kubota 3 way valve VS 4 way valve
smwelden
Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 7 Michigan |
2004-10-12 98185
What is the difference between a 3 way valve and a 4 way valve for controling the FEL? I choose the 4 way for my quote because it wasn't that much more, but am wondering if I really need it? What will it do that the 3 way won't?
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kubota 3 way valve VS 4 way valve
s chrand
Join Date: Aug 2004 Posts: 77 Mid-Michigan |
2004-10-12 98189
I remember seeing this in some of the literature for the FEL for my BX, and when I asked the dealer he said that with the 3-way the down motiion of the FEL (not the bucket tilt) was gravity driven, not hydraulicly driven as it is with the 4 way valve. He then pointed out that either they didn't make the 3-way any more, or that he didn't bother quoting it to anyone, I can't remember which.
You want the 4-way.
David ....
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kubota 3 way valve VS 4 way valve
beagle
Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 1333 Michigan Pics |
2004-10-12 98193
a 3-way valve operates single acting cylinders, or put another way, only supplies pressurized flow to one work circuit. A 4-way valve is required to supply pressurized fluid to both ends of a cylinder. Gravity is ussually in place to retract the cylinder.
A 4-way valve is required if you want to use the FEL valve for most other front implements that have double acting cylinders ( power both ways ). get the 4-way valve, it's worth the extra money even for loader operations. Power down is very usefull in many applications. ....
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kubota 3 way valve VS 4 way valve
shortmagnum
Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 848 Wisconsin Pics |
2004-10-12 98196
"Power down is very usefull in many applications."
Like when the front tires sink down two feet into a swamp hole. :-0 ....
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kubota 3 way valve VS 4 way valve
beagle
Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 1333 Michigan Pics |
2004-10-12 98200
Or when you favorite son sinks both ends two feet into a swamp hole, along with his truck that he was going to use to pull out the tractor. ....
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kubota 3 way valve VS 4 way valve
smwelden
Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 7 Michigan |
2004-10-12 98204
how confident are you in this... from my research, the 4 way allows for an additional cylider to be operated... for example a clamping (4 in 1) bucket. I am confident that kubota would NOT manufacture a FEL that didnt' have power in both directions. For example, the dump cylinders on ANY modern bucket MUST have power bothways. Therefore, a 3 way valve would provide this since it is the standard option. ....
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kubota 3 way valve VS 4 way valve
beagle
Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 1333 Michigan Pics |
2004-10-12 98206
3-way valve - single acting cylinders, 4-way valve - double acting cylinders. The "way" refers to the porting on the spool piece of the valve, or the number of "ways" the fluid flows.
For more information, and the other types of spools available for valves, go to Pricehydraulics.com and search through the valve section of their site. They have a good site and some useful information on the types and applications of different types of SCV valves.
I design hydraulic jacking and shoring systems for a living. ....
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kubota 3 way valve VS 4 way valve
beagle
Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 1333 Michigan Pics |
2004-10-12 98212
By the way, I have the 4-way on my LA402 loader. 3-way was on option, I paid a couple bucks extra for the 4-way. No extra cylinder here. Remote circuits can be added through the Power beyond Port. ....
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kubota 3 way valve VS 4 way valve
AV8R
Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 882 North Central Wisconsin Pics |
2004-10-12 98213
Sm: 3-way on a FEL is
1-Bucket Curl
2-Bucket extend
3-Loader arm lift
Loader arm drop would be done by gravity, therefore not needing power. This is the way a 3-way valve would power a loader.
For use on a modern FEL, you want a 4-Way. ....
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kubota 3 way valve VS 4 way valve
Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999 Posts: 7249 Toronto Area, Ontario, Canada Pics |
2004-10-12 98214
Beagle, the 3 way on a FEL is sort of a misnomer, it is actually a 2 way valve and a single-acting valve connected to the joystick instead of a pair of 2 way valves as we would normally see.
When they go from a 3 way to 4 way on the FEL there is no 'extra cylinders' added, the only difference is that the cylinders on the loader boom are double action instead of single action cylinders.
Best of luck. ....
