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Septic System-Problem

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bmlekki
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 185 Upstate, NY
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2004-07-06          90208


Over the weekend the misses was doing laundry and I was out in the front of the house, when I noticed for the first time a lot of funky smelling water coming out of the ground where I figured the tank was. So I started digging. I hit the cover about 1' 1/2, down, and it was a large circular metal lid that was sitting on top of 1x6 lumber.
There was very little scum on top maybe 2 inches worth. I took enough water from the top to see the bottom of the exit pipe the leach field. As I was doing this I saw the water flowing back into the tank. Soon as I had the level down low enough I could tell the baffle was rotted away, rendering it useless. SO I hopped that the plug up was at the distribution box. I started digging up the pipe coming out the tank. The white PVC pipe comes out about 3 feet and makes a right hand turn and after the turn as Im digging I notice some of the unmistakable black dirt so figured the was a crack in the pipe... Nope its the perforated stuff! So far I only have about 6 feet of it dug up. Note that when I dug out around one of those holes, water came right out. Also I can't believe that they just buried this in clay dirt, with no gravel.

I purchased this place in April of 2004, and it's just my wife and I, with a cloths machine, and a dish washer that runs a couple of times a week.

I plan to build my house in the back in hopefully 10 years, and move the modular out of here. So I would like to do a cheap fix that will work for the mean time.

I was thinking that I should continue digging it up to see where it goes. If I could get some gravel and place it around the pipe and make/fix the baffle to get me by for a while.

Please let me know if, (a)you have an idea how old this is,(b)if it is fixable with maybe a couple more runs with gravel around the runs. Remember Id rather not start from scratch as I would have to build another one up the hill.
Thanks for your input!


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kwschumm
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 5764 NW Oregon
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2004-07-06          90225


Do you have a water softener that drains into the septic system? I have heard that sodium and clay soil can combine into a sort of impermeable barrier that will render the leach field useless. Since you just bought the place, did the seller disclose any septic problems? If they did not then you may have recourse there. ....

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kwschumm
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 5764 NW Oregon
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2004-07-06          90226


By the way, here's a link to a product called septic protector that I'm a believer in. This is a simple filter assembly that goes on the discharge hose of washing machines. It filters out a lot of lint that would otherwise get flushed out to the leach field and could eventually plug it up. In our case it filters out a few handfulls of lint each week. Over a period of time it can really add up. If nothing else this site has a lot of information on septic systems. ....


Link:   Septic Protector

 
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TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley
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2004-07-06          90244


It sounds like a job for a pro and very likely would turn into a new system. Regs here prevent most repairs to any system that's below current code. There are some things that can help leach fields but I wouldn't be too hopeful unless the outlet is blocked somewhere. Leach fields don't last forever.

These things can turn into very expensive problems since new conventional systems can't be approved for some properties. Of course, operation of an inadequate system can get expensive too. However, irrespective of rules you really don't want to contaminate yours or anybody's well. Maybe hope for an intact tank, too much paper, a blocked outlet and a fairly decent leach field.

If you're not ready for a new system, a possibility is that existing system wasn't intended for modern family use. Reducing the flow through it might get you by. One way to reduce flow is to try for approval for a gray water leach pit and run the laundry and bath water into the pit. ....

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Oliver
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 210 Massachusetts
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2004-07-07          90254


A few years back I faced a similar problem on a vacation property. The house is on an island, set about 10 feet from the water; the house and septic were put in in 1932. Wd ended up digging out (by hand) the perforated pipe that led to the "leech field" (using the term very loosely) and replacing it. After having the tank pumped out, this fix lasted for about two years until we put in a very elaborate, up to modern code (and not in espensive!) system that linked the two houses and two outbuilding together onto the same system.

It was a dirty job, but not too difficult. ....

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hardwood
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 3583 iowa
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2004-07-07          90255


When you speak of finding a metal cover on top of some 1X6 lumber I'm afaid ypu've got a system that will be real tough to bring up to code. We found a similar system on a farm we bought several years ago and had to replace the whole system to sastify county codes. I'm sure that different parts of the country have different codes, but I'm doubting many codes would allow any wooden tank covers, that's exactly what we had and "NO Dice" with the county. I'm not wanting to bring bad news, but I'm real afraid it going to mean a new system. Good luck. Frank. ....

