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grinder
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2004-03-20          80455


I didn't write it I just came across it.
I don't say that it's acurate. I can't
think of any more disclaimers, thought it
was interesting as to where our tractor
manufactures went.


Link:   

Click Here


 
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blizzard
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2004-03-20          80458


An interesting perspective, Grinder.
There have been several comparisons of America's economy to that of 'Third-World' countries, especially as to the importing of finished products, and the shift from a manufacturing to a 'service based' economy.
One effect of inexpensive imports has been an overall steep decline in quality, especially in clothing. In smaller towns it is impossible to buy a USA manufactured outfit(shoes, socks,pants,shirt,underwear) and the imported stuff sheds buttons, zippers break, seams unravel, eyelets and soles of the shoes come loose. In the meantime the importer, distributor and retailer make hefty profits, so an item that originally costs 10% of a US manufactured one sells for 50-80% of the 'quality' price.
Sorry for the rant, but I get so pissed-off listening to the politicians, economists, and businessmen praising globalization and free trade while Americans lose good wages, benefits, and in some cases even the option to quality!
bliz ....

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Peters
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2004-03-20          80468


I am afraid I am guilty of some of the rants on this subject over the years. The last I looked the trade deficit was running at 400 billion/year. Simple economic states that to buy the goods we must sell something to the world. A US dollar is only wall paper without its ability to buy something. What is the foriegner buying? He has to buy part of the country.
To put it into prospective. A large company is basicly worth one times its yearly sales. Therefore the largest companies in the US (GE)which is really an international company is worth about 200 billion.
We are therefore selling about two GE's per year to supply our needs for cheap goods.
When we sell the country to a communist what happens? Well recently an electric heating element manufacturer in AL was sold to the Chinese. The employees got their pink slips in January. A furniture company sold to Chinese two years ago in MS with the same results. ....

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grinder
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2004-03-20          80497


Bliz,
I don't have a problem with free trade,it's the fair trade
that is the problem.(IMHO)
Can't sell our goods to someone making $2.00 bucks a day and
no benefits. ....

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Abbeywoods
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2004-03-20          80506


As I lay around the house recovering from back surgery I realize how fortunate my wife and I are, to be American, to be employed, and to be insured. Yet, all of the "good" benefits hang in a precarious balance of job security. As an aerospace engineer I've recently watched as a significant portion of my life's work went into the trash bin of military politics with the demise of the RAH-66 Comanche. It was to be an "all American" manufactured aircraft, now it is just so much history.

Adding insult to injury, my employer has an insurance company monitor sick time, they affix an amount of time for each type of surgery: they say five weeks recovery time for my operation, the doctor says ten. I had to get written permission from the insurance company to be out seven and a half weeks, well short of what the surgeon wanted, and well within the amount of sick days I've earned. The reason? The high cost of my benefits package. The package, earned through a quarter century of excellent service, has to be withdrawn over a period of five years until there are no paid benefits at all.

The corporation's position is clear: lean manufacturing and a desire to end paid benefits to maximize profit will force me into early retirement, and buy the services I perform from some other source. Not necessarily a foreign source, they do hire many domestic "job-shops," with far less efficiency and zero loyalty, to do the same work. Is it any wonder that I refuse to let go of the family landscape business? My employer wants to "rid" itself of the majority of workers and only maintain a cadre of supervisors, managers, and directors (these special employees will have paid benefits) and who will manage the out-sourced workers, be they professional or skilled labor. They have no plan to stop manufacturing American products, only to end the traditional American employer-employee relationship. In the not too distant future, paid health insurance and other such benefits will be a thing of the past, and the wonderful era of the American worker, like the "Made In America" product, will eventually also be a thing of the past. ....

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grinder
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2004-03-21          80544


Abbeywoods
I think your letter sums it up! ....

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Peters
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2004-03-22          80766


I think it interesting that the new movie Corporation makes the assertion that if we phycologically tested most corporations we would commit them.
As the Olympics are fast approaching suppose we had a rowing 8 team that had trained and prepared using USOG money and all the advantages that this country has to offer. Then just before their performance at the Olympics 4 of the team members went to asia, gained citizenship of China, and proceeded to win the Olympic gold metal with their new team. What would most Americans think of these members?
Despite this being clearly immoral, most of us think such acts are perfectly alright for corporations. It happens all the time. Business is business.
I think we just had a little wake up call with Enron, Tyco and others. ....

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Chief
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2004-03-22          80771


Good point Eric! Only I think this is indicative of our society in general these days. Pretty sad. ....

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beagle
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2004-03-22          80785


Without taking a party line, we suffer from a lack of cohesive leadership, both at the corporate and government levels. In a free society and market economy, forces are going to constantly change the make-up of the economic machine. We went from an agricultural economy to a manufacturing economy, and are now moving towards a technology based economy. It's the management of change that takes leadership at all levels. Without proper leadership, agendas get confused and personal greed gets in the way of morale decision making. Strong leadership with a clear vision of where we are heading, with solid achievable goals, sets a pathway for the future. Change is inevitable, but must be managed. Moving away from a manufacturing based economy doesn't have to be a bad thing, we just need to all be on the same mission for where we are headed next. ....

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kwschumm
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2004-03-22          80786


The problem is we're now moving away from a technology based society with nothing to replace it. Well, maybe marketing. ....

