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Kubota B8200 after Hose and Fluid change no Hydraulics

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dfiletti
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 13 Philadelphia, PA
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2013-10-27          188205


Hey folks, my name is Dan and I am the owner of a old, but useful, kubota B8200HST 4WD. I continue to be amazed at what can be done with this compact tractor. It has a loader/ bucket on the front that has been very useful... This is until one of the old/ cracked hydraulic lines finally gave up the ghost. Thinking the tired machine could use a bit of restoration, I paid a local Amish Hydraulic company to replace all of the lines on the loader and drain and replace the hydraulic fluid, and put in a new filter.

Since then though, the loaded has operated VERY slowly, and has less strength. In fact, when cold, the bucket will not even lift off of the ground -actually the three point is ALSO slow. It takes 5-10 minutes to 'warm up' enough to lift up. As it's 'warming up', I notice that holding down the lift lever, and revving the motor will have the loader lift briefly then stop, but letting it 'rest' at idle for a second or two, then revving again, will have it lift briefly again before stopping again.

Once it's fully 'warm' it will lift steadily, but slowly, and it will shudder slightly as if there is air in the lines. The bucket is weak, and will not lift as much weight as it could before.

I know it has enough fluid. I have adjusted the directional value every which way and set it back to factory spec. There are no apparent leaks that I can tell. I disconnected/ reconnected the quick-connect lines. Still it's not right. The Amish guys were no help either.

So I ask if anyone here may have any ideas as to where to look. Is there any special trick for bleeding the air out of the system other than running the hydraulics through their ranges a few times? Is it possible that the Amish guys connected something wrong or overlooked a simple step?

I really hope someone here will have some useful input.

Thanks in advance for any and all help and advice you may have,

Dan



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Kubota B8200 after Hose and Fluid change no Hydraulics

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hardwood
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 3583 iowa
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2013-10-28          188208


Dan;

Welcome to the site, I hope we can help.
There are a lot of inferior fluids on the market being sold as meeting the tractors factory lubrication specs. There are also good high quality fluids sold by reputable manufactures, it can be hard to sort the good ones from the less than adequate.
My guess is that the Amish put an incorrect fluid and likely an incorrect filter in your tractor. The genuine Kubota fluids and filters will be more expensive than the "As good as" low cost products.
This is going to cost some bucks but my suggestion is to drain and flush your hydraulic system then replace the fluid and filter with a recommended Kubota product from a Kubota dealer.
This is a messy job, but nothing you can't handle yourself

Frank. ....

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Kubota B8200 after Hose and Fluid change no Hydraulics

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DennisCTB
Join Date: Nov 1998
Posts: 2644 NorthWest NJ
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2013-10-28          188209


I thought the Amish only used horses for farming? They do Kubota Tractor repair also, interesting!

I doubt the problem is this but you should never put anything but Kubota Super UDT Hydraulic fluid in your tractor.

I would stay away from the Amish and get the correct filters and fluids from a Kubota dealer and do it again unless you are absolutely positive they used the correct stuff. Do it yourself so you know it was done right if you are able

If the B8200 has power steering rotate full left then right a couple of times can help.


....

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Kubota B8200 after Hose and Fluid change no Hydraulics

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kthompson
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 5219 South Carolina
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2013-10-28          188212


I would begin by asking to see what fluid they used. I agree it sounds like fluid used is too thick. They may have used gear oil even and not hydraulic oil. If wrong fluid is use would replace filters and would also verify they used correct filters even if they used correct fluid. Anyone could have made a mistake by picking up a wrong filter or can of oil.

Dennis had the same thought on who did the repair. Understand they use mechanical milkers but thought that was about it. Then I really know little about them. I do doubt they make those electric heaters using particle board but hey saw it on tv so must be true. ....

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Kubota B8200 after Hose and Fluid change no Hydraulics

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hardwood
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 3583 iowa
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2013-10-28          188216


I think the biggest part the Amish play in building the heaters is to peel the "Made In China" stickers off the back.

Frank. ....

