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No More Parts for Yanmars -- Part II

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DennisCTB
Join Date: Nov 1998
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2003-02-25          50054

Guys I think I will need a staff of legal aids to sift thru all of this dialogue.

Thanks Mark, DavesTractor, Gregg, Doc and others for putting so much effort into this exchange.

I am going to start a new thread on this and call it No More Yanmar Parts -- Part II.

I would like each of you to put the readers digest version into the new thread, of your thoughts on the topic. We need to distill all this down so we can get to what we all agree on.

DennisCTB
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No More Parts for Yanmars -- Part II

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DavesTractor
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2003-02-25          50063

Dennis,

Thank you for trying to give this thread a fresh start, but I prefer bringing it to a friendly end. As I stated in an earlier post, I will respectively decline to go further with this subject. It started out looking like a reasonable question, but was actually bait to start a grey market bashing frenzy.

If the main authors of this thread were to re-read it all, I suspect we would all no doubt want to rebut points made by others. I certainly do, but to what end? To say it all again in a different fashion will likely bring us back to the same point.

It's your call, but that is my suggestion.

By the way, if this forum prefers not to be friendly to the grey market dealers or owners, just let us know. There are other places to go. I suspect though, that most members are actually friendly and accepting of us and we are only dealing with a vocal minority with a burr under their saddle.
....

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Grey Market Supporte
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2003-02-25          50068

Kudos to Dave for running a honest business and knowing how to get it done! I have been to his place and believe me it is very well ran, clean machines and a straightforward approach to sales and service.

I have no idea what the future of Grey Market Tractors will be, nobody does, but they are still a great value and really well built tractors. Many cross over very nicely to some domestic models.

I have had a few parts issues and was able to work through them by taking a hard part to the local machine shop and having something fabricated. I have also done some interesting fabricating myself on these tractors and have yet to run across something that could not be fixed properly. I am not talking about hack jobs here either, lets face it, if someone manufactured it in Japan or anywhere else it surely can be reproduced. Often the part could be fabricated at the machine shop for less than the cost of ordering it from Japan.

As far as safety on these machines or any other tractor for the matter, that issue belongs to the operator. If one had a yanmar 1300 and sat it side by side with a U.S. Yanmar 155, there is virtually no difference in the design and safety features, therefor the argument that grey tractors are made completely different than the domestic models is hogwash. Too many of them are direct or nearly direct crosses. A friend of mine bought a brand new Yanmar here in the good old USA in 1980. It has a PTO shield (I have never seen a grey that did not have a PTO shield) and no ROPS or seatbelt. So for those that argue the greys are less safe than domestic tractors, show me the diffenence.

Finally, if the greys stopped being imported to the USA it will not be because there is a lack of parts or they are unsafe, it will be because the BIG Domestic Tractor companies will lobby the right people so they can continue to fleece the average joe who needs to muck out his horse stall. The price differnce is just too great between the new tractors and the greys, given the features and reliability of the greys, that it must be doing some financial harm to the big companies. Instead of whining about it they should go back to their roots in business and become more competative instead of trying to monopolize the market!

I'm off my soapbox now, good luck to all and lets hope free trade will prosper. ....

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lsheaffer
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2003-02-25          50071

I have to side with Dave. A few of my own comments.

1.Many of the grey tractors met US saftey requirements when they were manufactured.

2.A ROPS for a tractor that didn't have a OEM designed one would be fairly expensive due to the testing that would be required to be OSHA approved. It doesn't matter if it is grey or domestic.

3. There is no requirement to equip used tractors with ROPS.

4.There are unscroupulous individauls & companies that turn back hour meters. Mainly the so called factory reconditioned ones. The Japanese do not put a lot of hours on a tractor. 500 -1000 hours on a 20 year old tractor is very common. When a farmer only has a couple of acres it is hard to put a lot of hours on a tractor.

5.I think there a lot more than 2 or 3 honest grey market dealers in the US. I don't care what you are in the market for there are good dealers & bad ones. To lump them all in to one category is grossly wrong & I resent the accusation that since I deal in grey market tractors that I must be a crook.

6.The main reason most people don't deal in parts for other than their own customers is that it takes alot of time for the small return. There seem to be a lot of parts price shoppers, which consume alot of time with no sales.

7. As to there being no more grey market tractors being inported , I think that is wishful thinking & a scare tactic.

8. As to the parts situation. The Yanmar decision puts Yanmar on the same playing field as the other brands. You could never order a grey market part from Mitsubishi. Thousands of them have been imported & grey parts have had to be ordered from Japan for years.

