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 | ncrunch32
Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 762 Kingston, NY 
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2006-06-04 130425
Is there a common range of torque settings for oil plugs when you change the oil on tractors, cars etc? I know I can call the dealer for each vehicle/engine but that would take lots of phone calls. I have, until now, used judgement but I think I generally go too tight. I guess my nervousness goes back to my youth when I stripped a pot metal oil pan underneath one of my Dad's cars. I have finally acquired a full set of torque wrenches and would like to save time by not second guessing the tightness on the plug for 15 minutes!
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 | Art White
Join Date: Jan 2000 Posts: 6898 Waterville New York 
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2006-06-04 130430
The torque would change depending on the plug's threads and diameter. ....
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| ncrunch32
Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 762 Kingston, NY
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2006-06-04 130431
Thanks Art, I guess there is no "rule of thumb" here. I wonder what places that do oil changes (like Valvoline, Jiffy Lube) do as far as torque is concerned. Do they actually torque every oil plug to manufacturer specs based on make/model of car? ....
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 | earthwrks
Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 3853 Home Office in Flat Rock, Michigan
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2006-06-04 130434
Your question reminds me of when I used to write automotive service manuals. We writers would put in a bogus torque spec in our drafts just to see if the engineers were actually proofreading our stuff since they were required to buy-off on it. We got so tired of them NOT correcting our bogus specs that we started writing in "tighten until it breaks then back off 1/4-turn." That got their attention---but not every time. But they still wrote in their own guesstimated (read: bogus) specs because they felt they had better things to do than give us the right info (and we'd kick right back to 'em until it was right).
To answer your question; I don't torque any of mine to spec. And it depends on what type of gasket or seal, if any, is on it. I have had the dummies at the local oil change tighten the plug so much that it split the hard paper gasket.
(NC: A bit [okay, way off] off topic, but some trivia nonetheless: the term you used "rule of thumb" is an 800-year-old term that was actually a rule or law that a man could not beat his wife with a stick or branch larger than his thumb!) ....
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 | DennisCTB
Join Date: Nov 1998 Posts: 2709 NorthWest NJ
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2006-06-05 130439
EarthWorks,
Thanks for that insight, I have a torque wrench, but have only used it on cylinder heads and such. I have always felt that for for simple stuff like Oil plugs the torque specs were more there to CYA the mfg. in the event a customer uses a 3/4 inch drive socket on an oil pan and strips it. Not their problem too much torque beyond spec. when you use an oversize wrench.
If you use an appropriate size wrench most people should have no problem.
As to those oil change places, the ones I have seen hire a bunch of kids where it takes at least three or 4 to do the job.
- One to work the computer and try to get add on work,
- another to stick an Air Conditioning hose into your car
- another to hand you your choice of reading material
- another to take the specs from the computer guy to get the filter
- yet another to crawl under the car and drain it.
I was in Florida at the time, and it was my daughters car so I had no choice. I thought it was comical at the time, and I was concerned that they really had no clue as to what they were doing beyond the show, and I still change my own oil, so I know that it is done right. ....
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| Art White
Join Date: Jan 2000 Posts: 6898 Waterville New York
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2006-06-05 130445
I remember when taking the training for Huey repair they had a working question on tightening a nut to 30 inch pounds. I sure did blow that question! Being used to farm machinery and cars I'm more a one or two click guy on the elbow for foot pounds, where for inch pounds I found they are on the wrist. ....
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| ncrunch32
Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 762 Kingston, NY
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2006-06-05 130446
Dang - I don't get to use that new torque wrench under the car! Well I have been demonstrating to my wife my limited mechanical prowess of late by rebuilding the Kohler engine on the Gravely this winter and just installing a new water pump on the boat this weekend. I talked her into the value of torque wrenches and bought a couple on sale at Sears this weekend.
Dennis - I too have never gone to a oil change place - but can envision having to do it as I get a little older. But you give me additional reason not to go there as long as possible. Earthworks - like Dennis says - thanks for the insight - very interesting. Also - I guess a garden hose would be all right for the wife since it is smaller than a thumb? :) ....
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| ncrunch32
Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 762 Kingston, NY
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2006-06-05 130447
Art - inch-pounds vs foot-pounds. I almost blew that one this winter when reading the Kohler service manual. One table of numbers was in foot-pounds, the next in inch-pounds. It required careful reading. ....
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 | kthompson
Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 5275 South Carolina
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2006-06-05 130468
Not a big NASCAR fan but wondered on the same type topic watching race. Those guys win and lose a lot of money on simple stuff. No doubt they tighten everything just right. No room for mistakes.