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Kubota B8200 after Hose and Fluid change no Hydraulics

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MHarryE
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 14 Northern Minnesota
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2013-10-29          188217


One possibility is the hydraulic pump suction line has a small air leak. Not sure what your line consists of (some suction lines are hose with clamps because there is no pressure) so it could be as simple as a clamp not tightened. If the filter is an inlet suction filter there is a possibility they replaced it with a filter having too fine filtration which is restricting flow. You mentioned the mechanics you had work on your tractor are hydraulics people. I am surprised they won't work with you on resolving the problem since it apparently it worked properly until the line failed. I assume them being Amish has no real affect on this other than they tend to be conscientious workers who pay attention to detail and are of a sect that does not reject modern day equipment or else they would not have been working on it. Did you return the tractor to them for diagnosis or just explain the problem and ask for suggestions? Might be worth a try. People from an Amish sect in Illinois were ones with whom we supplied prototype machinery every year for validation testing because they we could trust them to properly care for the equipment, service it properly, and provide us the feedback we needed so getting them involved - making it plain that you gave them a working tractor with a failed hydraulic line and you gave it back to me non-functional should get them concerned about helping you out. ....

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Kubota B8200 after Hose and Fluid change no Hydraulics

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gaspur
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 16 Elberton, Ga.
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2013-10-30          188235


Kubota uses Multi Grade Valvoline Trans untrack fluid. They also use Valvoline 15w40 motor oil. I use fluids from Wal Mart, which has worked for me for years . I use Mobile One 15w40 engine oil. ....

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Kubota B8200 after Hose and Fluid change no Hydraulics

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dfiletti
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 13 Philadelphia, PA
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2013-10-31          188238


Folks-

Thank you so very much for your generous input. I have talked with the guys at Georgetown Hydraulics (the Amish folks that did the original work). They reported back that the type of fluid they used was "Tractor Transmission Fluid -which should be the correct type for that tractor's hydraulics" -This, on top of the fact that they are Hydraulics specialists, leads me to think they did not make such a mistake. -Please let me know if you disagree. They are looking into the filter being incorrect, and will report back to me.

They did indicate that the pump may be the issue but I indicated I'd like to make sure that we exhaust all other possibilities (like checking for an intake leak -as was mentioned) before considering replacing the pump.

While we're on the subject, does anyone know how easy it is to replace the pump were it to come to that? It seems like it's easily accessible -right under the seat. Is it one of those fairly simple jobs or more (or much more) involved ones?

I'm fairly handy -I service my own cars and motorcycles, (oil/ brakes/ valves/ carbs etc -but not as far as engine tear-downs and transmission work) so I figures I would likely be able to tackle it, if the job were not too bad.

I do think I'll take it back to them for proper diagnosis though.

Thanks again!,

Dan ....

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Kubota B8200 after Hose and Fluid change no Hydraulics

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gaspur
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 16 Elberton, Ga.
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2013-11-01          188242


I BELIEVE IT IS DIFFICULT. ....

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Kubota B8200 after Hose and Fluid change no Hydraulics

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chuckles
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 77 Eastern PA
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2013-11-01          188243


My guess is that the problem is with the work done by the shop. Replacing hoses and fluids does not cause pump failure.

If you did not change the fluids and hoses yourself you will not want to tackle pump replacement.

....


Link:   Read this about fluid opinions

 
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Kubota B8200 after Hose and Fluid change no Hydraulics

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kthompson
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 5219 South Carolina
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2013-11-01          188244


Quote:
Originally Posted by chuckles | view 188243
My guess is that the problem is with the work done by the shop. Replacing hoses and fluids does not cause pump failure.If you did not change the fluids and hoses yourself you will not want to tackle pump replacement.



Unless they ran it without fluid in the system then they could have damaged the pump.

I am surprised they did not operate the tractor after changing the hoses and fluid. If for no other reason than to get the fluid filled to the proper level they would have had to run the hyd system to purge the air. Or did they measure the amount that drained out and just replaced it or have specs for the tractor. If they did not run the hyd system after changing hoses and fluid with filter and then checking to top off would find a different repair shop. I expect that on any filter and fluid change on any engine or equipment. Whether I do it or hired it done. kt ....

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dfiletti
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 13 Philadelphia, PA
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2013-11-01          188250


They DID operate the bucket to fill the lines once they were done. When I indicated that it was really slow, they said, 'yeah, we noticed that too'.

Lovely eh?

I think I'm going to take it back to them and have them 1) look for an air leak on the hydraulic intake side, 2) ensure the filter is the correct one 3) see if they can test the pump in some way.

Thanks again,

Dan ....

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DennisCTB
Join Date: Nov 1998
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2013-11-01          188251


I think you are being overly optimistic with this shop. They were given a simple hose replacement job, they knew their work was bad when they finished, but still gave it back to you when what they noticed was in the their line of work "Hydraulics".

