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TC33 won t start -- sometimes

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JDLutey
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 21 Nebraska
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2006-01-17          122925


I have a TC33-D that won’t start / won’t crank – SOMETIMES. At times it starts perfect, but sometimes it goes CLUNK – down on the left, at the starter, at the solenoid.

What I do is I turn the key, (part way) watch and wait for the glow plug light to go out, and then turn the key to “start position”. What happens, (when it fails) is that it goes CLUNK, but won’t crank. If you forget one of the “safe switches” .. like still have the PTO engaged, or don’t have the “transfer case” in Neutral, it won’t go CLUNK at all.

If you try again (it doesn’t seem to matter whether you turn it clear off and do another glow plug cycle or not) … sometimes 4 or 5 times, it might crank and start. NOTE, the battery is fine: (1.) I replaced it a couple of months ago, and (2.) if I watch the voltage at the high side of the solenoid (from the batt.), it’s 12.4 at first, pulls down to 11.9 while the glow plugs are on, then back to 12.3 and then down to 12.1 as I try the “start position”. NOTE 2., one can hold the key in the “start position” for maybe 5 to 6 seconds at a time – long enough to take a voltage measurement – but any longer than that and it’ll cost you a #5 plug-in-type fuse on the fuse panel. There’s obviously current through the solenoid coil.

Again, what happens, is that it goes CLUNK, but won’t crank. I WAS 99% sure that the CLUNK was the solenoid being pulled in. I could measure the voltage at the bottom of the solenoid – the lug to the starter -- and there was nothing on the CLUNK / fail to start tries, and (obviously) DID have 10-12v when cranking and starting. I thought the solenoid contacts must be bad, scarred up, intermittent, so I replaced it.

She started 3 times in a row, but then … CLUNK again. It CLUNKED 3-4 times, then started – same as before. Now, (I should have before, obviously) I have put a VM (VoltMeter) on the small violet “start/crank” lead that goes to the solenoid – the one labeled “HM17 V-1.0” on the schematic. It has no voltage till you “crank” it. Then it goes only to about 6v when the CLUNK / no crank happens. It has to be pulling the plunger SOME – you hear it and feel it as well – but not enough to smash the electrical contactor part. On enough tries, it finally will hit greater than 10 (not a full 12v, and hard to tell – it “spikes” with the field in the solenoid) and the thing cranks and starts!

So what’s the deal? Do I have a bad – high resistance relay – or what? I’ve looked at the group under the right side cover – the ones that I labeled 3, 4, and 5 (from the left – nearest the steering wheel) are all the same exact (Bosch) part number. They look to include the PTO safety and the Neutral start safety relays – I swapped them around a couple of different ways and it makes no difference.

Anybody have any idea what the cause might be?

Oh .. one more point. I’ve used an ammeter as a test lead and if I put battery 12v directly on the solenoid start lead – the one labeled “HM17 V-1.0” on the schematic – it starts every single try (assuming that the key is on)! Plus I can measure the current pulled by the solenoid coil (7-9 amp fyi … it “spikes up” and is hard to read for sure)


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BillMullens
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 649 Central West Virginia
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2006-01-18          122948


I'd look for a bad wire or corroded connection on the ground side.

My next guess would have been a bad relay, but you already switched them around.

If it wasn't for the lack of voltage on the no-starts, I would have said look for a mechanical cause...mouse nest in the flywheel housing or starter bad.

Hopefully oneace will chime in.

Good luck,
Bill ....

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TC33 won t start -- sometimes

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oneace
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 1490 south central pa
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2006-01-18          123001


You have a bad starter. The clunk is the solenoid engaging but the contacts (brushes)in the could be going bad and have to be n the sweet spot. Could also be the armature. Best way t tell will be to pull it off and do a bench test. If you have an auto electric shop near you they can rebuild it a lot cheaper than you can get one from the dealer. Usually around $100 to $150. I think that starter from the dealer will run around $250. ....

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agriman
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 23 TN
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2006-01-20          123136


Your problem is related to low voltage. Some of the newer NH/CIH 33 an 29 hp Compacts seem to be having this problem.

