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Adding hydraulics to dump trailer

kwschumm Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 5764 NW Oregon   Pics

2006-07-21          132494

I'm buying a 1-ton trailer that is "dump ready". I need to add a cylinder with 24" stroke and hook it into the tractor. The dump cylinder can probably be connected in place of the hydraulic top cylinder. A few questions please.

1. Will any 24" stroke cylinder work? Any special features to look for?

2. Should I go to a hydraulics shop to get custom hydraulic hoses made? Or is there a safe and reliable way to DIY the hoses?

3. Are the hydraulic quick disconnects pretty much interchangeable?

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Adding hydraulics to dump trailer

Art White Join Date: Jan 2000 Posts: 6898 Waterville New York   Pics

2006-07-22          132502

There are different ends to the cylinder available but the most common are the ones used in the ag industry so they would be the most economical to buy. Depending on location, might dictate the amount of strength needed to lift the box to dump when full. I'd probably say a four inch should be be fine. I'd also use 1/2 inch hoses to transfer the fluid as quickly as possible to have a good dump speed. Hoses carry a lot of pressure and I wouldn't try to put the ends on with other then the proper machine. ....

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Adding hydraulics to dump trailer

beagle Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 1333 Michigan   Pics

2006-07-22          132503

Hydraulic hoses can be purchased at most auto part stores, ends-to-fit. They are also avaliable on line at very good prices with NPT Fittings. You would need the fitting adapters for your Quick connects amd cylinder. The replacable hose ends are OK for emergency repairs, but not for long term use.

We add hydraulic dump to 2-ton wagons and always use 4" bore tie-rod cyliners with clevis ends. The cylinders are available about anywhere hydraulics are sold since that is also the most popular log splitter cyclinder. I would bet your wagon is set up for clevis end cyliners.

You can get everything you need at SurplusCenter. We order a lot of parts from them and they have always been great to work with. ....

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Adding hydraulics to dump trailer

JasonR Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 142 Northern Indiana   Pics

2006-07-22          132505

As far as the hoses go, northerntool.com has a pretty good selection of hoses for a decent price. I made the mistake of going to my local hydraulics shop for some hoses once, and they cost me about 5x what the same hoses went for at northerntool.

All hydraulic QD fittings are not the same. The ones at northern tool are not the same as the Parker ones on my 4110 power beyond kit. If you go to Mcmaster.com and do a search for: 'hydraulic quick' - click on the first item: 'about quick-disconnect hose couplings'. Near the bottom they show the different styles of fittings. My fittings were either an ISO series A or B, I don't remember which off hand. ....

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Adding hydraulics to dump trailer

DRankin Join Date: Jan 2000 Posts: 5116 Northern Nevada   Pics

2006-07-22          132510

According to their web page, the manufacturer of the dump trailer has some sort of hydraulic dump kit.... presumably manual.

I would start there.

Here is the web site. ....


Link:   Millside Industries

 
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Adding hydraulics to dump trailer

earthwrks Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 3853 Home Office in Flat Rock, Michigan   Pics

2006-07-22          132512

KW: Another thing to take into consideration is pump pressure and volume at the tractor remotes. And the inside diameter of the hydraulic lines; smaller (cheaper) lines will take longer for it to operate. And the type of lift geometry makes a big differece on how much it dump (maybe not so much in a one-ton lift but the larger ones). A hay wagon style (and there are others) has much more lifting ability from a dead, fully-down position compared to a direct-lift hydraulic cylinder which tends to need help to lift. These are generally mounted low, down in the trailer at an angle. A telescoping, front mounted cylinder seems to offer the best lifting ability. ....

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Adding hydraulics to dump trailer

kwschumm Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 5764 NW Oregon   Pics

2006-07-22          132514

Mark, you sure are a master of digging up online information. The company lists a hydraulic kit for the DT-2000 but not the DT2000-TM (which is the one I'm buying). I sent them an inquiry and will hold off buying the hydraulics until they reply. Most of the ATV dump trailers use battery operated hydraulics so that's probably what it is but their reply should clear things up.

EW, I'm hoping to not have to do much fabrication. The trailer is supposed to be dump-ready so the lift geometry is already established. Hydraulics wise I'll use the same big hoses that operate my top-and-tilt cylinders so that should be OK. Not sure of the I.D. of those but the O.D. is a good inch or more.

Thanks for the good info everyone. ....

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Adding hydraulics to dump trailer

DRankin Join Date: Jan 2000 Posts: 5116 Northern Nevada   Pics

2006-07-22          132516

Actually I sleuthed the Northern Tool paper catalog. There was a tiny logo on the page that could only be discerned with a magnifying glass.

The other thought I would like you to tuck away is the fact that wood decking is not very slippery.

You may eventually need to line or shingle the bed surface with sheet metal to get it to dump smoothly, especially after the wood ages and warps a bit. ....