You are are probably saying hey I went to them instead of a dealer to save money.... and heck I will make them do right ...

I think going back to them is the victory of optimism over experience just my 2 cents. Hope it works out for you... ....

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kthompson
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 5219 South Carolina
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2013-11-01          188252


Makes sense. A sharp shop would have mentioned that to you I think for it could have meant more business for them. ....

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dfiletti
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 13 Philadelphia, PA
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2013-11-01          188258


Again, thanks for the continued input. Very helpful.

OK, I was just messing with it and noticed what I think is a big clue. Immediately after raising and lowering the bucket, I checked the fluid level and there were many small bubbles in the fluid! This, in the absence of a fairly obvious fluid leak (there is none that I can tell) would be indicative of a suction-side air leak, -from what I read earlier in this thread. Is this sound thinking? Please confirm.

Is there any easy way to diagnose a suction-side leak? I know with internal combustion engines, as an example, spraying starter fluid around where you think there may be an intake leak to see if the RPMs increase, is a sure way to tell. Is there a similar 'trick' with hydraulics?

Thanks,

Dan

....

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Kubota B8200 after Hose and Fluid change no Hydraulics

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dfiletti
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 13 Philadelphia, PA
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2013-11-01          188259


Oh, and I did finally talk to them just now (their phone is in a booth out by the road...), they agreed to take it back and figure out what is going on. Again, I gotta figure the air bubbles are a big clue.

Edit: and regarding the notion of being overly optimistic with the shop, that may be. To that very point, I have called two different shops in the area and both said they did not want to try and figure out someone else's mess... So at the moment I'm stuck with trying to get these folks to help me diagnose/ fix it.

Thanks,

Dan ....

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kthompson
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 5219 South Carolina
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2013-11-01          188260


The air bubbles are probably a clue. I am not a hyd system expert at all but whey would an air leak show up only after they change the fluid and filter?

I did a simple search and find from another site on fluids that restrictions (such as filter not of sufficient capacity) or low fluid levels and I would think too thick of fluid could cause air bubbles in the fluid.

There is an old simple thought process here: if was working before the hoses, fluid and filter were changed. So most likely it is caused by one of these or more that was changed. One at the time verify each one: are the hoses the right size? The fluid is for certain the correct type. The filter is the correct one for this tractor. I will be shocked you don't find the problem with one of
the changed items.

I would suspect the filter first for most likely you would realize the hoses were smaller than the old ones but they may have wrong fitting on the hose if they were locally made and not easy to see. Would expect that show up in hot fitting or hearing the fluid spraying like in that fitting if a pressure hose. ....

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hardwood
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 3583 iowa
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2013-11-01          188261


Dan;

The fellows at the Amish hydraulic shop say they used "Tractor Transmission Fluid", I'm sorry, that wouldn't fly with me at all. No doubt they buy in bulk from the low bidder, and use one fluid for all applications.
I never owned a Kubota, but had lots of green iron. Every brand has their own requirements for additives to control brake chatter, clutch wear, moisture tolerance, low and high temperature requirements, on, and on. A green tractor may have small but very important requirements for their fluid than an orange or a blue tractor. The John Deere, Kubota, and what ever Ford NH fluids and filters sell branded for their equipment will be the most expensive up front.
The people who made our tractors don't want them to wear out prematurely, that isn't good for business. So it only stands to reason they will have the fluids and filters that are the best suited to keep them with proper service intervals operating for a long time. ....

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gaspur
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 16 Elberton, Ga.
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2013-11-02          188263


I believe you have the wrong filter on it. ....

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kthompson
Join Date: Oct 2005
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2013-11-19          188356


Dan, any update?
....

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candoarms
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 1932 North Dakota
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2013-12-11          188436


Dan,

We haven't heard from you in a while, so we're still sitting here wondering if you found a solution to this problem.

While talking this over with a friend of mine, it was suggested that you may have detergents in your hydraulic oil. This will cause small bubbles to show up, looking like a thick foam. It is all but impossible to develop any pressure when attempting to compress these bubbles.

Any bubbles in your oil will cause cavitation, causing severe wear in your hydraulic system.

Please make sure that you have the proper hydraulic fluid in your tractor. It should be Kubota Super UDT, or a suitable equivalent. Cenex QuikLift is a very good substitute.

At any rate, your hydraulic fluid should be rated for common sump applications, and is usually identified as HTB.......Hydraulics, Transmission, Brakes.

Hope this helps.

Joel ....