The symptoms leads you to think it's starter related and replacing the starter will improve the problem for a short time.

The voltage drop is most likely coming from the glow plug relay.

The proper fix will be to add a circuit Breaker to the start circuit.

Contact your local dealer he should be able to provide you with additional information on the problem.

I think the parts and instructions are now available from your local dealer. It's a fairly straight forward installation or I’m sure the dealer will be glad to do it for you.

If you have any problems let me know.. ....

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TC33 won t start -- sometimes

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JDLutey
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 21 Nebraska
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2006-01-20          123145


Thanks all.

OneAce, I've read your posts, and I hoped you'd see this. I really respect your opinion, BUT it doesn't seem to be the starter.

Like I said, I bypassed the whole string of safety relays, going from raw 12v to the solenoid "pull and start" lead -- at first with an ammeter. It starts every time if I do that. Just like it does IF the HM17 lead goes to 10v or better. It's just when the HM17 lead is at 6v or so that it goes CLUNK and won't crank. (AND, I've got 3 voltmeters, and have pur one on the batt. during all this too -- the batt. stays at 12v or better during the CLUNK. It is not the batt.)

In fact, i got PO'd and put in a toggle switch (from some fuse -- i forget the # but it is ign. switched and feeds only yhe "aux light kit") to the HM17-V-1.0 lead. I use the key start if it works ... if not, if i get the CLUNK, THEN I try the toggle switch abd it works every time.

I really think it's in the safety switch / relay crap. There's gotta be a high resistance point someplace -- intermittantly. It's just an SOB to find .. I hate to keep cutting into the wire harness to test, and if you hold the key too long, it pops a fuse.

JL ....

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oneace
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 1490 south central pa
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2006-01-21          123157


Pull the relays one by one and try to start. ....

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JDLutey
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 21 Nebraska
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2006-01-29          123728


and that'll tell me what? I've already swapped the 3 identical ones around. What i labeled as # 3,4 & 5 (counting from the left) look to be "neutral start" (#1 on the print), "glow plug power" (#3), and "PTO safety start" (#2)... based on the wires to them. They ARE identical, even tho "glow plug power" looks to be different on the print. That one doesn't look like it'd matter (assuming the engine was warm) ... it obviously wouldn't crank if the others were out. except that my "bypass switch" works great with ALL those 3 relays out. J ....

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TC33 won t start -- sometimes

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poorfarm
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2006-03-17          126211


I had the same problem from the day I purchased my TC33D. I replaced the started yesterday - after 3 years of fiddling with everything else. I had a defective starter.

The new starter solved the problem. ....

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nhman
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2006-03-23          126591


the problem is usually a low voltage problem at the start wire. we at the dealership are using a relay and use voltage from the starter to excite it by a extra relay and this solves it. ....

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wrs01a
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 2 Montana
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2006-04-20          128072


My TC21 is doing exactly the same thing, except it doen't clunk it either gets a full 12vdc and starts or 0vdc and nothing happens. If I jumper 12vdc to the starter solonid it starts EVERY time. I'm waiting for a wiring diagram to get deeper into the diagnostics, meanwhile it is being started with a remote switch. It appears to me to be a faulty starter relay, which I'll try next. I'll let you know if / when I get it figured out. ....

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JDLutey
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 21 Nebraska
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2006-04-25          128245


"poorfarm" & "wrs01a" & "nhman"

Thanks, guys. I THOUGHT I had my TC-33 "fixed" a couple of months ago ... I THOUGHT it was just a "high resistance" connection on one of the two switches within the "transmission case". You lay under it and on the left side -- basically below the levers -- are the connectors from the "neutral" switch and the PTO switch. They are "push-in" or "bullet plugs". I thought one was maybe loose, because it started fine for a couple of months (altho it was only used 3-4 times) BUT then it failed again -- CLUNK, but no crank. Without touching anything, I un-taped my "bypass switch" and it started perfect!!

