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hardwood
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2004-08-21          94069

This may be an old subject that has been hashed before and I just missed it. Anyhow I got to thinking about how a hybrid can be a lot mere efficent than a regular car of the same size, weight and aerodynamic shape. Our only source of energy on the earth is the sun other than possibly nuclear, I don't know what created that. If I understand a hybrid correctly it's only form of energy recovery is from small alternators in the wheel hubs that recover the kinetic energy of the mass of the car while braking, but did'nt energy have to be put into the mass of the car to get it moving in the first place? I also understand that the small gasoline engine shuts off at a stoplight, but isn't almost as much energy consumed by the starter of that engine to restart it? Surely nobody wants a small nuclear reactor in their car, so where does the energy come form to make the hybrid more effecient? Don't get me wrong, we do need to conserve the energy we have stored in the form of oil, we're using it up like a drunken salor. Ethanol is helping out as a renewable source and wind is being used, but they are only making a dent in our growing consumption rate, but at least we've started doing something to strech the oil. I don't want to start any shouting matches over this, I'm just curious about how the hybrid can be much more efficent than what we allready have. Frank.

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TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002
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2004-08-22          94087

A complicated subject and no expertise here. I'm not even certain how particular hybrids work. A general answer is that conventional engine efficiencies aren't very high due to heat, reciprocating motion and parasitic losses. Reduce those losses and it'll take less energy of all types to operate. Conventional braking also looses much of the energy it takes to start a vehicle in motion through heat loss. ....

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AV8R
Join Date: Oct 2003
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2004-08-22          94107

I was under the impression that the hybrid vehicles are gas/diesel over electric, like a train locomotive. This allows the fueled engine to operate on it's most efficient fuel to power to emmissions RPM setting, only when needed. IE the fueled engine is not directly linked to the driving wheels. There are batteries or capacitors which recover the braking energy and stored energy from the running generator for the electric "traction" motor(s) during acceleration. This battery power can suppliment the gernerator power for higher performance or be used alone for quiet/zero emmision operation on some proposed vehicles.

I have also heard that Oshkosh Truck is working on some sort of gas turbine (jet engine) over electric power for an upcomming military application. Dodge is making noises of a diesel-electric hybrid truck in the near future.

There was also talk of a hydraulic accumulator braking system used to recover braking energy. This stored hydraulic pressure was used for additonal power for acceleration. (Ford trucks I think?) ....

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Chief
Join Date: Jul 2003
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2004-08-22          94109

Let's not over look the fact that Congress and oil company lobbist are quietly "tippy toeing" around mobilizing our country's MASSIVE agricultural resources to put farmer back to work and profitability by gearing our economy to run as much as is possible to run off of SME or RME aka soy methyl ester/rapeseed methyl ester aka "Bio Diesel". Our government and the Dept. of Agriculter pay farmers and land owners BILLIONS of dollars to let their land set idle. Our country could readily cut its oil imports by at least 50% if we put our lands into FULL production of soy beans and rape seed (rape seed makes the best Biodiesel). This would not only make our country MUCH more energy independent but also keep TRILLIONS of energy dollar here in the US and in our economy. Combining electic hybrid technology would be a substantial resource multiplier. In my opinion the biggest reason our county has not already developed the Biodiesel/Renewable energy infrastructure is that the Oil Companies do not want to see companys like Archer Daniels Midland cut into their profits and sales territory. ....

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kwschumm
Join Date: Feb 2003
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2004-08-22          94111

I believe most of the efficiency gain in hybrids is due to less energy lost to waste heat, smaller engines that operate almost exclusively in their optimum efficiency bands, and recovery of some energy through brake regeneration. That, and the fact that most hybrids to date are pretty dinky cars. I personally think hybrid technology is a dead end street due to large amounts of hazardous waste (batteries), needless complexity, risk of electrocution in accidents, etc. At one point this technology was heavily subsidized and the automakers sold every one at a loss, but I'm not sure what the economics are these days. IMHO, small diesels will be the wave of the future due to better economics and renewable bio-diesel fuels. ....