9.As to "the fact is that these tractors just weren't meant for stupid, letigious minded Americans" can very easily apply to old farm tractors. I grew up on a farm & still farm. The tractors from the 40's & 50's are a whole lot more dangerous than the grey market tractors. I don't see anyone trying to prevent stupid, letigious minded Americans from purchasing them.

There is alot more I could say, but I've wasted enough time on this topic.I feel the negative grey market posters are making some big assumptions based on a lack of knowledge about the used tractor situation & greys in particular. This will be my only post on this subject thread, so you can spread more falacies without fear of a rebutal by me. ....

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DennisCTB
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2003-02-26          50077

Dave:

TractorPoint has a long standing history as being open to Grey Market Tractors, as well as New and Used Dealers. And I would like to thank you personally for helping people on the Board since you became a TractorPoint member. Keep helping us out!

Leonard:

You have been our "outstanding Grey Market dealer" for about 5 years now. Thanks for the hundreds of timely and thoughtful comments in which you have gone out of the way to help TractorPoint members with issues they have presented here.

DennisCTB
TractorPoint

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marklugo
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2003-02-26          50082

Dave and Leornard,
Yes, there are some grey market tractors out there that may meet some of the standards. But the fact is, there are ASAE standards and OSHA requirements for things such as tow bar height 3 point lift demensions, engine noise and too many other things that you wouldn't be able to list here. By stating that most tractors you see or sell have these, you are inadvertently admitting that there are some that don't. It is these tractors that don't that will get you into trouble. As far as parts go tell me if you can still get things like cylinder liners for these old YM 1700's. There are many parts obsoleted. You compare these tractors to their contemporaries. You can still get about any part you can name for a 2600,3600 Ford,30 series JD, 84 series IH, and 135 and its Massey. This is not true with Grey market. If you want to openly discuss your parts distribution system, lets! Yanmar openly refuses to sell Grey Market parts. Unless you have figured out a way to trick Yanmar, then thats out. Ethically, should you lie to a company that doesn't wish to sell to you to get them to sell? Ok, Yanmar importers have"sources" in Japan. Many cases, importers are relying on third party parts shipments. Is it ethical to tell someone you can get him parts when you have to rely upon your "connection" 5000 miles away? What about the people that would really depend upon these machines for their lively hood when you tell them it will be six weeks before you can get them parts. Is it even ethical to go ahead and sell to sell them tractors? How about the established practice of "fixing" tractors with used parts because the others aren't available or are too expensive. Some of these conditions did not exist in the past. They exist now. What are the self professed ethical dealers going to do?
Still the tractors have the little issue of ROPS protection. Many legitimate companies such as Kubota and Deere have programs actively going to retrofit their old tractors with ROPS. They will either subsidize the cost or provide them with as little cost as possible. The Greys don't or won't due to the fact that Yanmar feels these tractors are illegitimate. If you think this is a minor issue, you didn't know anyone that was killed by a rear(and most overturns are rear!) overturn.
As to lack of knowledge, I think that I have been doing this long enough now (18 years) and have worked greys as far back as 1987. I work with and around 5 dealers that sell in excess of 200 a year of these tractors and another 20 that sell 50 or more. Their experiences are convincing enough.

As far as Yanmar being a good tractor, It is. No doubt. But the best tractor in the world is no better than its dealer who can support it with parts and technical knowledge. We haven't even begun to address the technical side, but that is what this web-site is partly about.

Fireworks are fun, and many will sell them to you and say see the pretty little sparklers. But we have seen what innocent little sparklers did to nearly 100 people... Should we not view this market with a similar analogy?
Ban all fireworks? well I am not going to say that. Ban all grey market tractors, I won't say that either. However, with the increasing number of them out there, it is only a matter of time before the market self destructs. ....

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Misenplace
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2003-02-26          50090

