Go BottomDefinition of Tractor Loader Breakout force
 | tractornewbie
Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 51 Massachusetts 
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2005-10-22 118271
I read it all the time and don't know quite what it means.
Can anyone explaing this using an example?
Thanks,
DT.
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 | Peters
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 3034 Northern AL 
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2005-10-22 118274
Breakout force is the force available to lift the FEL at the bottom of the pile for example with the cylinders fully retracted. For example an articulated wheeled loader may have a breakout force that exceeds the rear weight of the loader. When you apply the lift or curl the back end can lift before the material falls off or out of the full bucket. The force exceeds the lift capacity of the tractor. ....
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 | Art White
Join Date: Jan 2000 Posts: 6898 Waterville New York
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2005-10-22 118283
Breakout force is where any cylinder at power can no longer repond. ....
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| dieselpusher
Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 31 Arizona Pinal Mountains
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2005-10-23 118325
It is the maximun force the bucket can curl at the cutting edge using the curling function of the joystick. ....
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 | Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999 Posts: 7249 Toronto Area, Ontario, Canada
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2005-10-24 118357
Art has it correct, but not very clearly.
Maybe a better way to describe it would be to say it is "the maximum amount of upward force the FEL can generate using all of it's hydraulic circuits combined".
BTW, it is often a very misleading term since the lift & curl circuits are not capable of generating 100% of their independant power if used together, yet some manufacturers still "calculate" the breakout force by adding the maximum curl to the maximum lift capacities.
Best of luck. ....
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| tractornewbie
Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 51 Massachusetts
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2005-10-24 118360
Thanks for the info.
If breakout force is the maximum upward force, then why is that number different than the maximum lift capacity in the specs?
What's the difference?
Thanks again,
DT.
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| Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999 Posts: 7249 Toronto Area, Ontario, Canada
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2005-10-24 118362
DT, breakout force is measured such that it includes ALL the forces available to the bucket to scoop up some material, not just the lift cylinders.
With my L4310 for example, it will (in theory) lift 1,874 pounds in the center (fore & aft) of the bucket, but is rated at 3,125 pounds breakout force.
This is because curling the bucket won't help you lift something, but on the other hand, the combination of curl and lift will make a huge difference in breaking a scoop of dirt out of a pile for instance.
Clearer now?
Best of luck.
....
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| tractornewbie
Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 51 Massachusetts
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2005-10-24 118364
Yeah thanks Murf.
I understand now.
DT.
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| dieselpusher
Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 31 Arizona Pinal Mountains
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2005-10-24 118370
Break out force is the weight that the bucket can curl or roll back. ....
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| Art White
Join Date: Jan 2000 Posts: 6898 Waterville New York
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2005-10-24 118386
Now to go a step further as you are all right but on some occasions cylinders do need power on in and out strokes and with different uses both push and pull and they all have a certain breakout force that can be rated on either end. ....
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| tractornewbie
Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 51 Massachusetts
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2005-10-24 118392
So basically it's the sum off all cylinders available power at any one time, independant of the direction and axis of motion.
I get the idea.
DT.
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| Art White
Join Date: Jan 2000 Posts: 6898 Waterville New York
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2005-10-25 118398
Not quite, with a backhoe there are other cylinders that are used to support the bucket and place it while the curl is used but they don't count in the rating. To have a little fun you might be able to bench press three hundred lbs numerous times, at three fifty you can maybe do one at a time, your break out force would be 350lbs! Not quite the same as many operators will crowd the breakout force many times in a day while digging but it's as close as I can make it. ....
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| denwood
Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 542 Quarryville PA 
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2005-10-25 118454
I thought breakout was measured in 2 ways. bucket breakout is the curl and regular breakout was measured at the pivot where there would be no curl. Backhoes are usually rated both ways, but as far as my JD book, the loaders are rated at the pivot where curl would not play a part while my Kubota r520 was measured as bucket breakout. ....
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 | jarndt
Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 351 Northern Virginia
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2005-10-26 118465
It sounds like there is a lot of confusion over the correct technical definition of breakout force. Maybe a quick email to the Kubota, Deere or New Holland hydraulics engineering department would help clear things up? ....