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Peters
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2004-03-22          80789


Dr. David Suzuki makes the arguement that the main source for real change in society is technology. If you think about it technology is the major source for change in our dayly lives. Let's face it 20 years ago I might have been on the internet but it wasn't at home on my own personal computer and only covered text or files. Only other researchers were on the system so you discussion was limited.
If you give people a test in technology guess who scores dead last, small business men and lawyers. Who do we elect into positions of authority to manage the country?
If we are filling the houses of government with the wrong people can we expect capable government? We need a mix that represents the people and capable of making good decisions, but send a monolithic element. The public is so feed up that any crediable person outside the mold will be elected. Look at the recent governor races in California or Minnisota. ....

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grinder
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2004-03-23          80794


And I didn't think anyone would respond to this post! ....

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TomG
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2004-03-23          80810


Don't know what to say but it seems to me that there is very coherent leadership at present in both public and private sectors. That leadership seems to be doing a bang up job of supporting the corporate person and all that entails. I'd forget about much moral and ethical restraint or societal and national loyalties because pursuit of profit is everything.

In economic growth, someone or something always is exploited and has to be. I'd just get used to the idea that it's the turn of the N.A. ordinary person to suffer the exploitation for what ever is being built and for whoever eventually benefits. Workers are just production factors and commodities, so forget about nice nice. Most of us will be bled, betrayed and bamboozled as fodder for whatever the future holds.

We may not have much choice about bled and betrayed but we can choose bamboozled or not and we can learn to survive the rage that the exploited always suffer. We can learn who are friends are and maybe government can again instill a measure of restraint on corporate excesses. Maybe the future will prove worth it but good questions might be 'What is being built, who benefits and who are our friends?

Societies have tolerated excesses to carve modern industrial societies from wildernesses and they also have built depraved empires and medieval aristocracies. For myself I don't feel like suffering much exploitation to build several of those futures. Why is it that when politicians are so widely believe to be corrupt and act in their own interests do we expect that they'll take care of ours? Why when CEO's are widely believed to be greedy crooks do we expect fairness. Why is it that the economy will collapse unless CEO's make an average of 110 times that of their workers but we import luxury cars from strong economies where the ratio is more like 15 times. As I said we have a choice of bamboozled or not. ....

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yooperpete
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2004-03-23          80811


I think we are working on something much worse than the depression. I can't see any way of stopping it. The economy is this big machine that keeps on going with little change and effect from outside interference. We would rather blame someone (the President) than really attempt to fix the problem. The people with their attitudes and purchasing habits are the route cause of the problem. ....

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Peters
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2004-03-23          80814


I agree people's lack of information is part of the problem. We all remember when people slammed Walmart for being a proveyer of Chinese goods. Walmat responded with a made in America program of advertisement. After the pressure had passed it was business as usual.
Their latest add talks of reclaiming a business district in a town. In this area they have left one derelick building in each town that has a Walmat, moving to a new structure as the business grew.
Social conscience as long as the heat is on or the advertisements are not effective.
The news media in this country is controlled by large corporations. Their goal like all the other companies is greed. How then should we view the media? Why is it trusted at all? ....

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yooperpete
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2004-03-23          80820


I'm anti-Walmart. Walmart is trying to build a store in Tawas Michigan. They have talked with the City council and have asked for tax rebates and other concessions for Tawas to have the priviledge of Walmart's presence. They will add low paying jobs to the area. We know that all of the other local businesses pay tax committments and attempt to pay their employees a decent wage. The little guys will go out of business, while the experieced employees can then go to Walmart and work for a lesser wage. The community overall is worse off with its tax base but would have a nice looking building.

Businesses like K-mart that are 15 miles away and other small businesses 20-30 miles away will suffer. But that is progress and the benefits of purchasing from a Fortune 500 company. ....

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Peters
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2004-03-23          80844


Pete;
Don't look too close at the building. As with all Wally World products it is not all that it is cracked up to be. Ceco builds them one town over. I worked on the roofing for a time. Not exactly build to last. ....

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Abbeywoods
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2004-03-23          80845


Everyone who responded here has a valid point. Money drives technology as much as technology advances society. Many American's who think of the man who owns a tractor, thinks of that man as a stereotype. Perhaps, at best, a hayseed, lacking in intellect and earning his pay through drudgery. As those who posted here prove, that image is false. I am proud to tell my friends about this site because of the depth of the discourse, and the quality of the people who share this forum.

Education of the buying public will, I am afraid, come too late. So long as the products that are sub-standard, shoddy, ill-fitting, or just plain wrong continue to be purchased in sufficient quanities, the cycle will continue.

The suffering brought home by the events of Setember 11, 2001, should have been sufficient to awaken America's resolve. But it has not. ENRON, and the others that failed, should have been sufficient to put into motion the wheel of change. That has not happened to any great extent that I am aware of. So the public keeps on spending that shrinking paycheck on, well, for lack of a better word, garbage.

It is always dangerous to speak for others, however, the others I am speaking for now have gone on record in this forum as being dollar wise, acutely aware of the work required to earn a day's pay, and how easy it is to lose that pay if not careful. Our fellow North American's included, it is the person who wants to be an educated buyer, a person who wants to be efficient in work, a person who want's to be safe, that is the person who comes here. A far more enlightened bunch than the porker filling up on super-size meals or the latte slurping narcisus who thinks freedom is free for the taking.

