TC33D New Holland breaking in 2 at engine block: Back Hoe  -- Tractor Attachments Implements 3ph Discussion Forum and Review TC33D New Holland breaking in 2 at engine block: Back Hoe -- Tractor Attachments Implements 3ph Discussion Forum

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 10-11-2002, 17:52 Post: 43716
Stephen Brewer
2002-10-11 17:52:47
Post: 43716
 TC33D New Holland breaking in 2 at engine block

My TC33D has a NH loader (7308) and backhoe (757C). The tractor was 3 years old in August. I bought it specifically for what it is doing. I am a landscaper and that is what the tractor has always done. I ordered the tractor from the dealer in June of 1999 and I told him I had a 955 JD and I wanted the same machine specs except a NH. I was very happy with the machines capabilities and performance until the other day when, for no known reason it just broke the back completely off the engine block. The studs/bolts between the transmission and the engine were all still tight and intact, according to the dealer, upon inspection. The engine block itself actually broke. I was wondering if you ever heard of this happening before?? Also my email address is ashjon@nbnet.nb.ca if anyone is interested in emailing me directly on this. Thanks.






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 10-11-2002, 18:43 Post: 43719
jeff r



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 TC33D New Holland breaking in 2 at engine block

Stephen,

Was your backhoe 3 point mounted or mounted on a subframe?


Jeff R






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 10-12-2002, 08:15 Post: 43732
Stephen Brewer
2002-10-12 00:00:00
Post: 43732
 TC33D New Holland breaking in 2 at engine block

Re; My TC33D Breaking in two at the engine block. My Backhoe had a subframe mount that did not connect at the top link of the tph. In fact thge tph had to be removed in order for the backhoe to be installed. There is a whole seperate bracket. The bracket is bolted under the drawbar to the rear houseing and then the drwbar bracket is placed under that. The backhoe has a cross member in the subframe which slides into this bracket. The subframe also has two blracket which are bolted under the loader brackets to the block. The backhoe is quick attach but only to this frame and has nothing to do with the tph. Please reply. Thanks.






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 10-12-2002, 08:28 Post: 43733
TomG

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 TC33D New Holland breaking in 2 at engine block

That's an unfortunate one that I haven't heard before. I can easily see how the attachment of the bell-housing to an engine could end up being stronger than the block and that would be the result.

Unfortunate as it is, I think it also points out something very important. Despite the evolution of compacts into smallish 'do everything' equipment, a tractor still is designed mostly to pull things. They just aren't structurally anything like a dedicated backhoe.

Even more important is knowing that sub-frames don't make a tractor 'bomb-proof.' Sticking a couple of clamshells either side of the cases may spread the stress away from the top-link mount, but it doesn't necessarily spread the stress across the engine/bell housing joint. However, I believe that some sub-frame mounts do that. The design would be a little tricky though because cast parts don't deflect under load while mild and tempered alloy parts do. Mixing and matching cast and alloy parts for wide load ranges over time would be quite an engineering feat.

From some perspective, anything other than draft on the 3ph is alien to tractor design and might be considered abuse. Big powerful hoes (sub-frame or not) and big loaders which need heavy 3ph ballast to maintain balance all have potential for breaking a tractor in half.

I'm sorry it happened and I'm not suggesting that there was abuse of the tractor in this case or even excluding that there may have been a manufacturing defect. I am suggesting that maybe the uses of compacts have been inadvertently over-sold a bit. It's sort of similar to light truck commercials I used to see. 'BUILDS TOUGH TRUCKS' you'd hear and then see a 4wd 1/2-ton bouncing down a cliff. 'Lord' I used to think, I wonder how long they'd last if anybody actually drove them like that.






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 10-12-2002, 09:26 Post: 43741
TomG

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 TC33D New Holland breaking in 2 at engine block

Steven: I didn't see your description of the sub-frame before I replied. The sub-frame does sound like a type that tries to distribute stresses across the bell-housing joint.

I suppose there's little help now that it happened other than condolences. But my comments about mixing and matching alloy and cast parts probably apply. Iím reasonably certain that the engineering of such a thing would be very tricky. There are people with mechanical engineering backgrounds here and maybe we'll hear some educated opinions.

I was writing mostly for other readers who might not be aware of tractor limitations and that sub-frames don't guarantee invulnerability. I have a fairly small and weak 3ph hoe for my Ford. It does what I want and I'll happily contract out anything the puny hoe won't handle.

I suppose your situation is a tough call. Many dedicated backhoes are small skid-steers. Their uses aren't as generalized as a tractor and they do make a mess of lawns.