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Adding hydraulics to dump trailer

DRankin Join Date: Jan 2000 Posts: 5116 Northern Nevada   Pics

2006-07-22          132517

"ATV utility trailer DT2000-TM

2000 Lb capacity tandem dump trailer

Features:
Sturdy metal running gear
Large pneumatic tires
Easily hitches to garden tractor or ATV
Black powder coated finish
Pin type hitch
1" treated lumber sides

Specifications:
16x6.5-8 pneumatic tires
Constructed for hydraulic cylinder lifting (cylinder is optional)

UPC code: 7-74996 05813-9"


I think they have a dump system for the TM model too.
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Adding hydraulics to dump trailer

kwschumm Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 5764 NW Oregon   Pics

2006-07-22          132518

On the TM model Northern told me that any 24" stroke cylinder would work but didn't mention any sort of kit. A Millside response should clear that up. Cylinders seem pretty standard so this will probably be one of those projects where most time spent will be in the chasing down of the right parts. ....

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Adding hydraulics to dump trailer

DRankin Join Date: Jan 2000 Posts: 5116 Northern Nevada   Pics

2006-07-22          132519

Interesting project.

Keep us posted....... ....

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Adding hydraulics to dump trailer

kwschumm Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 5764 NW Oregon   Pics

2006-07-22          132520

Will do. BTW, good call on the need to increase the slippery characteristics of the deck. A piece of sheet metal sized properly and screwed to the deck should fix that right up. ....

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Adding hydraulics to dump trailer

Art White Join Date: Jan 2000 Posts: 6898 Waterville New York   Pics

2006-07-22          132528

Many of the trailers will actually have the base frame for the hydraulic cylinder built in. Depending on the location of the cylinder location will dictate the diameter needed to lift the load. Northern hydraulics do have good hoses that are of good quality for your application. If the kit does include a hand pump unit then just order the cylinder and get the hoses to go to your tractor with iso ends to connect. ....

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Adding hydraulics to dump trailer

kwschumm Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 5764 NW Oregon   Pics

2006-07-26          132651

Here is Millside's response to my question about their dump kit for the DT2000-TM trailer.

"Sorry for late reply
yes we have a hydrualic dump kit available with hoses all you will need in the adapters from the hose to your tractor

kit cost299.99us plus frieght

please advise "

Northern says the trailer shipped yesterday. I think I'll wait for it to arrive before deciding on the dump kit. Millside didn't give much detail and I'm pretty sure their kit won't be completely plug-and-play anyway.
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Adding hydraulics to dump trailer

oneace Join Date: Mar 2004 Posts: 1490 south central pa   Pics

2006-07-26          132664

If you can get to any tractor dealer they will most likely have the cylinder and be able to make your hose for you too. These day most tractors use the same rear quick disconnects for the hyd. We called them pioneer style. Remember to get you hoses longer than you might need them. Too short and you will be swearing. Just right and the first time you turn or crest a hill and you will pull, stretch or break some thing. ....

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Adding hydraulics to dump trailer

kthompson Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 5275 South Carolina   Pics

2006-07-26          132676

Ken,

Hoses premade sure do cost less than same hose made at local shops. Of course there are more options with those made in the local shops as they can install an end not normally used and odd lengths. Might save a fitting for you.

You may find the metal you want for the floor at a heating and air conditioning shop. A guage with gal. coating should work fine.

Oneance,

A hose one inch short is a real heart break and can be costly. As you pointed out, those turns and curves add up.
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Adding hydraulics to dump trailer

kwschumm Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 5764 NW Oregon   Pics

2006-08-06          133037

When assembling hydraulic connectors I've heard teflon tape is a no-no. What type of thread sealant should be used (if any)? ....

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Adding hydraulics to dump trailer

kthompson Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 5275 South Carolina   Pics

2006-08-06          133039

Ken,

You can use the teflon tape and need to on pipe threads as the threads do the sealing. Be sure not to let the tape extend over the end of the fitting and there should be none getting into the system.

On the fittings with the machined ends that do the sealing you should not use the tape on those as the threads do not do the sealing, rather machined surface on machined surface.

Often the ports on cyls are pipe threads and you will need tape on those fittings but not the hoses to fittings.

Has been a few years since I worked in manf. plant that used anywhere from a dozen to two hyd cyls per machine we used a lot of teflon tape. (we used a lot of everything)

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Adding hydraulics to dump trailer

kwschumm Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 5764 NW Oregon   Pics

2006-08-06          133040

Thanks, Kenneth. These are all NPT threads so it looks like teflon tape all the way. ....

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Adding hydraulics to dump trailer

kthompson Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 5275 South Carolina   Pics

2006-08-07          133045

Ken,

The fittings on the end of the hoses probably are not pipe threads. But they could be. A pipe thread normally does not have the machined beveled end as it does not match to a fitting.

I am sure you know to break the pressure before you try to diconnect a cyl from the remote hyds. Will you want to leave the trailer tilted up when you unhook so water would drain? If so have you taken that into consideration?

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Adding hydraulics to dump trailer

kwschumm Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 5764 NW Oregon   Pics

2006-08-07          133052

The cylinder and hoses haven't arrived yet but they're both supposed to be 1/2 NPT. I don't know if they have machined ends or not but will keep the teflon on the threads.