Since then I've decided it MIGHT be in the "neutral start" switch ... like sometimes it makes enough, and other times it's high resistance (and hence the low volts to the solenoid). I THINK I've got it to crank after woggling the lever back and forth. In any case it sure ain't the starter -- It goes EVERY time with my "bypass switch"

JDL. ....

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treeman
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 251 Wisconsin
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2006-04-26          128357


It seems you have a restriction for amp draw to turn the starter sometimes. The tc-33 is known for acid leakage around the caps. Just be sure your cables don't have acid rot in them. If half the strands are rotted the amperage would be enough to activate the solonoid but not turn the starter. Just like having a loose cable. ....

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JDLutey
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 21 Nebraska
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2006-04-26          128403


thanks treeman, but go to the starting message -- new batt, etc. It cranks AND starts fine IF the solenoid gets pulled by full voltage. Even started at 15 below this winter.

I'm now 99% sure it's a high resistance closure at times in the neutral safe switch. ALWAYS starts with my "bypass switch" ....

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hankey
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 1 Virginia
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2006-10-11          135880


Have you figured it out yet? I have a Tc-33 that blows the 10 amp fuse every time I try to start it. If I have a charger hooked up to it, it will start every time. I have read that maybe a breaker type fuse will help. What do you think??
....

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JDLutey
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 21 Nebraska
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2006-10-12          135910


Hank, Well, no change.
SOMEtimes it starts fine ... other times the "CNS" ... Clunk No Start ... happens. BUT as above -- (on 4-26) -- it will ALWAYS start if I use my "bypass switch".

It MIGHT actually be affected by the battery voltage. The "nominal voltage" is 12v ... but you can have a "surface charge" on a battery right after charging (and CHARGE is usually 13.5 or better) that might be as high as 12.8 or 13. Mine will almost always RE-start without the CNS if I've been running it, and then shut it off for a few minutes. The higher "surface charge" might be enough -- just as your charger is -- to overcome the high resistance problem in the protective relay crap ... if you have the same prob as mine does.

Mine will blow the little fuse if I HOLD the key for more than about 6 to 7 seconds in the CNS condition -- like it's trying to pull the soleniod in (the clunk) but not far enough to hit the electrical contacts. BUT, if it doesn't crank, I know it right away and let the key up.

Sometimes it'll crank on the 2nd or 3rd try -- but fuse OK UNLESS I hold the key.

Some day I MIGHT get new PTO and NEUT switches and try those -- but I'm used to my bypass switch.

JL ....

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TC33 won t start -- sometimes

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nhuser
Join Date: Jan 2018
Posts: 6 OK
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2018-01-20          197431


Well it looks like I'm several years late to this thread but I'm having the same problem. Turn ignition switch to start, starter solenoid just clicks, won't turn engine. Try two or three times more finally will start. New battery, cleaned cable connectors, rebuilt starter (works fine at the repair shop). When Voltage on control wire that pulls in solenoid is 7volts or above, solenoid fully engages and starts tractor. When solenoid just clicks and doesn't turn starter, the voltage on control wire is 5 volts. Checked every cotton pickin safety interlock switch on there plus all relays. Still Can't see why control voltage is sometimes too low on solenoid. If ignition switch is held in more that about three seconds in start position and starter doesn't turn then a 7.5 A fuse is blown. If starter is turning but engine not yet running it doesn't blow the 7.5 A fuse. Somewhere I'm loosing enough voltage to fully engage the solenoid but can't find it in this complicated mess before the 7.5 A fuse blows. Anyone come up with an answer? Sure would appreciate any help. I can bypass all the safety switches, etc putting 12 volts directly on the solenoid control terminal and it works but don't like by passing the safety switches. Thanks! ....

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JDLutey
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 21 Nebraska
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2018-01-21          197432


I'll be darned ... this sent me a message !! Well, My BOOMER is still running perfect -- BUT I still think all those safety relays suck. I DO/DID hate to bypass some ,,,, But I even went further.

