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How to determine hydraulics flow direction

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earthwrks
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 3853 Home Office in Flat Rock, Michigan
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2008-01-01          149775


I have a backhoe that I need to figure out where and how the flow is going. There are critcal parts missing like two bypass valves, the original pumps, etc.

I've tried cracking lines to no avail. I priced in-line flow indicators and way too expensive.

I'm hoping there is some trick way--like an external current checker for voltage works.

Any ideas?

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How to determine hydraulics flow direction

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kwschumm
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 5764 NW Oregon
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2008-01-01          149777


Just a guess, but maybe you could measure the hose diameter with calipers. Maybe the hoses on the high pressure side would expand more than those on the low pressure side. ....

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How to determine hydraulics flow direction

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hardwood
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 3583 iowa
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2008-01-01          149781


EW; Maybe I'm just a bit too thick in the shell to understand what you are up to but. Can't you determine from which way the cylinder is moving which end the flow is going in to make it either lengthen or contract? I know sometimes when a half dozen hoses go inside a hoe boom it can be hard to determine which one comes out the other end that you are looking for too. "Splain yerself a bit", (That's Iowegan talk.) Frank. ....

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How to determine hydraulics flow direction

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earthwrks
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 3853 Home Office in Flat Rock, Michigan
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2008-01-01          149784


The backhoe was running great until I ran the reservoir out of fluid (there were some cylinder leaks that have since been repaired). So the pump was shot. I took it to a supposed "hydraulic shop". I told the guy I wanted to upgrade to a larger pump volume as the hoe and loader weren't really as fast as they could be. I wanted about a 35-40% speed increase.

When I picked the machine up two weeks later the owner's sons had used it to work around their property, got it stuck and yanked it out with a 10-ton hi-lo by one front whell and pulled off the spindle---but didn't tell me that until I the bill for the repair.

Anywho, they removed my shot double-pump, replaced it with a much higher volume single pump---removed other lines, installed others in their place and installed a variable vloume valve and a different bypass valve. This left the machine not twice as fast but twice as slow. And the power steering valve now blows out fluid sometimes, and cause the wheels to turn on their own! I tried to un-do or reverse engineer what they did to no avail. Luckily I saved some of the parts they removed, but don't know where excatly they go or how they work. Several other shops in the area I took the parts to had no idea what the parts do.

The problem I have is that when the operator seat is removed I have a clear view of the plumbing that goes from the pump to the hoe and from the pump to the front up until it goes under the dash. That's where it gets tangled in a mess of steel tubing that goes to the loader valve and svearl that branch off or routed from and to the loader valve, to the reservoir and include the power steering unit.

I have other so-called hydraulic guys look at as they want a "blank check" to look at it. Upon further discussion these guys have no clue at what they were looking at but were "willing to give it a shot" for $50-75 an hour. Not in THIS life :)

So, I'm thinking of trying to isolate each system from each other and connect my skid steer remotely and power the hydraulics separately. But my main concern is the parts were removed---what they do and where they go.

....

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How to determine hydraulics flow direction

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hardwood
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 3583 iowa
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2008-01-01          149789


EW; Was the original double pump meant to power the steering, brakes, power shift tranny of the tractor, if so equiped, seperately form the hoe and loader? I think that if that was the case with the double pump you either need to start over with a double pump or some sort of flow directional valve that regulates how much flow and at what pressure goes where. Possibly this is the cause of your power steeting problem?? Somebody somewhere must have a hydraulic schematic of the original layout, perhaps that may be your next move??? Just my rambling thoughts. good luck. Frank. ....

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How to determine hydraulics flow direction

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earthwrks
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 3853 Home Office in Flat Rock, Michigan
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2008-01-01          149791


Frank the backhoe was made a company called The General Machienry Company of Witchita, Kansas. It's called a 210 General. It was the precursor to the Davis Machine Co. and Case-Davis trenchers--the owner of General was the son of Davis. Scatback loaders use some of the parts including the actual loader arms. There are no known parts or diagrams available. It appears to made like the old AMC cars of old---they used off the shelf parts like: the rear axle is a narrowed Dana 60, the trans is really a HD Jeep 2-speed transfer case connected to a hydro motor. The steering is similar to a hi-lo's. The steering cicuit is plumbed in-line with the loader valve so it gets the same supply but runs through some sort of a valve to reduce pressure and volume. The hydraulic shop installed a manually adjustable valve so that the steering would work but then everything else shut down.

How's about I put it on a trailer and send it your way? You should have it figured out come Spring I reckon? ....

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How to determine hydraulics flow direction

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hardwood
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 3583 iowa
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2008-01-01          149792


EW; Serious as an undertaker for a change, If had about 500 other jobs caught up that sounds like a fun project. With enough time, a Surplus Center catalog, and your unlimited repair budget, I see no reason it couldn't be done. My biggest roadblock would be explaing to the Mrs. why I'm working on someone elses stuff again, instead of building her new bedroom set, kitchen table, computer desk, disposing of the rusting "H" Farmalls out in the grove that have followed me home like lost puppys. Really given enoughy time and study it shouldn't be that tough to do. Best of luck. Frank. ....