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| Art White
Join Date: Jan 2000 Posts: 6898 Waterville New York
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2005-10-28 118558
I don't see a problem with the way it's measured as Denwood is just refering to how Deere so to speak rewrote the book a few years ago to their advantage before everyone caught up with measuring at the pivot point. It's a near useless point as I'd not seen that in the industry as a point of reference as it doesn't include the bucket weight or the fact a normal load is 15" forward of that point which is were they normally would measure from. It takes out the weight of the bucket so their loaders looked good on paper for a person that doesn't read between the lines or far enough. You have what the loader or hoe was built to do all day in the normal rating, you should not be buying a unit that you have to be against the breakout force for your normal running, it is nice to know but one error and you have a bent ram or a blown cylinder! ....
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| denwood
Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 542 Quarryville PA
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2005-10-28 118596
I guess you go out and hire a crane with an inline scale to make sure your load is just right for your tractor before you pick it up. I like most people just try to pick it up and if it goes, great. It is quite simple. I needed a mid frame compact, not a large frame, not a utility tractor etc. I still want the greatest boom breakout possible. You can rarely have enough strength (structural and hydrauic), but you can easily have too much size. I run it to the max all the time. The primary reason I bought deere was the breakout, rated at the same point as everyone else so there was no trickery. At that point, deere smoked everyone. That may be different now. I am not name biased and have owned most brands in some form or another. Bucket breakout just doesn't cut it, because curl will not get you very far off the ground. Boom breakout is where its at for lifting and there needed to be some uniform point to measure from, so pivot seems to be a good one. Hydraulic relief is there for a reason, each company can choose their own based on their machine. Has anyone ever checked out the cheesy breakout on McCormick tractors. I called the corporate office thinking it was a missprint and they said the weak italian front axle could not bear any more so they set the relief low and hence the flimsy breakout even though the loader was capable of much more. I assume Deere evaluated their machine and set breakout to match. ....
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| cmbrucker
Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 4 Augusta, GA
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2008-06-17 154662
Breakout force is probably best described as the amount of force or pressure (indicated in lbs per sq inch) required to free an object or load from the material it is surrounded or imbedded in. Many of the folks that responded to your post indicated curl/lift capacity of the hydraulic system on the machine, and while they're related...they're not really true breakout force.
For your example...if you have a small boulder imbedded in clay substrait that you need to move, the breakout force required is the force needed to overcome the coefficient of friction across the surface of the boulder that is contact with the surrounding material and it's weight (gravity) to break the object loose of the surrounding material. Often, a machine (such as a trak or excavator) will be able to break out an object that it can't actually carry or move. The same is true of an FEL
Maxing out you breakout force really comes down to your choice of bucket. Your machine's hydraulic capicity is fixed. A mud or sand bucket is sufficient for most applications, but if you're looking to break out asphault, concrete or similar material...you need teeth on your bucket to concentrate the force of your hydraulic system to break it out.
Make Sense? ....
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 | auerbach
Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 2168 West of Toronto
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2008-06-17 154664
Casually, with your bucket bottom flat on the ground, you drive it as far as it will go into a pile of, say, gravel. You try to lift but it won't, so you rev up and curl. Will that break the load free (after which you can reverse a bit and try raising?) That depends on your breakout force.
Technically (ISO or International Standards Org.), it's the maximum upward force in kN measured 100mm (or ft/lbs and 4") aft of the cutting edge, achieved by the bucket cylinder(s), that is, the curl function, or in geometric terms the rolling moment around the bucket hinge. The machine must be on a hard level surface, bucket bottom within 25mm (1") of the ground, standard tires with standard pressure, a block under the front axle to keep the pivot geometry the same, revs not to exceed redline, no extra weights or tiedowns on the rear. (If and when the rear lifts, that defines the breakout force.)
If that datum is important to you, try to find out if the company used the ISO procedure, but it's associated with dedicated loaders, as opposed to a tractor on which you later mount someone else's FEL. Also, the figures are for a new machine, and as the pump, cylinders, and engine get tired, the force declines a bit. On the other hand, in use, the front squats, increasing the force. ....
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 | kthompson
Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 5275 South Carolina
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2008-06-17 154665
Since this has opened back up, less move to a backhoe set up. They give a rating on each option, the boom up, the dipper arm back and curling the bucket. In looking at mini excavators a while back noticed (if memory is correct) Bobcat's numbers for the bucket were much higher than the other two. Of the machines I looked at specs on this seemed to be more so with Bobcat than anyother manf. One person told me a reason for that and now not sure but think it was the bucket design. So a shorter bucket would give you more breakout force in real use, is that correct? kt ....