I'd much rather spend my time on a tractor, or talking to you guys, then spend a night at Planet Hollywood. You guys are for real! ....

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Mecheng
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2004-04-01          81800


Have to agree we are moving away from technology base. Every third world country in Asia is vying for "high Tech". We will not be serviced based either those jobs are going to India. I can't wait until I get a hire a lawyer from India or be treated by Chinese doctor at mucho savings!
We are still by far the worlds largest exporter!! Jobs and technology that is. Damn the politican brave enough to do something about it. ....

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jeff r
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2004-04-05          82225


Grinder is correct and wins a prize. There is NOBODY on this board regardless of what they do for a living or how much they make that can compete with 2.00 per hour labor to make any product or service he is told to make. The last time that this issue was brought up is was called slavery and caused the US Civil War. On the other hand, when you go to Wal-Mart how much of that China produced "low priced" stuff do you buy thinking you got a good deal???? We ALL want the lowest price on products and services till we lose our job to somebody willing to do the job for less $$$$$

Jobs lost to cheap foriegn competition is NEVER the problem till it happens to YOUR job right???????


THe linked article has MUCH truth to it. In a technology/machine based market the dumbest person is the person pushing the buttons and doing the low skill stuff. Give me 2 million dollars, a couple of presses, some packing machines and some 1.00 per hour labor and I will be in the oil filter business OVERNIGHT making an oil filter equal to or better than a 26.00 per hour UAW AC branded made oil filter. IT doesn't take to much smarts to figure out this problem. ....

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kwschumm
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2004-04-05          82227


I read a news article a few months back about a guy who visited China to tour some manufacturing plants there. One plant manager told him that they were going to automate their assembly lines because the Chinese labor was costing too much money! ....

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jeff r
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2004-04-05          82232


YooperPete,

Tawas hasn't had any good jobs in 25 years and probably never did. So in this case some 7.00 to 9.00 dollar Wal-mart jobs are a helluva lot better than the NO jobs that TAWAS has now!!!!! Walmart is good because it makes the "old money" local people quit overcharging for the identical things that wal-Mart sells cheaper. I will guess that the total wealth of private enterprise in Tawas Michigan and Iosco county is held by less than 75 people. As long as these 75 rich people could charge for goods and services with little close competition anything they felt like .....ALL was GOOd. When competition comes to town the good "GOOD OL BOY NETWORK" high priced monopoly has been broken. I got no tears for local greedy merchants of Tawas Michigan. Only thing that was worse was up US 23 to Oscoda where the local merchants charged obhorrent prices to the Air Force at Wurtsmith AFB before the goverment shut it down.

My point here is simple. When you are the one charging the high price for overpriced products to put money in your pocket Wal-Mart is a curse. When you shell out your hard earned dollar to pay too much for a given product and WAL-MArt offers the same product at a lower price...WAL-MART is a blessing. Show me who is doing the complaining and I will show you why. ....

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jeff r
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2004-04-05          82238


Abbeywoods,

Sorry to hear about your back surgery. From my perspective the RH 66 commanche helicopter was a taxpayer waste of money. This stealth helicopter has been in development since the early 1980's and to date after 20 plus years NOT one RA 66 has or will be delivered to the US Armed Forces till the projected year 2008??????? What good is military hardware if it takes 25 years to get to the battlefield. If this length was acceptable I would writing this in German or Japanese since we would have never got weapons systems to the front lines with the speed of the Commanche program!!!! I think that commanche program was a Boeing/General Dynamics program and they milked it for ALL it was worth. A defense contractor NEVER wants to see his weapons program come to an end and unfortunatley the people who work for the contractor suffer when they lose their jobs. This is the human cost of rich people getting richer by having the US taxpayer pay for an undelivered weapons system that lasted 25 years. ....

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grinder
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2004-04-06          82281


Jeff
I can appreciate your comments, but(IMO)I don't think one can compare hourly rates from two countries as different as China
and the US. Standard of living and costs of living are not
the same.
When we are all playing by the same rules is when we will have fair and free trade.
Personally I go to Home Chepo and Wally -World as few times
as I can get by with.
I spend about $5-10,000 a month at our local lumberyard from
my small remodeling business. I could save probably 10-20%
going to Home Depot but I don't. Here's why, I go to a family owned business(50 yrs old),they have 250 Maine employees, full time help 40 + hrs, with full benny's.
Many of these people I know. Their kids socialize with mine,
they are in my wifes girl scouts.They are on the fire and rescue. I think you get my point.
Maybe some would call me stupid, But on a slow day in the middle of the Winter
when I pull in and spend a couple of thousand on materials there are people who genuinely appreciate it.


....

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hardwood
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2004-04-06          82282


Did'nt want to get into the Wally world, Home Depot debate, but I completely agree with Grinder. As an example just yesterday, they had orderd some steel for a new building for me before the price rise. It's been there for a month now, but the carpenters have had a delay. I told the manager that I'd be glad to pay him for it now and take delivery when we're ready. His response, "Not a problem, the price is locked in, we don't like to deliver till it's needed for fear of damage, pay for it when you get it.". Try that at Home Depot. Frabk. ....

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Murf
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2004-04-06          82290


Another big part of the problem (strictly IMHO) is what the farming community up here calls the "not me" syndrome. It's kind of a twist on the "not in my backyard" syndrome.

Large farms, even highly mechanised ones like my family's, still need a group of labourers, there's just no getting around it. There will always be physical labour required to farm, especially certain types of crops.