My IGNITION SWITCH went crappy once -- first it was intermittent, then BAD 90% of the time. I tore it apart -- was gonna burnish the contacts of clean it (they are supposed to be "Dust magnets". The damn thing was partially MELTED !!! Like overcurrent somehow !! (and I AM an electronic tech ... 4 years USAF and 34 years with the local power company) I went and bought a NEW switch -- and sealed it up with silicone and tape to keep it clean. All was well for a couple of years and the NEW switch started crapping out. Start sometimes, and it you HELD it in the start position, -- with no cranking -- more than 4 or 5 sec, it'd blow a fuse !!!

I said the heck with THAT and put in a 20a rated toggle switch -- down below on the black plastic "dashboard". That's been 4 or 5 years and it's just fine still. TOGGLE switch to on, another "Pushbutton switch" that I added on the left side to start ... and it's all fine.

I STILL have the neutral relay and the seat relay working. IDK, but I think the tractor itself is great, but the electrical sucks

AND be certain you have the correct manual ... mine came with one that was for an earlier version, and it took me a couple years to figure that out -- the electrical prints were just NOT what was on the tractor. JL ....

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nhuser
Join Date: Jan 2018
Posts: 6 OK
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2018-01-22          197434


JL, thanks so much for your response. I didn't think anyone from the original thread years ago would still be signed up.Surprise, surprise
.
Well I don't feel so bad now that you have told me your technical background. I have a BS degree in Electronics and worked for 32 years as an electronics tech at the local Michelin Tire Plant. We had our own electronics repair shop at the plant which I ran for many years....so....I felt really dumb not being able to trace down the problem with my TC33D start problem. Probably like you, I tore that electrical interlock system down and still couldn't find the problem before blowing the 7.5 amp fuse.

I really like the tractor but as you said the the safety system sucks. I believe there is a design flaw but I'm sure New Holland won't own up to it.
I've had to replace the ignition switch also. I got a heavy duty one from my local Tractor Supply and it is working fine.

There is a black box module in that circuit that I "think" may be causing the problem. It's not shown on my schematic and there's no telling what it would cost to replace.
I think I'll try bypassing the module and keep all the safety switches in the active circuit and see what happens. I want to keep at least some of the safety switches active as you did.

I also got tired of replacing the expensive glow plug timer and by-passed it with a push button mounted on the dash. I just hold it in for about 3 or 4 seconds (the glow plug light comes on during this time) and then start. It works but it is too bad that you have to by-pass anything.

I'll be experimenting with the start problem when the weather warms a little. I made my own weather canopy over the seat area bolted to the ROPS so I can't remove it easily, otherwise I would park it in the garage to work on.

I'll post when I come up with something and thanks again for your response.
Dwane ....

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Hogslayer
Join Date: Jan 2018
Posts: 34 Northern michigan
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2018-01-25          197439


The problem you are having is very common and easy to fix. You are encountering a voltage drop going thru all the safety switches. By the time it reaches the starter it doesn't have enough power to engage the starter all the time.

As a kid we had the same problem with our 1955 John Deere combine. Never figured it out, just towed to start it. That was a pain!

My Cub cadet had the same problem. We rewired it such that the current going thru the safety interlocks tripped a relay going directly to the starter. That way it gets 12 volts for sure instead of 8 or 9. Problem went away for atleast c 10 years now. A wiring diagram for the Cadet is posted as the last picture in my Yooperpete profile. Got that years ago from another Tractorpoint member. I have been away from the forum maybe 4- 6 years and have joined as a new member with different handle. ....

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nhuser
Join Date: Jan 2018
Posts: 6 OK
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2018-01-26          197440


Thanks Hogslayer for your reply. That actually makes perfect sense. I should have thought of it myself, but, oh well, that's what happens when you get old I guess. I'm thinking about using a standard fully enclosed 12v auto relay as found at O'Rielly's. I've used them to control some high intensity 12 volt DC LED spot and flood lights mounted on my truck. I'm wondering if the 5 volts I sometimes get on the control wire to the solenoid is enough to activate the 12 volt relay. I'll have to experiment and see. If it does, great, if it doesn't then I may have to look for a 6 volt relay. But I'll get it working one way or another. Thanks so much for your help. Actually the heavy coil in the solenoid probably pulls the voltage down even further after going through all those interlocks, so without that load on the circuit the 12 volt relay should be sufficient. I'll find out. ....