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| Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999 Posts: 7249 Toronto Area, Ontario, Canada
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2008-06-17 154667
All good information, but since the this thread has been dormant for nearly 3 years now, not likely of much help to the original poster either. ;)
Best of luck. ....
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| cmbrucker
Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 4 Augusta, GA
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2008-06-17 154671
Hey KT,
In short, your post is right on....what it comes down to is the hydraulic power of your machine (and "run in power" if you're on an FEL) and both of those variables are fairly fixed when the machine is maxed.
The only way to optimize the breakout force beyond what your machine has in it is to reduce the surface area you're applying to the object you're trying to break out...in other words, a narrow bucket with rock teeth will apply greater overall breakout force or pressure than a wide bucket with mud teeth or sand blade. It can make a bigger difference than most might appreciate...
Make sense? ....
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| cmbrucker
Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 4 Augusta, GA
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2008-06-17 154672
It might not be able to help the original poster, but understanding fosters knowledge... and when we better understand the best ways to overcome the obstacles that we bought our equipment to overcome...the better off we all are!
Besides, isn't it fun to just talk about??? :) ....
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 | bvance
Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 280 The Great Pacific NorthWet, Olympia, WA
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2008-06-17 154678
Even if this thread is 3 years old, it's still interesting and especially to those of us that weren't around then.
After reading all of this technical data from folks that are a whole lot smarter than me about these sort of things, (or have the time to look it up) doesn't it really come down to the maximum rated lift capabilities of the FEL? Most folks would never really understand the technical definition of break out force and it sounds as if it was concocted by some marketing guru anyway, so why not just concentrate on the rated lift capabilities and call it a day?
I love this definition of marketing: The ability to arrest one's intelligence just long enough to extort your money.
Stick to the fundamentals and everything else usually takes care of itself.
Brian ....
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| kthompson
Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 5275 South Carolina
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2008-06-18 154680
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Ok, which political handbook did you find that in? It sure is much the thought process that makes our laws or influences them. kt ....
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| auerbach
Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 2168 West of Toronto
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2008-06-18 154682
I wonder why this 3-yr-old thread recently appeared under Active Subjects.
I assumed the questioner was asking about loader buckets, as they're more common than hoes, but perhaps not. (I know about bucket specs because I researched them when I was buying a FEL and no two dealer people gave me the same answer. Don't know exactly how it's measured on a hoe.)
Incidentally, "breakout force" has a quite different meaning for aircraft pilots. And prison officials. ....
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| Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999 Posts: 7249 Toronto Area, Ontario, Canada
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2008-06-18 154683
Somebody replied to a 3 year old thread, it happens all the time, while it is educational, it's also sometimes a little humorous, like when someone replies to a several year old "I'm looking for...." thread and says they have one for sale.
You are sort of correct, 'breakout' force is a flying term, but it still relates to the same basic principal, a measure of the amount of force required to cause motion, in this case a rudder or such instead of a bucket.
Any time a capacity or measure is quoted though it is usually, especially with tractors and such, a theoretical measure, and even then just calculated, not measured in the field. For instance, things like pump volume are calculated by merely multiplying the displacement of the pump times the maximum operating rpm of the engine. That is NOT to say you could achieve that when the pump output is measured at a useful point like the remote plug point. FEL ratings are similarly 'fudged' IMHO since they are a math exercise only, the result of 'X' psi (hypothetically) times 'Y' area of the pistons and over the geometry of the FEL frame. In the real world, you can take 25% of that number and toss it away, you'll never get close to that published number. Start with the system, put a pressure gauge in any system and see how close you get to 'system' pressure as per manufacturers spec's......
Best of luck. ....
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| bvance
Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 280 The Great Pacific NorthWet, Olympia, WA
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2008-06-19 154690
KT,
Even though it is a comment that sounds like it would come out of a political handbook, of all places, I got it from a tea bag tag! :)
Brian ....
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| kthompson
Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 5275 South Carolina
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2008-06-19 154693
Brian, you are right, never would have thought that was where you got it. BTW, how was the tea? kt ....
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| bvance
Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 280 The Great Pacific NorthWet, Olympia, WA
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2008-06-20 154743
KT,
Tea was great. My favorite brand, Good Earth. ....
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