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AV8R
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2004-08-22          94122

Amen.

Let's not forget that most diesel engines will run (quite nicely) on just strait vegetable oil. The refining process to generate Bio-Diesel requires quite a bit of energy (heat) and the addition of a refined methanol to create. ....


Link:   How to Run Free Veg Oil

 
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yooperpete
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2004-08-23          94158

I'm also having a problem with the concept of a hybrid. It seems to violate some of Newton's laws. What we don't realize is that engineers have been working on this for some time and have used all the tricks to cut power losses and power consumption to near optimum levels.

I think we all realize that a gasoline engine's efficiency has improved over the years and that we are or have been at peak efficiency for the last few years. Smog controlling devices decrease this slightly. Every time you change the form of energy you have some sort of loss. I've been told that a gasoline engine is most efficient when driving down the highway at 55-65mph. So using a gasoline engine to charge a battery that in turn operates an electric motor doesn't make sense until you understand that the gasoline engine is tiny. It runs at this optimum speed nearly all of the time when it is running. Braking energy normally turns into heat and is wasted, so having each wheel operator as an alternator/generator makes sense. I understand that the battery lasts about 100,000 miles worth of recharging and is at least $3,000.00 to replace.

The other part that I can't understand is all of these gizmos only costs about $5,000.00 more. I am also told that some sort of Federal Tax credit can be gotten by purchasing one of these energy saving automobiles.

The other part that makes me concerned is 3 years down the road, is the concept or technology obsolete so the normal vehicle having a $15,000.00 trade in value is now worth about $2,000.00. Remember, when you buy it, it is yours!

I'm definitely going to consider the Ford Escape hybrid for my next vehicle purchase which is several years away. ....

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shortmagnum
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2004-08-23          94169

Hybrids make good around town cars. The inefficiency of the gas is highest when they accelerate from stop, and this is where the high torque electric takes over. I don't believe they are much if any more efficient on the road at speed.
Dave ....

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Murf
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2004-08-23          94176

They're not new, in the 30's, 40's and early 50's most urban delivery vehicles in Northern Ireland were battery-powered electric vehicles.

There are several variations on the hybrids of today though. The Toyota & Honda version, where the small gas engine powers an electrical system, just like in a train engine, seems the most promising. Although there is a big push to develop the 'parallel' system, wherein a vehicle has a small gas engine, just enough to keep it rolling, then gets a boost from an electric motor that also drives the same transmission as the gas motor does, when it needs to pull away or for more accelleration in general.

One of the most promising however will likely be the Hydrogen assist system. This is basically an electrical device which reduces water into Hydrogen & Oxygen and then injects them into a conventional gas or diesel engine for better performance on less fossil fuel.

The big advantage to this is it can be used on existing vehicles and technology.

Best of luck. ....

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shortmagnum
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2004-08-23          94183

Murf, in the Honda (and I think the Toyota) the system is not like a locomotive. The electric motor is in line with the drive train just aft of the gas motor and in front of the transmission. It's large diameter and only about as thick as a clutch & pressure plate. The electric motor is only an assist for power. It also bleeds off momentum by helping to recharge the batteries on deceleration.

I would like to see a locomotive type system. I think it would have higher efficiency than this one.
Dave ....

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slbroug
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2004-08-23          94195

Hi all! I have a '04 Toyota Prius. It is not dinky by any measure, averages 52 mpg without driving like a grandmother, and does this in total comfort since climate control is std. The efficiency is due to regenerative braking and a continuousing variable transmission which allows any ratio of electric and engine power that the moment requires. A hybrid does not accelerate quickly, but once at speed will maintain speed with VERY little energy consumption (aerodynamic design over style). No laws of physics are violated, simply an honest effort at better milage. Detroit could have done this but didn't - ever ask why? ....