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dfiletti
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 13 Philadelphia, PA
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2014-01-04          188585


OK, so little has been reported here sorry... and, much has happened, and I'm not 100% sure it's resolved. Thanks for the followup folks. Here is what has happened:

Feeling stymied, I finally took the tractor to an authorized Kubota dealer to have a look. They replaced all the fluid with the PROPER fluid, and cleaned out a screen in the bottom of the hydraulic sump that was clogged with what looked like rubber bits from the lines install that the Amish had done. They also replaced a quick connect that was a bit mashed. They did all this work in a nice warm heated shop over a day or two so the tractor got and stayed warm -this fact, I believe is important.

The morning after I picked it up, it was cold (I believe sub-freezing, but I do not specifically remember). Anyway it was again, very slow. The issue remained. At first, it would not move at all, only after minutes will it creep up.

So I was back to square one. I took it back to that same dealer (trip #4...) they went through it with a fine toothed comb. They tested pump pressure, (it was good) all of the connections, replaced some o-rings that did not appear to need it but just to be sure. I picked it up again -from their warm shop and it worked perfectly, was immediately responsive to input and was not slow at all, with no apparent shuttering from air in the system. The tech was not sure that the issue was fixed though, he too seemed a bit stymied. He had asked everyone he works with and did everything he could think of, but was not sure it was fixed.

I will test it tomorrow morning and I really hope it just works, but if it does not, my plan is to assume it has something to do with temperature. I speculate that replacing the hydraulic fluid twice may have, somehow, still left an amount of water in the system somewhere?? which is freezing and causing the problem. -Could this be the issue?

I intend to use a heating pad on the pump, if that does not work, I will try a heated dip-stick in the hydraulic fluid.

I'm just not sure what else to do. Anyway I wanted to fill you folks in with where I am.

Thanks for the concern. I will report back my finding over the next few days. Any and all input remains welcome.

Thanks,

Dan



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candoarms
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 1932 North Dakota
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2014-01-05          188590


Dan,

Thanks for getting back to us. I'm trying my best to figure this out.

1. Is your loader operation affected by the cold weather? Does your loader respond quickly? Up-Down movement is good, or bad, when the tractor is cold?

2. If your loader isn't affected by the cold weather, we need to start looking at a possible brake problem. I'm not sure how the linkage is arranged on the B8200. Is it possible that cold weather causes the brake linkage to shrink, slightly engaging the brakes? If so, this can be corrected by adjusting the brake linkage to allow for a bit of play.

3. Have you checked your fuel filter? Cold weather will cause the fuel to begin to gel, plugging your fuel filter with waxes. Cold weather can cause all sorts of problems for diesel engines. If your engine is starving for fuel, you'll get almost no power out of it....though it may sound like it's running just fine. If you're using #2 diesel, it's good only to about 10 degrees above zero. #1 diesel is good to about -25F. Adding a bit of diesel fuel supplement can prevent gelling to around -40F.

4. Does the problem persist in both 2 and 4 wheel operation? Did the guys in the shop drain the front axle and replace the fluid with Super UDT?

Just batting a few things around here.....bear with me.

Hope this helps.

Joel ....

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Kubota B8200 after Hose and Fluid change no Hydraulics

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dfiletti
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 13 Philadelphia, PA
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2014-01-05          188594


Joel-

I REALLY do appreciate your input and help. I'll answer your questions as best as I can. I can confirm that sitting it outside in the cold overnight(it's 31F outside now) does cause the loader and 3-Point to be non-responsive, and it was fine yesterday when I picked it up from a warm shop.

1. Is your loader operation affected by the cold weather? Does your loader respond quickly? Up-Down movement is good, or bad, when the tractor is cold?

**A: BOTH the loader and the 3-Point lift are slow/ non-responsive when it's cold. From the below questions, it seems as though you may be assuming that a) the tractor is a hydro (it's not) and, b) the problem is with the drive wheels too (it's not). To be clear the drive wheels seem to have plenty of power and do not seem to be effected at all by temperature. It is only the loader and 3-point that are slow and stuttering.**

2. If your loader isn't affected by the cold weather, we need to start looking at a possible brake problem. I'm not sure how the linkage is arranged on the B8200. Is it possible that cold weather causes the brake linkage to shrink, slightly engaging the brakes? If so, this can be corrected by adjusting the brake linkage to allow for a bit of play.

