
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| candoarms
Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 1932 North Dakota
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2009-01-22 159728
Barney,
I forgot to mention something very important.
A whole lot of equipment is sold with undersized reservoirs installed. I don't know why they do this. It's just plain stupid.
Proper fluid cooling is extremely important to the life of the pump, spool valves, cylinder seals, hoses, etc. Adding a little extra fluid capacity greatly aids the needed cooling time.
Hydraulic fluids can get HOT. Summer heat only makes matters worse. Go with a bigger reservoir. You don't need overkill here, but even with a cooler in place I wouldn't go any smaller than 10 gallons.
Joel ....
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| wmgeorge
Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 38 Central Iowa
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2009-02-13 160290
Ok, Gee I guess I can help because I had the exact same problem when I built my BH (CaDDigger 608 3-4 gpm)for my JD650. I have a FEL, power steering and of course the 3 point hitch. The local JD dealer was no help at all. The little 16 HP JD system runs the backhoe just fine, believe me you do not need speed :) with a BH, especially one on a small tractor. Mine works just fine, did landscaping project and dug in a sewer line.
First you need a control valve for your BH that has a power beyond port, in addition to the In and Out ports. Might need to purchase a couple fittings in addition to the 3 hoses. When the BH is removed two hoses needs to be jumped with a short hose so the 3 point will work. I think I had maybe $100 in fitting cost over and above the cost of the hoses and couplers which you need even with a PTO Pump.
If you still want to continue with this let me know, I will either send you or post the drawing I made for my system. ....
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| barney0364
Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 9 Harlingen, Texas
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2009-02-14 160291
wmgeorge,
well thank you for answering the post. I already have a parker control valve but I'm looking for a power beyond for that control valve, just been so busy. I know JD dealer was no help saying that the kit for my 750 was no longer available. I would apprecite any info and help thank you.
Barney ....
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| wmgeorge
Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 38 Central Iowa
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2009-02-14 160321
You need a power beyond kit as you have ordered. Basically all the valves are in series on these JD's. The in and out on your control valve is plumbed like you would think, the (out) return line goes back to the tank/transmission case. The Beyond port goes to IN port of the next valve in series. When it gets nicer next week I will just take some pictures and post. Like you found out the JD dealer knew nothing. I had the books for the power steering, and FEL installation so that helped. I also spent some time tracing out the lines and it worked the first time. ....
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| barney0364
Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 9 Harlingen, Texas
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2009-02-15 160323
wmgeorge
Question what if you went from the power beyond port from the fel out into the in port of the control valve, and then the out port of the control valve back into the tank/transmission. Then have a third line for when I unhook the backhoe that returns back into the three point so the system is still in a loop. Because that would be the last valve too be controlled. Our am I thinking wrong?
Barney ....
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| wmgeorge
Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 38 Central Iowa
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2009-02-15 160336
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That is basically correct. The OUT port of your BH control valve is dumped back to your transmission case, which holds the hydraulic fluid as well as acting as a lube for the transmission. When it is not being dumped after being used in the BH circuit, it goes to the Power Beyond port to the next valve in series. This way the pump is not deadheaded. However since I have power steering and a #67 FEL the 3 point on mine was the last place in the circuit (I think) and closest to where I needed the port hoses for the BH. I just took the fitting off that feeds the 3 point, to the IN port of the BH valve and then the OUT port back to the transmission case down low on the left side (setting in the seat) there is a 1/2" pipe plug, in my case they had a heater installed. You will need a clean 5 gal bucket as when you remove that plug, most of your oil will drain out. The Power Beyond port then gets the line back to feed the 3 point valve under the seat. So when you remove the BH the line to the IN port and Power Beyond port are jumped with a short hose so the 3 point will work. Takes some time to figure out what you need for hoses and fittings, but mine works fine this way. My tractor is a early model 650. I need to get some pictures to make sure, after the 6" of snow is off my canvas covering the tractor. BG ....
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 | auerbach
Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 2168 West of Toronto 
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2009-02-15 160337
If the hoe attaches to the rear hitch (as opposed to a subframe or a JD equivalent) try using the hydraulics it came with. The slower/weaker digging will be less likely to break the tractor. ....
