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candoarms
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 1932 North Dakota
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2009-01-06          159144


Dear friends,

If any of you are interested in knowing the torque specifications for your vehicle repair projects, please ask. I have the complete specs for most vehicles....cars and trucks.

For example, if you're currently replacing the flywheel on your 88 Ford F-150, I can provide you with all torque specifications.

If you are replacing a head on a 91 Chevy Caprice, I can provide you with the bolt tightening sequence pattern, as well as the torque specifications.

I'm always happy to help.

Joel

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earthwrks
Join Date: Dec 2003
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2009-01-06          159148


Reminds me of the '93 Mitsubishi Spyders that had warped brake rotors that happened before a tightening sequence was discovered.

Joel you're a man in the know; I need a relatively inexpensive replacement for the viscous fan drive on my '03 Ram with a H.O. Cummins. Borg-Warner makes it for Chrysler and lists at nearly $500. Open to suggestions. ....

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candoarms
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2009-01-07          159150


Earthwrks,

The Borg Warner stuff I have experience with is nothing but pure junk. I will NEVER own another Borg Warner transfer case. I don't know about their viscous drive units, but if it were up to me I'd be looking for one made by someone else.

Your viscous drive unit is electronically controlled. Depending upon the cooling requirements, the clutch engages accordingly. In other words, the clutch may not fully engage. It is designed to slip as part of its normal operation. The hotter the engine gets, the less slip from the clutch.

I don't like it. It's never a good idea to slip ANY clutch for more than a few seconds. The onboard computer "decides" how much cooling is required, as well as how much the clutch should be allowed to slip. (probably because they needed to meet some government demand regarding fuel economy)

With your truck shut off, and completely cool, you can test your viscous fan drive by hand. Give it a spin. If it spins at least five full revolutions on its own, it's shot.

Before I can provide you with any alternative replacement parts, I'll need to know the exact model of your pickup, as well as the engine VIN code.

Looking forward to helping you if I can.

Joel ....

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candoarms
Join Date: Mar 2007
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2009-01-07          159151


Earthwrks,

There's mention made of the possibility that your clutch may be leaking fluid. If this is the case, it won't engage. Slight seepage isn't uncommon, but a leak would certainly prevent it from engaging.

Since these clutches are designed to slip on a routine basis, the excessive heat buildup (like that in a torque converter) could take out the seals, causing a major leak. The fluid drive can't function with the fluid.

If your fan spins freely through 5 full rotations, the fluid is probably gone.

Joel ....

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candoarms
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2009-01-07          159156


Earthwrks,

500 bucks, huh?

I have a few part numbers available to me, depending on your exact Engine VIN, but none of them are much over 200 dollars.

2003 DODGE RAM 2500 PICKUP 5.9L 359cid L6 DIESEL FI Turbo
Dorman Part Number 622003
Price = $206.79 + shipping
Source = rockauto.com

Factory part number = 52028879AD
Dealer Price = $257.00

Torque specs =
Fan to clutch bolts = 17 lb. ft.
Fan/clutch assembly to engine fan hub = 24 lb. ft.

Joel ....

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earthwrks
Join Date: Dec 2003
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2009-01-07          159157


I need to look closer but mine which was onnly uiused in '03 is a thermo-controlled viscous fan--no wires but I'll check. '04 uses the electric clutch so I'm wonderin if I could find one (which I've had no luck so far) and retrofit. I'll get the VIN later today.

I can spin it by hand (didn't count), but more disconerting is the sound it makes--like crunching nuts and bolts like a garbage disposer. This is my assessment based on me taking the drive belt off, checking the lower tensioner and pulley, and the removing the top idler and lubing it, checking water pump, power steering, alt.

At idle I can stop the fan by hand (did it carefully) and rotate it backward. ....

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hardwood
Join Date: Dec 2002
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2009-01-07          159158


Joel; I have a friend whom along with his brother operate a pretty good sized farm, truck, and auto tire outlet. Last time I walked thru their shop there were probably a dozen signs hung where no enployee could say he didn't see it. They all read "All lug bolts or nuts WILL be hand tightened with a torque wrench according to book specs". Seems they ruined too many high dollar wheels and warped too many brake discs with the air wrenches. Frank. ....

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earthwrks
Join Date: Dec 2003
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2009-01-07          159160


Frank: I've had the opposite happen where the air supply was bad and the air impact didn't tighten the nuts and the wheel nearly came off driving. ....

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candoarms
Join Date: Mar 2007
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2009-01-07          159161


Frank,

Until they make an air wrench that positively displays the applied torque readings, I won't be trusting them.

All bolts are tightened by hand, using a quality torque wrench. I can't tell you how many different styles and types of torque wrenches I have around here, but I find a need for another one nearly every year.