In our area there is a big problem, too many young adults getting into trouble because they are unemployed and have nothing else to do but hang around.

Meanwhile the farms in our area are forced to bring in Mexicans and Jamaicans to work as labourers on our farms. Why, because the local kids would rather be unemployed than 'stoop' to that kind of work. This is not really difficult work, just a hard's days work, physical labour.

Now the problem is a there is a group, recently organized, who are trying to pressure the Gov. to stop allowing immigrant workers because they are 'stealing' jobs. The farmers of course responded by saying 'We have jobs available, nobody wants them.'

Finally a judge jumped in with both feet, in sentencing a young man for stealing a truck from a farm and taking it for a joy-ride he sentenced the man to either one year in jail, or 5 years probation conditional on his getting a keeping a job as a farm employee (read labourer) for the 5 years. His parents blew a gasket and called the judge's sentence discriminatory since it forced their son into slavery!! Now I fail to see how a job paying the same wage everybody else gets constitutes slavery, let alone a bad thing considering the alternative is JAIL TIME. Nevertheless, the parents hired a big-time lawyer who is appealing the sentence.

The more I read about things like that, the more I like my dog.

Best of luck. ....

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yooperpete
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2004-04-06          82295


Jeff:
I don't share your love for Wally world, its Chinese products and the cliental it draws. Do you know how to identify a Walmart parking lot? You can tell by the piles of cigarettes dumped out from car ashtrays, baby diapers and expended motor oil cans strewn over the parking area nearest the entrances as well as vehicle parts that have fallen off these wealthy patrons while they have come and gone.

All I know about Burton, MI is its known for it strip joints along Dort Highway at the edge of Flint(armpit of the world). That's all that is left except for auto salvage companies since the car companies have all but pulled out of town. I bet you would like it if Nathan Jay's, DE-JA-VU, the Velvet Club, etc. got all Chinese dancers, that way the lap dances would be cheaper. ....

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Abbeywoods
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2004-04-06          82298


Dear JeffR, how true. When I started on the program, Light Helicopter Experimental (LHX) in 1981, the projected quantities were for 10,000 single pilot scout gunships and 7000 min-utility (like Black Hawk only all composite and smaller). The cold war was still raging and Europe expected that the Red Hordes would be pouring through the Fulda Gap by the mid 90's. When the Soviet Union fell, the military's objectives and planning changed immensely. A good thing because the Mission Equipment Package (MEP) was never fully up to expectations, that is why the aircraft grew to tandem seating to share the workload. The utility aircraft was dropped outright. As you pointed out, the program dragged on and on anyway. Some of this was due to the Army, a lot due to Sikorsky, and some due to our State political agenda who truly desired to keep workers employed.

The aircraft, as it is today is a remarkable milestone in aviation history, and however advanced it may be, it is still a reflection of the Cold War. There is no doubt that it would have value on the battlefield, but at a cost the tax payer can barely afford. That price tag is enormous, and the work is still under development until the contract runs out late this fall. The existing aircraft will no doubt fly as technology demostrators destined for static display in Ft. Rucker's aviation museum. Another factor which led to the Army's about was are the lessons from our fighting in Somalia which focused attention on the frailty of even the most robust of helicopters, the UH-60L, and the ease with which a single soldier armed with an rpg could defeat it.

Be that as it may, the manufacturing segment of industry, especially in America, is determined to reduce its reliance on domestic labor. This may be a natural evolution of business, it is in my opinion, a horrible error. While the profit margin may widen making the sharholder happy, sooner or later, the circle will close because the consumer will no longer be in a position to make a purchase. Is it so hard to see that the consumer is also the worker who builds the product, be it tractors, cars, aircraft or whatever? A service based economy is doomed to failure. Period.

Somewhere in time, those who lead our industry must realize that slow capital growth will win in time, over the get-rich-quick mentality aberrations like the "Dot Coms," and when that happens maybe we will have financial equilibrium. The world stock market hangs in a precarious balance that can be easily tipped over the edge by a small handful of suicidal holymen. But before equilibrium can happen, things will have to get much worse. What we are seeing, and what you all have witnessed, is a transformation of culture which will eventually end in the need for this nation to have a second chance. Hopefully, we will get it right this time. ....

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jeff r
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2004-04-06          82342


grinder,

You are absolutely correct , we can't compare Chiinese standards of living to ANY USA standard of living. I will tell you why.

One of the companies I fix Rockewell machines has a Quality manager who has a mother who returned to her native China to live after a 5 year stay is Michigan. I asked Leon ( LMAO ..LEON ..good chinese name heh?) how the Chinese lived in his mother's town of 16,000 located about 3 hours from Bejing the nations capitol.

This is what he told me. Leon's mother's town is like living in the 1920s USA. 90% of the people have outhouses for sanitation. 50% of the houses are electrified but with low amp services that can's run much other than TVs and lightbulbs. Telehone service is in the town "square" where a half dozen or so old "operator assisted " phones are available for community use. Running water is a hand operated pitcher pump located in the kitchen. 98% of the house have no central heat and are heated by stoves burning mostly coal with some wood. A full time 48 hour job is "SHARED" by sometimes 6 or more people working different days. The roads are rarely paved and people raise a special breed of hairless dog for human consumption.

Want me to go on?? I dont know about you folks....but for Americans to revert to this lifestyle in order to earn a meager living in today's world I would rather go to war.
....