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| wmgeorge
Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 38 Central Iowa
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2009-02-15 160348
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That's what we are talking about here. These older JD tractors are made different than your newer ones. My 650 uses real cast iron and heavy steel vs whatever the new hobby farm tractors have today. My BH is a three point, and don't tell me I am going to "tear" my tractor apart, that isn't going to happen. ....
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 | Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999 Posts: 7249 Toronto Area, Ontario, Canada
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2009-02-16 160358
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At least we have it in writing. LOL
You're not the first person to say that, most later regretted saying so. There's lot's of other possibilities beyond the bell housing snapping, the most common of which is the upper 3rd point of the hitch tearing away.
A 3pth is not designed to hold the torsional loads of a B/H. Period.
Best of luck. ....
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| wmgeorge
Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 38 Central Iowa
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2009-02-16 160361
Post a actual picture of a 1980's or older JD 650 or 750 that has been broken in half or the 3 point top hitch torn out from the rear axle housing using the tractor hydraulic system.
....
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| hardwood
Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 3583 iowa
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2009-02-16 160363
WM; sorry I don't have a picture, but I've saw a couple three point upper links torn in half by a bachnoe, and have heard,(but didn't see)the three point upper bracket torn out of the rear housing on a Farmall 656, (cast iron). The real skinny is that three point backhoes are bad news unless used real gingerly. Frank. ....
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| Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999 Posts: 7249 Toronto Area, Ontario, Canada
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2009-02-16 160364
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I don't have one, yet, but I can show you lots of tractors far bigger and more robust than that have suffered the same fate, 1960's vintage Fords and Cases. Big 40hp 'chore' sized 2wd farm machines.
If you just read the spec's it's pretty clear, a machine that has a 3pth rated for probably about 1,000 pounds wasn't designed to take the loads of a 1,000 pound backhoe with 4,000 - 5,000 pounds of combined digging force.
best of luck ....
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| barney0364
Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 9 Harlingen, Texas
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2009-02-16 160380
wmgeorge
Intresting post I hope you well be able to get some pics posted so I can see how you did your setup on you 650. But I think I have an idea. Really apprecite your help. when I get a new camera I well post the pics. ....
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| wmgeorge
Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 38 Central Iowa
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2009-02-20 160469
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:) Look up the spec's on a CaDDigger 608. If it weighs 500 lbs I would be surprised. My valve bypass is set at 1800 psi and with 14 Hp PTO rated, and 16 Hp otherwise, I really really am not concerned. Did you read the part where I said I used it all last summer? IF I were using today's modern constructed CUT with 30-60 Hp plus, then I'd be using a frame mounted BH.
I would be happy to see photos any actual farm tractor of any age pulled apart with a 3 point backhoe. Lots of rumors, probably started by equipment dealers. ....
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| wmgeorge
Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 38 Central Iowa
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2009-02-20 160470
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I will get some Sunday, most of the snow will be off it by then. I think you have a pretty good idea of how it works. Speed and lots of power is NOT what you want with digging, until you get much more experience. ....
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| Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999 Posts: 7249 Toronto Area, Ontario, Canada
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2009-02-23 160531
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First off, you really need to read all the spec's slowly, and with great attention to detail. Like any other specs (i.e. pickup trucks, etc.) they are a) written by the marketing guys for the most part, and meant to make their product look the best, they usually have no relationship to the 'real world', and b) even the factual stuff is normally based on hypothetical data, not proven stats based on measurements of a production model.
Given the above, what I could find on an older JD 650 says that the ENTIRE 3pth is rated for 1,000 pounds AT THE LIFT PINS. In other words, the upper point is good for the 'tipping load' of a maximum of 1,000 pounds.
Based on the weight of the steel, cylinders, etc., of a comparable small hoe, your 608 weighs about 600 pounds, and even in a static position it does NOT have it's center of mass at the lift pins, more likely about 30"++ back of that. That alone will transfer a significant load onto the upper point.
Add to that the fact that the manufacturer states that the B/H can develop 2,600 pounds of "ripping power" at the bucket and you have a recipe for a broken tractor.
