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brokenarrow
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 1288 Wisconsin
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2004-05-06          85419

I know we are not to drill or weld on ROPS for anything like lights or other ideas. Why do manufacturers not have a option "wing" on rops that you can drill into? A non structural integrated part that is welded on to the rops at the manufacturer that if you drilled it (or even cut it off for that matter) would not effect the integrity of the system.? Just wondering if anyone here would know of why something like this has not been introduced? Or maybe it has and I dont know about it?

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dant
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2004-05-07          85447

You could "bond" a bracket on using a product that 3m makes to bond steel panels for collions repairs. Very strong stuff. Avalible at automotive paint supply stores. ....

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NHDaveD
Join Date: Dec 2003
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2004-05-07          85471

The easiest thing to do is to mount the lights to a nicely fabricated bracket and then mount the bracket to the ROPS via u-bolts.
This way you don't compromise the ROPS and your safety and by loosening the u-bolts you can then reposition the lights as necessary for the task at hand. ....

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oneace
Join Date: Mar 2004
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2004-05-07          85496

billy worx roll bar light mounts ....

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brokenarrow
Join Date: Jan 2004
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2004-05-07          85509

sorry guys, I was making a statement not asking a question. Was wondering why the manufacturer dont have the drillable wings already welded to the rops in a nonstructural location just for optional rops lights.
....

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Chief
Join Date: Jul 2003
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2004-05-07          85512

oneace, welcome back! Glad to see you changed your mind and sticking around.
....

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NHDaveD
Join Date: Dec 2003
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2004-05-08          85537

oneace, is billy worx roll bar light mounts a brand? You mean someone stole my idea? :-) Can you provide some info on them? Thanks! ....

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oneace
Join Date: Mar 2004
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2004-05-08          85547

yes. we sell them. more info to follow ....

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AnnBrush
Join Date: Mar 2004
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2004-05-08          85553

I have a second hand JD 4300 that has holes drilled into the ROPS. The previous owner said his JD dealer installed his radio speakers on it for him and that it was no big deal. The speakers were removed before I owned it, I currently have lights installed using those holes. I am wondering if the ABSOLUTELY no holes is a bit of an "urban legend"? The factory manufactured lights are mounted in holes anyway. ....

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kwschumm
Join Date: Feb 2003
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2004-05-08          85554

Drilling holes in the ROPS seems to be a murky area. A lot of folks have done it, and one would assume that the ROPS is built with a bit of a safety margin where a few small holes wouldn't cause a problem, but.... failure of a modified ROPS would surely cause the manufacturer to disclaim any liability. ....

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brokenarrow
Join Date: Jan 2004
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2004-05-08          85564


I agree. I would not be afraid to put in a couple a
1/4-20 tapped holes. Still if its not necessary why do it.
If its already there, IMHO I wouldn't sweat it. ....

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AV8R
Join Date: Oct 2003
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2004-05-08          85565

Agreed. Been there done that, working fine. Link below. ....


Link:   Work Lights

 
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NHDaveD
Join Date: Dec 2003
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2004-05-12          85838

I guess I have to agree with some of the previous posts that drilling holes in the ROPS seems to be a murky area. I'm pretty sure that there is a decent safety factor designed into the structure and that one of the reasons that the manufacturers and most dealers don't recommend that the ROPS be drilled into is due to liability.

Also, I too wouldn't lose sleep over the fact that someone else had previously drilled some holes in the ROPS especially if it was the dealer because they should know where the sweet spots (or un-sweet spots) are.

I however wouldn't say, IMHO, that if I'd done it that everything is working fine unless I'd rolled the machine and had no structural failure.

I wouldn't want the reliabilty testing of the design change to be on my head or neck or that of my wife. As with anything proper doses of caution and common sense usually work out ok. ....

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beagle
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2004-05-12          85857

I have the folding variety ROPS, and was able to use holes at the folding hinge to mount the lights. It puts the lights at about eye level, which is somewhat inconvenient when turning to look back, but didn't need to drill any holes or have brackets u-bolted to the ROPS. I can also swivel the lights backwards for 3-point work. ....

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kubotaguy
Join Date: Nov 2003
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2004-05-12          85862

You can drive down the road without a seatbelt and come out of the vehicle just fine, but it is recommended that you wear a seatbelt when driving a car. I imagine drilling a small hole (1/4") in a ROPS wouldn't hurt but then people would push the envelope and eventually they would be up to 3/4" and thus problems could begin if too many holes were drilled. Holes would allow water to get inside the ROPS and rust it out over the course of many many years. Just my $.02 ....

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NHDaveD
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2004-05-12          85863

Beagle, I like the swivel idea. Do you have to loosen a nut to do that or are they mounted to some type of swivel that is in turn mounted to the bracket? ....

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NHDaveD
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2004-05-12          85864

Kubotaguy, great analogy. I was thinking along the same lines. I'm sure that I could replace the bolt holding the seat belt to my truck with a smaller diameter one but, there was a reason that they went with the larger diameter one in the design. ....