So where are the torque wrenchs in the pits for tire changes? Am sure the impact wrench has a limit to it, but a factory value?
....
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 | Iowafun
Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 955 Central Iowa
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2006-06-05 130469
When I worked on a race team, we torqued the lug nuts when going out for practice, qualifying and to start the race. After that, it was up to the guns. The guns are setup for high speed with a targeted torque based on the inlet air pressure from the regulator on the nitrogen supply tank. The high level teams may actually dial their guns in. We didn't have the money to do that.
We actually chased the nuts with a tap to clean the threads before each race. We learned this after having slow pit stops due to nuts that hung up or went on slow due to the threads being less than perfect from the manufacturer. Once the nuts were cleaned up, they went lickety split. When the gun stops and the trigger is still pressed, you have plenty of torque on the nut to keep the wheels from coming off.
There is probably someone out there that knows what the top level teams do today. This is what we did 6 years ago. ....
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 | Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999 Posts: 7249 Toronto Area, Ontario, Canada
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2006-06-05 130477
Our entire fleet is equipped with quick drain fittings from new.
A 1/4 turn on valve is all that is required to drain or close each reservoir. The valve handles and housings are drilled, and each valve is tie-wired shut after each service. This provides both a safety feature and an anti-tampering indicator.
Mind you, this time of year our machines get new oil & a filter basically once a week also. We are more likely to wear the threads out than strip them!! LOL.
For the wheels we have a special set of 3/4" drive extensions, they have a pre-set torque value each, and are colour coded, it doesn't matter what the impact gun is set to, or how hard you yank on a Johnson bar the extension just spins free when it reaches it's pre-set torque value.
Best of luck. ....
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 | WillieH
Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 543 New England 
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2006-06-07 130574
After awhile, one develops a "feel" for the right torque, if performed often enough.
It is difficult to tell someone how tight is tight, vs., nice job ace...you just stripped the threads!
I have always been a believer that, "tight is tight, over tight is broken".
my 2 cents ~
- Willie H ....
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| kthompson
Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 5275 South Carolina
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2006-06-07 130580
Willie,
You may be right, but I thought overtight was "stripped".
As to being able to "feel" the proper torque: those guys changing I guess 5 lug rims which means 10 lug nuts to proper torgue in a second or so each is right quick feeling.
Guess the song "Feelings" was written about those guys.
I do agree there is a common sense feel to proper torqued nuts and bolts. ....
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| Art White
Join Date: Jan 2000 Posts: 6898 Waterville New York
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2006-06-07 130583
Murf, where do you get those drains from? My boats a PITA to change the oil in if I want a total drain and I know they have the top suction outfits which I'm on my second one but I'd like a drain plug with the petcock and a hose.. ....
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| ncrunch32
Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 762 Kingston, NY
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2006-06-07 130590
I find it interesting that, in a forum where the answer is usually in favor of precision - "read the manual" - "get the specifications" - "do it right", the answer to the torque for a bolt most commonly removed from a vehicle is "use common sense" and "feeling". Oh well - guess that's the only alternative for now.
....
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| WillieH
Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 543 New England
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2006-06-07 130591
"Feelings...wo wo wo Feeeeeelings....."
Good point! lol
Kt,
yea, I know, the proper terminology would be 'stripped', but I learned it from being a wee little thing, in my dad's shop ~ as I used a hammer and screw driver to disect my matchbox cars (lol) many moons ago. I would not have been able to comprehend 'stripped' at that age, so next best thing - 'broke'.
- Willie H ....
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| ncrunch32
Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 762 Kingston, NY
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2006-06-07 130592
Do you have the treble clef notes that go with that? Actually my last name is associated with a world class singer. Unfortunately I will have to confine my singing to the shower. ....
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| WillieH
Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 543 New England
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2006-06-07 130594
...the singing ALWAYS sounds good on paper. LOL
When I try to sing in the shower, the water runs backwards!
-Willie H ....
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| Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999 Posts: 7249 Toronto Area, Ontario, Canada
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2006-06-07 130596
Art, we use a regular brass petcock valve that we order from a local jobber, the drain plug should be a standard thread.
We used to use the Fumoto Valves, but they were both expensive, and harder to safety wire shut.
However for something like your boat where you don't have to worry about somebody's little darling draining the oil pan over the weekend the Fumoto will be fine. See the link below.
Best of luck. ....