Good thought about drainage. The trailer bottom has individual boards so water should drain fairly easily now. When the sheet metal bottom goes in that might become an issue. What should I do to the trailer hydraulics to allow for that? The hoses will hook to the rear tractor ports using quick disconnects. ....

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Adding hydraulics to dump trailer

DRankin Join Date: Jan 2000 Posts: 5116 Northern Nevada   Pics

2006-08-07          133055

Unlike my GREEN tractor, my dump trailer hydraulics do not leak down. It will stay partially extended(up)for weeks at a time.

In this case, even parking on a very slight slope will keep it drained, especially if the metal does not go up the sidewalls.

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Adding hydraulics to dump trailer

earthwrks Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 3853 Home Office in Flat Rock, Michigan   Pics

2006-08-07          133077

Rankin: Now that you mention it I can have 12,000 lb. in raised up a few feet for weeks on my dump trailer and it doesn't leak down at all. ....

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Adding hydraulics to dump trailer

kthompson Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 5275 South Carolina   Pics

2006-08-08          133088

There are hyd cyls with valves to hold the load if the pressure is removed. If the cyls were installed by a factory that possibly/probably is the type of cyl you have. Of the cyls I have seen built this way the valve body shows up the outside of the cyl barrel. There may be another design with them internally but I would doubt it. It might be an OSHA or such regulation cyls on load lifting is to be of this type. There is the only use I have seen of them.

IF you buy the normal hyd cyl from a tractor supply business it does not have that valve.

Be warned, those valves can and do fail and what held last time may not this time. There have been many injuries and deaths from people trusting a hyd cyl to hold a load.

As to holding the bed up for water to drain, you might find just a block of wood between the body and the frame sufficient. ....

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Adding hydraulics to dump trailer

DRankin Join Date: Jan 2000 Posts: 5116 Northern Nevada   Pics

2006-08-08          133093

The block of wood is a good idea, especially on my trailer since the battery is buried under the bed with the hydraulics. If it fails, it would be hard to get the jumper cables on it.

You are also right about it being different than a tractor hydraulic system. After you power the bed up it lowers by releasing a solenoid valve and letting the oil drain back to the sump. ....

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Adding hydraulics to dump trailer

kthompson Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 5275 South Carolina   Pics

2006-08-08          133102

DRankin,

Your trailer has it own self contain hyd system if I read you last post correctly.

If correct, that is different then using the hyd on the tractor to power the cyl as when you disconnet the trailer from the tractor the system is open and will allow the hyd oil to flow, and the cyl drop. Ken is planning on connecting to his tractor to power the cyl and thus using the tractor's valve to hold the cyl which of course is not there when he disconnects.

If you are able to disconnect from remote hyd connection with a loaded cyl, normally you end up wet with hyd oil spraying and cyl coming down depending on the load on it as to speed. ....

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Adding hydraulics to dump trailer

earthwrks Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 3853 Home Office in Flat Rock, Michigan   Pics

2006-08-08          133116

KT: Are you sure about spraying oil from disconnects? $100 says they won't spray when using standard quick disconnects. The connection itself acts as a check valve preventing oil from leaving or entering the cylinder. Modern QD's are made so that they have already stopped fluid from flowing almost as soon as they are disconnected so that they can sometimes be considered "dripless" to meet EPA guidelines.

Gee let's see... what can I spend that $100 bucks on...(and don't EVEN mention new lace for the canopy, buddy LOL

EDIT DISCLAIMER: The QD's I describe are the dripless "flat face" type not the "Pioneer" that are prone to leaking and can spray oil if there is even residual pressure with tractor not on making pressure. ....

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Adding hydraulics to dump trailer

kthompson Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 5275 South Carolina   Pics

2006-08-09          133123

ew,

You are so much fun. Maybe you are correct and then you may be wet! I learned a long time ago to be safe and DRY so I cut off my engine and break the hyd pressure before I disconnect my remotes.

On my tractor the remotes are hard to disconnect or connect if the system does not have the pressure released. I have no doubt with a load on the hyd cylinder you might as well close your eyes and mouth for you will get sprayed as even a good SLICK NORTHERNER (wet with hyd oil) is not near as fast as pressurized oil is.

If you are able to do so on your beloved blue toy good for you. Let me know the day just a tiny bit of trash holds the valve open. So I can be ROFLOL


Very serious, it is not my suggestion to never disconnect with a load on the hyd cyl. Failure in any part of that system can DROP a load with no warning and no way to raise it. Always use a mechanical lock or blocking before you (or any part of you) ever get under any load supported by a extend hyd or air cylinder. They can fail with NO notice. If earthwrks is correct and you have the pressure being held by a fitting on the end of hyd hose you have the fitting, hose and cyl each can fail. If the fitting is the pioneer type the ball just getting bumped can provide that release. ....