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itsgottobegreen
Join Date: Oct 2003
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2004-05-12          85868

I built ROP mounted lights for Kubota tractors, so i can built one for your NH. See my pictures. (these are of the protype, then new one are a little different) I can weld one up for you, just send me some pictures of you ROPS. ....

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melensdad
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 90 Northwest Indiana, near Lowell and 8 miles from Beecher, Illinois
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2004-05-12          85873

Don't forget about FUTURE liability if you drill the ROPS, sell the tractor, and then the ROPS collapses when the guy you sold it to rolls the tractor and then sues you. It is easy enough to JB Weld or Marine Epoxy a bracket to the ROPS to mount your lights from. ....

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yooperpete
Join Date: Jan 2004
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2004-05-12          85874

You can get U-bolts at TSC or most hardware stores that have square bends that fit around the ROPS square framework. They can be adjustably mounted to any desired position. If you sandwich one of those adhesive backed foam pads to it, it won't scratch either. (i.e. that's how I mounted my windbreaker cab sides + door) ....

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beagle
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2004-05-12          85875

Dave, I have a wing nut on a gimbal mount, so I can rotate and swivel the lights in about any direction. I find it pretty handy for a lot of things, even when I don't have the FEL on the tractor. I almost don't use the headlights any more. ....

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Billy
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2004-05-12          85879

Where is all those structural engineers when you need them?

If you need to drill a few holes in your ROPS, do it. If you don't feel safe drilling, glue or clamp it on.

It ain't like you're gonna roll the tractor doing 30.

....

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melensdad
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 90 Northwest Indiana, near Lowell and 8 miles from Beecher, Illinois
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2004-05-12          85880

Billy, some of us live on slopes. A ROPS failure would be fatal if a tractor rolled down a hill. You go a head and drill. I don't want to take the chance. And I don't want a lawyer after me 12 years from now when the next owner rolls it.



....

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Billy
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2004-05-12          85884

melensdad, that's exactly why I said "If you don't feel safe drilling, glue or clamp it on".
....

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oneace
Join Date: Mar 2004
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2004-05-12          85887

simple solution. go to the hard ware store buy a piece of 1"x3' stainless flat stock cut them at unequal lengths according to you rops width . dill 2 holes in the smaller one and three in the longer one and make a sandwich of your rops. ....

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beagle
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2004-05-13          85925

You want it from a structural engineer, you can drill two properly spaced 1/4" holes in a ROPS structure without effecting the net section or integrity of the structure, but not without voiding the Liability of the manufacturer, or you, if you re-sell the machine. The concern for two small holes would be eventual deterioration around the holes from moisture penetration and/or improper placement of the holes. Edge distances and spacing of the holes are critical dimensions for preserving the net section of a structural element.

Any manufacturer has to recommend against any modification of the ROPS, or they would have to review and approve every modification.

This Structural Engineer recommends against drilling the ROPS. You open yourself up to liabilities or safaty hazards that far exceed the inconvenience of clamping or adhesives. If you are going to commercialy use the equipment, and have employees operating the equipment for you, don't even think about modifying the ROPS. I was lucky enough to have holes in my ROPS structure at the pivot hinge that I was able to use.

Trust me, another engineer will give you another opinion. ....

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Billy
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2004-05-13          85931

Thanks beagle, I already knew the answer, just wanted to hear you engineers opinions ;)

Anything you modify on your tractor, car, motorcycle, boat, etc etc, can come back to haunt you. There's people out there waiting for that window of opportunity to open and a lawyer chomping at the bits to help out. ....

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melensdad
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 90 Northwest Indiana, near Lowell and 8 miles from Beecher, Illinois
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2004-05-13          85932

Billy: What you said about the people out there chomping on the bit is SO TRUE and SUCH A SAD COMENTARY ABOUT OUR SOCIETY.



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commodore
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 25 Sweden
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2004-05-13          85955

As an educated engineer I
1: know that I do not know anything and
2: know what I have learnt...
Confusing? Yes.
But still:
1: ROPS is there as a safety. The manufacturer has probably made some certification around it and the only thing the manufacturer can relate to is that certification if the driver STILL get injured in an accident that leads to trial.
2: If you drill a little hole in a relatively larger pipe, the pipe can loose as much as 50% of the strengtht, due to for example tension, bending, torsion and so on.
3: If there is made a hole in a corrosionresist treated piece of steel, as one writer stated above, the corrosion resistant coating get broken and allows the structure to decrease in strength over time due to rust.
4: SAAB made a combat aircraft named Viggen for some centuries. Later a modification in the electric system needed a drilled hole somewhere in the structure. Suddenly there were a few planes dropping down from the sky without a wing, before it was stated why. Guess why.
Conclusion: NEVER MAKE A MODIFICATION TO A ROPS. I live in northern Europe in a little kingdom named Sweden and here the law is still not so tough, but what we hear from you is that an american must care for his as and have a good lawyer. I am maybe wrong, but I would be very careful in your situation.