**A: Unless I am reading you wrong, the fact that this is not a Hydro drive tractor makes this a mot question/ point -no? Please correct me if I'm wrong about that. Again the tractor drives fine with, seemingly plenty of power.

3. Have you checked your fuel filter? Cold weather will cause the fuel to begin to gel, plugging your fuel filter with waxes. Cold weather can cause all sorts of problems for diesel engines. If your engine is starving for fuel, you'll get almost no power out of it....though it may sound like it's running just fine. If you're using #2 diesel, it's good only to about 10 degrees above zero. #1 diesel is good to about -25F. Adding a bit of diesel fuel supplement can prevent gelling to around -40F.

**A: The fuel filter was replaced with an OEM replacement part, less than 10 hours ago. Current temps, 31F do not seem to be the culprit with the fuel.

4. Does the problem persist in both 2 and 4 wheel operation? Did the guys in the shop drain the front axle and replace the fluid with Super UDT?

**A: I have not tested this yet, I will, and I'll report back. But it may be less important given that it's not a hydro? As for draining and replacing the front axle, no I do not think this has been done -could it be at play here given that this is not a hydro-drive tractor?

I keep coming back to the air in the lines. Somehow it's getting air in, it stutters and I have previously witnessed air bubbles in the hydro-oil on the stick. I will look to see if this is still happening and report back. I HAVE to figure this is a big clue, but the tech at the Kubota dealer could not find where air could be coming in!! It feels like some seal, or not obviously split metal only allows air in when it's cold /(contracted?) -it's really bizarre!

The other theory I'm considering is that draining and replacing the fluid twice, still somehow, left some water in the system that is freezing and causing a blockage. Can anyone comment on whether this could be possible?

I'll report back a) whether 2-wheel vs. 4-wheel will make a difference, and b) whether I'm still getting visible air bubbles on the hydraulic fluid dip stick after use.

Thanks again for the input folks.

Dan


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candoarms
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 1932 North Dakota
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2014-01-05          188601


Dan,

Thank you for the quick response! Let me address some of the problems I've encountered here.

I was assuming you had a hydrostatic transmission, due to your use of the term (Hydro oil). My fault.

You are correct, my friend. Since you have a gear transmission, none of the issues concerning a common sump will apply here. I apologize for taking up so much of your time.

Starting over now.....

Does your loader operate normally for the first time once it's out of the garage? Does it operate normally for several minutes before failing?

If this is the case, I'd be leaning toward a sticking pressure relief valve. The pressure relief valve is designed to open when maximum pressure is reached. When the pressure relief valve opens, hydraulic fluid flows straight back to your oil reservoir. When pressure in the hydraulic system falls below the set limit, the relief valve closes, allowing for normal loader/three-point operation.

One more possibility.........

You may have a float valve on your loader. When placing the loader control lever in the float position, a valve is opened that allows oil to flow straight back to the reservoir. With the loader control valve in placed in the "Float" position, the three-point hitch will not operate.

It's possible that the loader float control valve is not fully closing, causing the majority of your oil to flow back to sump.

Your pump has been checked and is putting out plenty of pressure, so it's something in the hydraulic circuit that is allowing fluid to bypass when under pressure. Those two valves are the only two I can currently think of that could be causing your problem.

I hope this helps.

Joel





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kthompson
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2014-01-07          188611


Dan, they did replace the hyd oil filter with Kubota's, right?

I realize our normal low is not as cold as Dan and certainly not your's Joel but with my tractors see only a slightly slower lift time in the coldest I use them but my mini excavator does not like to be used when first cranked in cold weather and even has a warning light to warn of low hyd oil temp. Here just letting it fast idle long enough to grease the unit takes care of that low temp light. It still will operate for have to do some operating to grease.

Dan, your tractor does it have power steering? If yes it does use same hyd oil system if not badly mistaken. So what ever you are seeing in the lift or front end loader I would think you will see in the steering being slow unless it is taking the majority of oil flow. kt ....

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candoarms
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2014-01-07          188612


Kthompson,

I had my tractor out yesterday. It was -24 and the wind chill was around -55. Everything on the tractor worked perfectly......though the loader is very slow going up-down during the first few minutes of warm-up time.

It was one of those '8 days out of a year' that I sometimes wish I had a cab on the tractor.

You mentioned a filter flow problem. That is certainly a possibility in Dan's case.

Joel ....

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dfiletti
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2014-01-08          188617


The tractor does not have power steering. I have been delayed a bit on my testing because of work schedule -I will report back. Oh and they did absolutely replace fluid with proper Kubota fluid- for certain.