It really seems to me that there are several issues here trying to be molded into a single topic. From my perspective they are all seperate issues. I don't really think there should be any debate at all over who's welcome. Everyone should be. I also think we all clearly know and understand that there are good dealers and those who are not above board. There just isn't much to debate there. Many of the people who have spoke out on this topic, pro or con, are well liked and respected by others that use this forum. I don't see that changeing, and there's no reason it should. Are Yanmars good tractors ? I've never owned one. I've been very up front about that. Given the longstanding reputation that Yanmar has in the Diesel sector I am positive that they are good tractors. The base debate here was not safety or a whole host of other potential side bars. The main topic was parts availability. Given The serious nature of Current litigation, The stance of US customs and the International Trade Commission Not to mention the good folks who actually make the tractors, I see little room for speculation. I am sure there will always be parts available to some degree, How easily they will be obtained and how much they will cost is the unknown. All I can really say is for me that Yanmar did not represent a good choice for my needs. As far as safety is concerned, it will be a issue that continues to get melded with the importation ban on greys because it is the fiber that draws the attention of the powers that be. In my opinion they do represent a considerable health risk to buyers. I base that on the concept that a rough estimate has been given of 50% of all Grey market buyers are first time tractor owners. Most of theese folks are good hard working people like all of our neighbors and family. Yet the truth is that most of them don't know the south end of a tractor from the south end of a armadillo, poo from peanuts. But look we all had to start someplace. Someone above mentioned that there are a lot of other sites out there for greys. In recent weeks I spent numerous hours on those sites. Many have dealer listings. I tried to contact several dozen dealers who had pages that would pop up and say they were no longer selling greys for either ethical reasons or they could not supply there customers with parts. The most dissheartening thing I saw over and over were posts from first time buyers who had unkowingly purchased a grey and then went to a authorized dealer for parts only to get bounced out on their ear. Maybe they should have known better. But you still have to have a little empathy for the fellow who plops down 4k, that he's saved for years only to find out he's been duped. I previously said that I traveled to three states in the last month. Not ONE single dealer said now you know theese are grey market tractors, you have to get parts from me or even remotely tried to offer anything other than fluff in regards to parts, hours and all the pertinent questions that I asked. And yes, I made it very clear that I was a first time buyer. I do want to be clear here though so no one gets their rubarb rubbed the wrong way, To the best of my knowledge I never visited a dealership of anyone on this forum. There are good guys and bad but they no longer wear white or black hats. There has been a lot of attention given to ROPS and seat belts. There are other issues, 2pt hitches that have been converted to 3 pt and were never built to use implements that size. I saw several that were total hack jobs. No pto shields, no slip clutch, variable speed pto, Warning labels not present or in chineese as well as other differences that might vary from model to model. The real truth is that the folks who will have problems with theese issues are not the readers or participators of a forum like this untill after the fact. Weather you like greys or not, are pro or con, the fact is that theese tractors and the parts for them are going to stop comeing into the US in the very near future. At least as legal cargo. They were never built for the US, Never Intended for the US and the owners of the US trademarks on theese products have a legal, moral and fiduciary responsabilty to stop them from comeing into the US in the future. ....

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No More Parts for Yanmars -- Part II

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jimstractors
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2003-02-26          50091

Hats off to Dave at DavesTractors and Len Sheaffer! Keep up the good work!
Jim
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Norm2001
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2003-02-26          50092

I can't help but wonder what attracts non-Yanmar owning, Yanmar bashers to a Yanmar forum. It must be some type of mental illness. As long as I have been following Yanmars I have never heard of anyone who had to junk their tractor because of a needed part. Any Yanmar owner knows, or should know, up front, that he needs to be a mechanic, and pretty self-reliant in finding parts. Yanmar owners also don't need big brother or "do-gooders" telling them how to operate their machinery. I personally have never seen any professional carpenter that uses the blade shield that came with his tablesaw, and I'll bet that their are more people killed from falling out of windows than from tractor roll-overs.
Norm ....

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DRankin
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2003-02-26          50093

MarkLugo, your view of the grey market situation is hard to square with what we know about free markets.

Short of a legislated ban on imported used tractors, I cannot imagine the market drying up or "self destructing".

Will someone initiate legislation based on safety concerns? Maybe, but as pointed out earlier, it will take a lot of tractors that have never left U.S. soil with them.
That ain't going to happen. Not here. Not heartland. Imagine the Gummint telling you to park or destroy your grandpa's John Deere A?

Parts: The free market will deliver the parts. With multiple tens of thousands of grey tractors out there already, someone will fill in the gaps. They always do. It is just a matter of price.

The cost may be quite a bit more, but I can't imagine prices being worse than what Deere charges us now for stuff still in production.

If the free market could not deliver obsolete or hard to find parts, then we wouldn't see Studebaker's and Willy's on the road anymore. But we do, and we still see Beech Staggerwings and P-51's cruising our sky's.

As far as tractor safety, you are preaching to the choir here. There are extensive threads in the archives relating to ballast, wheel weights, tilt meters, tire pressure, slope operation and the list goes on.

And some of us have already soiled our shorts in the tractor flipping business anyway. Maybe that is why I am always telling folks to check their ballast numbers and buy those wheel weights.