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TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley
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2004-07-07          90259


We're waiting for the contractor to get around to installing a new system right now. The old system works OK but I knew the cedar logs covering the top of two cement block tanks were rotted after I had it pumped several years ago. We had a sinkhole over part of the secondary tank this spring after the snow melted. I stuck a shovel in just to verify that a log had given away. Word from the officials was 'no dice no repairs' even though it's working just fine. We went with a gray water pit and composting toilet at our camp to avoid codes that otherwise require a full residential system.

Good luck, and just hope for adequate perc tests and adequate property size and well location should the need arise. Till it's sorted out it might be good to do laundry and baths someplace else, avoid flushing and maybe have any well water used for drinking tested. Of course, in some places a failed water test invites more official problems. Better to have official than health problems though for both you and your neighbours. ....

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Septic System-Problem

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bmlekki
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 185 Upstate, NY
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2004-07-07          90263


What is the diffrence between taking the honey wagon out across the field and spreding it on top as to all the codes for a septic? We've only got fields around us...

Is it possable that i dont even have a leech field and just this perf. pipe set in the dirt??

No water softener...
So let say that i need a whole new system, all options are default.. codes,plenty of space..blabla.. Whats this project going to cost me for a new system...

Thanks.. ugh ....

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TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley
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2004-07-07          90266


In Texas there were no codes for rural properties over 10 acres. Might still be true but at least requirements would vary widely so costs would be hard to say.

Some old systems are nothing but a 55-gallon drum and a length of leach line. It works OK for low flows in sandy soil. In clay there's a good chance that stone would have been used in the field itself but maybe not around the feed from the tank to the field.

Nothing wrong with a dedicated field for spreading and there's one in use near here that's in a municipality and fairly close to residential areas. Our government here in Ontario has a bill to ban all spreading of human waste but they haven't quite found a solution yet. Ours will be pumped and spread for $150 compared to $600 - $800 if the government ever bullies municipalities into taking waste from rural areas.

The system approved for our small house and sandy soil is an 800-gallon tank and 200' of leach line in 4 50' runs. It will cost around $3,000CN.

....

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yooperpete
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 1413 Northern Michigan
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2004-07-07          90270


In my area of Michigan with clay soil, a 3 bedroom ranch (1400 sq.ft.) with single bath needed a 2000 gallon tank with 800 feet of field filled in with sand and then stone to have it to code. Cost was about $6,000.00 two years ago.

It had a 600 gallon tank with two people with about 600 feet of field backfilled with stone that lasted about 30 years.

If you don't need to meet code, you definitely can get by with lots less. The concept of a 55 gallon drum and leach lines for your washer and sink water really reduces the strain on the septic system. I have that setup on one of my farm houses. That has been in place for over 20 years without a hitch. The inspector is not aware of this, however. ....

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AnnBrush
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 462 Troy OH
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2004-07-07          90271


You may be just over the edge of the systems capacity (causing big problems) reduction of water use may push it back to being workable. Consider doing the following: Make temp repairs to the septic system and drastically reduce your water usage. Buy a water friendly front loading washing machine and a water saver dishwasher amongst other water saving devices, think about how much water you use every time you use it. You could probably get by with limited expense. ....

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bmlekki
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 185 Upstate, NY
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2004-07-07          90272


I plan to clear the dirt around the the perf pipes and put some gravel around it so the water has some place to go. What size gravel would i order, and is there defined amount to place around a 12 foot length?? ....

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ncrunch32
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 762 Kingston, NY
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2004-07-07          90274


When my system went bad I put in a drywell and routed all gray water to the drywell (which was 80% of the water). I put a rock drainage field on the downhill side of the drywell. Got me by for the remaining time I spent at the house. ....

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Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999
Posts: 7141 Toronto Area, Ontario, Canada
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2004-07-07          90279


Generally speaking you do NOT want to put stone around the leach field (perf.) pipes. The system will work the best if there is heavy soil below the pipes and sand then light sandy topsoil planted in short grass over the pipes.