Dan ....

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kthompson
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2014-01-09          188621


Dan, I asked about the "filter" not fluid, you had already stated but I did not see any mention of the filter. I do not care if the filter used by the first people was a Kubota filter or not I would change the filter with the oil change especially with the trash found in the screen filter. Then I am assuming this tractor has a true filter. kt

Joel as to the temp, we have been a balmy 15 to 32 for Monday late till Wednesday late. Thank God we finally got the gate closed out of Canada, our high Saturday is the other direction to be in the 70's. Guess this weekend is global warming and the low was caused by??
....

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candoarms
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2014-01-09          188623


Kthompson,

70 degrees.......now that's something we won't see around here until early June.

If you have any of that global warming stuff left over, I'm in the market for a bunch of it. LOL

Joel ....

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MHarryE
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2014-01-09          188624


Dad - Brainstorming here. I am not sure of your system's schematic. You mentioned it has a screen from the transmission housing that blocked numerous rubber particles that apparently entered the system from the replumb job. Does it also have a suction filter prior to the pump? You said the filter in the system was changed, but I am unsure whether this is a suction filter or pressure filter. Past experience - the company for which I worked bought a company that had a product line including a machine with a suction filter. When we started producing that machine in Minneapolis we began having problems in the winter because thick oil in cold weather was partially obstructed by the filter and the main pump couldn't get enough oil. We had to start bringing those machines into the shop to warm up the day before shipping. As that particular design needed a very fine filtration, we could not change to a higher micron rating filter so we redesigned the system. Your tractor, not being a hydro, can withstand more fluid contamination. Is it possible the filter installed is a very low micron rating filter that is restricting oil too much at low temperatures? I remember you saying the Kubota dealer changed the fluid but I didn't remember saying if they made sure to change the filter and use the proper filter. My Kubota hydro has a coarse hydraulic suction filter but the hydro system, much more sensitive to contamination, is filtered with a pressure filter that will feed the piston pump and precision controls with finely filtered oil. ....

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kthompson
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2014-01-09          188626


Joel, we are only about 52 degrees today.

That is just wrong, right! When we have our 100 degree days in July and August (most years we have a few) that is sort of an offset I guess. People will say you get use to where you live but how you work with frozen this and frozen that for weeks on end you all impress me. kt ....

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candoarms
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2014-01-09          188627


Kthompson,

I blow snow for several friends after each storm. I don't have a cab on my tractor, which means that I'm out in the weather for hours at a time.

One thing you learn real quick-like in this area of the country.....cold is good. When it gets warm, the snow melts. When it gets cold again, every single thing you touch has ice in, on, and around it. Nothing works.

Extension cords get frozen into the ice. Tires freeze down to the driveway. Even the tractor's bucket gets frozen down and the hydraulics won't break it loose.

Even a simple adjustable wrench is absolutely worthless to a guy if even a single drop of water got into it while it was warm.

Once it gets cold, we prefer that it just stay cold. Now the women.....they don't care if our tools don't work. They want it warm. LOL

Joel ....

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dfiletti
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2014-01-09          188630


Quote:
Originally Posted by kthompson | view 188621
Dan, I asked about the "filter" not fluid, you had already stated but I did not see any mention of the filter. I do not care if the filter used by the first people was a Kubota filter or not I would change the filter with the oil change especially with the trash found in the screen filter.Then I am assuming this tractor has a true filter.


That is a fine, perfectly logical question... and I don't know the answer! I will ask the dealer.

Thanks,

Dan ....

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kthompson
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2014-02-21          189093


Dan, what was the outcome to you problem? ....

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Art White
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2014-02-21          189095


Some of the things you never forget are the things that you learn from the school of hard knocks. I'd look very closely at the lines they replaced. The reason the system might not work well to begin with it do to an air leak that would allow the system to drain out in between running the tractor.
This often only takes a small air leak that doesn't drain or leak any oil externally! Chances are there will be some air bubbles in the system. The original oil used in a B-8200 is not like Kubota's newer hydraulic oils although it still probably better then the universal fit all fluids.
I would take apart what they had assembled and reseal every connection.. ....

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dfiletti
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2014-04-30          190217


Folks-

Apologies for the long delay in response. The warmer weather has brought relief to the issue, which has me thinking that the issue was possibly present when we bought the tractor last summer, and only became evident as the temperatures dropped.