As for the "rumors, probably started by equipment dealers" I doubt it, especially since I've seen several broken tractors myself. The image linked to below is but one story of a fellow who had that very problem, a 3pth B/H was too much for the transmission casting on his JD4700. In fact on his website he complains he has just got it back after repair by the dealer, for the SECOND TIME.
If you want to see more there is lots of them out there.
Of course he could just be in conspiracy with the dealers to start rumours, you never know.
Best of luck.
....
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| wmgeorge
Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 38 Central Iowa
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2009-02-23 160549
"Used it all last summer without a problem" Nothing "ripped out" or "cracked". As you look at the CaDDigger design you will see the outriggers with feet that face Out and Down. They take the digging force and there is very little pulling on the actual tractor.
I would like to see the text with the picture of the cracked transmission. Once again remember my tractor has the horsepower I stated above.
Yes, I will give you a frame mounted or "real" backhoe is the way to go. But for a part time acreage, weekend user or small farm user a 3 point BH can do the job.
Cadplans has been in business for over 20 years, and the owner designs and sells the plans, plus operates another companion metal kit business. John is an engineer, so this is not just a back yard project.
Link to CadPlans site > http://www.cadplans.com/john.htm
OK I did find the text.
Read it yourself... He talks about a defective JD rear axle housing and driving over a rock. Nothing about any type of BH causing a problem!!
http://sugarmtnfarm.com/blog/2006/11/tractor-back-north-walls-rising ....
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 | kwschumm
Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 5764 NW Oregon
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2009-02-23 160550
I've never seen Atlantis, doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
The backhoe on my JD has outriggers that face down and out and it can easily shove the tractor all over the place.
It sounds like you're convinced you're right. That's OK, nothing wrong with a guy being right unless they prove themselves wrong. Although that's the best kind of experience to have, it can be expensive.
I'm sure if you google you'll find stories of broken tractors with 3-point backhoes. Some might even have pictures, but then there's always photoshop. ....
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| pubwvj
Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 3 Vermont
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2009-02-24 160554
That is my JD4700 tractor transmission casing that is cracked in the photo above. I have a JD49 backhoe mounted on the back of the tractor. The backhoe is not a 3-point hitch mounting type, it mounts onto the frame of the tractor.
Nothing about either time the casing broke seems related to the backhoe. Rather the first time there was a visible flaw in the manufacturing of the transmission casing along the top and it broke there from the weak spot.
Five years later the new casing broke but in a completely different spot on the bottom after I rolled over a large rock that I had unknowingly dropped in front of the tractor.
The first time the casing literally split in half and I could see into the gears. The second time the casing merely cracked. I can see ways JD could build a better tractor but the backhoe isn't the issue.
Of course none of this excuses John Deere for not keeping stock in this country, for manufacturing it in Japan and selling it as an American Product and for using the slow boat to get the casing here.
Cheers
-Walter
Sugar Mountain Farm
in the mountains of Vermont
http://SugarMtnFarm.com/blog/
http://HollyGraphicArt.com/
http://NoNAIS.org
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| wmgeorge
Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 38 Central Iowa
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2009-02-24 160556
Thanks for straightening things out!
I know my JD 650 was made in Japan,(by Yammar) but had no idea that was still being done as it looks like your tractor is new. Frankly the way John Deere is going here in Iowa, I would not be surprised if it all goes to China.
Once again I am disappointed in quality of your tractor as I know you purchased thinking John Deere was the best.
In all my searching on the internet, now and last year (before I built) I only found one tractor with a cracked transmission housing that had been welded. As I recall it was an older much abused Case that had years of use with a backhoe.
Once again back to my little 3 point backhoe, I would never ever suggest it for full time use or for major jobs. It only digs 5 ft deep and the power is not overwhelming :). My son used it for 3 weeks last summer for trenching and foundation work, and I used it for 3 or 4 weeks doing some landscaping and trenching for a sewer line.
It was designed by an engineer and many have been built and works fine for the intended purpose as I have stated before.
....
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 | kthompson
Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 5278 South Carolina
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2009-02-24 160557
Walter, glad you chimed in. Man what timing. Look forward to seeing more of your post.