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kubota 3 way valve VS 4 way valve
JimMcD
Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 8 Doylestown, Ohio |
2004-10-12 98219
I have a 2410 with a la352 loader. When I bought the tractor they told me if I wanted to put a front blade or snowblower on the tractor I would need a four possition spool valve. I don't know if that is what you are calling a four way valve? I have always wondered if I got a four possition valve. I tried out tractors with loaders before I bought mine and all had down pressure and was told they had three possition valves. The only thing I have noticed is when I dump the bucket there are two possitions on the dump. If you push the lever to the right against what feels like a stop the bucket will dump. If you push it harder to the right it will go farther and will dump about twice as fast. I have no idea what this is or what this is for. If some one knows, let me know. The second possition feels like the float on the boom except the lever does'nt stay in that possition when you let go of the lever. ....
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kubota 3 way valve VS 4 way valve
KLJ
Join Date: Posts: 1 |
2004-10-12 98222
Kubota calls the standard valve 3 way, It has down presure. Some of the Kubota 3 way & 4 way nonsense has to do with mounting to the tractor. The problem with the 3 way is that the dump circuit is regenerative so it will not run some options. The 4 way has both standard and regen operation on the dump circuit. The regen will overcome some cylinder and motor operation and lock it up since it can't bleed back. Hpoefully someone can give a better explanation. ....
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kubota 3 way valve VS 4 way valve
beagle
Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 1333 Michigan Pics |
2004-10-12 98230
A regenerative circuit allows exhaust fluid to be regenerated back to the power circuit without having to go to exhaust, enabling faster cycle times with less fluid flow. Don't know if that is any better or not. ....
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kubota 3 way valve VS 4 way valve
beagle
Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 1333 Michigan Pics |
2004-10-12 98232
What may be happeneing here, after re-reading some of the posts, is some confusion over venacular. In hydraulic system terms, the "way" refers to the porting of the spool, or the number of flow options as the spool is moved.
The added "way" on the 4-way valve is the ability to supply pressurized fluid to either work port, enabling it to supply pressurized fluid to either side of a cylinder, or operate a motor in either a CW or CCW direction.
What Kubota uses the terminology for may be different. When I ordered my loader, the dealer asked if I wanted a 3-way or 4-way valve. I never asked for a clarification, I got a 4-way valve. After some digging based on this discussion, in Kubota terms, the only difference may be the regenerative cicuit on the 4-way valve. For sure, there aren't any extra work ports.
Murf, a little confused by your reference to 2-way valves. Technically, a 2-way valve wouldn't be a valve at all since it would only have supply and exhaust, with no pressure work ports. The venacular can get messy. My wife is from Quebec. Living with her, I know all about confusing venacular. Maybe you and her can take this discussion further. :)
I still recommend anyone interested visit the Princehydraulics website. They do a good job at defining the technical terminology and differences in spool valve configurations.
....
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kubota 3 way valve VS 4 way valve
DRankin
Join Date: Jan 2000 Posts: 5116 Northern Nevada Pics |
2004-10-13 98247
When I had my BX22 I found a passage in the owner’s manual that explained the difference between the 3 position valve and 4 position valve.
It is the addition of a two stage (two speed) dump cycle.
....
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kubota 3 way valve VS 4 way valve
shortmagnum
Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 848 Wisconsin Pics |
2004-10-13 98254
"It is the addition of a two stage (two speed) dump cycle."
There seems to be plenty of confusion here. I also found the same definition for the L3130 in my manual and have tried the two dump speeds. However, the dealer IMPLIED that it was an extra port, as in allowing someone to power a snowblower. He said "everyone north of the Mason Dixon line orders the 4-way valving." At least that's the impression I had at the time.
Dave ....
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kubota 3 way valve VS 4 way valve
beagle
Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 1333 Michigan Pics |
2004-10-13 98259
Agreed, in Kubota's terminology, the regen circuit on the dump seems to be their difference between 3-way and 4-way.
The discussion is worth while so someone doesn't think they can buy a 3-way valve froma hydraulic equipment supplier and operate a double acting cylinder with it. ....
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kubota 3 way valve VS 4 way valve
Ciderman
Join Date: Aug 2004 Posts: 5 Central PA |
2004-10-13 98284
Terminology seems to be the problem.Kubota uses it incorrectly.What they are calling a 3way valve is in reaility a 2 spool open center control valve. The first spool is double action(DA) with float,the 2nd spool is just DA.this control valve will run DA cylinders with both spools.The control valve they call 4way is a 2 spool open center with float and a non regen internal circuit.The 1st spool is DA with float and regen.The 2nd spool is da with the first position non regen.The 2nd position is regen.