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kwschumm
Join Date: Feb 2003
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2004-08-23          94197

I guess dinky is in the eye of the beholder. A good friend of mine has a Prius and we drive around in it all the time. It's dinky in my opinion, but the color dash display is fun to watch.

My understanding is that development was subsidized a bit by the government and sales were encouraged through tax credits so maybe Detroit chose not to be a party to that arrangement. I don't blame 'em if that's the case, subsidies come and go and when they go guess who is left holding the bag? If it were my manufacturing company I wouldn't want to make something that couldn't profitably sell on it's own merits. ....

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slbroug
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2004-08-23          94216

Hi Ken,

Yes a '04 Prius is no Caddy, but if you drove around in an '02 or '03, it was much smaller then. The '04 Prius back seat is bigger than the Accord or Camry in knee room. These are two of the largest selling cars these days, so the beholder is referencing something else. Anyway, the choice to buy a fuel efficient car and not worry about the cost of fuel was not influenced by tax breaks, etc. It is simply a great commuter car. I do not recommend a hybrid as an only car for a family although it is very capable of being one. The trunk size is too small for trips requiring 4+ bags. ....

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kwschumm
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2004-08-23          94218

My friends Prius is an '02 so I guess it was smaller. He has had great luck with it and it's been a reliable car. I hope I didn't sound like I was criticizing them, but compared to our Taurus the 02 is a small car (at least on the outside). I'll have to look at the 04 models sometime. Certainly can't blame anyone for shopping for fuel economy these days. We're looking at replacing the wifes Taurus with a Jeep Liberty Diesel in the next year and I'm looking for a used VW TDI to get better mileage as well. ....

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AV8R
Join Date: Oct 2003
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2004-08-23          94230

slbroug: My 2001 VW Jetta TDI (Turbo Direct Injected diesel) gets the same king of milage (+/- 50MPG) and DOES accellerate quite nicely, also full climate control and all the goodies. Plus it cost less than $20K new.

Ken: Good luck finding a used TDI, they are like gold around here! If you find one, you'll love it. ....

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oneace
Join Date: Mar 2004
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2004-08-23          94231

Car and Driver recently compared a Civic hybrid, Toyota Echo and Prius with a Jetta TDI. Here are some general specs from the mag.

Honda civic hybrid:
Gas engine 85 hp 87 ft lbs
electric motor 13 hp 36 ft lbs
continuously variable trans
0-60 11.7
43 mpg high way
53 mpg city observed
EPA estimates
47 highway
48 city

Toyota Echo:
Gas engine 108 hp 105 ft lbs
0-60 9.8
41 mpg highway
42 mpg city
EPA estimates
39 mpg highway
33 mpg city

Toyota Prius
Gas engine 76 hp 82 ft lbs
electric motor 67 hp 295 ft lbs
0-60 10.1
50 mpg highway
52 mpg city observed
EPA estimates
51 mpg highway
60 mpg city

Volkswagen Jetta GLS TDI
Turbo Diesel Engine 100 hp 177 ft lbs
0-60 11.2
42 mpg highway
33 mpg city observed
EPA estimates
44 mpg highway
33 mpg city ....

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kwschumm
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2004-08-23          94239

AV8R, I know what you mean about the TDIs. I've been keeping an eye on eBay motors for one to pop up that might be in my area. I'd take a Jetta, Passat, or Golf TDI but no Beetle - those are ladies cars! ....

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hardwood
Join Date: Dec 2002
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2004-08-24          94275

Thanks everyone for the response to my Hybrid Car question. Now you're getting me interested, I'm going to check out those listed by car and driver. I most likely won't buy anything right now, but as in all products where competition is high the products will get better. Not "if" but likely "when" a new discovery in the technology of the hybrids is found and perfected to make them less expensive, such as cheaper, lighter, more efficent batteries, etc.. Just imagine the oil savings possible if even a third of the cars on the road today could have their mileage improved by ten mpg. Someone brought up the subject of using idle farmland to produce soy diesel. Not a lot of those acres are really capable of growing soybeans without tremendous soil losses due to erosion, etc.. Most of that land is best suited to being in grass, which may hold promise as a bio mass energy producer to perhaps replace natural gas in powerplants, who knows? We do need to get real serious about our future energy needs. I do remember my early years without electricity or a telephone, we got along just fine, but I really don't want to go back to the "Good Ole Days" as folks call them, the "Good New Days" are now, lets try to keep them. Frank. ....