Kim Komando who is suppose to be a computer guru or such but anyways has her own radio program broadcast across this country the other day said something we often forget: you have no idea who is on the other end of internet communication. Also true here. At the risk of offending here and that is not my intention at all; there is more knowledge and experience on the side of don't use 3 pth bh than is realized. On the side of there is no way they will do damage may be very wise gentlemen but "I" have no idea of their background.
I have NEVER used a tractor mounted bh of any kind. Have used tractor mounted boom mower and the specs on it required support for the 3pht mount. I doubt very seriously the load it placed on the lift system would equaled a bh for the same size tractor.
My brother uses a side mount rotary cutter that weighs some where in the 2,000 pound range. It is on a Massey with 75 hp and cat 2 lift system. He does not use it more than about 20 to 40 hours per year. Last time used he had to have the end on the right lift arm replaced the second time. This is on top of damaged lift arm. This cutter design has been out there for years and no doubt thousands of these units are in use.
When I bought my first tractor which was some where in 45 hp range but heavy Case unit, one thing the salesman went to great details to warn me against was some equipment sold for 3 pth mounting. Have also had same warning from a local Kubota dealership which I was just in conversation with.
No doubt there are many who overload all kind of equipment from the pickup with the rear bumper dragging and live to tell about it. But that does not mean it is safe or will never fail. Where the 3pth bh has worked for you with no damage you are aware of, does not mean there is no damage or a person who will run one at just little different speed or depth or what ever will have same experience. This I know, if you experience the damage to the housing or lift system or such...get your wallet ready.
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| Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999 Posts: 7249 Toronto Area, Ontario, Canada
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2009-02-24 160558
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In order for a B/H to do anything but mess up turf it has to have something that engineers describe as "breakout force" (CadPlans calls it "ripping force"), that is a measure of the force that the bucket exerts in an upward direction.
If you look at the tractor and B/H from the side, you will see that, despite the outriggers which will only really help with lateral forces (pulling you into the hole instead of pulling the dirt out, that's why they're on an angle) and the dead weight, almost the entire force created by the B/H lifting upwards is countered by the upper link making the weight of lifting the tractors front end greater than the weight in the B/H bucket and so the bucket of dirt comes up instead of the front wheels of the tractor.
If you don't believe me, just replace your upper link with a hydraulic cylinder that has a pressure gauge connected to the rod side port. I'm betting you will be astounded by the readings you get.
As for the comment by 'pubwvj' "Nothing about either time the casing broke seems related to the backhoe. Rather the first time there was a visible flaw in the manufacturing of the transmission casing along the top and it broke there from the weak spot. Five years later the new casing broke but in a completely different spot on the bottom after I rolled over a large rock that I had unknowingly dropped in front of the tractor." I'm astounded, the dealer must be able to really spin a story. To say that anything but excessive loads broke that casing is unbelievable.
Visible flaw? Heck, there's a big dam hole in the top of every transmission casing, why don't they all break there?
Best of luck. ....
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| pubwvj
Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 3 Vermont
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2009-02-25 160589
I rolled over the rock and was quite aware of it. The tractor was parked on top of the rock when I got off to look. I also, at that time, examined the bent front steering cylinder that had been also hit by the rock as I went over it. All the rock powder was very fresh on each of the contact points. The insurance investigator got his photos of it before the dealer ever saw it. No need for the dealer to spin any sort of story. It was simple reality.
The visible flaw in the casing was a bubble, a void pocket in the metal. Quite visible. There is a tremendous difference between a flaw in structural metal and an intentional port hold in the device, speaking from a structural engineering point of view. On top of that John Deere replaced that transmission casing under warrantee, paying for all the parts, labor, transportation, etc - because it was a flaw in manufacturing. Again, no need to spin, just simple reality.
The cracks in the transmission casing, which occurred five years apart, were caused by two different things and occurred on opposite sides of the transmission casings.
Our backhoe hangs on the tractor, not the 3-pt hitch, so that did not crack the transmission nor does it support your argument since it was not a 3-pt hitch backhoe.
