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pto generator speed question - help

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FarmCarpentr
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 7 Frederick, MD 21701
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2009-03-04          160775


I am looking at a 50kw pto generator that I can use with my tractor.

If the pto idle on my tractor sometimes goes really slow and I am just using the generator to run a backup (pre-heating) water heater for the buildings, would that hurt anything in the generator? Would the generator burn up or something?

The water pre-heater is DC. I can convert the AC from the generator to DC and pre-heat the water for my large water heater, so any electric (volts or amps) that the generator puts out is fine for it. There is nothing wrong with the tractor, this is just a condition of what I am using it for etc. The size of the tractor is not an issue. What else I am using it for is not an issue. I am just interested in what effect running the generator really really slow has on the generator itself. The generator is rated at 1800 rpm.

Thank you.


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pto generator speed question - help

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harvey
Join Date: Sep 2000
Posts: 1539 Moravia, NY
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2009-03-04          160776


Unless you are running a large operation a 50KW is way overkill. You will need a 100hp tractor to operate it at full power.

That said a 20 hp tractor will run that generator if you only need 10KW or less.

You will have to run the generator at rated rpm at all times in order to get the 240 or 110 volts at 60 hertz. You can not run it less or you will damage your appliances similiar to brown out conditions. ....

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pto generator speed question - help

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FarmCarpentr
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 7 Frederick, MD 21701
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2009-03-04          160777


"I am just interested in what effect running the generator really really slow has on the generator itself." ....

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pto generator speed question - help

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kwschumm
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 5764 NW Oregon
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2009-03-04          160778


It probably depends on the generator. If the generator has any sort of filtering/conditioning electronics on the output side it could damage them by running components out of spec. ....

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pto generator speed question - help

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Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999
Posts: 7155 Toronto Area, Ontario, Canada
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2009-03-04          160779


First off, unless you have a free tractor and free diesel fuel, what the heck, let's throw in a free replacement for for the tractor and genset for when they die, this is about the least efficient way I can think of to even just pre-heat water.

Off the cuff, I'd say it would probably more efficient to either run a loop and use the engine coolant directly, or run the exhaust out through the water.

Aside from all of that, yes, loading a tractor up at low speeds is not a good idea, and the genset will burn up in reasonably short order too.

Every genset I've ever seen is cooled by means of a fan on the armature. If you run it at just above idle speed, you asking it to work full out with minimal air flow for cooling.

Best of luck. ....

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pto generator speed question - help

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FarmCarpentr
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 7 Frederick, MD 21701
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2009-03-04          160784


Filtering or conditioning electronics: I am now looking into that for removal of them.

When I am running the generated electric through a bridge rectifier for resultant DC electric, then I do not need all that stabilization of the volts and Hz.

Thank you. ....

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pto generator speed question - help

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FarmCarpentr
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 7 Frederick, MD 21701
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2009-03-04          160785


I did not say a genset. You personally added that and then argued against your own personal addition.

I did not say that I was loading any tractor up at low speeds. You personally added that also and then cursed me for burning up the non-existent genset that in your imagination you personally added.

A pto generator is not a genset nor a generator set: It has neither motor nor engine to drive it. The engine is different in that it is what the pto generator is attached to. If you know tractors, you know that there exists a variety of pto drives including direct to engine, or clutched, or slip clutched, or hydraulic, etc. The engine of the tractor can run at a variety of speeds, all of which you seem to assume much about.

It is a simple question. Your arrogance of telling me off for asking it is something you will have to deal with on your own time. ....

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pto generator speed question - help

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AnnBrush
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 462 Troy OH
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2009-03-04          160786


Now you have 4 replies - It's not a good idea. The genset is rated to operate continuously at 540rpm or thereabouts. Idling it will not help prolong the life of the genset and as Murf pointed out will likely shorten it. In addition to some mechanical and heat concerns electrical components may stress due to altered sine wave patterns generated by a slower turning armature. These stresses would be present regardless of the load's ability to use the altered power wave form. Its quite possible that at slower speed the sine wave developed is actually a square wave. This wave form has documented problem causing effects in electronic devices rated to perform on properly controlled sine wave power.

The use of the term genset in place of "PTO generator" in this case is irrelevant, I think all the people who so kindly replied to your post appreciate that point. ....

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pto generator speed question - help

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Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999
Posts: 7155 Toronto Area, Ontario, Canada
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2009-03-04          160787


Ok, I'm not exactly sure where any of that came with, but good luck with your personal issues.

A "genset" is a generic term for anything that makes electricity, it is a common abbreviation for "generator setup" and is used to refer to BOTH engine/generator sets AND PTO (or other forms of drive) types of generating equipment.

BTW, re-read my post, I neither 'told you off' nor 'cursed' you.

Best of luck. ....

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pto generator speed question - help

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FarmCarpentr
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 7 Frederick, MD 21701
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2009-03-04          160788


Thank you for pointing out that definition of a genset. I shall accept it.

4 replies is "not a good idea"? How can that be when asking a question? Does not the clarification of concepts apply to asking a group a question?

My question was and is:
....

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pto generator speed question - help

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Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999
Posts: 7155 Toronto Area, Ontario, Canada
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2009-03-04          160789


I really do not understand your last reply, but regardless, the idea you have is deeply flawed for two main reasons as well as a myriad of lesser ones.

First, running the generator slowly will harm it. It may only reduce the life, IMHO significantly if the load is anything but very minor.

Secondly, the amps a circuit draws in direct relationship to two operatives, the voltage and the load. As you reduce the voltage, without reducing the load, in this case an inductive heating coil, the amperes rise in direct proportion.

For example, if a 120 volt circuit draws 15 amps, then putting 12 volts to it will result in a 150 amp draw in the circuit.

The excessive heat alone in a situation like that would be enormous.

Best of luck. ....

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pto generator speed question - help

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FarmCarpentr
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 7 Frederick, MD 21701
TractorPoint Premium Member -- 5 Tractors = Very Frequent Poster

2009-03-04          160790


That is a lot of flack.

My teenage kids tell me it is all my fault.

Maybe it is all my fault. Maybe I asked the question wrong. Maybe I assumed the wrong things. Maybe that is why some of you seem to be attacking me. Maybe you are not attacking me and maybe I just think that you are. I shall reconsider and accept the answers as useful.

Thank you all.
....

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pto generator speed question - help

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hardwood
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 3583 iowa
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2009-03-04          160793


I know very little other than the basics of electricity, but to answer your question on low speed operation of a PTO generator. I bought a 45KW PTO generator a couple years ago, the dealer instructed me me to always run the pto at 540 no mater what the load level, and always have the generator up to speed before kicking in any load. Mine is a Winco, it has a meter on the side with a green zone where I'm to run the pto speed to keep the needle in the green. ....

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pto generator speed question - help

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DRankin
Join Date: Jan 2000
Posts: 5111 Northern Nevada
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2009-03-04          160795


Are we all talking the same language here?

This is the weirdest exchange I have seen in a long time.

FarmC, you can chill out a bit, we are all friends here. But if you can't there are some really good threads in the archives on wood splitters that might interest you, just in case that chip on your shoulder gets too heavy someday.
....

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