The water is supposed to go up out of the pipes not down. When it goes down there is the opportunity for contaminating the ground-water, when it goes upwards the water evapourates and the plants digest the nutrients.

As was already stated, if you can divert a lot of the water away from the system completely that will be a BIG help.

Also be careful putting material down the drain which could serilize the 'good' bacteria in the tank, things like soap, bleach, etc. should be only allowed in REALLY minute quantities.

A lot of the old timers around here saythe best way to kick-start a septic system is to buy a quart of buttermilk and leave it on the counter for a few days then pour it down the drain, apparently the bacteria in sour milk is the same as hwtais needed for your septic to work.

Best of luck. ....

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Affordable Tractor S
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2004-07-07          90282


I 'm a plumber by trade. You need to cut a 18"- wide ditch put 6"- of 1-1/2" gravel below the pipe, 6"- above it then use straw to cover the gravel and a sandy loam finish.This is the proper way to install the system.
Tommy
Affordable Tractor Sales Co
Bellville,Texas
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Septic System-Problem

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harvey
Join Date: Sep 2000
Posts: 1539 Moravia, NY
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2004-07-07          90286


bmlekki You do not show where in Upstate. But almost all of the watersheds in the fingerlakes region REQUIRE a complete septic inspection before the property transfer can take place.

Me thinks the Deleware basin is in the same boat.

You make have a legal recourse. Either from the previous owner or the orginazation that inspected it.

However I like to keep other out of my business and would bite the bullet and fix it my self by installing a new field either down from existing or rigth on it. ....

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kwschumm
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 5764 NW Oregon
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2004-07-07          90287


Although the idea of a grey water system is great, not all codes allow them. We wanted to put one in here (Washington County, Oregon) and the code wouldn't allow it (bureaucratic stupidity). If you plan on going this route it would be a good idea to see if it's allowed. ....

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lucerne
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 192 Lucerne Maine
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2004-07-07          90298


I'm sure this isn't a cure for the system nor would you want to buy one,BUT, an Asko washing machine uses 5.7 gallons of water per load compared to 50 to 55 gallons in a regular washer. In the spin cycle they spin 1200 rpm so when the clothes come out they don't take long in the dryer, saving money. They also only use about a teaspoon of detergent per load. When you first buy one and run your clothes through the first time, they recomend not to use detergent because there will be enough left in your clothes from the old machine to suds the machine right up. They also heat their own water saving money,for whites it heats the water to 210 degrees compared to 120 on a regular machine, so no bleach is needed.They are Swedish made and made to last a long time. ....

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TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley
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2004-07-08          90327


The specs for the approved gray water pit at our camp were: a 6' x 12' pit allowing for stone on the bottom. The pit has a central open-bottomed cube of approximately 4' built from cement blocks facing outward and capped with a cement slab. The pit is filled with stone. Untreated building paper is placed over the top and it's covered with top-soil. The paper prevents soil intrusion until it firms and plants start growing and then deteriorates. It is rated for 1,500 liters daily in our sandy soil.

In our case only 1' of the pit is below grade due to a high spring water table. That's Murf's point about ground water contamination. It's an issue even for gray water. What works depends both on the soil's perc rate and minimum water table depth. I don't think codes allow both a septic and a gray water system.

Some of the codes make sense and some don't. It might be good if gray water pits were encouraged and then adequate septic systems might be smaller. Since the government decided that frequent pumping is good but spreading is bad, maybe smaller systems might make sense. Not withstanding the requirements of 'offadumb,' there are quite a few open bottomed 55-gallon drums down slope from houses that seem to be adequate for laundry and dishwater sized volume. They are more prone to freezing though. ....

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ncrunch32
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 762 Kingston, NY
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2004-07-08          90330


When I put in the drywell in I was told they were NOT allowed when installing a new septic, however, they were allowed as an after-the-fact addition. In other words, a new septic system had to be rated to handle ALL of the waste water from the home. The tank was a preformed (1000 gallon?) concrete tank installed with lots of rock around it. The black spots in my leech field went away quickly but it didn't take long before I had problems with the drywell since so much water was going there. I then had to bring someone else in to add a 2'x2' trench about 75 feet long filled with rock and covered with straw on the downside of the drywell tank to help get rid of the gray water. Obviously this was not to code. I went several years to the sale of this house without problems. ....