I agree with that 3-pt hitch backhoes are asking for trouble - which is why I don't have one. On the JD4700 I have the 3-pt hitch lift arms are used to pick the backhoe up and hang it from the body of the tractor where it is then pinned. Different beast entirely. Once mounted there forces are not being placed on the 3-pt hitch and the 3-pt hitch has no power.
Murf, I most respectfully suggest you stick to the things you know about. There is plenty you know a great deal about so there is no need to make up false facts for situations where you know nothing.
Interesting to hear someone was able to weld closed the transmission casing. I have wondered about that. I saved mine. My wife thinks I'm a pack rat. I'm just forward thinking. Besides, its a honkin' big hunk of metal I might need for something. :)
Cheers
-Walter
Sugar Mountain Farm
in the mountains of Vermont
http://SugarMtnFarm.com/blog/
http://HollyGraphicArt.com/
http://NoNAIS.org ....
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| Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999 Posts: 7249 Toronto Area, Ontario, Canada
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2009-02-25 160591
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Murf, I most respectfully suggest you stick to the things you know about. There is plenty you know a great deal about so there is no need to make up false facts for situations where you know nothing.
:)Cheers-WalterSugar [/QUOTE]
Walter,
First off, if the design tolerance is so narrow on the transmission casing that a simple void would cause a catastrophic failure, then no, a designed in opening wouldn't be any different. An opening in a structural tube shape is a point where there is NOT 4 full sides of support, period.
I have not seen your B/H but every other one I've seen has a sub-frame that is nothing but a simple ladder style frame that goes forward to the mounting bosses at the rear of the engine casting. They also still link to the upper point of the 3pth for stability. To say that it exerts no bending moment of the transmission casing is just silly. The load of the B/H is trying to lever the front of the tractor up using the rear axle as the fulcrum point. In the opposite direction, any load on the FEL is trying to lift the rear end of the tractor up using the front wheels as a fulcrum point.
Stuck in the middle is the transmission that wants to bend to allow both to happen.
It is interesting that your website makes a couple of curious statements;
"....we got the chains, fluid fill and wider wheel base against the dealer's advice."
"I have a JD49 backhoe mounted on the back of the tractor. A few people have suggested that is the cause of the problem. I don't think so."
"Nothing about either time the casing broke seems related to the backhoe. Rather the first time there was a visible flaw in the manufacturing of the transmission casing along the top and it broke there from the weak spot.
Five years later the new casing broke but in a completely different spot on the bottom after I rolled over a large rock that I had unknowingly dropped in front of the tractor."
Unbelievable.
You overload the machine, stress the daylights out of it and then use a derogatory manner to basically tell everyone, myself included, that the whole world is wrong except you when an event (rock or otherwise) causes the inevitable failure?
In fact, you go on to say "It is remotely possible the extra weight of the backhoe has an deleterious effect however it is over the pivot of the axle and the backhoe is mounted on the frame, not the 3pt hitch. I-beams front to back would make the tractor stronger and be worth having from a strength point of view but would they then reduce the tractor's flexibility?"
Flexibility? How in God's green earth can cast iron be anything close to what you would describe as "flexible"?
As for your statement "Murf, I most respectfully suggest you stick to the things you know about." I have degrees in two different disciplines of engineering.
You sir, what are your credentials? ....
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| wmgeorge
Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 38 Central Iowa
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2009-02-25 160602
Wow, I guess no one can be correct here except... Anyway back to the topic at hand. I've posted images here via Photobucket link for those who want to see how I did my, not - engineered by John Deere hydraulic hookup for for my 3 point back hoe. My big fear getting into this, as my tractor was made in Japan was that the pipe fittings could be metric, however everything was US pipe thread and standard hydraulic fittings.
Notice my tractor is still in one piece in spite of the tremendous loading from my 12 inch BH bucket ;). ....
Link: Photobucket
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| Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999 Posts: 7249 Toronto Area, Ontario, Canada
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2009-02-25 160610
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Yup, that's pretty much how it seems to be........ :(
Oh well, some people just don't want to learn. ....
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| kthompson
Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 5278 South Carolina
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2009-02-25 160616
wmgeorge, don't think anyone is trying to beat you up here. At same time demanding others they must produce pictures may not happened to suit you.