This is what Jim McD is refering to when He says he can push
the control lever to the right against what feels like a stop then on over to dump faster.The 1st position will allow
you to run a hyd motor (chute rotation on the snow blower,optional.)The 2nd position farther to the right is a
DA circuit with regen thus the faster dump on the FEL.You cannot run a hyd motor with a control valve that has only regen. ....
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kubota 3 way valve VS 4 way valve
kevinj54
Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 31 Michigan |
2004-10-13 98285
Technicaly (sp) the dump circuit is double acting as you have presure both ways, in my discussions with Husco the regen dumps the oil from the small (rod) end back to the piston side so if the oil can't exit the cylinder it will hydro lock. If you reverse the hoses to your dump circuit it will only move one way. But the kicker here is that on the BX units to run the snowblower you do not need the dump side, it is needed with a hydraulic blade which has two angle cylinders so in the mounting they only supply one valve. ....
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kubota 3 way valve VS 4 way valve
smwelden
Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 7 Michigan |
2004-10-13 98288
I see I am not the only one who doesn't know.... :)
I am concluding the only difference is that a 4-way uses the "exhaust fluid" before it gets back to the resivoir. Because of this, the cycle time of the loader will be faster. Please concisely correct me if I am wrong. ....
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kubota 3 way valve VS 4 way valve
kevinj54
Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 31 Michigan |
2004-10-13 98290
Ciderman, I missed your post. You described it very much like Husco explained it to me. ....
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kubota 3 way valve VS 4 way valve
DRankin
Join Date: Jan 2000 Posts: 5116 Northern Nevada Pics |
2004-10-13 98292
"But the kicker here is that on the BX units to run the snowblower you do not need the dump side, it is needed with a hydraulic blade which has two angle cylinders so in the mounting they only supply one valve."
The kicker is really that Kubota uses the scoop/dump (right-left) circuit to raise and lower the basic blade system. If you get the 4 way blade the raise/lower (fore-aft)circuit is used to angle the blade.
I got the impression that the "fast dump" on the 4 way valve is used to quickly lower the blade which is far lighter than the FEL and therefore much slower to drop. ....
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kubota 3 way valve VS 4 way valve
beagle
Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 1333 Michigan Pics |
2004-10-13 98294
Technically, a 4-way valve doesn't necessarily have a regen circuit, but could. Kubotas 3-way valve is really a 4-way valve, without a regen circuit. Kubotas 4-way valve is a 4-way valve including the regen circuit. A regen circuit alone can't run a hydraulic motor because there is no external fluid flow., although a 4-way valve that only has regen. in one direction is really a 3-way valve. Each spool is a valve. Most FEL's require at least 2 spools.
Yikes!!! I'm out. ....
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kubota 3 way valve VS 4 way valve
AV8R
Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 882 North Central Wisconsin Pics |
2004-10-13 98295
Okay-okay. Now does anyone have a link to a good "Hydraulics-for-Dummies" site? I'd like to get to know some of this terminology. ....
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kubota 3 way valve VS 4 way valve
kevinj54
Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 31 Michigan |
2004-10-13 98308
The kicker is really that Kubota uses the scoop/dump (right-left) circuit to raise and lower the basic blade system. If you get the 4 way blade the raise/lower (fore-aft)circuit is used to angle the blade.
I would think that the blade would raise and lower with the up down motion so you had float. The snowblower and blade hook up the same and I use the loader lift/float spool amd assumed the blade andle would be left/right ??? If I were to rig a hydraulic motor for the chute it would run off the dump control. ....
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kubota 3 way valve VS 4 way valve
DRankin
Join Date: Jan 2000 Posts: 5116 Northern Nevada Pics |
2004-10-13 98309
I am relating the manner in which my BX was plumbed. It was done, and double checked, by the dealer. ....
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kubota 3 way valve VS 4 way valve
kevinj54
Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 31 Michigan |
2004-10-13 98310
I am relating the manner in which my BX was plumbed. It was done, and double checked, by the dealer
Thats interesting, I put all my own on and the manuals are not real clear but I guess I do not want a blade or blower that will not float. Next time I go to the dealer I will ask how they hook them up. On mine it just a matter of which spool I plug the lift cylinder onto, it can work fron either spool. ....