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grassgod
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 566 ct
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2004-07-08          90366


bmlekki - one of my customers had a simular situation as you. He dug up all the leeching & preforated pipe & put 2 feet deep of 3/4 inch stone under & over them. he didnt put the topsoil back on, he let the stone go right to grade level. That bandaid worked for him. It costed him 3 days of labor & a couple hundred for the 20 tons of stone. Goodluck. ....

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bmlekki
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 185 Upstate, NY
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2004-07-08          90369


Thanks to all for your input...

As always!!!

Take care.. ....

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mtnfever
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 6 Lindsborg Ks
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2004-07-16          91160


im a master plumber, ive been in the business for over 30 years. i have run across the older septic problems you have. you can extend your leach fields to get you by but you should consider replacing the tank to code. If it is possible for some one to drive any type of vehicle onto that tank they could end up in it. I have had to remove backhoes from caved in tanks. Not a fun job. ....

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Septic System-Problem

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earthwrks
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 3853 Home Office in Flat Rock, Michigan
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2004-08-04          92708


Yooperpete:
I'm southwest of Detroit (a Flatlander to you). Around here in clay, they are called "engineered systems" and can cost $14,000 to $20,000 for the system you described. ....

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lbrown59
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 931 First Organized Permanent Settlement In The Northwest Territory.
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2004-11-03          99757



Drain fields or leach beds were used prior to the advent of the aerator because the septic tanks back then weren't very efficient treating the waste so the effluent required further treatment after it left the tank.

Around the late 60s to early 70s The aerator septic tank was developed which eliminated the need for Drain fields or leach beds as the effluent from them is 98% pure

The aerator is designed to operate properly and efficiently using an open unobstructed drain pope to discharge the effluent from the tank.

I seriously question the wisdom of obstructing the flow of this drain pipe in any way which is exactly what happens when you replace the drain pipe with a drain field or leach field in a vane attempt to purify the remaining 2 percent after the tank has removed 98% of the impurities.
Adding a drain field or leach field to the tank is sorta like plugging the tail pipe of a car or restricting flow in the exhaust pipe.

I seriously doubt that a drain field or leach field removes much if any of the remaining 2 percent after the tank has removed 98% of the impurities.

Suppose it did remove 1% of the 2% but the drain field or leach field caused the tank to drop from 98% efficiency to 96% efficiency.

We now have and expensive inferior septic system and the overall efficiency has dropped from the 98% we had before adding the drain field or leach field to the 97% we now have with the drain field or leach field.

Seams to me this whole leach field inspection permit thing was drummed up to keep the installers in business and generate revenue from permits and inspections while providing busy work for Gov. officials.
=============================================
bmlekkis problem is a perfect example of how a leach bed screws up an otherwise near perfect septic system.

Adding a leach bed to a septic tank creates future potential problems while providing no improvement to the performance of the tank.



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lbrown59
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 931 First Organized Permanent Settlement In The Northwest Territory.
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2004-11-03          99758


I plan to clear the dirt around the the perf pipes and put some gravel around it so the water has some place to go. What size gravel would I order, and is there defined amount to place around a 12 foot length??
bmlekki
==================
Tanks are designed to operate with a clear free flowing unobstructed outlet out of the tank.
A leach Bed is not a clear free flowing unobstructed outlet.
Adding a leach bed is an open invitation to tank failures such as yours. ....

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AV8R
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 882 North Central Wisconsin
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2004-11-03          99759


We call it a drain field or conventional septic system, and thy work great around here in the sandy soil. Have the solids pumped out of the tank every year or two and it'll be good. ....

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clarasmithh
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 2 canada
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2013-01-31          186103


Home septic systems use a tank, organic bacteria and ground soil to filter waste water and return it to the ecosystem. The soil acts as the final filter, cleaning pathogens and bacteria and returning water to the ground. The result is a slow but environmentally safe waste disposal method. Septic systems require maintenance. For instance, toilet paper can be used, but some flush-able wipes cannot.


http://pumpcoseptic.com/timely-service/ ....


Link:   Alpharetta septic tank pumping

 
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