If you want to compete in this arena, sharpen you pencil and tell you customers about YOUR parts and service. Apathetic dealers and hugely inflated prices are responsible for this 'grey' markets existence.








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Misenplace
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2003-02-26          50097

I guess norm is calling me a basher. Is any one who dissagrees with some one else a basher ? or a Flamer ? well, I guess we all are then, Heck I don't agree with my wife half the time. You know the only thing that bugs me is un-registered users that pop up with some really inflametory comment just to incite some further upheavel on what should really be a friendly healthy debate. And I would have to agree with mark on the price of parts and why the desire for theese units arose in the first place but in regards to availability based on a random search for a couple of fairly common parts I couldn't agree with future availability. P-51's get custom made parts at a enormous hand fabricated price. When I was looking at theese units on another site one of the dealers I was drawn to had all theese posts about what a great guy he was. He could get parts for anyone etc. etc. I had a friend who works with computers do his magic and gee whiz, you know all of those posts came from the same place. So much for intergrity. ....

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UncleE
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Posts: 2 Pennsylvania
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2003-02-26          50098

I am a Firt time Yanmar Owner. I bought my fist Yanmar Gray Market Tractor last year in March. I am very new to tractors and have never heard of Gray Markets before this purchase but I have concluded it was one of the best decisions I ever made.

My goal was a reliable used diesel tractor around 20hp with a 3pt. that I could afford. It also had to have large enough front tires that I would not get stuck in a ground hog hole while brushhogging the field. I began visiting tractor dealers in a 150 mile radius (and sometimes ever further) for about 6 months. I looked. I looked.

There was not one tractor that met my needs that was under $ 7k. In November 2002 a contact at a dealer finally called and said he found a used Kubota L185 only 40 miles from home for only $4500. I became very excited and went to see it the next day. That tractor was in horrible mechanical condition! The dealer had it running for about 45 minutes before I arrived there and the blue smoke coming out was so thick I could barely see across his storage area. The smoke was so intoxicating I could barley stand riding it. His exact words were "that is absolutely normal and that will go away after a while". The tractor had other problems too. I just could not see paying any money for that. I like Kubotas and I know there are many great Kubotas but I could not find a good one under 7K that met my goals. Knowing what I now Know I will never visit that dealer again.

Someone else called and said they found a JD 750 that was about 300 miles from home. My wife said I was nuts but I packed up and went to see it. It was in super mechanical condition and I loved it. It was only $11000. I had to walk. I could not swing it at the time. I asked why there was a Yanmer engine in that JD tractor and thats where it all started.

I spent about another 3 months researching Yanmars and learned about Gray Market tractors. I found several dealers within 100 miles of home. First I assessed their personal values and credibility. After determining who I wanted to work with then and only then did I view his tractors. I ended up purchasing a 4wd, 20hp, diesel Yanmar with a 3pt. and a 54" inch tiller for $4600!! !

I have needed a few small obscure pieces and the dealer has been able to get every single one! It has performed beyond my expectations. Since the tractor purchase I have bought a 4' brushhog, 5' disc, and 4' blade. I have come to enjoy "seat time" as the veterans say.

I do wish it had a ROPS or roll bar but it does not and I respect that every single time I start it up. Just like I respect my old chain saws every time I start them.

In my opinion the Gray dealer I chose to buy from is in the business because he realizes there is a considerable market for well working, efficient, reliable used tractors that are reasonably priced. He saw a market need that was not being satified. He did some research, put some effort and $$$ at risk and has been rewarded with making the right decision.

I don't even care if his margins are astronomical! He has been a super person to work with, he saved me alot of money, I have a great product and I will have it for a long time.

If you think Gray market tractors are a poor value then you must be so tight your A$$ squeaks when you walk.

Are you jealous of people who make good money? Everyone has a lifetime to meet their financial goals or retire broke. You are where you are at today because of decisions you made in the past. You made your bed, not anyone else. Although I don't want to believe it, I can't afford a $10k tractor because of my own decions in the past and because of my financial goals in the future.

I resent being labeled as not know the a$$ of a tractor from the A$$ of some animal. I would not follow any person who talked about people with such ignorance.

I am going to puchase an additional bigger tractor this year. We are buying 12 more recreational acres. I was considering one of the JD 4200 series but I am not sure now. I do not want to have a tractor that emulates ignorant people. ....

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marklugo
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2003-02-26          50099

This should be my last post on this thread unless something is specifically addressed to me.