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jeff r
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2004-04-06          82344


Whoa there YOOPERPETE,

First of all, you need to check addesses before you slam Burton, Michigan. Those strip joints are entirely located in the City of FLINT.

Secondly, I would much rather have a working society that can afford the lap dances at those establishments than the welfare-sucking-live-in the woods-low rents that live in the U.P. and Northern lower Michigan. The highest poverty, unemployment, and welfare costs are ALWAYS in Northern Michigan and the UP countiesbecuase there are NO jobs that pay a living wage up in the woods unless you are a school teacher, public servant, utilities worker, or scheming politiician. Retirees that went north do not count.

When Wal-mart comes to Tawas Michigan the people will line up to apply in droves. Since when is that soooooo wrong? ....

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beagle
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2004-04-06          82349


I'm trying to follow along with the discussion, but am having some geographical difficulties. Is there another Tawas in the U-P, or are we talking about the Tawas on Lake Huron. Is Yooperpete talking about a Tawas in the U-P, or the one under the bridge.

Early on in this dicussion, I commented on the need for leadership and vision in this country to establish, and constantly re-establish, priorities for economic and social growth. Since change is inevitable, it needs to be managed as an opportunity, not a threat. America's strength is in it's potential for leadership, not from elected officials or boardroom CEO's, but from all of us. If we can break the paradigms of blame, understand that we all in some way contribute to the need for change, we will begin to accept personel responsibilty to participate in managing it. Leadership does start at the top, but the best managed companies are the one's that manage themselves through participative invlovement. That means accepting that you have the ability to control and decide, and learn from the consequenses. ....

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2004-04-06          82352


The world economy is inevitable. It is too late. We will have a lower "relative" standard of living compared to other nations. Our strength has been in our farms and our natural resources and universities. People from other nations still come to universities in the US to be trained. The only way we can maintain a position of strength is to maintain leadership in our universities.

My daughter is in engineering at Buffalo. Her competition is mainly from foreign students. I was in Agricultural Economics at Penn State. It is entirely a foreign program now. All the "American" kids get their MBAs and go to Wall Street - that is where the money is. Can you blame them? My brother-in-law is a PE. He recommends that you don't go into engineering. You make more money in other fields. If you are at IBM where I work - that fastest rise to power and money is through finance and sales.

What we have to do is prepare our kids for the future. My son tells me he wants to be a programmer. I tell him "No -you want to be a computer scientist - and you have to be the best so that your job isn't the one that is outsourced". Also - although I am a staunch republican - we need universal health care so that people who lose jobs in this new economy are treated like humans. We all like to think everyone should pay their own way - but I know even in my family there are people who just can't measure up or compete in this new brutal reality.





....

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grinder
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2004-04-07          82361


Jeff
Wait a second, I hear you saying you love the Wally World
and resent the Chinese standard of living? You can't have it both ways.
Where do you think these cheap prices come from? They come
from someone elses misery!!!
Abbeywoods is right it will come full circle. Maybe it has started, I saw
a Lou Dobb's piece that maybe the saving's by moving overseas isn't worth
it, even with the big Bush tax break for doing so.

Murf,
Sounds as if those kids don't know how or have to work.
It takes money to hang around and do nothing. Kid's are a
product of their enviroment.
If my six year old want's something extra(other than my normal spoiling)
she has to do a little chore.


Ncrunch
Are you saying you are Teaching your kids the fastest way to "Power and Money"?

End of Rant! I have to go to work.









....

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TomG
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2004-04-07          82374


One theory of the industrial revolution is that Spain (which was the western empire of the time) discovered the new world and gold along with it. The Spanish found it convenient to exchange gold for English manufactured goods. The English has a convenient supply of low-cost labour (former surfs who lost feudal rights to land through the 'enclosures'). The English also were forced to 'discover coal' since they cut down all their forests making charcoal to manufacturer armour for all those wars.

The industrial revolution and eventual empire happened in England and Spain was unable to defend its New World supply lines. A bunch of undeserving prospered and a bunch of undeserving died. Both empires eventually went to well-deserved ends. Perhaps the economy in Spain and society in Britain still bear the scars. Sound like anything happening today? ....

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ncrunch32
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2004-04-07          82375


Grinder, of course I tell my kids that money is important. But I also tell them they should pick a career that they will like. If lots of money is all they want - then they should go into finance or sales. If they want less money and more fulfillment they should go into other professions.
Neither of my kids seem to be choosing finance or sales as a career.

I see lots of MBAs strewn along the path at IBM. There are too many of them. Our executives think, live, breathe IBM every day including saturday and sunday. They have no other life. They are obsessed with results. They make a fortune but they are expected to live for IBM. I would not want that lifestyle for myself.

On the other hand, the reason IBM turned around and is doing well is because of this manic obsession by our executives and our change in culture (which is much tougher on the employee). Without these obsessed sales and financial people this turnaround would not have been possible. And every person in the US who has stock in IBM expects this kind of performance so that they can retire someday. ....