Best regards,
Erik, Stockholm, Sweden ....

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oneace
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2004-05-13          85975

that is very right commodore, and very well stated. ....

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brokenarrow
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2004-05-13          85992

I have stayed out of the mix untill I could talk to my lawyer. I had an appointment anyway to finish up some legal matters. He says there are laws (In my state anyway) that are put into place to protect the seller (not the manufacturer) But you or me if we resell. I would not be liable for a brake job that went bad on a car that I sold because I did not "charge" you to perform the work. Now If Gottobegreen sold one of his "things" that hold the lights and it bent the rops in a roll over that causes the rops to fail on the second flip and my wife got killed, I would own everything he ever dreamed of having in his lifetime because he CHARGED me! There is more legal terms he used but that is the best recreation I could do.
As for the .204 dia. (give or take) holes for the
1/4-20 tap. (Of course you could throw a little caulk if you wanted) but I dought if any moisture will get inside the rops from the tapped holes if a plate and bolt is in there. Like someone said here before, if you dont feel safe dont do it, I feel very comfortable tapping 2 holes on each side. If I die from that, LOL Man I can tell you I have done alot more risky things in my life and maybe you have too? LOL. My attitude may be different if I had BIG hills on my place where repetative rolls could occur (and even then the rops may not hold if repeated rolls happen) Dont know just a guess I never read exactly what they are to HELP protect you from? One roll or flopping like a crappie in the bottom of a bucket?
Gottabegreen
Becarefull what you invent and sell, proper certification (of all items of possible danger) along with written instructions of what it is able to withstand (max./min.). Just ask any of the guys here that are in buisness for themselves what their liability ins. costs, its not that high for just any reason!
Take care all, I got to go drill some holes! LOL
"Just kiddin" ....

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itsgottobegreen
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2004-05-13          86000

How come this site always does this. A guy asks a simple question and everyone turns it in to a big arugment.

I wouldn't modify any safety device. Which is why i built my lights the way I did. (I am real good at modifying stuff, but not doing anything stucture to the orignal machine.) They just hang from the rops. The U bolts clamp them down. I Turn these out for B series kubota for $250. I am pretty shure i can built one to fit your needs. ....

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stevenc
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 190 North Carolina
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2004-05-13          86001

HI,,just a thought,,I would NOT drill into the ROPS,there is a safety factor there,,a tac weld may work better,,light tac weld,,just a thought,,and on most N/H tractors there is a HOT open wire at the bottom of the ROPS(roll over protection system)and wear your seat belt,,with your ROPS in the UP position,,it will save your LIFE! ....

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Chief
Join Date: Jul 2003
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2004-05-13          86006

itsgottobegreen, I am not so sure it is an arguement. It is more of a tradition here lately that has seemed to develop in which there is gamey competition to see who can poll vault the highest over mouse turds. ;o) A lot of good info. and points come out but sometimes it just goes too far and the pole vault poles get crazy. This thread is almost to the point of beating the subject to death as this subject has come up MANY times over the years. ....

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commodore
Join Date: May 2004
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2004-05-14          86020

Now that I have read Brokenarrows initial question again, I agree that the discussion has gained a lot of momentum and treat things not asked for by him.

Everybody are naturally welcome to do whatever they like. Absolutely no problem to me. One has to decide what one do to oneself and what is right to me is not selfclearly right to another. What is to be treated by law or not is another thing.

I must say that I am not really relying to the ROPS and belt if anything happen anyway. If the thing turns over, it is high probability to get injured anyway and maybe there is such a safetyfactor in the structure that a pair of holes for lights doesn´t matter.

But still it is for me right not to make any changes to safety devices of any kind. And Brokenarrow: Sorry for taking discussion higher. I do absolutely not know if there is any bolt on-lightbars for sale by any manufacturer, except for itsgottobegreen.

Erik, Sweden ....

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beagle
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2004-05-14          86060

I think some sensitivity to the fact that some people using this forum may be new to tractors, and new to the forum. A simple reference to archive information would probably be constructive. ....

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Chief
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2004-05-14          86065

Point well taken Beagle. I was trying to inject a bit of humor and levity into a thread that seemed to be going on a dry and endless track. No offense intended. ....

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oneace
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2004-05-14          86076

my question is dose it really hurt any body? With every comment or question some thing new is learned, right or wrong? I know at work if I can not figure some thing out I have a whole library of service books and other media to find the answer but first i ask my coworkers simply because if they have seen or done it before it is a lot faster and easier to get the info from them vs. looking through a pile of paper (which in nh case is not always 100% accurate or any service book I've looked at) or in this case archives. I am not saying the archives are not accurate, But they are tedious. But that is just my opinion. ....

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