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How to determine hydraulics flow direction

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bvance
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 280 The Great Pacific NorthWet, Olympia, WA
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2008-01-01          149793


EW,

Perhaps just overstating the obvious here, but what about taking the hoe back to the folks that screwed it up and tell them to do it right? They would at least know which hoses are doing what.

Brian ....

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How to determine hydraulics flow direction

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earthwrks
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 3853 Home Office in Flat Rock, Michigan
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2008-01-01          149795


Vance:

Here's my situation:
You go in for a knee operation. You wake up and they cut the other leg off. Would ya really wanna let 'em try it again?

After spending an entire day in their shop with these a___holes trying to redo what they did in their shop, they wanted another shot at it (for more money). Uh-uh. Then they sent ME a bill for $450 for fixing MY front spindle that THEY broke, and another $850 for parts and labor the first go around. I told 'em to sue me. They didn't. ....

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How to determine hydraulics flow direction

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bvance
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 280 The Great Pacific NorthWet, Olympia, WA
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2008-01-01          149804


EW,

I figured it was probably something like you described, but thought I would ask anyway. Glad to hear you didn't pay them. I hope you find a way to fix your hoe.

Brian ....

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How to determine hydraulics flow direction

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auerbach
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 2168 West of Toronto
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2008-01-02          149809


The fact they've not pursued their repair claim suggests they know they don't have a case. Now you could take them to Small Claims Court for whatever damages you can make a case for, up to the before-repair value of the machine less its present scrap value. (Of course, filing a claim is not the same as winning it, and winning is not the same as collecting.)

I don't know of a consumer-level flow meter. You can easily plumb in low-cost pressure gauges wherever you want, but that's a bit like trying to measure amperage with a voltmeter. ....

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How to determine hydraulics flow direction

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kthompson
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 5223 South Carolina
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2008-01-02          149810


HW, maybe EW and you could swap work.

EW, a few off the wall thoughts...got a friend who worked on airplane hydraulics? Have had one or two tell how great they are at problem solving.

If you are trying to track hoses on a running machine, how about a stethoscope? Or one of those thermometer that you point and shot so to speak. The hose with fluid running through it should be a little warmer. You may could tell the hoses being used with your touch but a good thermometer should be able to tell you the slight difference between the fluid leaving the pump and after it has run through a circuit and cooled (I think it would) some.

Last suggestion is one learned here from the Mafia...insurance. kt
....

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How to determine hydraulics flow direction

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Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999
Posts: 7155 Toronto Area, Ontario, Canada
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2008-01-02          149816


EW, there is a sort of flow meter, it's relatively cheap, and easy, but it could take a LONG time to work.

Put the machine outside overnight in this balmy weather we're experiencing right now, with a block heater and several magnetic heaters on the reservoir plugged in. Start the machine up and let it sit at a fast idle for 20 -30 minutes, then with a helper at the controls, and a decent infra-red thermometer or camera in hand, slowly start moving controls. The hydraulic oil will be considerably warmer than the lines and valves are, you will see the oil flow in the form of temperature changes as it flows through the system.

If you don't want to do it that way, the get a bottle of dye to put in the reservoir and a black light. Cracking lines will show you the dye as it reaches each leak in turn.

Best of luck. ....

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How to determine hydraulics flow direction

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earthwrks
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 3853 Home Office in Flat Rock, Michigan
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2008-01-02          149834


Thank's all! Even Kenny. :)

I'm thinking I can connect an air supply in place of the hdyraulic fluid. That way I can disconnect a line and see which way it's coming out rather than have fluid all over the place. It probably won't tell me how a relief or bypass works into the system though. But it's a start. ....

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How to determine hydraulics flow direction

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kthompson
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 5223 South Carolina
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2008-01-03          149845


EW, I did think about using air but wondered about draining the lines and all the fittings you would end up loosing or I think you would. To me, a none leaking fitting is something NOT to bother.

Hey did hear about a real financial success from Katrina last evening. Thought of you. Guy from this area made enough he built 7,600 heated sq ft house for him and wife. That is almost as large as Murf's basement. kt ....

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How to determine hydraulics flow direction

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Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999
Posts: 7155 Toronto Area, Ontario, Canada
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2008-01-03          149846


Hey I represent that remark!! ;)

My house isn't that big, I just have a dozen or so less people living there than it was designed for. :)

But hey, there's advantages, I can get away with having a ride-on vacuum, and when my good lady tells me to get lost, or go for a walk, I don't even have to go outside.

That and I can fly my radio-controlled stuff inside on crappy days. :)

Best of luck. ....

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