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wet insulation

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8x56mn
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 167 Watkins Glen NY
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2010-03-07          169018


Guys, I'm having a dreadful time. I'm building a new kennel, part of it is cement block and part is stick built. The stick is where I'm experiencing moisture in the walls. The out side is metal with Tyveck over OBS board. Now here is where I made my mistake. The walls are 2x6 and I put in R19 fiberglass backed insulation. After thinking about this I decided to put another layer of R19 over the original. I did not remove the paper from the original layer. I was worried about moisture in the wall so I read that I should cover the entire thing with plastic. When my son came today to apply the paneling to the walls we discovered that mold had started to form on the OSB board between the insulation and the interior of the OSB . We plan to pull away the insulation and spray down the OSB with bleach to kill the mold and also peel away the inside layer of paper.

The wall is only 2 months old, can't believe this happened so fast. Will doing what I described cure the problem? Should I remove the plastic? How do I prevent moisture from building up? What's a guy gonna do.:(



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wet insulation

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kwschumm
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 5764 NW Oregon
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2010-03-07          169020


I am not a builder but will had my 0.5 cents. Since the general rule is to put the vapor barrier plastic or insulation face on the warm side of the wall I wonder if there's a requirement that a healthy vent space be allowed between the metal siding and OSB to allow it to breathe.

I don't know if a bleach spray will be adequate, sorry. If it were me I'd tear it out but then that's real easy to say from here.
....

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wet insulation

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earthwrks
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 3853 Home Office in Flat Rock, Michigan
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2010-03-07          169021


Having done hurricane rehab on the coast, bleach over time will not work. Especially with OSB being flaked material, the mold will continue to grow. And it continue to puff up ruining the steel siding. I feel the OSB behind the steel with or without a barrier is not necessary, and could harbor moisture. I would just side it with metal, insulate it without doubling up batts (if they are being compressed that actually reduces the value---needs air space), then apply plastic barrier to inside, then install paneling. ....

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wet insulation

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8x56mn
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 167 Watkins Glen NY
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2010-03-08          169024


Thanks for the feedback. Taking of the OSB at this point is not an option the building is 55x20, lot of steel and board. Too costly at this point. I was worried about the steel siding, but was hoping the Tyvak would prevent problems. I am thinking of puling of the insulation, spraying with vinager solution and puting in on a new layer of r19 foil backed and then applying sheeting. What do you think Look forward to any help. ....

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harvey
Join Date: Sep 2000
Posts: 1539 Moravia, NY
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2010-03-08          169025


Pull out the insulation. Add in attic vent sticks 1x2 on edge just to help keep insulation away from outer wall and promote air movement.

OSB next to steel is not good.

As said above do not pack the insulation it has to be "FLUFFY" to work best.

If the walls are framed I would also drill a couple of holes in the top plates to allow air to excape. ....

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earthwrks
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 3853 Home Office in Flat Rock, Michigan
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2010-03-08          169029


Like I tell my customers pay me now to do it right or pay me double to redo it later. The mold will--or likely has--- eat into the studs after it destroys the OSB. My pole building guide says to use plastic sheeting or 30-lb felt paper between the siding and insulation---doesn't address your situation as normally siding over OSB is redundant.

The black mold when inhaled (and a doctor warned me about even skin contact) that you get that thrives on cellulose is known for causing brain damage, permanent memory loss and even death. Think of the liability you have already exposed yourself to--- assuming your kennel is a commercial operation--now that is in the public domain. Good luck getting insurance or a claim if this comes to light.

And the mold/moisture in the wood will continue to react on the fasteners rusting them and cause the siding to rust--Tyvek is not a cure-all and is not an advisable or suitable product---it' meant to be used with breathable siding like vynil that could see some venting and allows the siding to slip or slide without creating noise.

Before you do anything contact your building inspector if he is respected and get his opinion. ....

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hardwood
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 3583 iowa
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2010-03-08          169031


Just a question drifting around in my head.
I've used and helped use Tyveck under siding and I know the builders all use the stuff, so how or why is it better than common clear plastic?
We built a small heated workshop probably 25 yrs. ago with the stud walls consisting of from the inside out.
Sheetrock
Clear plastic
Roll insulation
Chip board
Tyveck
Steel siding.

We sold that place five years ago, but far as I know the shed is still fine. I really never knew if that was the correct way but just the way the carpenter I hired did it. ....

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wet insulation

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auerbach
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 2168 West of Toronto
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2010-03-08          169032


If you get in there and scrape and spray, you won't solve the problem but you'll get so sick you won't worry about it. It's dangerous and stubborn, so learn how to remove it properly or hire a pro. ....

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Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999
Posts: 7141 Toronto Area, Ontario, Canada
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2010-03-08          169033


As EW mentioned, you can spend some money and do it properly now, or a whole bunch to do it right later on, your choice.

IMHO I think the problem is two-folds, first, the double layer of insulation has formed a water trap in the walls, and second, the vapour barrier in the wall is in the wrong spot. Vapour barrier should always be between the insulation and whatever comes next. By putting the OSB next to the insulation you are actually forcing water into the OSB.