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Adding hydraulics to dump trailer

earthwrks Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 3853 Home Office in Flat Rock, Michigan   Pics

2006-08-09          133126

KT: A SLICK NORTHERNER----wow that sounds remotely close to Carpetbagger.

My New Holland as a toy, hmmm. I'll give you that, but I make my living with it. How many toys can you say that about? BTW my feelings are hurt. Well okay, if HAD feelings they'd be hurt.

Pioneer vs. Flat Face Connectors: Therein lies the quandry. Now that you mention it I have had oil spray from the pioneers on the toy. I don't like Pioneers because they do leak--my toy's leak connected or not---and they're not ven made by NH! I naturally assumed EVERYONE uses the flat faced connectors which are used on the equipment I use and seen on farm equipment. You might want to consider using them. The long barrel shape has the internal valve it which like I said prevents leakage. It is very easy to disconnect them too since the pressurized oil behind the internal valve helps push the other side out, and as it pushes it out there are a series of o-rings and a plunger of sorts that seal up everything. ....

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Adding hydraulics to dump trailer

kwschumm Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 5764 NW Oregon   Pics

2006-08-09          133127

The tractor hydraulics are all Pioneer connectors so that's what I'll be using. They don't drip much, maybe a drop on disconnect, although they do seem to always be covered with an oily dust coating. I always relieve pressure before disconnecting. ....

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Adding hydraulics to dump trailer

Art White Join Date: Jan 2000 Posts: 6898 Waterville New York   Pics

2006-08-10          133146

Flat face couplers are used on skid steers for the most part and haven't hit the compacts or ag tractors. On all the dump trailers we sell they have a leg built on them that holds the box up for servicing which is a good idea. The self contained hydraulic systems depending on manufacturer seem to be slightly different as some are only power up and some are have power down working a two way cylinder. We've taken a few options on our trailers and kind of made them standard on stock units like the security box for the pump and battery so they are located on the hitch but locked up to make it a little harder for thieves. ....

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Adding hydraulics to dump trailer

kwschumm Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 5764 NW Oregon   Pics

2006-08-10          133151

Rigging up an integrated box support is a good idea. Shouldn't be hard. Thanks, Art. ....

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Adding hydraulics to dump trailer

kwschumm Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 5764 NW Oregon   Pics

2006-08-10          133171

On my tractor the hydraulic lines to the rear are 3/8". Art recommended half inch lines to the dump cylinder but there probably isn't any advantage to that from a performance standpoint due to limitations in the rest of the circuit. However, using half inch lines does simplify the connections since I don't need any 1/2-3/8" reducing fittings. Would there be any problem using half inch lines in a circuit if other lines in the circuit are 3/8"? ....

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Adding hydraulics to dump trailer

earthwrks Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 3853 Home Office in Flat Rock, Michigan   Pics

2006-08-10          133175

As you mentioned the 3/8" line reduces your performance right off the bat since that is the largest line from the tractor pump so going up to a larger line won't hurt, but going down to an even smaller line will reduce performance more. Also the sharp bends and fittings in a circuit reduces performance. All this would be an issue if you had to accurately meter or control a mechanism or drive a hydraulic motor for precision indexing, but you're not so go for it. An example of using smaller fittings and hoses is on my backhoe after letting an unqualified hydraulics shop work on it the backhoe arm would turn so fast it would nearly jerk me sideways. Reducing the fittings to 1/4" as they entered the cylinder reduced it to an acceptable level. The principle here was I reduced the volume to the cylinder thusly reducing reaction time. ....

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Adding hydraulics to dump trailer

kwschumm Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 5764 NW Oregon   Pics

2006-08-10          133183

Thanks EW. I've been involved with some other "flow" type applications where cavitation and laminar flows came into play and didn't want my ignorance to screw something up. ....

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Adding hydraulics to dump trailer

Art White Join Date: Jan 2000 Posts: 6898 Waterville New York   Pics

2006-08-10          133188

Ken, to have the hose larger allows for a larger reserve. Could you imagine being a fireman on the end of an inch and a half hose with a full hydrant pushing and nothing but a trickle! After enough hose that's the resistance that just killed the flow! Just like an electrical wire! It does work! ....

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Adding hydraulics to dump trailer

Murf Join Date: Dec 1999 Posts: 7249 Toronto Area, Ontario, Canada   Pics

2006-08-11          133191

Ken, the other thing most people forget about any dump box is that it normally comes down EMPTY.

The more restriction there is to unpressurized flow, i.e. nothing but gravity and the weight of the box to put it down, the slower it will come down. Since a 2 way cylinder on a dump box is not adviseable the one single line is both the up & down flows. With a long small diameter hydraulic line you could be waiting for the box to return to full down for some time.

Best of luck. ....

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Adding hydraulics to dump trailer

kwschumm Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 5764 NW Oregon   Pics

2006-08-11          133194

Why is a two-way cylinder not advisable? That's what I bought but it's not installed yet so it's still returnable. ....