Most specs now call for a degree meter torque wrench. For example, "Tighten the bolt to 87 lb. ft, then turn another 22 degrees." Oh boy. More wrenches.....and a bigger tool box!

Joel ....

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earthwrks
Join Date: Dec 2003
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2009-01-07          159162


When I wrote service manuals the drafts were to be approved by the release engineer. We had a feeling the engineers weren't even reading them so we writers put in torque specs that went: Tighten until it breaks then backoff 1/4 turn. (Not)Amazingly they got approved!

Joel, what or how do those colored dumbells work I see at tire shops for torquing wheel nuts? Are they reliable? ....

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Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999
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2009-01-07          159164


Jeff, most of the guys around here have converted their Goat trucks to electric fans, far more reliable and a bunch cheaper. Plus they can be setup to keep running for a bit after the truck is shut down to prevent residual heat build up.

If you want I can ask what they get them from, I know it's two fans from some import. One of my employees has a truck so modified.

Best of luck. ....

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candoarms
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2009-01-07          159165


Earthwrks,

Those torque wrench extensions are color coded according to the amount of measured maximum torque each is capable of producing. It depends on the metallurgy (chemical composition) involved.

Some metals are softer, and therefore twist a bit more than others. This twisting effectively reduces the maximum amount of torque the extension can apply to a bolt.....preventing TOO MUCH torque from being applied.

Unfortunately, there is no sure way of knowing for sure if the minimum recommended torque was ever reached. No matter which extension is used, the minimum torque applied is always suspect.

I always use the color rated at least one lower than my intended final torque specs. I then use a hand-held torque wrench for the final adjustment. This prevents a guy from having to turn a hand-held torque wrench several revolutions before reaching the desired value. I don't depend on them, but they do save a lot of time removing and replacing sockets, as they get a guy close to the desired final readings.

For extremely critical things, such as head bolts, intake manifold bolts, exhaust manifolds, etc....I don't use an air impact wrench at all. I always fear the possibility of stripping out the threads in an engine block.....especially aluminum blocks.

Joel ....

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auerbach
Join Date: Sep 2007
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2009-01-07          159170


Story for you.

I had my cheapie torque wrench calibrated against a precision one; it was right on. When the set torque is reached, you can keep reefing it but it just ratchets without further tightening.

Got new tires for my Supra. The tire jockey didn't notice that the rims (as well as the tires) are directional, and had to dismount and remount a couple of them. Feeling sorry for him, and wanting to ensure they weren't over-tightened, I offered to do the tightening. Set his really long wrench at 75 (he had some colored extensions but the lowest was too high), and tightened till I heard the click. To be sure, as I do with mine, I gave it another swing. Didn't know that his wrench does NOT free-wheel when the setting is reached. The sound of a wheelbolt twisting off is one I hope to never hear again. ....

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earthwrks
Join Date: Dec 2003
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2009-01-07          159171


Joel, here's my VIN: 3D7KU28C73G793021

I called the dealer and he ran the VIN and said the clutch is electric. I looked pretty well and found no evidence of an electric clutch which would have be to be on the engine and resisted by a some sort of bracket. No wires around this area nor through the front of the fan. The drive pulley feels to be hollow--no coil or anything behind or inside the pulley resembling a clutch.

Here's the stack-up order looking front the front: Fan, then a black, thin metal, cupped "cereal-bowl" looking bezel affair that appears to capture/hold/cup/surround the aluminum-finned viscous clutch, then the pulley drive shaft. This is different than some fan drives in that the clutch is what you see first from the front, then the fan, then the drive pulley.

None of the Dodge web sites that sell parts show an accurate picture of the clutch---electric or otherwise. ....

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kwschumm
Join Date: Feb 2003
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2009-01-07          159172


Quote:
Originally Posted by auerbach | view 159170
To be sure, as I do with mine, I gave it another swing. Didn't know that his wrench does NOT free-wheel when the setting is reached. The sound of a wheelbolt twisting off is one I hope to never hear again.


Ouch. :( Very interesting though, I've never seen a torque wrench that ratchets once the set torque is reached. I've got beam wrenches, click wrenches, and a Snap-on dial wrench and none of them do that. ....

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candoarms
Join Date: Mar 2007
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2009-01-07          159173


Earthwrks,

You might be one of the lucky ones........

The manual I have shows the clutch going into the front of the fan. If you look at the front of the fan, the clutch is the first thing visible.

NOW.........

There's a BIG WARNING note in the manual mentioning that some vehicles have a reverse rotation fan. If your fan is one of these, it should be marked with the word "REVERSE" in bold letters. If so, you will need a reverse rotation viscous clutch to go with it.