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yooperpete
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2004-04-07          82376


Sorry Jeff, I had a bad day.
1. Some people do agree with me about Wallyworld. Today CNN has a nice story about WALMART with a California ballot rejecting their attempts to slip the rules under the carpet just for them.
2. If those joints don't have a Burton address, they are less than a mile from having one. Doesn't Tiger's Auto salvage yard have a Burton address?
3. Most of Northern Lower Michigan and the U.P. are undeveloped areas. They do not have many jobs available and mostly survive on the Tourist industry or service jobs. Hello, that is the problem and the entire country is heading that way. Yes, allot of locals are on welfare and so will we be if this continues. Those areas that are not yet developed are beautiful and I can still go hunting and fishing and cut my own firewood for heat if it gets that bad. On the west side, Traverse City has gotten developed. Land prices are outrageous, the cost of living has soared and many businesses have moved there. The working class people say, "half the pay for a view of the Bay". The view is so nice that many have moved there and are willing to work for less to get away from the big cities.

P.S. I'm not a U.P. resident, but visit as often as I can. My issue today is the nets in Saginaw Bay; they're getting all the 8-10" perch, and leaving nothing for fishermen like me. I pay lots of taxes, support who knows how many families on welfare and need to battle everyday to keep my business alive. The manufacturing industry in this country is going just like the textiles, steel, cowboys, horses and steam locomotives. Where is it all going? ....

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Peters
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2004-04-07          82395


The chicago boys have wrecked more than one country with their policies. For all the talk most American have no idea what has happened in other countries let alone what the government has done. In Chile the second nine eleven came as no suprise. Most of us have no idea why to them it was a second nine eleven. Until we do and keep tabs on what is done our name, then there definately will be another. ....

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Murf
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2004-04-07          82405


Abbeywoods, you point is well made, however, I would add one small point to what you said.

I doubt that any of the European Union countries will lift a finger to help either.

In fact despite was has been said, and likely will be said again, there will likely only be one country of consequense which will once again stand shoulder-to-shoulder with America in the aftermath.

Canada.

....

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Abbeywoods
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2004-04-07          82407


Hi Murph, this is Ted, a man with a long memory, and a student of history. It was Canada that joined America to fight the horrors of two World Wars. It was Canada that joined the fight against communisim in Korea. It was Canada that remained vigilant and helped protect our northern flank during the long Cold War. Despite the ignorance and arrogance of many an American, that Canada was only safe harbor for desserters and draft dodgers, it was Canada (and Austrailia) who joined the battles of Viet Nam - as proof of Canada's sacrifice, the North Wall Canadian Viet Nam War Memorial stands as a tribute.

It is Canada today that has opened a dialog between Viet Nam and the United States, when American diplomacy failed. It was Canada that stepped immediately up to the order of the day after 9/11 to help America in every way possible: Air Combat Patrols, RCMP Intelligence, border crossing security, and rescue and relief efforts. It was also Canada to our aid once again, when America and our allies sought to oust Sadam, even at the cost of Her son's lives to "friendly fire."

Canada's blood runs through our veins, Her blood spilled on common ground in common causes, shoulder to shoulder with America. Our debt to Canada will never be fully paid, but the kind of recognition for her friendship, care, and bravery, that I show here, is a start. God Bless Canada! ....

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grinder
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2004-04-07          82416


Ncrunch
You are certainly the one who knows what's best for your children,you got them this far.
I guess it was the money and power comment that got me going. My apologies if I offended you.
I may be foolish but I believe a person can still make a
great living doing what they like. Have seen to many
give there life to a company only to get the heave hoe at 55.
For me its over at 3pm on friday, sure I could work all weekend, and use too! Now Its off to camp. It will all be there Mon. morn.

And Prince Edward Island is The Most Beautiful place in Canada!! With the people to match.
....

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ncrunch32
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2004-04-08          82481


Grinder, no offense taken. I enjoy honest open exchange of opinions and ideas. ....

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Murf
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2004-04-08          82484


Ted (Abbeywoods), thank you for your kind words, unfortunately few people, and not just in the US now just how much our two countries are intertwined in mutual defence.

Nor do very many know the level of military co-operation, both from the point of having been key in supplying the US & it's allies with aircraft (many of which were also built here) staged through our air base at Goose Bay Labrador which enabled the winning of WWII, to the supply through British Columbia of men & material to avoid a Japanese invasion through Alaska.

Even fewer people know just how many Canadians served IN the American forces, my father and I among them. In fact to this day there are a great many Canadians serving with & for the United states in mutual support & defence.

It is a great disappointment when I here comments slurring Canada for not doing more to support the states, and a great source of pride when we are recognized and thanked for making an un-selfish contribution.

I sincerely thank you,

the other Ted (Murf). ....

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Abbeywoods
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2004-04-08          82501


Amen, and you are welcome, always,

Teddy ....

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jeff r
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2004-04-17          83391


So if cheap prices come from somebody's elses misery, I sure as hell am NOT going to start a campaign to pay higher prices to the local rich people to buy the same product for a higher price than WAl-Mart. That is what you call left wing liberal STUPIDITY. We are talking about Tawas,Michiagn on Lake Huron. If stupid is as stupid does why don't we tell all those real estate developers to start selling Lake Huron frontage for condo development for 50 dollars a frontage foot instead of 1000. OH NO.....That wouldn't be right would it??? It all in the view of "who's ox is being gored"?

I know a guy who is 70 plus years old and had a lake front place on Lake Huron he bought the early 1950s and paid 600 bucks for 200 foot of prime frontage. He has for years bitched and moaned about the high lake front property taxes that the goverment forced him to pay for his place. This SOB held out for 750,000 buckeroos and wouldn't take a dime less and then had the unmitigated gall to say Wal-Mart didn't need to open a store in Tawas to hurt the local merchant. Then the SOB bragged and said I sure screwed the goverment I got 750,000 and never came close to paying the property based on what the SEV value was. OHHHHH MANNNN".......the hypocricy of the "Great Depression" generation. ....

