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Forums > Active Threads > General Tractor Discussions > Everything and Anything

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DennisCTB
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2009-07-31          164522


Cash for clunkers or just another income redistribution program? What do you think?

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greg_g
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2009-07-31          164524


Sorta academic at the moment. Morning news (Fox I think) reported the program crashed after a week. New car dealers loved the upswing in business, but there was apparently some problem in the government money pipeline.

Before this happened, my sympathy went out to the 3rd and 4th tier USED car lots. Those 1984-2001 vehicles that got less than 18mpg were their bread and butter because of the invitingly low price - until the Obama for lunch bunch decided they were "clunkers".

edit: I just found out that Glen Beck is addressing this "stalled" program this afternoon (1700 EST Fox News Channel).

//greg//

....

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earthwrks
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2009-07-31          164526


I hear the German gov has done it earlier this year along with one or two other governments over there. ....

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DennisCTB
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2009-07-31          164529


They are looking for more money for the program, another 2 billion. I guess the reasoning is better to fund car buying than just send the checks to GM and Chrysler!

To qualify you need a car with less than 18mpg and need to own it for at least a year, and your car must be shredded so you get zero trade in value.

This would limit the program to low income individuals or people who keep clunkers around. Ironically, the people who have the clunkers probably are the same people who defaulted on home mortgages, and may default on these new car loans!

The program may have its merits but color me skeptical, I also don't like that fact that those of us that have been doing the right thing all along get squat while we get the privilege of funding the cost of a new car via our tax dollars for those that could have "cared less ".

....

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kwschumm
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2009-07-31          164531


Typical half-baked government social engineering at the expense of the taxpayer (or more correctly, future taxpayers who are being enslaved without a say in the matter).

All this stupid program did is encourage many people who wanted to buy a new car to delay the purchase until the taxpayer picked up part of the tab. ....

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DennisCTB
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2009-07-31          164533


I just read that the dealers here in NJ are filling the crankcase of the clunkers with sodium silicate, then running them until the engine seizes into a block of steel and glass. Now the salvage yards don't really want them as the engine was the most valuable piece of the salvage.

Interesting, after WWII manufacturers began shortening the design life of consumer products, so things would break and people would buy more. Now we have taken it to the next step euthanize the cars so they can get a new one!
....

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kwschumm
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2009-07-31          164534


Since the government is so pro-euthanasia and anti-term-limits maybe we can combine the two issues to our advantage. How about a law that requires any politician running for a third term to be euthanized?
....

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kthompson
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2009-07-31          164535


The best sources I have tell me there is more in common with the clunkers and health care planning being done by the Demoncrats than they are willing to share.
Each will cost more than they admit or budget for.
Desire to get ride of car or person when they have worked as long as they think proper.
Playing with our emotions as it is back and forth and the real truth is not know.
They set the standards as to what is worthy to survive or what must be destoryed.
They are not required to meet the same standards (in the health care deal they get to keep their plan which is totally paid for as long as they live by US tax payers).
We have no choice over time as with cars the health care gets smaller and smaller to be far and protect our planet.

For those who don't understand AARP's attitude, they are a for profit insurance agency that sells some of the higher price insurance in each type they place their label on. I beleive they think there will be business for them by buddying up to the Democrats now.

As in the low price car market and junk yards many will be left in the cold in more ways than one. Yes I see how both programs show their contempt for you and me. ....

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cutter
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2009-08-01          164559


This may give you some hope:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UOLs7Cybnqw&feature=related
....

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hardwood
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2009-08-02          164562


KT;
I was fooled by the AARP ad's on the TV and thru the mail so I sent in my membership. Being I did it backwards by joining first and researching them later I was amazed at how their slick advertising can fool people into thinking they are in business to help old people, not so at all, their goal is to gouge the old folks. I called their 800 number and asked for a refund of my membersship money, they sent it back. Frank. ....

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greg_g
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2009-08-02          164563


Yeah, I too found AARP insurance offerings to be highly over-rated (and comparatively over-priced). But I saw through that outfit several years ago. When I discovered that my dues were being funneled to liberal PACs, the DNC, into Democrat re-election efforts, I canceled our memberships (wife's and mine) on the spot.

//greg// ....

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cutter
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2009-08-02          164565


I did the same thing, dropped them about as quickly as I signed up. They continue to send notices, years later, about my "dues". Went so far as to write to them about why I dropped out, refused delivery of a few notices, yet they continue.