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DennisCTB
Join Date: Nov 1998
Posts: 2644 NorthWest NJ
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2018-01-26          197441


Hey Hogslayer alias Yooper,

Good to see you... Hope all is well with you and the family.

If you want your old Handle let me know

Dennis ....

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DennisCTB
Join Date: Nov 1998
Posts: 2644 NorthWest NJ
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2018-01-26          197442


Here is the diagram

....

Picture Link

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Hogslayer
Join Date: Jan 2018
Posts: 34 Northern michigan
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2018-01-26          197443


Dennis, it has been a long time since visiting the forum. It may have been 6-8 years now that I think about it. Shut down Bad River a few years back, but still have my main engineering business.

Doing ok, slowed down just a little; my excuse is, will be 70 next summer. Still have my old faithful Cub Cadet. Am driving a 2015 Ram Laramie 1500 instead of the F250. Just bought a 2017 Ford explorer. Continue to like my American brand vehicles. Sold my old rental farmhouse about 10 years ago but kept the acreage and have another homestead of about 2 acres with large garden.

Got into hog hunting a few years back and still collecting guns. Have taken some good vacation trips when work allows.

Last weekend was at Niagara Falls-Canadian side. ....

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AnneReynolds
Join Date: Feb 2018
Posts: 2 Arcadia OK
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2018-02-02          197463


Wow. We have a tc35d that we were convinced had gremlins. We bypassed every safety and that helped, the original switch was put together badly, so we bought a new NH one. Helped for a little while, then gremlins again. There was no telling when it would refuse to start. Wiggled a relay, boom it would start, then another time we were convinced it was the 40amp fuse, then other tricks. FINALLY, we installed a $10 switch from Napa and have never had a problem since!

Another secret we just figured out. On our John Deere Gator, it was just clicking when we tried to start it. Basically, it was no longer getting quite the voltage it needed. We have a new starter/solenoid, newish battery, etc. we installed a "starting improvement relay kit" which prevents a voltage drop during starting. NO MORE CLICKING! Just VROOM!

I'm trying to let everyone know so they'll quit suffering. I'm so thankful to everyone else who takes the time to share. ....

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cutter
Join Date: Feb 2000
Posts: 1303 The South Shore of Lake Ontario, New York
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2018-02-03          197467


Good to hear you all are getting this worked out, been awhile.
....

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DennisCTB
Join Date: Nov 1998
Posts: 2644 NorthWest NJ
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2018-02-03          197468


Hey Cutter,

I was reminiscing about all of the members and I thought of you Cutter just this afternoon. I wonder how Cutter is doing these days ? Good to see you again.

Did you notice Yooperpete is now Hogslayer?

Dennis ....

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Hogslayer
Join Date: Jan 2018
Posts: 34 Northern michigan
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2018-02-03          197469


Hogslayer ....

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nhuser
Join Date: Jan 2018
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2018-03-12          197577


I added a 12DC 40A relay to the start circuit of my NH TC33D to overcome the start problem caused by low voltage to the start solenoid. Resistance in the safety switches resulted in the low voltage on wire HM17 V-1.0 ....

Picture Link

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nhuser
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2018-03-12          197578


Thanks for all the help to get this issue resolved. Much appreciated. The diagram I posted shows how I finally wired in the 12DC 40A automotive relay. All the safety switches are still in the circuit, didn't want to by-pass any. The relay supplies a good +12VDC to the solenoid. Now instead of clicking several times to start the tractor it starts up first time everytime. I also added an in line fuse holder with a 5 amp fuse from the +12VDC terminal shown in the diagram to the normally open contacts on the relay for safety. ....

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JDLutey
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 21 Nebraska
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2018-05-02          197722


Well, I guess I STARTED this thread -- like a decade ago. Our TC33 still has the "auxiliary” starter button that I put in there. I replaced the NH ignition switch once … at something like $45 … because the old one was intermittent. I tore it apart just to see – and it had MELTED DOWN. AND had dust / chaff in it !!