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kubota 3 way valve VS 4 way valve
kevinj54
Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 31 Michigan |
2004-10-13 98311
I went and got out the hitch manual. From the manual " The hoses are connected correctly when the quick hitch lowers when pushing the hydraulic lever forward. If operation is not as desired, reverse hoses" from quick hitch manual page 16. They do not say which spool or reference the color code. ....
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kubota 3 way valve VS 4 way valve
daveknowshow
Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 35 virginia |
2004-10-13 98312
< scratching head very confused think i'll wait b4 i buy till i get a masters degree in tractor talk! lol ....
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kubota 3 way valve VS 4 way valve
s chrand
Join Date: Aug 2004 Posts: 77 Mid-Michigan |
2004-10-14 98333
Instead of believing what I was told by my dealer (which I posted earlier), I looked at the manual that came with my loader (la211). It confirmed what what Mr. Rankin posted, that the difference is a two stage (two speed) dump cycle. It also showed the valving attached to the loader on the 3-way version, and described connecting a bypass hose to the hydraulic connections (only three) on the tractor when the loader is removed. That would mean that if a hydraulinc front implement is used, the valving would also have to be added.
David ....
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kubota 3 way valve VS 4 way valve
AV8R
Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 882 North Central Wisconsin Pics |
2004-10-14 98342
When I picked up my snow thrower, the dealer also had hooked it up to the "dump" control of the FEL. I switched it to the lift control to get the "float" position, and have never had a problem. I don't think it matters to function, just to weather you want the float position. ....
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kubota 3 way valve VS 4 way valve
Ciderman
Join Date: Aug 2004 Posts: 5 Central PA |
2004-10-14 98369
I think the main thing to keep in mind in this whole discussion is that over time Kubota has changed and improved their hyd.system to accomadate new features on their implements.What works on one tractor does not work on another,depending on the hyd. system and controls.An example would be as follows.Snow throwers used to lift and lower using the 3point hitch.No need for aux.hyd.at all.Then they offered a front cylinder lift option that used the FEL control valve to operate the cylinder and the float position to allow the thrower to follow the ground.If you did not have an FEL you stuck with the 3point lift.Then they offered an optional chute rotation via. an hyd. motor that took advantage of a different control valve they had started using on the FEL.These changes were also reflected in other implements when they could be used.Just my observation. ....
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kubota 3 way valve VS 4 way valve
bvance
Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 280 The Great Pacific NorthWet, Olympia, WA Pics |
2004-10-24 99175
I have a Kubota BX 2230 with FEL LA211-2. The manual says my FEL is "One Detent, Float Position, Power Beyond Circuit. A FEL LA211-1 is "One Detent, Float Position, Two Stage Bucket Dump, Power Beyond Circuit.
From reading these posts, it appears that the Two Stage Bucket Dump gives you "power down". Is that right? How much trouble/costs would it be to have my dealer modify my FEL to give me "power down"?
Does Two Stage Bucket Dump give you two-way power only to the bucket curl or also down pressure to the boom as well?
P.S. My FEL is not attached, and I'm too lazy to go attach it and try it! Thanks, Brian
....
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kubota 3 way valve VS 4 way valve
DRankin
Join Date: Jan 2000 Posts: 5116 Northern Nevada Pics |
2004-10-24 99193
Nothing on an FEL happens by gravity except the "float" setting, unless it is painted green and then it floats when you don't want it to.
My understanding is this: the two stage dump is a powered setting and just runs a bit faster in the second stage.
Kubota uses this faster, power-down setting to drop the grader blade faster. I never noticed that it made much difference when using the FEL. ....
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kubota 3 way valve VS 4 way valve
beagle
Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 1333 Michigan Pics |
2004-10-25 99211
The two stage bucket dump is the regenerative cicuit in the dump valve spool. It allows exhaust fluid to flow to the power side of the cylinder for faster dumping. The feel is pretty slight, but when you move the joystick for bucket dump, there are two different speeds the bucket will dump at. Move slightly to the right, and then full to the right, you can notice the difference.
This is the only difference in the valve. The FEL valve is still as 2-spool, 4-way valve that operates two double acting cylinders. One spool has a float position with detent, which only means that the spool will stay in the float position when the joystick is moved all the way up. Float allows fluid to flow through the spool from one side of the cylinder to the other allowing it to "Float". The FEL valve has is ported for Power Beyond, since the valve is plumbed is series with the tractor hydraulics. In other words, the hydraulic circuit of the tractor is completed through the Power Beyond Port. ....
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