I am one who does not take pictures of much other than family. Have had damaged equipement and never did it enter my mind what I needed to do was take picture. My concern was how to fix it, what it will cost and such. (Such as this past Saturday.) Have a good friend who owns a small tractor dealership. They have had about anything to happen you have ever heard of. In all of my time there have never once seen a picture they took or a customer. Again your implement and your tractor and you as operator may be a very safe match. But change one of those and it can be totally different issue. The sad part is that change can happen in a second and be really serious to machine or man. ....
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| SamSpade
Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 41 Vermont
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2009-02-25 160619
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I don't get it, Murph, in the quote above that you put up with the picture of a cracked transmission you seem to attribute the failure to a 3pth backhoe. The owner of that tractor comes back and says a 3pth backhoe has not been attached to that tractor. John Deere's warranty claims determined it was attributed to a manufacturing flaw in the transmission case. Are you saying, "Nope, none of you know what you are talking about. My calibrated eye can tell from this picture, this was a tractor cracked in half by a 3pth backhoe!"?
I just want to make sure I understand you correctly. ....
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| Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999 Posts: 7249 Toronto Area, Ontario, Canada
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2009-02-26 160627
Sam, in re-reading my post I must say I wasn't clear enough.
In reality, there isn't a B/H out there, sub-frame or 3pth type, that does not put a load on the transmission casing. In fact, if you want to get fussy about it a FEL does too.
What would have been more proper for me to have said would have been something along the lines of "A B/H mounted on the tractor and probably connected to part of the 3pth.....".
The bottom line is that no matter what you add to the tractor, you are adding STRESS to it's components. Period. If you dig up a picture of a 'sub-frame' mounted B/H you will see the 'frame' is nothing but a couple of steel bars (resembling a small ladder) that bolt up underneath the tractor. It doesn't change the physics of by much if anything. A narrow section of channel steel will have a lot of flex, a cast iron transmission will not. Guess which one gives first?
If you go back up to my above post, the statement "The load of the B/H is trying to lever the front of the tractor up using the rear axle as the fulcrum point. In the opposite direction, any load on the FEL is trying to lift the rear end of the tractor up using the front wheels as a fulcrum point." Sums it up best.
The other poster, Walter, admits he loaded up his tractor (wheels loaded & B/H on back, FEL on front) and spread the wheels out to the max. against his dealers advice and doesn't really think that had anything to do with the break.
The bottom line is that if you overload anything long enough it will fail.
I used to have a neighbour who was just plain tough on vehicles or equipment, he border-line abused everything he owned. He was the sort of guy my grand-father would have described as "someone that could bust an anvil with a rubber mallet". He came to me one day to ask if I could do some welding for him. He was obviously upset so I just played along. He told me his pickup had a crack in the frame rails and the manufacturer refused to warranty it and wanted big bucks to fix it. Insurance had likewise denied him. He told me "his no good BIL had 'busted it up on him'". Now I had seen the owner regularly load it up with fresh-cut green firewood to the point it was sitting on the rubber snubbers on the leafsprings and drive that way 2+ hours home from the lake.
It turns out his BIL had borrowed the truck to move a new fridge. I doubt a 300 pound refrigerator cracked the frame. Upon closer inspection, the cracks in the frame were obviously rusty. The cracks had been there a long time.
It didn't matter to the owner, the fact the BIL was driving at the time they were found (the BIL thought the truck was wallowing down the road and had it checked out and found the cracks) meant to him, the BIL was the one who damaged it. Period. There was no swaying him.
IMHO Walters tractor is EXACTLY the same thing. Overloaded for some time, according to the website some 5 years, and then carrying a rock big enough to high-arch the machine he says "A few minutes later I was gently scooping up some dirt and *CRACK* that sound I oh so didn't want to hear happened.".
I doubt it was anything more than a precipitating event. The same as a guy popping a couple of little blue pills and having a heart attack while enjoying some 'quality time'. If he has a bad heart already, did the little blue pills cause the heart attack, or just trigger it?
Best of luck. ....