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grinder
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2004-04-17          83399


Jeff
I think it all comes down to if your" buying or selling"? ....

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2004-04-17          83403


Grinder,

You are 152% correct and win the prize. It also comes down to "I got my money now you go get yours while you pay more taxes to pay my medical bills". I have NEVER met a retired person who didn't think the goverment should pay 100% of his medical bills and drugs so people would not have to pay out of their own fat rich check books.


For example. I have a friend of mine's 102 year old grandmother just got a hip replacement paid for 100% by my tax dollars without her ever touching her 1.6 million checkbook dollars she got for selling some road right of way property to the goverment. I don't work my butt off to pay social security taxes for other rich people's medical bills. Did you ever wonder why a 102 year old EVEN NEEDS a new hip anyway???? If people in my age group bitch, we are called insensitive and compared to the money grubbing Republicans. There is no political party, when you see you hard earned wages going to somebody else, knowing that you will never see any benefits. The goverment pays for these expenses because the Liberal democratic Senators and congressman in Michigan, that are elected to office, wouldn't have 150,000 per year jobs. So they take my SS dollar and pay off the "old folks" medical bills and drugs to get their votes. I will never see any benefits like the ones the old folks are getting today because there won't be enought people working and paying taxes to pay my medical bills. That is FACT.

The only difference between a campaign contribution and a bribe is one happens AFTER the election. OLd people America is being bribed with overgenerous medical benefits. I wonder if my tax dollar is being used for Viagra??? Probably is!!!! The taxpayer is responsible for the old men's woody. ....

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grinder
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2004-04-17          83426


Jeff
Just to wind you up a little more,
You realize that there is no SS trust
fund right? It is a"Lockbox" full of IOU's.

....

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2004-04-17          83446


Yup. I know that....but last I heard the goverment has never bounced a check. ....

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2004-04-17          83449


To touch on another subject, how many people you know who are on SS disability who are as normal as you and me and are less than 60....what a BIG joke? This "bad back crap" has got to end. I know a person right now who shops till she drops on a SS 100% disabilty of 2000 per month. While I work my ass off to pay for these "disabled" SOB's. But good ol jeffy is brutal and insensative if he calls out the people who are able bodied and freeload off the SS system. What a crock of left wing liberal socialist crap. ....

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oneace
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2004-04-17          83451


yeah i hear you im 23 years old by the time i get to "retierment age" they will have raised it to 80 years old and this 401k is a bunch of crap too. you pay in all that money what if the bottom foalls out of the stock market again and we go back in to the depretion area again well there goes all your money. And dont even get me started an how much i have to pay for health insurance that tries to denie every claim that i put in and make me have to pay my lawyer $150 a pop just to send them a letter. ....

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2004-04-17          83455


Oneace and JeffR, as conservative as I am on other matters, it is high time for universal health care. I probably will be able to take care of me and my wife someday - but in this new brutal economy - there is a good deal of luck of the draw as to who survives and who doesn't. It has nothing to do with who is willing to work. Everyone has to be treated with respect and dignity - and if the corporate world has dished off this responsibility - then the government has to pick it up.

....

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2004-04-17          83467


i agree. have you ever gone to the doctor with out health insurance and gotten the bill. at my doctor an office visit is 60 you sit in the waiting room for 45 mins after your sceduled appointment then the doc. rushes you out he is getting an average of 240 an hour i'm not even going to start on an er visit, i'll say this you get three different biss for the same thing what the h--l is up with that. you have to take out a second morgage to pay your med bills. and then you have these lazy no respect never worked a day in there life suing every body for stupid s--t. i bust my ass every day and get busted up like i said im 23 and my hands are so scered up from turning wrenches.... but i like what i do but i have to pay 150 per week for ins. that never pays with out threat of a law suit. ....

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oneace
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2004-04-17          83469


But i will say this at least i do have a job. and not laid off because of some money hungy corp. moving to some over seas country so they can get away with paying some one .50 an hour . ....

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AV8R
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2004-04-17          83470


Wait untill you need a ride in an ambulance or heaven forbid the medi-copter. If you know the price before-hand you'd ask to be left for dead on the side of the highway! ....

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2004-04-17          83471


and if the corporate world has dished off this responsibility - then the government has to pick it up.



Corporate world???? So I get the to pay 40k for an overpriced pick-up truck so the UAW gets's their health care paid 100% then what is left of my paycheck I get to pay for the lazy non working SS retirees on 43 medications with free hip replace ments, organ transplants and viagra pills???? I will treat anybody with dignity and respect but pleeeeees kiss me when you rape my paycheck to pay your medical bills while you sit on your FAT check book and bitch and moan what a tough time you are having. You won't pay for my pick-up truck so why do I have to pay your medical bills???? Where I live the vast majority of brainwashed people would vote against Jesus Christ running as a Republican. As long as a liberal democrat is promising "free stuff" from the goverment the REAL taxpayers that are 20 years from retirement have NO chance.