Unfortunately, there is no diagram showing the reverse fan and clutch assembly setup. Therefore, I have no idea if this is what you have. However, I can tell you that your description of the assembly looks nothing like the photo in my manual.

You may have one of those orphans that come along between major design changes.

Joel ....

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candoarms
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2009-01-07          159174


Earthwrks,

I looked up your VIN number. Thanks for that. You have a 2003 Ram 2500 with the 5.9L straight 6 diesel.

When looking at the fan from the front of the truck, does your fan rotate clockwise or counterclockwise?

The picture in my manual shows your fan rotating counterclockwise, when viewed from the front....Clockwise when viewed from the driver's seat.


Joel ....

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candoarms
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2009-01-07          159175


Earthwrks,

Do you have air conditioning on your truck?

And are you sure your belt is routed correctly? If your belt is routed incorrectly, the viscous drive unit won't spin the fan.....even if it's working properly.

Just wondering.

Joel ....

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earthwrks
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2009-01-07          159176


Joel, yes AC and the snow plow prep package, with automatic and 4x4. Trailer tow package too.
The belt is the original with (yikes) 94,000 miles on it. The belt was never really removed when I did the pulleys--I simply relieved the tensioner, lifted the belt off/away and left it in place. Fan spins counterclockwise facing it. I did come across something on the Net about '03's made before Jan.' 03 had a different fan clutch---but I'm not sure I read it right NOR do I know the build date (which is encoded in the VIN?). Today was fairly cold in the mid-20's when I started the engine. It sat overnite, so I tried to spin the fan by hand before starting it. The fan had some resistance and would only spin maybe half- to three-quarter turn. However when I started and idled it for about 3 minutes I could see the fan slowing down even though engine RPMs were stable. It wasn't as noisey with all the crunching sounds when it's warmed up. ....

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candoarms
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2009-01-07          159181


Earthwrks,

Well, you've lost me here. It seems that you have the standard fan and clutch shown in my manuals, but your description of it is quite different than the pictures I see on this end.

Oh......and there's nothing wrong with having a belt with 95,000 miles on it. Belts can last a very long time. It might not be a bad idea to keep a new belt in the toolbox, however. Better yet, someplace where it won't get chewed up.....maybe under the back seat?

I really wish I could help you find the clutch you need, but I'm afraid this one is something my manuals simply don't cover.

And here I thought I had a winner. First problem I face, I can't solve it. Life is like that for me quite often, it seems.

Joel ....

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earthwrks
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2009-01-07          159186


Thanks Joel. ....

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earthwrks
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2009-01-07          159189


Murf, yes please ask you employee about his set up.

Flex-a-lite has a system they want over $500 using two fans. ....

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Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999
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2009-01-08          159203


Quote:
Originally Posted by earthwrks | view 159189
Murf, yes please ask you employee about his set up.Flex-a-lite has a system they want over $500 using two fans.


Ok, I had to go in this morning to do a few things and caught him at the shop.

It seems the conversion is simple and straight-forward, BUT (there's always a but, isn't there?) you can't do the electric fan conversion if your rig ends up at 18k # GCVW for towing etc., since the electric fans can't make enough CFM's to adequately cool the drive train under big loads.

You are stuck with a mechanical fan of some form.

His suggestion though was to skip the clutch fan and go to a flex type fan instead. It's about the same money as a stock fan will be, but will be a lifetime thing instead of replacing it every couple of years.

Best of luck. ....

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candoarms
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2009-01-08          159205


Murf,

You're right, Sir....there always seems to be a catch.

I wonder if there isn't a way to fasten the two clutch halves permanently together..... completely eliminating the slip function.

A heavy towing rig is going to need to have the fan engaged most of the time anyway. I'd be very tempted to find a way to drive that fan 100% of the time. During cold weather, I'd install something to reduce the amount of cold air passing through the radiator.

The fuel mileage might drop a little bit, but a guy can buy a lot of fuel for the money needed to replace that clutch.

Joel ....

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Murf
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2009-01-08          159206


Quote:
Originally Posted by candoarms | view 159205
I wonder if there isn't a way to fasten the two clutch halves permanently together..... completely eliminating the slip function. A heavy towing rig is going to need to have the fan engaged most of the time anyway.


Joel, the problem is that over about 35 mph the fan is actually spinning slow enough that the air coming through it is slower than the forward speed of the vehicle, in other words it is restricting the air flow, not boosting it.

The whole idea behind clutch fans is that they can be cycled on & off so that they are either 'helping or getting out of the way' and not restricting the air flow and creating unnecessary loads on the engine.

Flex fans work on a different principle, the blade is able to lay flat when not required and just spin, creating very little drag.

Electric fans just spin free when not powered.