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Adding hydraulics to dump trailer

earthwrks Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 3853 Home Office in Flat Rock, Michigan   Pics

2006-08-11          133199

Not to worry KW, you have the right cylinder. All you need to do is run one "in/out" hydraulic line to the bottom of the cylinder. BUT you will need to come up with some sort of a vent such as a small engine, cartridge-type, fuel filter clamped on a fitting or pipe at the top. Some 4x4 truck outfitters sell these for venting axles and transmissions. The main reason being you need a vent is that when you lift, air on the top end around the rod, has to go somewhere which is vented to atmosphere. Second reason is eventually oil will get past the piston and it has to go somewhere. Conversely, when you lower the box, the same amount of air will be drawn in. If there is no vent filter, you get dirt sucked in which will destroy the cylinder walls, seals, piston and rod. Depending on dust conditions, you might want to remotley mount the vent filter to keep it out of the dust.

FYI: If you did use a true one-way cylinder, it, by design does not need a vent because the rod literally fills up the cylinder wall cavity leaving no room for oil---this type of cylinder is common on hydraulic bottle and floor jacks, telescoping cylinders on big dump trucks and trailers, and snow plows---where in all cases gravity or weight provides the opposite direction to force it closed.

And further, if you decide to cap off the top hole instead fo venting it, you will effectively create a big shock absorber compressing the air inside so you may only be able to raise the cylinder partially or at least until the pump cannot overcome the built-up air pressure. ....

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Adding hydraulics to dump trailer

kwschumm Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 5764 NW Oregon   Pics

2006-08-11          133200

Thanks but I don't understand this at all. The existing tilt cylinder at the rear of the tractor has two ports connected to two quick disconnect couplers. I was planning on disconnecting the two tilt cylinder hoses and connecting two hoses from the dump cylinder in it's place. Why won't this work?

And how would a single port cylinder hook up to a two-port QD system? Hook to one port you have pressure, hook to the other you have return. How can one QD coupler do both? ....

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Adding hydraulics to dump trailer

Murf Join Date: Dec 1999 Posts: 7249 Toronto Area, Ontario, Canada   Pics

2006-08-11          133201

Ken, didn't mean to cause a mind-melt.

It's just physics at work. A 2 way cylinder (power both directions) pulls the dump box down, if the linkage and cylinder lebgths are not perfect, the cylinder will start to bend or twist things, or rip welds open, like thiose on the dump linkage and mounts. It can make far more power than the rest of the machine can withstand.

If you have a 2 way cylinder, don't worry, use it, but as EW mentioned you only need to connect it to the port furthest from the extending piston rod. The other port should be capped with a vent to keep dust and crap out of it. You can buy vents at any hyd. place, or online from places like Harbour Freight or Northern Hydraulics.

The remotes on your tractor normally work as a set, but will work fine singly too, just hook one line to one port, either one will work. The remote valve on your CUT has a single handle that actuautes 2 valves linked together. When you move the lever one way, 1 port gets pressure, the other connects to the return to sump. When you reverse the lever position, the ports reverse roles, now the other line has pressure, and the first line is a return. If you use just one line, the lever puts pressure to it in one direction, but moving the handle the other way puts pressure to the unused port (causing the relief valve to open and dump the flow) and makes the connected line a return line.

Clear as mud, huh ???

Try it and see, just be sure to have the unused port on the cylinder open to breathe, air out on extension, air in on retraction, or it will become a big air spring.

Best of luck.
....

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Adding hydraulics to dump trailer

kwschumm Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 5764 NW Oregon   Pics

2006-08-11          133203

Light goes on! Thanks Murf and EW for the great help. This weekend the cylinder gets installed and then I'll be able to measure for hose length. Hopefully by next weekend it will be up and running. ....

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Adding hydraulics to dump trailer

Murf Join Date: Dec 1999 Posts: 7249 Toronto Area, Ontario, Canada   Pics

2006-08-11          133204

Ken, this is the breather I was mentioning.

You can find it at most hydr. shops, or just take a bolt, a drill press and some really fine steel wool and make your own.

Best of luck.

....


Link:   Northern Tool Cylinder Breather Cap.

 
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Adding hydraulics to dump trailer

kwschumm Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 5764 NW Oregon   Pics

2006-08-11          133207

Thanks, Murf. Now I'm worried about how fast the dump box might take to drop but I guess that will be revealed after testing. ....

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Adding hydraulics to dump trailer

Murf Join Date: Dec 1999 Posts: 7249 Toronto Area, Ontario, Canada   Pics

2006-08-11          133209

Ken, you CAN use both sides of the cylinder, just be *really* careful on the downstroke that's all.

I mean REALLY carefull.......

Best of luck. ....

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Adding hydraulics to dump trailer

kwschumm Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 5764 NW Oregon   Pics

2006-08-11          133220

Murf, I was thinking of using both sides as my backup plan. Maybe one of those travel limiting shaft collars would keep me out of trouble on the downstroke. ....