Oneace......I hate to be the bearer of bad news but YOUR age group WILL NEVER retire. Anybody that tells you different is LYING to you. You will not retire EVER because they have nobody to tax to pay for all the freeloaders getting free services that never paid in the sysytem to begin with. Today it takes 4 working people making in excess of 40k to support 1 person on SS disabilty or retirement. When the baby boom generation gets close to retirement the number will go to 8 people. Sorry to inform you but there won't be enought people working to pay the baby booms generation's medical bills. You are 23 years old and you are doomed to working all your live unless you hit the lottery. By the time you figure out who lied to you, that politician will be relaxing on the beach with a 125k income and the best medical benefits the US taxpayer can afford since these lying Congressmen and Senators DO NOT HAVE TO RELY ON SS becuase they are not on that system.

There is nothing that US Michigan Senators Carl Levin and Debbie Stabenow could EVER have done in their working lives that could ever compare with the wages and benefits of being the lying SOB's that they are now!!!! If you see a politician moving his lips ....he is LYING TO YOU.
An elected official's ONLY job is to tell you what you want to hear, blame the failures of society on the opposite political party, and get his pension and perks then get the hell out of office.
....

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2004-04-17          83473


oh belive me i know that retirement is not going to happen but what can i do but bend over grab my ankles and let them all get me in the ass. im not so much worried about my self as i am about my 3 year old daughter and all the other childern that are going to have to deal with this shit. i predict in 50 years or less this country will be as poor as ethiopina. there there is nothing to do about it because the nature of most americans is now being as lazy as possible sue every body they can so there fat over wieght ass can sit on the couch and watch opra ansd all the other over paid gready no real skill ass holes on the tv. ....

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ncrunch32
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 762 Kingston, NY
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2004-04-18          83476


Jeff R, I don't bitch and moan about the taxes I pay. And I pay plenty. I am one of those people that probably doesn't need government help. However, I still think we need universal health care and I am willing to donate my tax dollars to those with bad luck, who can't work, who's jobs are outsourced.

I know there are plenty of people who don't want to work, but I know also that in these times there are more that want to work or just can't compete. Not every person has the skill level to compete. Ever been on a jury in this country? I've been on two. One murder case, one civil. Have you met and talked with people in this country? Many people will not be able to compete with the Indians, the Koreans, the Japanese.

Do you think we in the US have a monopoly on the best ideas and intelligence in the world? Get ready, there will be more unemployment before we are done. Are we in the US all on the same team? If so, why woudn't we all want to take care of everyone on the team even though we aren't all playing in the game? ....

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jeff r
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 428 burton. michigan
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2004-04-18          83477


Universal health???? HEY,we have that already. When was the last time you read or heard about somebody getting turned away at a hospital emergency room because he has no insurance or didn't have any money?????? You think the gang bangering thugs are paying for their critical care gunshot wounds or the birthing of fatherless crack kids when they go to the emergency room??? FAT CHANCE DUDE!!!!! What you propose is SOCIALISM. I don't get up in the morning to pay someone elses bills because they are too stupid, lazy, down on there luck or any other lame liberal excuse you have in mind. Inner city hospitals are a open banks giving away free health care to jackasses who have one hand in my pocket and another holding knife to my my throat. Do you know who pays for free medical care for the idiots??? The people who pay too much for health insurance already that's who .....namely YOU AND ME. The hospital charges many more dollars to my insurance company to subsidize the expenses of the poor and stupid. If you want to pay your hard earned dollars to the jerks and jackasses that's your business, but for me I want to pay MY bills NOT other peoples's bills. If that makes me sound uncaring then I must be uncaring because the last time I went to the gas station nobody paid my gas bill let alone ANY of my other expenses. ....

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Chief
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 4292 Southwest MiddleTennessee
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2004-04-18          83479


I have watched this thread for several weeks and I think many of you have reluctantly arrived at the conclusion but just refuse to accept that there is no free lunch. It is NOT the government's job or responsibility to provide medical care. For nearly 200 years this country has done without it. Deal with it. Health care IS a PERSONAL responsibility. I can see taking care of those who cannot meet that responsibility because to the unsual twists life can offer; but everyone CAN'T jump in the life boat. ....

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grinder
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 677 central Maine
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2004-04-18          83482


You are right Chief, but the for profit hospital's find it cheaper to add the cost of services for the uninsured to the insured as opposed to collecting it. Poor system for sure,but it is better than none.
This thread has gotten way off base,with my help as well.
The intention was a comment on where and why our jobs are
going.
I was hoping some more might pick up on a thought I was starting with Hardwood,and share some positive US company
stories of success.It seems easy to bitch and harder to look at the positive.
....

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ncrunch32
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 762 Kingston, NY
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2004-04-18          83494


Chief, I agree my idea smacks of socialism. My Canadian neighbor just left the US because we don't have universal health care or a free college system. He decided he had a better standard of living in Canada even with a lower salary.

Grinder, any thread this long on a thought provoking topic will meander - like a topic at any party. Great post! ....

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Peters
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 3034 Northern AL
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2004-04-18          83497


ncrunch32
Ok I started a new string.
....

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hardwood
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 3583 iowa
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2004-04-18          83504


Thank You! Frank. ....

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greyhorse
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 60
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2021-10-12          200741


I happened upon this very interesting thread. Here we are 17 years later. Where are we today on thises issues?

The UK has had high speed Rail since the 1980's going over 150 mph then. US nada.

If we implement high speed rail it would be made in China as they have the best rail stuff.

....

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