Best of luck. ....

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candoarms
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2009-01-08          159209


Murf,

Maybe it's just me. I don't adapt well to new things.

My old trucks deliver power to the fan blade at all times, and I've never had any problems with any of them.

Don't get me wrong......I work on my old trucks all the time. I recently replaced a leaking gas tank on one, as well as the brakes and a few bushings. But, that truck has over 250,000 miles on it.

Certain things must be replaced over time, but I see a whole lot of newer vehicles in the repair shops these days.....with fewer than 50,000 miles on them.

I do a lot of head-scratching. No wonder I'm bald. hehehe.

Joel ....

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kwschumm
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2009-01-08          159210


Quote:
Originally Posted by candoarms | view 159209
Certain things must be replaced over time, but I see a whole lot of newer vehicles in the repair shops these days.....with fewer than 50,000 miles on them.I do a lot of head-scratching.No wonder I'm bald. hehehe.Joel


Yeah, too many new vehicles use complexity just for the sake of complexity. That's one of the things I hate about hybrids. A guy at work bought a Lexus that uses electric door handles - instead of pulling a simple mechanical handle it uses a switch in the door handle to activate an electric latch to open the door. Yech. ....

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Murf
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2009-01-08          159213


Quote:
Originally Posted by kwschumm | view 159210
Yeah, too many new vehicles use complexity just for the sake of complexity.


I sooooo agree!

I do however find that as I get older (hehehe) I really appreciate the 'little things' they automate in the vehicles these days.

My day-to-day ride, the SUV has a bunch of those nifty little things I just can't wait to fail;

The wipers that have an infrared sensor in the windshield, if something is hitting the window the wipers come on, and in proportion to your speed and the amount of rain, snow, etc., coming down. If you stop, they do also. No squeaky wipers at a red light.

The headlights come on automatically at a preset level of ambient light, and will lower the high-beams when you meet another vehicle.

If you turn on the rear window defogger, it also heats the outside rear views.

The list goes on and on.

Now if it would only remind me what it was I went to the store to get....... LOL

Joel, there was nothing wrong with fans that don't free wheel, but in an effort to gain fuel mileage and optimize cooling, they went the way of the no-draft window.

Best of luck. ....

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earthwrks
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2009-01-08          159214


I did see that 18,000 GCVW was the advertised max for the electric fans across the board.

I didn't do a lot of research on the flexfans though but need to.

A direct-couple is available for Fords using the old fan I saw. A direct fan uses a purported 20-30 HP right off the top, and 2-3 MPG. ....

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PILOON
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2009-01-24          159781


On my 6.2L GMC the fan clutch failed.
Simply drilled a couple of holes and ran 1/4" bolts to permanantly lock it fixed.
Ran that way 'til I sold it 3 years later.
That was a plow truck and she kinda ran hot most times anyway so didn't matter.
The 2 bolts was to make it closer to balanced. ....

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earthwrks
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2009-01-24          159783


Thanks for the input--that is my next step before a new one. ....

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bvance
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2009-02-21          160479


Murf,

Not to get way off topic here, but my wife's Lexus automatic wipers are activiated by light refraction. The sensor mounted inside the window behind the rear-view mirror measures light refraction through a water drop and activates the wipers. And of course a computer chip monitors amount and frequency of moisture and controls the activaton and speed of the wiper.

Not sure as to your vehicle manufacturer, but I think most automatic wipers work on the light refraction principal.

Brian

....

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bvance
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2009-02-21          160480


Murf,

Upon further review....

We are both right. Here is an explanation I found on line:

The sensor projects infrared light into the windshield at a 45-degree angle. If the glass is dry, most of this light is reflected back into the sensor by the front of the windshield. If water droplets are on the glass, they reflect the light in different directions -- the wetter the glass, the less light makes it back into the sensor.

After I posted my previous comment, I got to thinking...Murf is never wrong and could I be wrong? So I went to the web and found the above explanation.

This reminds me of what my fishing buddy always says: I have only been wrong once in my life....and that's when I just THOUGHT I was wrong.

Please forgive me questioning you :)

Brian



....

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earthwrks
Join Date: Dec 2003
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2009-02-21          160481


Or, "I've never been wrong. Okay, once, but I was just mistaken" ....

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Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999
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2009-02-23          160528


Quote:
Originally Posted by bvance | view 160480
I got to thinking...Murf is never wrong and could I be wrong? So I went to the web and found the above explanation. This reminds me of what my fishing buddy always says:I have only been wrong once in my life....and that's when I just THOUGHT I was wrong.Please forgive me questioning you :)Brian


Not at all Brian, in fact I have been wrong many times.

As just one example, I'm on my third wife. ;)

LOL


Best of luck. ....

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