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Adding hydraulics to dump trailer

earthwrks Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 3853 Home Office in Flat Rock, Michigan   Pics

2006-08-11          133222

KW: I think you're asking for trouble by a.) using power-down AND b.) doubling the chances of ripping something like a mounting point or brackety out/off by installing a stop of any kind--a failure of this sort could be catastrophic to you and/or the trailer. It just doesn't make sense for this application to use power-down in any form.

But I'm jis' sayin'. ....

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Adding hydraulics to dump trailer

kwschumm Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 5764 NW Oregon   Pics

2006-08-11          133223

I hear ya and don't want to rip anything apart. Powering the cylinder down was my backup plan only if the box drops too slow. But now let's call that plan C. Maybe plan B should be adding some weights to the front of the box. Heck, I don't even know if it's a problem yet. ....

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Adding hydraulics to dump trailer

earthwrks Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 3853 Home Office in Flat Rock, Michigan   Pics

2006-08-11          133227

KW: Maybe part of plan b would be to use a garage door spring (some rated at 175 lb.) that will roughly the same closed-and-open length as the cylnder instead of a weight since depending how vertical the box is, the weight would have minimal effect on pulling the box down, especially if you had the box dumped backed downward over a hill. Personally, for what you're doing and the design parameters you have, I don't think you will have any problems with either lifting or lowering speeds wiith just a plain, basic 2-way cylinder plumbed as a 1-way without weights, springs, etc. So let's see what the "Testing Department" says and how that compares to "Engineering." ....

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Adding hydraulics to dump trailer

kwschumm Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 5764 NW Oregon   Pics

2006-08-12          133242

Argh. The 4" tie rod cylinder is too thick and won't allow the dump bed to drop all the way. A 3.5" welded cylinder might work but I'm going with a 3" to make sure. Another week or two till engineering tests begin.

Anyone need a brand new 4x24 DA cylinder? ....

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Adding hydraulics to dump trailer

earthwrks Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 3853 Home Office in Flat Rock, Michigan   Pics

2006-08-12          133245

edited for corrections


KW: Did you know you can save a few bucks by buying direct from the mfg. Bailey Mfg. (865) 588-6010 They make TSC's line and many other retailer's hydraulic products. BTW a welded cylinder costs a lot more than a non-welded, but they take a little more space too.

I couldn't find my Bailey catalog, but they have everything guys like us would need---even parts to build your own cylinder from scratch---up to 24' long!

Prince (hydraulic pump/motor/cylinder/valve mfg.) used to sell overstock and discontinued ones. Give 'em try.

Take $20 for the old one? ....


Link:   Prince web site

 
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Adding hydraulics to dump trailer

kwschumm Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 5764 NW Oregon   Pics

2006-08-12          133247

EW, BaileyHydraulics.com takes me to autoparts.com (?)
I bought it at SurplusCenter so it wasn't that high, $190 after shipping. I'll accept your $20 offer but it will cost $140 to ship :) I listed it on the Portland craigslist for $120. Live and learn. ....

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Adding hydraulics to dump trailer

earthwrks Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 3853 Home Office in Flat Rock, Michigan   Pics

2006-08-12          133248

KW: Sorry. I should have checked the link. I made some corrections to last post with link and phone no. for two co.'s. ....

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Adding hydraulics to dump trailer

yooperpete Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 1413 Northern Michigan   Pics

2006-08-14          133272

The Bailey website is "Baileynet.com" and their toll free number is 1.800.800.1810 ....

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Adding hydraulics to dump trailer

Murf Join Date: Dec 1999 Posts: 7249 Toronto Area, Ontario, Canada   Pics

2006-08-14          133274

Ken, I don't know how much weight you plan on dumping, but a 4" x 24' cylinder will make a LOT of push power.

If, for instance, your 4" cylinder has a 2" rod, and the tractor is supplying about 1500psi to the cylinder, it will generate just shy of 10 tons of push power.

I suspect that will more than empty your 1 ton trailer, even taking the geometry and losses into account.

If you give us some of the dimensions we can easily calculate what the minimum cylinder size you need will be.

Best of luck. ....

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Adding hydraulics to dump trailer

kthompson Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 5275 South Carolina   Pics

2006-08-14          133275

Ken,

Your 4 inch cyl, didn't you recently buy a log splitter? Can you not exchange it for or towards the smaller cyl?


Is the cyl used on dump trucks one way and not powered down? Esp on dump trucks I can see where that could be a problem with the way the load does not clear the bed when dumped.

If the damage done by powering down is if the body or bed is not in alignment, can that vary with the trailer flexing due to ground? ....

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Adding hydraulics to dump trailer

kwschumm Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 5764 NW Oregon   Pics

2006-08-14          133276

Thanks, Murf. A 4" cylinder seemed plenty beefy for the trailer size. The trailer measures 80"x40"x18" high. It will be used to haul firewood and wood chips and will probably be piled high at times.

KT, yes the log splitter has a 4" cylinder that is around the same stroke size but it won't work in the trailer either. I don't want to mess with boxing it up and paying to ship it back. It's heavy and shipping is expensive (and I was pounding on the pins with a hammer so they're not in exactly new condition anymore). ....