Link: Fumoto Valve
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| ncrunch32
Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 762 Kingston, NY
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2006-06-07 130597
Art, do you have an I/O or inboard? On my I/O I don't know how I would get under the engine to install this or to reach it when I wanted to drain it. I also have had my share of frustration with top suction pumps. ....
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 | DenisS
Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 367 NJ 
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2006-06-07 130599
I can't believe with all the bright minds participating in this thread, no one has mentioned oil plug seals. Here is how you know that you have the right torque: get a plastic oil plug seal that matches your plug. Then, when you tighten the plug, watch when the plug starts to squize the plastic out. Just after you squized the plastic, it's tight enough. Have used this "gauge" on all my cars/truck and never had any leaks. Same could work for aluminum seals if you're weary of plastic, though aluminum is obviously harder to deform so you have to account for that. ....
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| WillieH
Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 543 New England
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2006-06-07 130600
DenisS -
Although the plastic seal/washer probably will work in many if not most applications, I had an ugly experience with it.
I had a 6 cylinder, that for whatever reason, decided to run hot. It ran so hot (not the coolant, rather the oil), that it baked the paint and alligatored the paint on the oil pan. All of a sudden I realized a leak of oil - actually smelt it as I was driving down the highway, sealing the roadway and everyone behind me, with oil.
Apparently, the plastic seal melted, and because there now was no tightening pressure to secure the oil plug, the plug fell out. Needless to say, the rest of the story wasn't exactly cheap.
A similar incident happened to me from an oil filter seal. The oil filter backed off the stud causing a leak by. Fortunately for me this time, I caught it in time and saved it. One might consider that the oil had just been changed, and the elements in question were not properly secured from the gitgo. But, that was not the case, as it was about 2000 miles into the oil change when it happened.
Many manufacturer's today, have either a plastic, brass, or copper washer as a compression seal, or as you pointed out, an aluminum washer seal. I have never had an issue with my I/O seal, or tractor seals letting loose (knock on my wood hard head, lol). Just the six cylinder Ford, and I won't soon forget that experience.
I guess I am in the lower percentile....
- Willie H ....
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| DenisS
Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 367 NJ
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2006-06-07 130601
no more plastic washer seals for me. ....
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 | Billy
Join Date: Oct 1999 Posts: 975 Southeast Oklahoma
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2006-06-07 130611
I've had cars/trucks/motorcycles with plastic washers (I really think it's more like Teflon), copper washers or none at all. Never had a problem out of any of them. ....
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| kthompson
Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 5275 South Carolina
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2006-06-08 130630
Willie,
Broken, understand.
Paint on oil pan, not sure who is doing what on painting oil pans but the last few on autos I have seen (floor too far last few years) have not been painted. My father in law's mid 70's chevy pickup came with no finish on oil pan. When he asked they told him it was to help it give off heat. ....
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| WillieH
Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 543 New England
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2006-06-08 130632
kt -
You know, now that you have me thinking about that, the new pan was not painted, but the original from Ford that had never been changed was - it was painted black.
I can remember that Ford had an "issue" with the oil pans from this vintage, as when I went to replace it (thinking I'll have to order one at best - no one will have any on the shelves), the local Ford dealer remarked we have 17 on the shelf.
The newer ones were of heavier gage steel, as well as a different seal design. Wandering abit from topic here, but ya got the noodle thinkin' !
Definitely was painted black, vs new plain Jane.
BillyP - teflon, that was the word I was thinking of - not plastic ~ thanks.
- Willie H ....
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| DenisS
Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 367 NJ
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2006-06-08 130634
Well, ncrunch can still use a soft aluminum washer to gauge the torque on his oil-drain plug - no worry about breaking or melting there.
ncrunch,
Trying to find a good use for your torque wrenches.
The CUTs do come with torque specs for all the bolts (have to be questioned in light of comments by earthwrks), maybe that's where you can put them to use. I understand you have to check all the bolts every 200hrs or so. ....
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| DennisCTB
Join Date: Nov 1998 Posts: 2709 NorthWest NJ
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2006-06-08 130640
The oil pan on my Honda Pilot is cast aluminun with no paint as it does not need it. I guess that helps it run cooler. ....
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| ncrunch32
Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 762 Kingston, NY
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2006-06-08 130641
DenisS - yep, I bought my first 1/2 torque wrench for the tractor. That's what got me started. Then needed torque wrench for rebuilding kohler engine. Then for torqing new water pump on my boat.
All of a sudden in my 50s I am in torque heaven!! I just can't stop torqing anymore. Its outta control :) ....
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