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 10-12-2002, 12:45 Post: 43755
Stephen Brewer
2002-10-12 00:00:00
Post: 43755
 TC33D New Holland breaking in 2 at engine block

It looks like the tractor is going to be warrantied as I have the 5 year extended warranty. The problem that I have is that the JD 955 which I had with a 7 hoe and a loader had a full frame and also a subframe. When I went to the NH dealer and requested a NH machine equivalent to the 955 JD this is what I received and they sent it this way. I ordered this machine to be dedicated to backhoe work and this is what happened. My problem is that the dealer misrepresented this machine as its seems now that it cannot stand up to the tasks that it was sold for and represented to handle. The machine that broke came from the manufacturer already assembled with the hoe, subframe and loader. The dealer was aware and cautioned as to the use of this machine. I do not use this or any other machine abusively. I have had 5 other machines of the same size and smaller and never had any problem like this. It seems to be a problem with the casting of these blocks. The dealer stated that this is the smallest tractor that New Holland puts this block in so it doesn't seem right that it would have broken. Also the implements that I have on the tractor ie:NH Backhoe and NH loader are the smaller size for this machine. NH makes the 757 and the 758 both to fit this machine. I have the 757C on my machine. If anyone has heard of this happening to someone else let me know. I always thought that boltys could come loose or something of that nature but for the back end to just break off the engine block with all the bots tight this is just mind boggling and frustrating.
Thanks.






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 10-12-2002, 17:21 Post: 43758
Peters

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 TC33D New Holland breaking in 2 at engine block

I would look closely at the casting on the block. Although QA/QC should have determine this there may have been a defect in the casting. There used to be a lot of blocks that would break/crack due to defects, but they are less common with better casting techniques.






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 10-12-2002, 18:43 Post: 43759
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 TC33D New Holland breaking in 2 at engine block

I understand your frustration and anger, but lets review the facts. You asked for a New Holland tractor that met the specs of your 955 Deere. I believe the TC33/7308/757C does that as closely as any combination in the NH line. New Holland does not sell 955's painted blue.The 7308 is the ONLY FEL NH makes for installation on the Class II Boomers. There is simply no other choice. I won't argue whether a 758C hoe can be fitted to a Class II tractor with factory mounts, but I will state that any dealer that does it is not doing his reputation or customer any favors; the 758C is simply too big. There hasn't been a 757 (no suffix letter) in the NH line for many years. Therefore the 757C with subframe is the only SANE hoe option offered by NH for a TC33. Your tractor did not leave the factory with a backhoe mounted. Dealers install backhoes, period. Recently, the factory began installing loader mount kits and valves, but the dealer still hangs the loader on the mounts, and may have installed the mounts and valve too. The dealership where I work sells several dozens of TC's every year. Some with Bradco hoes, some with New Holland. Breaking engine blocks is not something we have seen or heard of, although I don't doubt it can happen. I am glad to hear this failure is covered under warranty, and you should be, too. It isn't too difficult to find compacts of any color you choose with this kind of failure, they all do at times. We have a Kubota bellhousing used as a planter. The owner high-centered a mid mount mower, and knocked the attachment mount pads off BOTH sides of the housing. We have it because we did the repair: Kubota did not warranty the failure, but I do not know the particulars.






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 10-13-2002, 06:46 Post: 43771
TomG

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 TC33D New Holland breaking in 2 at engine block

It's good to hear that it was a manufacturer/dealer recommended configuration and that they are going to stand behind it.

I worked in statistics and probability with some applications to QC and risk assessment. I think of failures as inevitable, but within the engineered life expectancy of a system, failures should be statistically rare events. However, to virtually eliminate them would require overly conservative designs--sort of like old BMW motorcycles.

To get useful work from a machine is to accept risk of failure, and of course some acceptable configurations accept more risk than others. There is no way to avoid playing the odds. It is good to hear that when the odds fail the customer/dealer/manufacturer (we're all in the same game) that the manufacturer makes it right. They dealt the cards after all, but I guess that's what should be expected from a manufacturer and that is whatís paid for in big 3 or 4 machines. Of course all this abstract stuff is beside the point when the failure happens to you, but it is good to hear that it'll be made right.






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 10-13-2002, 11:22 Post: 43776
jeff r



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 TC33D New Holland breaking in 2 at engine block

Steven,
I'm trying to visualize your set up via your explanation as compared to my setup. My Woods subframe integrates and bolts into the frame connected Wood's 1006 frontloader bracket via a bracket pinned with a 14 inch pin and U bracket that slides into the subframe crossframe bar. Since the Kubota B-2150 has a steel ladder frame type construction and at no time does my backhoe/frontloader mounting set-up bolt into any critical drive-line components other than the bracket under where the drawbar hitch was removed squarely under the tractor's whole back axle. I think if I stress anything it will be on the steel ladder frame and not on a weaker driveline housings. Does the NH Boomer tractor line have a steel ladder frame type construction? I can't remember. If I understood you correctly, you said your hoe does not attach to the tractor with a TOP link to the 3 point attachment hole??? If your hoe is just attached to the subframe I find that "ODD". The WOOD's subframe has No physical connections to the 3 point top link even though the Wood's mounting kit included a heavy duty replacement adjustable top link that is connected to the top link of the backhoe and to the top link bracket of the tractor. The Wood's and Kubota Backhoes mounted on a SUBFRAME, REQUIRE A TOP LINK BAR TO BE USED and I would presume all others do too. Seems to me your explanation on your subframe mounting is that it bolts into your weaker drive (engine block) components and while that is better than 3 point mounting, all the subframe did was tranfer Load/stress to the weaker engine block. The simple question remains, does the NH have a ladder frame design. If they don't, the the subframe attachement point to the engine block may have been the only choice left. Somebody correct my theory if I'm wrong.






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