I am still no closer to solving it, and I can tell, despite all I have done, the issue is still present, just not as much of a pain with warmer temps. As a stop-gap I'm thinking of installing a hydro fluid heater. Can anyone point me to a good one?

Thanks,

Dan ....

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jobone
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2014-04-30          190218


I seriously doubt that heating the hydraulic fluid is the cure, you live in Pennsylvania after all not the north pole!

Your tractor is engineered to run and operate without a heater.

I think your problem goes back to the Amish hose replacement where there is a air leak from them poorly attaching hose fittings that leak or suck air.

....

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Murf
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2014-05-01          190228


If you are using hydraulic fluid that is too thick that is too high of this cosseting that in cold weather it's possible for the pressure to rise above the settings of your pressure release valve which would cause you to have no hydraulic function.

What type of fluid did you change it with?


Best of luck. ....

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Art White
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2014-05-01          190229


For what has been given, I'd go with a fluid change so you know what you have.
It should be about the same thickness as a ten weight oil. ....

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WillieH
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2014-05-05          190261


Dan ~

It is tough to say, just what the Amish folk did or did not disturb while "fixing" your orange, as we were not there. Needless to say, at this point in time, there are many on this site that certainly would have done a proper job, above and beyond what you have experienced.
I am going to throw something out there at you. You mentioned that you have a loader. Everything worked fine PRIOR to the "repair" work. Then it studders in the hydraulic action once you received it back, slow at best but with air bubbles (perhaps moisture/condensation).

On the right side of the tractor's engine (follow the hydraulic line from the pump to a cast "Y". This will be a directional shut-off valve. In one direction, it will allow flow to the loader valve, then return fluid to the sump through the other side of this valve.
a) check to see that the little arm atop this directional valve is actually moved in the proper direction . It will need to "point" in the direction of the hose going to the loader. (there will be port A and port B - one feeding out, one return, and is easy to trace thru)

If this directional arm is NOT open all the way, it will be restricting flow, and cause laziness in the hydraulic operations - ALL THE WAY AROUND the tractor.

You mentioned also, that you had/have some small black rubber like chunks on the screen. in the directional valve, sits a small o-ring. As this 'typically" does not get used very much, over time, it will dry rot, and break down...leaving you not necessarily with a leak out, but with a potential suction inwards of contaminants. Additionally, if you are secure with the hose to cylinder connections as being tight, check the loader valve itself for wear as moisture and grime can work on the spools, then slowly working inwards eating away the seals allowing moisture/air inwards. Another spot to check is the boot to the shifter stick. As this is a gear shift, as the boot wears with age, it will dry rot. I HAVE seen on mine B5200's,B6200's,B8200 that are garaged near all the time, that the boots will dry rot and allow grime to work on the seal of the shifter and top end of the tranny casting. This in time will allow a suction inwards as well. Unfortunately, given the location for BOTH the loader valve and shifter seal, they are ideal spots to where moisture (rain/snow the like), can sit and seep in causing weird stuff - such as the little bubbles you are seeing. By the way, that effect if called cavitation, as the pump spins without (in this case hydraulic oil) freely, and churns the little bubbles into millions of baby bubbles and so forth as it circulates through out the system.

If you were to pull the tranny screen, and you were to find a heavy cream or thickness coating it. You would be ultimately starving the pump, and the pump BEING strong, would suck from whatever miniscule opening it could find. This may be a by product of an old trick that was used, and still today used on old worn out pumps to get them primed after tear downs. The "service person" would load a small amount of heavy weight grease into the suction side of the pump, or suction tube. this thickness would then create a vacuum in the system to draw the fluids in an otherwise worn pump system. If, and I use the word loosely, if the Amish reasoned that "the tractor was old", and assumed the pump needed to be primed, this would/could explain the heavy cream if found on the strainer screen.
Just shooting some what-ifs at you.

As stated earlier, the older units are not as sensitive as the newer when it comes to many elements, including the hydraulic oil. If you can change a tire, you can change the hydraulic oil in this unit...it is that simple, just a little messy...the same as pulling the strainer from behind the tire/wheel assembly that you pull off for access.

Willie H ....

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dfiletti
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2014-12-11          191601


Folks-

I really appreciate all of the input. I have been through all of the suggestions provided and still no love.... Amazing that this is still going on, and now that it's gotten cold the tractor is ~unusable. Frustrated, I took it to another tractor guy, and he is certain that the issue is the main control valve -the one with the hand controls for bucket operation etc.