Guess I can feel good about them wasting postage on me and not on someone that might fall for their BS. ....

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hardwood
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2009-08-02          164566


I didn't want to comment on the cash for clunkers thing till I did some research, and I'm not sure I fully understand it now, but here's my take on it.
1 - The average "Clunker" likely has less than 25K miles left in it. OK they save the difference of 18 - 22 MPG, or four MPG for 25K = 250 Gal. at whatever the price of gas may be.
2 - Supposed to help low income folks. OK, Government gives them up to 4500 towards the price of a new car that they likely can't afford even with the free money.
3 - Obama and the Republicans for that matter slobbered all over the domestic car makers with multi billon dollar bailouts and all kinds of promised help down the road. OK. WHY, if they want to help our domestic carmakers are we the taxpayers giving incentive mney to people who purchase foreign cars and the profit from those sales goes to the country of origin instead of keeping the profits from that car sale here in our own depleted coffers?????????????
Sounds to me like a program designed by the rich for the rich and will be as lax on safeguards and as ripe for fraud and corruption as the insurance company bailouts were.
Nuff from me. ....

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DennisCTB
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2009-08-02          164567


I just heard that supposedly dealers are allowed to put any cars that they took on trades as of July 1, so part of the run on the program was from dealers dumping their used car inventory. ....

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greg_g
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2009-08-02          164569


Quote:
Originally Posted by hardwood | view 164566
Sounds to me like a program designed by the rich for the rich ...
I was withya (sorta) up till there. How do ya reckon Cash for Clunkers is "for the rich"? What I see is just an extension of the sub-prime mortgage mess. That is, the government tempting insolvent folks to take out yet another loan they would otherwise never be qualified for.

//greg// ....

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hardwood
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2009-08-02          164570


Greg;
You answered your own question about this "Obama Scheme", I'll call it. Do poor people own the sub-prime mortgage business? You are absolutely correct people without the ability to repay will be suckerd into loans they can't handle. The rich feeding off the poor, I have little time for those kind.
Dennis, is your message telling me that dealers may be able to unload excess cars without the cars having been a tradein on the clunker program? ....

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DennisCTB
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2009-08-02          164571


Quote:
Originally Posted by hardwood | view 164570
.....Dennis, is your message telling me that dealers may be able to unload excess cars without the cars having been a tradein on the clunker program?


Yes that is my understanding, of course they would only want to do that if the market value of the cars on the lot were less than the Cash for Clunkers rebate. ....

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DennisCTB
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2009-08-02          164572


Quote:
Originally Posted by greg_g | view 164569
....What I see is just an extension of the sub-prime mortgage mess. That is, the government tempting insolvent folks to take out yet another loan they would otherwise never be qualified for.//greg//


That is exactly what I thought, then I watched the video on the NY Times about a dealer here in NJ that I know of. Looked to me like the cars in his lot were not clunkers at all most looked to be worth at least $5000, just out of favor like 9 year old Jeep Grand Cherokees, Mini vans etc.

....

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cutter
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2009-08-02          164574


I guess I don't see how this program is for the "rich" unless you consider middle class rich. The truly poor can't afford a new car and the rich really don't make their purchases based upon trading in their old clunker (which is most likely a year or two old BMW), let alone a rebate.

The "poor" don't pay taxes, so they are not footing the bill. The rich and the middle class pay the taxes in this country, along with the oil companies, private utilities and other businesses.

....

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earthwrks
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2009-08-02          164577


I haven't done any research or know anyone that has taken advantage of the program. Since I'm close to the automotive fire so to speak, the news has been touting the aspect of creating some jobs from it, which is a Godsend here.

(My thinking leans toward global economy--good or bad--it's a reality we have to live with)

The other aspects touted locally are perhaps the unintended or collateral damage: scrap yards and separately used parts recyclers. Supposedly those certified clunkers cannot be resold and redriven. So their engines have to be removed and melted down. This is suppose to drive the cost of steel up according to the media. I don't see it. In fact, their will be glut of engine-type steel and aluminmum which drive costs down---unless things flip and there will be new demand for raw materials based on cars selling faster than they can be made. And potentailly there will be a glut of engineless cars that ultimately will have to be crushed since there will be less running cars to repair.

Frank mentioned foreign car makers taking their profits back with them. Not sure that's really accurate on the face of it for several reasons:
- Those cars that are built here use OUR people--jobs.
- They pay property taxes on plants and equipment HERE.
- They use OUR rail, air and trucking systems--jobs.
- They use some of the same parts makers as domestics.