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yooperpete
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2004-08-24          94287

When you are looking at hybrid vehicles, you should take the time to look at the Ford Escape Hybrid model which was just released this month. I understand it has a highway mileage rating of 40 mpg. It is the first SUV of its kind. If you look at the sales volumes of the previous models brought over from the pacific rim the numbers are nothing when looking at the whole picture. I'm sorry but can't stop waiving the red, white and blue. ....

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slbroug
Join Date: Sep 2003
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2004-08-24          94314

Hi AV8R,

The Jetta TDI is a fine car. It is smaller than the '04 Prius in any dimension. I sold a 2000 Passat Wagon when I bought the '04 Prius for $21K. When the battery charge is near max, I can accelerate every bit as fast as a TDI. The Prius gets 295 lb-ft from the electric motor + 82 lb-ft from the engine, so it is a capable sprinter. The battery charge state determines standing start pickup for this reason. The reduced emission advantages of a hybrid are unmatched as compared to diesel. ....

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AV8R
Join Date: Oct 2003
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2004-08-24          94365

slbroug: For me it's just a diesel thing. Everything I own except the Harleys, the push mower and pressure washer are diesel. I even keep a news article around of a guy who built a V-Twin diesel motor for his Harley.

No, I'm not normal. ....

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kwschumm
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2004-08-24          94386

I'd rather have the diesel too. For one, I have a far better chance of doing my own repairs on it and for another the diesel engine will probably outlast any hybrid drivetrain. ....

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Murf
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2004-08-25          94419

For those of us who live in the more northern parts of the continent a diesel motor sitting over the drive wheels makes a HUGE difference in drivability in winter weather also.

I don't think anybody would make it out of their driveway around here with one of those lightweight buggies after a good dump of snow blows down off the bay and lands in the front yard.

Best of luck. ....

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yooperpete
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2004-08-25          94422

The Ford Escape hybrid comes in 4x2 and 4x4 models which is much like all wheel drive that turns on as you need it. It should get you most places in northern climates. I couldn't find the mileage ratings for the 4x4. They only shown it for 4x2 which is 36/32 which still isn't bad for a small SUV. ....

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Murf
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2004-08-25          94424

A number of years ago Ford offered an "electronic all wheel drive" version of the Aerostar which was a RWD vehicle. Basically it was a 2WD vehicle that had a high torque motor that kicked in to assist by powering the front wheels when it sensed the back wheels slipping.

A neighbour at my cottage bought on which he still drives today, it has been very dependable for him.

I remember reading in I think it was Popular Mechanics at the time they came out that Ford viewed it as the first step towards more electric drive systems.

Best of luck. ....

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slbroug
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2004-08-25          94426

This is becoming humorous. FYI - The '04 Prius weighs 2890 lbs and is front wheel drive. I live in Massachusetts and have no difficulty in the snow. 0 - 60 takes 11 sec or 14 sec for a Jetta (90 HP) turbodiesel. My mileage does drop in January & February due to a longer warm up period and interior heating requirements. My opinion - today there is no advantage to diesel except for tractors where speed does not matter & torque reigns supreme. My Prius is approaching 9K miles with zero problems - this is a Toyota after all. Oh, the battery guarantee is 8 years/100Kmi. ....

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kwschumm
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2004-08-25          94427

The fact that it's a Toyota doesn't mean anything to me. We had a Corolla that was as big a POS as our current Fords. ....

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Murf
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2004-08-25          94433

The comment about weight is exactly what I was talking about.

The Jetta weighs almost exactly 3000 lbs. and not very much of it is batteries, a 1.9 litre diesel sitting over the wheels means a considerable amount more weight is on the drive tires to increase traction.