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Adding hydraulics to dump trailer

Murf Join Date: Dec 1999 Posts: 7249 Toronto Area, Ontario, Canada   Pics

2006-08-14          133278

Ken, a box that size is only about 1.25 cu. yards.

Even if you were to fill it to heaping with fresh cut *hardwood* firewood, the load would still only weigh about 1400 pounds. If it was Douglas Fir firewood it would be about 900 pounds, chips, maybe 600 pounds because of the quantity of needles and bark reducing the mass.

I would think you could easily get away with a *much* smaller cylinder.

Best of luck.

....

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Adding hydraulics to dump trailer

yooperpete Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 1413 Northern Michigan   Pics

2006-08-14          133279

Ken:
Most dump trailers with about a 7000 GVW rating use one 4" diameter cylinder for a payload capacity of 4,500-5,000 lbs. From the size of your trailer it would seem you could go to a lots smaller cylinder size. That is, dependent upon your pumps psi capacity. ....

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Adding hydraulics to dump trailer

kwschumm Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 5764 NW Oregon   Pics

2006-08-14          133282

I ordered a 3" cylinder which should fit. Trailer is rated for 2000 lbs so there should be plenty of capacity to spare :) If the 4" cylinder doesn't sell I'll keep it as a spare for the log splitter. It's about the right size and the welded cylinder in use now has been cut open at least once from the looks of it. ....

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Adding hydraulics to dump trailer

beagle Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 1333 Michigan   Pics

2006-08-14          133305

Just a clarification on cylinder capacities. The "push" capacity of a cylinder is based on the area of the 'bore', not necessarily the rod size. The "pull" on a double acting cylinder is the area of the 'bore area minus the rod area'. For force is either direction, it's the area described above times the system pressure.

To really get a feel of how much push you need to get the box started into the dump position, you need to multiply the gross weight of the box and contents by the difference in the dump moment arm and the center of gravity of the load. In other words, if the center of gravity of the box is 4 feet from the hinge pin, and the lift cylinder pivot pin is 1 foot from the hinge pin, you need 4 times the lifted weight to move the box. In addtion, and maybe more important is the angle and orientation of the cylinder under the box. If the cylinder is on a 30 degree angle, and the cylinder pin is at the same level as the pivot pin, the vertical lift component of the cylinder is only 40% of the cylinder "push capacity".

These are rough examples, but you can see that to lift 4000lbs from the examples above, you would need (4000 x 4)/.4, = 40,000 lbs. The orientation of the upper cylinder pin to the box pivot pin can change these numbers, but these are the things to look at to determine the size cylinder you need.

We use 4" cylinders at 1500psi for our 2 ton dumps.

beagle ....

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Adding hydraulics to dump trailer

kwschumm Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 5764 NW Oregon   Pics

2006-08-19          133488

At last, almost finished trailer. The trailer isn't a bad deal for the price, but it's not perfect. One of the 1" holes for the cylinder pins wasn't drilled all the way through and had to be filed clean. The bottom cylinder bracket also wasn't quite welded straight so the cylinder didn't line up perfectly. Again, a little filing and that was fixed. And the packaging and shipping was piss poor. But for about $1k, shipping included, I have a 1-ton dump trailer. The only problem now is that when the trailer is fully up it won't come back down without a little help. The solution? Don't raise it all the way up! Here's a pic of the trailer in the down position. ....


Link:   Trailer down

 
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Adding hydraulics to dump trailer

kwschumm Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 5764 NW Oregon   Pics

2006-08-19          133489

Here's one of the trailer in the raised position. ....


Link:   Trailer raised

 
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Adding hydraulics to dump trailer

kwschumm Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 5764 NW Oregon   Pics

2006-08-19          133490

Here's a pic of the trouble area. A 4" cylinder was too thick to fit so I ordered a 3". Turns out that was too thick too. The bottom cylinder clevis mount bracket is mounted very close to the pull bar. The solution? A thick stack of washers to space the pull bar down 1/2". If I had done this before the 4" cylinder would have worked! A 2" cylinder would probably fit without any interference. ....


Link:   Trouble spot

 
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Adding hydraulics to dump trailer

DRankin Join Date: Jan 2000 Posts: 5116 Northern Nevada   Pics

2006-08-19          133491

Wow. Big files.

I guess I will go move the sprinklers and make some lunch and do a load of laundry and maybe wash the truck while one of them downloads........

:} ....

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Adding hydraulics to dump trailer

kwschumm Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 5764 NW Oregon   Pics

2006-08-19          133492

Sorry, they should be smaller now. ....

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Adding hydraulics to dump trailer

DRankin Join Date: Jan 2000 Posts: 5116 Northern Nevada   Pics

2006-08-19          133493

OK, so I exaggerated a little.

I did make lunch though.....

Have you thought about changing to a ball hitch? It would give a lot more swivel in the woods than that pin hitch. ....

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Adding hydraulics to dump trailer

DRankin Join Date: Jan 2000 Posts: 5116 Northern Nevada   Pics

2006-08-19          133494

I am trying to discern how the wheels are attached.