However, even our domestic makers don't necessarily build their cars and trucks here--my last three Dodges were made in Mexico.

I'm jis' sayin' ....

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hardwood
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2009-08-02          164583


EW;
I've heard all that hash before. The foreign owned auto companies would close their doors here in a heartbeat if they couldn't take some of the profits home with them. Lets say this "Program" creates a need for five million cars, (just a number out of the blue), it takes a given number of people to build five million cars. OK, wouldn't you rather they be built in domestic factories and all the profits be kept here? We've given away enough of our manufacturing ability now, do you want that to continue? ....

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earthwrks
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2009-08-03          164590


Frank, of course they take a part of their profits--this is business, not charity LOL.

Continue? We don't have a choice. It's called "protectionism". And laws won't change it--other countries (as do we) cry foul when we tell them we won't allow their goods here. It's politics. It's bigger than me, and I'm not an economist--I just play in the dirt. ....

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hardwood
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2009-08-03          164593


EW;
Yes, I realize that my shouting about things like this only raises my blood pressure and the politicans could care less about my opinions, so goes the world.
Like someone said Chevron is not in business to produce oil, they are in business to make money. ....

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greg_g
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2009-08-05          164664


The program is just too poorly thought out in so many ways. But the one that bothers me the most is who's paying for this. It's the "responsible ones" who are once again funding a disproportionate share. I consider myself to be in that group, with two cars that already get 26 and 35 mpg respectively (combined city/highway). The "other group" is comprised of those CfC participants, by virtue of them driving cars that get less than 18 mpg.

The responsibles are funding the $3500 and $4500 gifts that tempt the others to race out and buy a car, one that they likely wouldn't otherwise consider. Yes, some of the others pay taxes too. But they're getting a real time return of substance. The responsibles aren't.

Another example about how poorly this mess was thought out; only 1 out of the top 5 cars purchased under this program - is an American car. And now we're likely going to throw another two billion at it. I'm strongly inclined to agree with the opening post. This is just more redistribution of wealth.

//greg// ....

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DennisCTB
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2009-08-05          164667


The other irony is that many of the cars that are being traded in are cars whose owners drove them very little. College kids, train station cars.. etc. So the effect on gas consumption is next to nothing. The program is more like a lottery as Greg said, we all put in and only some benefit. ....

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greg_g
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2009-08-09          164783


Some folks are lamenting that crushing all these "clunkers" is depriving the market of what may be classic car parts in the future. Personally - given the absurd EPA/NHSTA mandates over the years - I don't really see very many "classics" evolving from the graduating classes of 1984 to 2001.

More to the point, removing the $3500 to $4500 category of cars from the market place - is depriving an very large group of low income people of the only vehicles they can afford. There's a difference between taking a "clunker" into a dealer and financing a new car (whether you can afford it or not) - and just going out shopping for something ($3500 to $4500) that you can actually afford.

//greg// ....

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hardwood
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2009-08-09          164784


The clunker money an individual gets to help buy a new car will likely be considered as ordinary income on their 09 tax return, if the individual is subjec to taxes.
The next big farce being pushed on us by the Obama admistration is the health care reforme bill that he wants, "Rushed" thru before anyone can have time to read the two foot thick bill. We should at least be allowed to hear all the aspects of this "Reform" before he gets it made into law. ....

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DennisCTB
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2009-08-09          164785


Quote:
Originally Posted by greg_g | view 164783
...is depriving an very large group of low income people of the only vehicles they can afford. There's a difference between taking a "clunker" into a dealer and financing a new car (whether you can afford it or not)- and just going out shopping for something ($3500 to $4500) that you can actually afford.//greg//


I think you are right, this is really not a low income plan, low income people really cannot afford a new car. It seems to be more of a windfall to families that have plenty of income and have a large fleet of cars, one of which qualifies.

It is sad that our government does not see that the cars that are being scrapped would be a blessing for the lowest income people in the US. It seems very short sighted to me.

How about changing the plan to Cash for Clunkers and instead of crushing them give them to people on welfare so they cna get a job! ....

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Art White
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2009-08-13          164897




Got an email from GM today offering 0 for 72 now with teh program.

I think it is going to leave a big void in the ages of good used cars available although I think there are still plenty available in dealers lots.

I'd like a nice used car for occasional use but it wouldn't be from NY anyway. This new calcium they started using a few years ago on the roads here is killing cars in five years anyway from the rust. ....