Are ALL the batteries in a Prius under the hood together with the electric drive system and the 1.5 litre gas motor? ....

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kwschumm
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2004-08-25          94438

One point in the hybrids favor was brought up that I'm unclear about. The hybrids certainly produce fewer exhaust emissions than diesels, but when you consider the big picture with hundreds of lbs. of battery waste I'm not sure it's a net environmental benefit. Aren't the batteries toxic waste? What kind of battery technology do they use? ....

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Murf
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2004-08-25          94448

The Prius uses a sealed Nickel-metal hybrid battery, although I have not seen any description of what the metal is. Presumably the battery would have a very long life and even then it would be recycled as most rechargeable batteries are today.

I have not seen the spec.'s on the emissions either, although it is a very high-tech 4 valve per cylinder 4 banger, the fact still remains, it is a 1.5 litre GAS motor.

The diesel can't be THAT far behind it in cleanliness considering how thrifty it is on fuel in the first place, at 50ish miles per gallon there just isn't a lot fuel left to create emissions after making 100hp along the way.

Best of luck. ....

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beagle
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2004-08-25          94454

A gallon of gasoline contains 125,000 BTU's of energy (or available work). A gallon of deisel fuel contains 155,000 BTU's. With almost 25% more available energy per gallon, diesel seems like an obvious place to look for efficiencies. With either fuel, a hybrid will be limited to extracting a defined amount of potential and kenetic energy from every gallon in the most efficient way possible. It is a balancing act between trapping, storing, and re-using energy and the additional losses experienced by doing so. ....

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shortmagnum
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2004-08-25          94468

"With almost 25% more available energy per gallon, diesel seems like an obvious place to look for efficiencies. "

I'll paraphrase a statement made earlier this year on this site. "GM singlehandedly ruined the diesel market in the US for decades."

The marketers know that many are still afraid they're all boat anchors like the 350 GM diesel.
Dave ....

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oneace
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2004-08-25          94473

That is true the old GM diesels were out and out junk!! I have even tried to modify them with no prevail, added a turbo and other mods still JUNK.
But the new diesels out to day are excellent (though still not sure about the GM line) the Ford and Dodge as well as VW, and Mercedes are really great engines. ....

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Murf
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2004-08-25          94482

I had some visitors from overseas this summer.

In the course of touring them around Toronto one of them commented about how expensive taxis must be here. This comment left me a little bewildered at first. How can seeing a taxi driving down the street give you any indication of cost? When questioned about the comment the answer made it all very clear.

If they can afford to throw away a big North American car every couple of years after paying big bucks in gas & repairs they MUST be bringing in lots of money in order to be able to afford to do it and still make a profit.

When I asked about taxis "back home" the reply was "Mercedes Diesel sedans, ALL of them." Apparently they run these things for sometimes in excess of 20 years and just rebuild them as a routine thing every 600,000 kilometers (372,000 miles) or so.

It is not uncommon I'm told for these things to run 20+ years and rack up several million kilometers before they are retired, and even them there is a long line of people who want to buy them for personal use.

Now THAT is a USED car.

Best of luck. ....

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AnnBrush
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2004-08-25          94484

The fact that diesel has more BTU's per gallon vs. gas is irrelevant. It takes more crude to produce one gallon of diesel than it does one gallon of gas. What is being refered to here is energy density of a fuel and not energy efficiency of a motor - the amount of work you can get out of a unit of energy.

If all are right the most "efficient" would be a hybrid diesel car. I am not aware of any of these units being produced - I am sure there is a good reason althought it may not be engineering / mechanically related.

In countries where gas and diesel are more expensive (as a proportion of disposable income - not the US / Canada) the country's fleet of vehicles tends to have smaller engines (few have more than 4 cylinders), they tend to have more turbo diesel passenger cars and many very small gas engines < 1.0 liter - 850cc passenger car engines are common. This says to me that when it comes to economising smaller = less expensive. ....