Here's the new problem: Kubota no longer makes it! He's checking around at bone yards etc, and may, or may not find one, but I thought I'd ask here:

1) Anyone know where I can source an OEM control valve for a B8200, circa ~1980? New used/ whatever...

2) Anyone know if these are rebuild-able, my tractor guy thinks not, but perhaps folks here know better?

3) Anyone have a suggestion for a replacement/ non-OEM, alternative unit -maybe from another tractor, that will/ can be made, to work?

I'm open to any and all ideas, even those that may challenge the diagnosis, if applicable.

Thank you again, for all of the kind help. It is most appreciated.

Dan ....

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greyhorse
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2014-12-11          191603


This makes for great reading and very unfortunate outcome. Try looking on Ebay for Kubota B8200DT Control Valve PN: 67830-37305. I only see well worn used stuff not cheap either.

I cannot see why a Kubota dealer could not install a different newer control in its place even if they had to fabricate a plate to mount it though.

Assuming you have measured the pump pressure and it is good, it may still be that botch job done in the beginning on the hoses and fluids that may still be the culprit with bad hydro line connectors :( ....

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Rguarino
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2015-01-16          191867


Dan, I have a B8200 4WD (with a shifter) with the same problem. I'll try to keep this brief. I had it apart in fall '06 when i got it to replace the engine. I cleaned the suction strainer and used Kubota UDT when re-assembled. It didn't get much cold weather use till 2010 and that's when the trouble started. At first I thought "Loader valve" but the studdering and then nothing really seemed like cavitation from a dirty suction strainer or a chunk of ice that took a few seconds before blocking flow. So I pulled the suction screen. It seemed pretty clogged but I did not find any ice. I cleaned it and put it back together. I don't recall how it performed the rest of that winter but it has been a problem the last few. This past fall I drained the fluid and it seemed somewhat creamy so I flushed the system, put in a new suction strainer, new fluid (not Kubota but it said compatible with Kubota UDT on the pail), and a new shifter boot because it is a route for water to get in. I thought "no problems this winter". I was about 15 degrees the other day and it's not any better! I unhooked the lines to the loader and changed the directional valve position and still no pressure. I put the valve back and looped the pressure line back to hydraulic block and still no pressure. I bet if you try this you'll have the same results. This rules out the loader valve and the Amish.
In the Kubota WSM they place the pressure gauge between the pump and the hydraulic block and then restrict the flow to build pressure. This isolates the pump, so if no pressure it can only be the pump or no fluid getting to the pump. I don't have the same pressure test setup as in the book so I'm Next I'm going to brave the cold and disconnect the return line at the top of the transmission and route it to a bucket to check if flow is present even though high pressure isn't. If no fluid comes out I'm going to pull the suction strainer again. I may also, depending on what I find, while the strainer is out and a bucket under the transmission, separate the suction line (it's two piece), attach a hose to the short side attached to the pump and put the hose in the bucket and try the hydraulics again. I'll let you know how it works out. By the way, the loader valve and the three point control valve do seem to be available from Kubota.

Rob ....

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dfiletti
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2015-02-07          192033


Quote:
Originally Posted by Rguarino | view 191867
Dan, I have a B8200 4WD (with a shifter) with the same problem.


Thanks Rob. A couple of things.

1) I am glad to know I'm not alone with this problem. -Although I'm sorry for your trouble.

2) I REALLY wish I had read the above before I found what was, I'm pretty sure, the last new old stock loader valve in the country, had it sent to me from Wisconsin and installed, and realized the problem was not resolved... AHHHHHHHH!

3) I am actively still looking for a solution to this, so any and all opinions are still encouraged and appreciated. -I have printed out all relevant opinions and will drop them off at the shop to try.

4) Once I figure out what the issue is, I WILL share it so you and others can learn from it.

5) Just spit balling, I'm wondering about the idea of emptying the hydraulic system of oil and pressurizing it with air and listening for air leaks, any thoughts on this strategy?

Some times I think about giving up and finding someone down south to sell it to...

Anyway, thanks again for the help all.

Dan ....

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kubotaman321
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2020-07-25          199526


I had same problem - same tractor. I had to change the oil twice. I noticed particles in filter also.. That clogs it up. The hose change - probably had something to do with it. Maybe they reversed something. Or maybe they let loose the particles into the system. Flushing it out multiple times may be required. Also using the right oil is important according to Kubota. I had similar problem and did multiple flushes and cleaning the filter til it worked correctly.
....

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