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JAZAK5
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2009-08-15          164953


nothing for nothing, I have been looking to buy a car to replace my CLUNKER (1995 e 150 conversion van with 200,000) on it and it,s not worth $4,500 any way. I live 2 miles from work and have driven clunkers all my life and really did not like the new car idea at all !!! I have been honestly working and paying taxes since the age of 14. When I started to look to replace my van there was nothing around !!! Now I own a brand new 7 passenger vehicle for the same price as a used vehicle with 30,000 miles and a payment equal to the nickle + dime issues I was dealing with on the van. I rationalize this as getting some of the tax money back from the system I have been paying into//I HAVE ALWAYS HAD A LEGITIMATE JOB AND HAVE NEVER USED THE SYSTEM BEFORE//NO WELFARE HERE !!!!and I thank GOD for (not being unemployed)// ....

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cutter
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2009-08-15          164956


Pretty similar situation for me as well. Look at it as a taxpayer getting something for his taxes rather than a non-contributing societal leech being handed OUR money. ....

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hardwood
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2009-08-16          164969


A friend has an older Impala, I don't know what year, but the big Pillsbury Dohyboy looking model form the eightys or ninetys. He bought it new, the car has like 250K and still runs fine but the body is kaput. He went to a Chevy dealership wanting to trade it in on the Cash for Clunkers program. The dealer told him that because of the zero trade in value of his Impala it didn't qualify, Is this correct? Made the friend mad he said he'll just keep driving the old Impala. He can easily pay cash for a new car so that did'nt nix the deal.
Another friend whom I know thru church is a salesman for a Chevy dealer, he said there is six to eight hours of paperwork involved in the C for C trade program, seems pretty typical for a government run deal. ....

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earthwrks
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2009-08-16          164983


Frank, there many conditions for cfc. They have to be less than 25 years old, be owned by that person and insured for at least one year prior. Trade In has nothing to do with it----my buddy has a new recycling yard. He buys cars from dealers for $300 each. He said last year he recycled 1200 cars. This year---a little more than half way----he's done that many and more. Google cash for clunkers eligible and you'll see the rules. 6-8 for paperwork---bs. I hear it takes 45 min to an hour. I hear it takes hours to get a gov't response for approval. ....

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kwschumm
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2009-08-16          164985


I can't blame anyone for wanting to "stick it to the man" and get some benefit for the taxes paid, especially since it seems these days that in most cases the people who benefit from government programs don't pay taxes.

Unfortunately the "man" being stuck with the bill probably hasn't been born yet :(

Talk about taxation without representation.
....

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hardwood
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2009-08-16          164987


EW;
Just tellin ya what each man told me, never known them to be liars. ....

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earthwrks
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2009-08-16          164988


I'm not saying they're liars--maybe 'zaggerating it A LOT. They couldn't stay in business. PLUS, if I used your buddys' calculations that would make it impossible to explain the 280,000 cars already sold---that would be about 200,000 DAYS.

You're a fart smeller---ahmean...smart feller...think about it Frank: If a dealership has 5 salespeople--that means they're only selling 5-6 cars a day? I don't believe it. Or maybe it's like when my FORMER computer place charged me three hours to download and copy my stuff to another computer--all they did was plug in ONE cable, press a few keys and walk away---then go do the same to bunch of other customers LOL.

Maybe LOL your hearing aid was going dead and... LOL

Gimme a hug now! ....

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Cash for clunkers

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hardwood
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 3583 iowa
TractorPoint Premium Member -- 5 Tractors = Very Frequent Poster

2009-08-17          165001


EW:
I don't know how many new cars per day they sell, but doubt it would be more than two or three, their bread and butter is pickup trucks, used cars and used pickups. I think they have three sales people. This is a small dealership, but been there since Moby Dick was a minnow.
The friend with the old Impala is almost as anti Obama and his henchmen as me, so he may be finding any reason to pick the thing apart too.
Member, I tried to warn ya before the election??? ....

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DennisCTB
Join Date: Nov 1998
Posts: 2644 NorthWest NJ
TractorPoint Premium Member -- 5 Tractors = Very Frequent Poster  View my Photos  Pics

2013-03-14          186401


I just remembered this cash for clunker program today and how bizarre it seems that it was ever done....perfectly good cars being bought by the government...dealers having to pay to freeze up the engine blocks and scrap them......

Three years later ....a once in a lifetime nutso occurrence.... ....

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