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shortmagnum
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2004-08-25          94490

"It takes more crude to produce one gallon of diesel than it does one gallon of gas."

Ann, if this is true, why is diesel the preferred fuel around the world? It seems that diesel is generally easier to find produce. Or am I totally wrong?
Dave ....

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shortmagnum
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2004-08-25          94492

In looking a bit further it seems that Ann is correct. But you don't get less diesel volume from crude at the expense of gasoline. The diesel and kerosene remain after the gasoline is refined.

The important thing is that diesel gives more energy at reduced cost.
....

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oneace
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2004-08-25          94496

yes diesel kerosene and fuel oil are made from "waste" after gasoline is made. The process cost a little more which is why diesel costs more. Say you take one gallon of crude and refine it you will end up with about 1/2 gallon of gas. Then with the additives you still end up with about 2/3 gallon of waste which is then turned in to whatever. In the oil industry nothing is wasted. ....

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AV8R
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2004-08-25          94507

Ann is right. The most efficient would be a hybrid diesel. There are, however, quite a few of them around. Diesel-Electric locomotives and marine applications (cruise ships) to name a couple. Imagine how much fuel a train would use with a gasoline motor or heavy highway truck for that matter.

Just because its only used on "super-sized" equipment doesn't mean it's wrong for a family car/SUV. IMHO it just proves that it would make more sense in a smaller vehicle. A step beyond the gasoline-electric hybrid. Now if the gov can only get going with the low sulfer diesel and EPA allow the manufacturers to market some technology...

I for one hope that Dodge pursues the Cummins(diesel)-Electric hybrid truck. By the time it hits the market, I will be looking to replace my '94 Dodge-Cummins.

Just my warped opinion. ....

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beagle
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2004-08-25          94515

To say that diesel is left over from refining gasoline isn't exactly what happens. Diesel and other long hydrocarbons are removed from the distillation process at a lower temperature than korosene and gasoline. Diesel has a longer hydrocarbon chain and thus a higher boiling point. It condenses lower in the tower and is removed. Diesel and other heavy oils can then be further "cracked" in a cracking tower and have their hydrocarbon chains furhter reduced to produce gasoline or other shorter chain by-products.

I'm pretty sure Golden Goebel was left over after brewing Strohs, and Red White and Blue was the residue of brewing Pabst Blue Ribbon, but diesel isn't really residue from refining crude oil to gasoline.

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Chief
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2004-08-25          94522

Folks, I am hearing some incorrect statements about how petroleum products are refined and produced. Here is a good link that spells the process out pretty good and should hopefully clear things up for everyone and perhaps give all a better understanding of what goes into the process. ....


Link:   REFINING PROCESSES

 
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oneace
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2004-08-25          94527

That is what I was trying to say but again I put wrong terms in that completely destroyed my thoughts.

Thanks for the info chief. ....

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Chief
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2004-08-25          94530

With my advanced stage of CRS I have the same problem Oneace. ;o) Thank goodness for bookmarks! ....

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oneace
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2004-08-25          94532

I am semi dyslexic and usually I have 1000 thoughts running at the same time and it is hard to concentrate on one at a time. I do not know what is wrong with me I have never been to see a doctor but I probably should. I may have adult ADD but I tend to think that is a made up illness?

Yes thank goodness for bookmarks and spell checks. ....

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LapinFarmer
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2004-08-27          94772

Scientic American had a great article on hybrids and various alternative fuel economies (e.g. hydrogen) in the May issue. I highly recommend the article.

It got me into a long Email discussion with a buddy on diesel vs gasoline, to the point I had to pull out my old thermo text book to explain efficiency differences between diesels and Otto cycle (gas) engines.

The current crop of hybrid cars are gasoline because Honda and Toyota were trying to deal with California emissions requirements and get the ridiculous Zero Emission Vehicle requirements quashed (ZEV is dumb, Low EV is realistic). Since Americans don't like diesels and fuel availabilty is iffy in places they went with gas. If you really want make the most efficient car it would be a diesel-electric hybrid.