I put tape (Scotch 88 … I’m an old electrician) on the new one to seal it up. BUT within the year the new one was acting up as well. (fool me once – at $45 etc) SO I got a BIG (20 amp rating) toggle switch and just bypassed the ignition switch!! So there’s a switch down low on the panel that is ON … and another push button switch on the left side (covered by tape to make it water resistant). NO PROBLEMS since. So she’s been perfect for the last 8 or 9 years – except for the (hidden) gremlins that I’ve bypassed. (well, I just had a hydraulic hose on the loader fail – but at least that’s not electrical ;-) JL
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TC33 won t start -- sometimes

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tipoblanco
Join Date: Jan 2018
Posts: 29 ernul,nc
TractorPoint Premium Member -- 5 Tractors = Very Frequent Poster

2020-05-17          199187


i see this is a really old post but may help someone when trouble shooting,on my kioti i had a similar issue,start great 2-4 times then nothing,removed and cleaned evey elec connection,almost to the point of changing the starter,one day i was looking for the overfill plug for my transfer case and noticed a clutch swith,it was loose and floppy,so intermittently the switch would push in and it would make enough contact other times it wasnt in the correct position,i tightened the adjustment nut that puts it in the correct position and keeps it tight and not an issue in 2 years,you still in the pig hunt biz?ive been looking for a place to pig hunt day or night,set up with night vision,but either to far or outrageous pricing,you have a link to yours? ....

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TC33 won t start -- sometimes

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Hogslayer
Join Date: Jan 2018
Posts: 34 Northern michigan
TractorPoint Premium Member -- 5 Tractors = Very Frequent Poster

2020-05-18          199201


I did the relay thing many years ago and it starts every time. My Cub-Cadet is a 1994 model and is still running strong with no problems.

I enjoy Hog hunting. I'm from Michigan and the feral hog population is almost non- existent. The local game farms are like shooting domestic animals.

My best experience was with a guide service that can be found on "hogswat.com". They are located in about South Central Alabama. These guys were awesome. They only night hunt and they supply the guns and ammo along with their service. A hunt is $500.00 per night. My hunt was several years ago. At the time they were using Daniel Defense AR's using .223/.556 rifles with 75 grain bullets. The small caliber AR has almost no recoil, so fast follow-up shots are possible. Hogs go down very hard! Their thermal scopes were military grade Armasights.

The hogs are found in open fields that feed in cornfields and pecan orchards. They are definitely wild animals and are not caged or fenced in and are not gamey tasting.

I hunted toward the end of February. A bad winter storm blew thru the I-75 corridor and was -20 degrees in Michigan when I left. I-75 was snow covered and later snow and rain covered. Travel on I-75 was down to 35 mph nearly the entire way. Kentucky had 4 inches of snow with about 2" of rain on top. The following night I hunted, I-75 was shut down in Tennessee from ice.

My guide was Lee. The weather was overcast. If I got more than 30 feet behind Lee, I couldn't see him in the darkness. The thermal scope allowed me to clearly see beyond 300 yards.

Hogs can run about 35 mph. My first shot was a standing shot and nearly broadside toward my left about 100 yards and went thru its heart. It spun around running nearly perpendicular to me toward my right. The second was a lung shot. After that it ran directly away from me. At that point, target size was about the size of a 5 gallon pail bottom. It jigged and jagged while running and I hit it 3 more times. At about 100 yards away it flipped over and was dead. So, I was 5 for 5 in less than 10 seconds.

They generally recommend more than one evening hunt. I only hunted for one night. You should have multiple encounters. If you don't get one, you are a bad shot!

Lee drove an older 4 wheel drive van and we vehicle stalked around many farm fields and orchards. He had a thermal handheld monocle that was tethered to a screen near the rearview mirror mount of the windshield. So I could see what he was seeing as we searched.

Be careful of the many scam artists in Florida and Texas. The hogswat guys are awesome. You will be spoiled with the thermal scope. Hunting in the dark is difficult at first and requires some getting used to. ....

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