Your best solution IMHO is to pull off all the interior boards and have someone spray foam insulate the walls. The next best thing would be to remove the middle vapour barrier, spray down everything, including (lightly) the insulation, with an anti-microbial spray solution, then apply a poly vapour barrier, and finally, reinstall the OSB, but bad side in. Then you can paint the mould over with an anti-microbial stain-hiding paint such as Zinnser's B-I-N shellac-Base primer-sealer.

Frank, Tyvek and plastic have one big difference between them, Tyvek breathes but is water resistant. So if water makes it inside the siding it can't penetrate any further, but the building can still breathe. It has a unique construction that allows small amounts of air to pass, but is still wind resistant so it stops drafts.

Best of luck. ....

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earthwrks
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 3853 Home Office in Flat Rock, Michigan
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2010-03-08          169038


Like I said earlier, the OSB is redundant. So why not just remove it rather than all the work and money to remove, paint and rehang only to semi seal-in the mold. If it can't completely and thoroughly dry it will be semi sealed in and continue to fester, and being OSB the flakes will swell regardless of how much paint is used. And this all may be moot if the OSB is so detiorated it may just crumble as it's removed.
....

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8x56mn
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 167 Watkins Glen NY
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2010-03-08          169043


OK, I do not have the interior board installed yet, just the insulation (2 layers) and then OSB then Tyvak and then steel. I was planing to take out the insulation exposing the OSB, spray with vineger and let dry and see what happens. It's easy to say to rip everytrhing out, however that is a lot of money to spend if I don't have to. There seems to be mold in a couple of places in the entire wall. I'm just sick about this. ....

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8x56mn
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 167 Watkins Glen NY
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2010-03-08          169044


OK, please understand there are no interior boards. It's steel, tyvak,OSB, insulation batts with vapor barrior. The mold is on the warm side of the OSB. I agree by using the double layer of inulation and not removing the vapor barrier on the first or cold side layer I trapped moisture in the walls. The wet is in a few spots not the entire wall.. I'm pulling the insulation down and letting the OSB dry out before spraying vineger. I am also thinking about having a 1" layer of foam sprayed over the OSB to stop the mold. I know spend now or spend later, easy to say but I don't have the money to spend now. ....

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harvey
Join Date: Sep 2000
Posts: 1539 Moravia, NY
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2010-03-09          169055


Neighbors u 2 lakes over.

You will have problems with the osb and steel next to each other. You may be able to mitagate it somewhat.

I think you can minimize the issues by ensuring there is a air gap between the insulation and the osb. Either use thin verticle strips or the thin foam sofit vents used to keep insulation away from roofs blocking air flow. I would also make sure there are holes in the top plate to allow air movement. In addition to that use just 1 vapor barrier next to the warm wall only.

Good Luck I'll also ask a couple of buddies over at Finger Lakes for their thoughts. ....

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hardwood
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 3583 iowa
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2010-03-09          169056


8X56;
I know it's too late now snd perhaps you have learned this too by now. Somebody makes a chipboard now with a glue that will not absorb water, one of the guys at the local lumber yard was showing it to me. It has a shiny appearance rather than the dull look of regular chipboard. They have a small piece in a bucket of water that has been there for a couple months and has shown no sign of swelling so far. ....

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8x56mn
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 167 Watkins Glen NY
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2010-03-09          169070


Well I pulled out more insulation and the problem is everywhere some a little some worse. Only good thing is its white mold not the blsck stuff. I'm have a foam insulator comeing over to give me a price on foam. I understand that will seal off any mold that is trapped in the wood and prevent anymore contact with warm to cold. ....

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8x56mn
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 167 Watkins Glen NY
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2010-03-09          169072


Well I just got a quote form Sunrise Insulators over in Dundee for 2200. This is for 3" of foam, gaurenteed to stop further moisture problem and prevent any air flow into the walls. The only down side is I will have to scrape all the material that I have put in so far. Throw away 2000 and spend another 2000 grand plus. :( ....

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harvey
Join Date: Sep 2000
Posts: 1539 Moravia, NY
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2010-03-10          169079


I do not think I'd throw it away. What do you have for attic space? Peel the barrier off it and add to attics.

Craigs list also will work.

Also receipts for energy tax credits this year. ....

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8x56mn
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 167 Watkins Glen NY
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2010-03-10          169094


Yup, I'm with you on that, Bagged uo the stuff and put upstairs for future install. I started to remove some paneling that I had started,wanted to look and see how bad that was, it's wet as well, I will be able to reuse it as it came off pretty easy, just had to slice it along the top edge because the drop cieling is in place at that location.

Thanks to everyone for the help. ....

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ddudeck
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 7 Indianapolis, IN, USA
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2010-03-12          169136


A great source for informatio on this topic is http://www.buildingscience.com/doctypes/designs-that-work
There is alot of info that is specific to the many climatic regions. You should also search their site for insulation installation instrucitons.

Hope this helps! ....

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