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| SamSpade
Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 41 Vermont
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2009-02-26 160629
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Murph,
I thought we were talking about whether or not a 3pth bh could crack a tractor in half.
If Walter's tractor has not had a 3pth BH attached, how did it become part of this thread?
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| Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999 Posts: 7249 Toronto Area, Ontario, Canada
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2009-02-26 160635
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As I said above, "In reality, there isn't a B/H out there, sub-frame or 3pth type, that does not put a load on the transmission casing. In fact, if you want to get fussy about it a FEL does too.".
No B/H puts ZERO stress on the transmission casing and all the rest of the components that make up the 'frame' either for that matter.
The only real difference between a 3pth & sub-frame mounted B/H are are what holds them up, it's either the lift arms, or a small set of channel steel ladder type frame rails. I've never seen a B/H on a CUT that did not use the upper link or some other part of the diff. housing as part of it's mounting system.
A 4" c-channel frame will do little to hold a B/H if there is no other mounting point. It must be tied into a higher point to give it strength.
As I pointed out earlier, even if you did make a big strong frame that needed no other connections, it would be flexible, cast iron isn't, so you will transmit loads through to the tractor.
Best of luck. ....
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| kthompson
Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 5278 South Carolina
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2009-02-26 160637
Sam, jump on me here also. This thread did not begin on this issue at all and as many discussions at any such site it moves as it goes along. So forgive my moving it even further or get upset and I can start a new thread on this question and I am not attacking anyone. Boy now TP has to be PC it seems.
Walter tells he damaged the housing and a steering cylinder by driving over a rock which he did not realize he had dropped. I am not being smart here rather ignorant as thankfully we don't have many rocks here. It would seem a rock this large you would have felt it come out of fel (I assume that is where it was dropped from) but if bouncing a long at good clip probably not) it would also seem it would require a good bit of speed to damage the steering cylinder and then run up on it with enough speed to crack the housing. To me, a person who has little fel experience, would seem running too fast for conditions. Well that is not a question now that I type it, the fact you ended up with the damage you did proves that fact. I just find it interesting.
Now further off topic, about two years ago a tooth broke off of a gear in my transmission. Disking in a good size field with no stumps or rocks and had not changed gears or used clutch in a while. Why did the gear break? Was it a bad piece of metal it was machine from? Was it the hard jolting work I had done the week or so before in removing stumps? Was the gear undersize for the engine hp? Don't know and can not say but sure do remember the cost and do know there has been no more stump pulling like I had done.
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| Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999 Posts: 7249 Toronto Area, Ontario, Canada
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2009-02-26 160638
Not too beat this much further to death than it already has been but there is a thread, complete with several pictures, on another forum, wherein the poster says he has a "1963 Ford 4140 Heavy Duty Industrial Tractor" with a 6"x2"x3/8" C-channel frame to mount the hoe and loader to the tractor.
The posters pictures clearly show cracks of ~8" long running downwards from the top of the trans. housing. He claims "The rear end and transmission housings were both cracked from the stress of using the hoe. Both had been repaired, cracked again and the cracks were on the march to split the tractor at new and interesting places. Both had to be replaced. $$"
If you can repeatedly break a good-sized tractor with a sub frame that stout, a small tractor doesn't stand a chance. It might not be tomorrow, or next week, up eventually.
Best of luck. ....
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| wmgeorge
Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 38 Central Iowa
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2009-02-26 160644
So bottom line your opinion is this; A sub-frame mount backhoe even if designed,(by engineers) approved and sold by the tractor manufacturer or 3 point backhoe (designed by yet another engineer) is going the crack the transmission case sooner or later. Regardless either way
I am going to send this on to my friend who was an engineer for John Deere here in Iowa before he retired. He now does consulting work for JD part time.
BTW I hope the person who asked the question about my hose connections has received his answer, and I have helped. BG ....
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| barney0364
Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 9 Harlingen, Texas
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2009-02-26 160646
wmgeorge,
Thanks for the pics and they did help. Thanks again
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| Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999 Posts: 7249 Toronto Area, Ontario, Canada
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2009-03-31 161573
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The other thread on broken tractors reminded me of this thread.
Any word back from your friend yet?
Best of luck. ....
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