It looks like there is no straight across axle, but instead the wheels are set in tandem and there is a pivot between each set of wheels on either side.

Did I get it right? ....

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Adding hydraulics to dump trailer

kwschumm Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 5764 NW Oregon   Pics

2006-08-19          133495

I've been thinking about dumping the pin hitch. By cutting the pin hitch brackets off a 2" channel trailer coupler could be bolted on. I think I'll do that, the pin hitch was a pain to get hooked up. I cut down a couple of bronze bushings and nested them together to get to a 1" thickness required by my spare ball mount. Then I couldn't find a 1/2" hitch pin so I ended up bolting it all together.

Your guess on the wheels is correct. The two wheels on each side bolt to a weldment. The weldment in turn slides onto a 3/4" axle and pivots around the axle. ....

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Adding hydraulics to dump trailer

kwschumm Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 5764 NW Oregon   Pics

2006-08-19          133496

I added a pic of how the tandem wheels are mounted. ....


Link:   Wheel mounts

 
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Adding hydraulics to dump trailer

beagle Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 1333 Michigan   Pics

2006-08-19          133497

That trailer looks exactly like the trailers made by Country Manufacturing out of Frederick, Ohio. NorthernTool has them in there catalogue. The 1 ton dump has a scissors lift system and the 2-ton has a 3traight cylinder lift.

Good little dump trailers. Make for a nice tool for hauling.

We use 2-tons, other than the staight cylinder set-up, pretty darn similar to your 1-ton. We use 4"borex24" cylinders on the 2-tons. Just fit. We have to re-build the dump hinge systems. Take a good look at yours, that seems to be the weak point of the trailers. ....

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Adding hydraulics to dump trailer

kwschumm Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 5764 NW Oregon   Pics

2006-08-19          133499

This trailer was made by Millside Industries in Wallenstein, Ontario and sold by Northern. Unless they imported it from Ohio and slapped a "Made in Canada" sticker on it :) Millside may have copied the design or vice versa. It seems like a nice little trailer. The wood has pros and cons to it but it's easy to repair, replace and modify if the need arises. ....

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Adding hydraulics to dump trailer

beagle Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 1333 Michigan   Pics

2006-08-19          133509

Amazing, it's exactly the same as the 1-tons by Country Manufacturing. Wonder if there is a relationship of some kind between the two companies.

The only difference is the color. CM paints their's red. We re-paint them Orange/Black. Call them Pumkin Wagons.

Check out countrymanufacturing.com to see the similarities. They have some pretty good pictures of the scissors lift they use on the 1-ton tandem dump wagons.

Use the heck out of them..... ....

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Adding hydraulics to dump trailer

kwschumm Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 5764 NW Oregon   Pics

2006-08-19          133511

Beagle, you're right they're extremely similar but they are different. The cylinders on the ones from Country Mfg. are mounted differently and they are rated differently. Country has one with 1" axles that is rated for 2500 lbs and one with 3/4" axles that is rated for one ton but weighs less than mine. Their 1-ton model is priced much better than mine, too. Argh. I might have saved a couple hundred bucks on that one :) ....

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Adding hydraulics to dump trailer

beagle Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 1333 Michigan   Pics

2006-08-20          133515

Ya, your one ton dump set-up is similar to the way CM sets up the 2 ton. They use the scissor lift on the 1-ton because of the shorter box.

They are running some pretty good internet sales right now. Especially of you pick them up instead of paying the shipping.

That's about par. It's always on sale the day after you had to buy one.... ....

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Adding hydraulics to dump trailer

kthompson Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 5275 South Carolina   Pics

2006-08-20          133526

Ball hitch giving more movement than pin, do you mean pivot action such as tractor on one plane and trailer on another? Or going over hill or through ditch or such?

One other point the ball probably will give some advantage is less up and down free movement when dumping.

Ken, good for you to figure out the problem on the mount. No doubt you will enjoy your trailer. ....

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Adding hydraulics to dump trailer

kwschumm Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 5764 NW Oregon   Pics

2006-08-20          133530

After hauling a few loads of firewood out of the woods today I discovered that the pin hitch has got to go. It is already badly worn from the up and down twisting motion caused by driving up and down hills. Ball hitches handle this motion much better. I can't see pin hitches being good for anything but level ground. ....

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Adding hydraulics to dump trailer

beagle Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 1333 Michigan   Pics

2006-08-20          133531

I'm sure you noticed by now that you get a decent uplift at the hitch when you dump. Make sure you account for then in your ball hitch. Can't hook up to the 3-pt, have to use the drawbar when dumping. ....

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Adding hydraulics to dump trailer

kwschumm Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 5764 NW Oregon   Pics

2006-08-20          133533

That's a good reminder Beagle. I use a Bad River hitch on the 3-point which has a chain that limits up travel. It seems to do the job, at least with the pin hitch. The ball hitch will be a little less secure with up-travel. I'll have to add some safety chains and will add one to limit up travel just in case the ball pops loose. ....

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