Those of you waiting for the hydrogen economy to save us will have a very long wait. Hydrogen is a secondary fuel, not a primary energy source, and as a fuel it is hard to handle and not very dense.
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DonaldC
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2004-09-14          96463

Couldn't help but to jump in here. Before I bash internal combustion I should say that I'm addicted to it in all its forms. That being said, a gasoline engine such as that powering a car typically converts only 20 to 30 percent of the energy released in combustion into usable work at the flywheel. The rest is lost in a variety of ways, mostly through heat sent out in the exhaust and through the cooling system. Think about it, the expansion (compression ratio) allowed for capturing the energy is about 10 to 1, while the expansion to ambient pressure in converting from liquid starting material to gaseous products is 1000 to 1. We let a lot of high pressure hot gases out as waste. So, there are huge opportunities to recover some of this using hybrid designs or other means. In a hybrid, the idea is to use an undersized but efficient gas engine for power and run it in a narrow, efficient rpm range. All power comes from this engine, and it ultimately is sufficient because it can continue producing power during coasting, for eample, and that power is stored in a battery and released through an electric moter as needed. ....

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slbroug
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2004-09-15          96548

kwschumm,

Sorry about your Corolla experience. The facts (e.g. - CR) suggest your car was not typical of the brand. You'd have a hard time finding many Toyota owners, past or present that would agree they rate POS status. The Prius is certainly bland in some respects, but fuel economy, emissions and quality of build are as good as it gets. If the world wants diesel powered cars, or hybrid diesels, I will not protest. But I suspect that diesel cars are unlikely to gain widespread popularity with gas hybrids as an alternative. ....

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JParker
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2004-09-16          96625

I had the opportunity to drive my Uncle's Primus (I think an 03 model) while on vacation. I have to admit it was an interesting little car. Great for 1 or 2 persons (like most of us drive most of the time), not overly peppy but not too bad either. I may think about one in a few years if they are still around as a weekday commuter vehicle. I still need a truck on weekends and for towing.

I don't think they are playing with physics too much here either. The main savings in town driving come from shutting off the engine when you aren't moving. I have a GPS mounted in my car and often look at how much time in a short trip is spent "Stopped" vs "Moving". It's a good indicator of what is killing the city mileage. They do gain a few points by recovering energy with the regenerative braking, but I wonder how much that actually saves. I think the Toyota system uses the main motor for braking not something in each wheel. If so, since it's already there as a motor why not also use it as a generator.

If a different design requires extra components, I wonder if its really worth the extra complexity.

The extra highway mileage seems to come from having a very small engine with enough power to keep the mass moving. It uses the electric motor to help the gas engine accelerate. Like the previously posted specs indicate, with both the motor and gas engine working together, it has very decent torque.

I'm really waiting for a reasonably priced 4x4 truck. If they can get a truck up from the 15-18 mpg range into the 30-35 mpg range with hybrid technology, and keep the price reasonable, I think they will sell quite a few. If it wasn't for towing concerns I'd buy one. I bet it would handle a little utility trailer any way. Just not a 3500# tractor on a car hauler.

In the SUV market, I wouldn't be suprised to see that diesel/hybrid combo show up. If they throw in the ability to access the generator with some 120 volt and 240 volt outlets like I've seen info on, I think it would make a great contractor truck. A few people in rural areas may be interested as well.

Just my slightly wordy $.02

jparker ....

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kwschumm
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2004-09-16          96628

slbroug, my experience with CRs ratings have been spotty at best. I've bought a few top rated items that have sucked big time and after my last experience gave up on them. I agree that Toyota's generally are decent, but I'd probably not buy another. I still don't think hybrids are a long term solution though. The complexity is just too expensive to produce profitably IMHO, but if they help the manufacturer meet CAFE standards they can make up for it in their product mix with bigger, faster, more powerful, and more profitable vehicles. ....

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