Mark H.
I understand free enterprise and how it works. Yes even as we speak, there are some people supplying a limited amount of after market parts. The problem is unique though. These tractors have so many serial number breaks and minor differences that affect the compatibility of parts that any aftermarket supplier would have an incomprehensible job of gathering information and serial numbers and records to ensure compatibility that it is nearly impossible for the likes of Yanmar, Mitsubishi, Shibaura and others to keep up with themselves. Yes this happens in the American Market, but companies throw some of these aftermarket suppiers bones by supplying extensive technical information.
Don't forget, they made over 1 million 8n's. That is sufficient market to keep supplying parts for years. The popular models then are the ones now because of the availability of aftermarket parts. The unpopular ones are sitting ophaned in many farmers barns. The few unpopular antiques that ressurrect are people of extraodinary nature and resources. 10's of 1000's are not sufficient to regain the capital cost of R&D especially when there is so many variations of the same basic product.
These tractors will suffer the same fate as many other tractors that have had poor distribution systems such as Leyland. Sure some parts may always be available, but at what $? People only able to spend 4000 dollars to purchase a tractor, can ill afford to pay the high cost of repair. Yes, I have seen many grey market tractors junked and sitting idle because of difficulties in parts.

As for Yanmar Bashing, there are P.C. thought Nazis who won't allow any discord or other opinions to be registered. I have offered sound advice on other topics. I call it the way I see it. Healthy disagreement built this country. Don't take your ball and go home if you don't like the texture of the sand in the sandbox.

To those of you who have bought Yanmar and other Greys:
Congratulations on the purchase and ownership of a fine tractor. It will do the job cheaply and well. However, be aware of frustrations encountered with the fact that Yanmar, Kubota and others do not support their existence in the U.S. because of saftey, and yes, economic issues.
Do not expect help from the main line tractor companies just because the tractor looks similar and is made by the same company that made yours for the same reasons already mentioned. Do not get mad, feel betrayed, shout or stamp your feet. Calmly search boards like this and other magazines and publications for parts and technical advice.
Be prepared to spend as much as you paid for the tractor on any major repair. Also be prepared for significant investment in minor parts as well. Do not generally look for technical help from many selling dealers. Good luck and prosperity.
....

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Misenplace
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2003-02-26          50100

Uncle, let me get this straight in my twisted little brain. You joined the forum today, you have 1 post on one thread and gosh look where you landed :) I guess I'll just take my marbles and go play with all the other kiddies in the corner, you know, the ones with the dunce caps on. You'd need one to believe that post. Why is it if the stance is so credible it is necessary to fabricate a scenario ? The point has been beaten to death, twice. That's all I have to say as this has once again simply digressed to hogwash. ....

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UncleE
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2003-02-26          50109

DocsKnotIn,

That is a 100% true story. I expected you to respond that way. I visited 2 Kubota dealers in South Western PA about every month for 5 months. One of them found the L185. I still have both their busines cards. I actually wanted a Kubota from Day 1 but just could not find a reasonable one.

I also visited J&D lawn and tractor in Western PA. No luck at all.

There are more tractor dealers in Butler county because there is more farming. I made a trip to Ritenour in Butler, Critchlow in Allison Park, and Smardt in Prospect almost monthly. No luck. I just bought a top link and Weights from Ritenour. They are Great people.

I visited Walters Tractor Service in the Harrisburg area. He had some reasonable used tractors but both had lots of hours and of the two I looked at one had a rebuilt engine and the other a rebuilt hydro. I was very very close to buying a Ford 1220 with a rebuilt hydro. He wanted $6500 fall of 2001.

I visited the Reading Kubota dealer for about the same amount time. I actually liked their people very much. They just have tractors I could not afford. Also visited Robert Little in Zieglerville. Very nice JD dealer with good people. Business took me in those directions. Robert Little had the 750. (I wish to correct an error. Looking back I my notes, Robert Little had an 850 with a 5' hog for $11K+. He had a 750 but I did not write down a price because I was told its only 18hp. I am not an tractor expert or veteran) I think he has 750 there now but its $9000 with a loader. I think,...its been a couple months since the visit. That is the best deal I have seen in a long time but I don't need a loader.

Also visited Lawn Care Equipment in Martindale,...but only visited him twice.

Why don't you call them and ask how many used 4wd, 20hp diesel tractors with a tiller they have or can get you for under $5K? How about $6K. IF they do I bet its a Gray market. That is IF they have one.

I am a member on other boards and I think I am a member here but I can't remember my login in or passwords because I don't visit that often. So I just made a new one.

I ended up getting the Gray tractor from MTS tractors in Minerva OH. The whole story is true. The numbers are very close if not right on the spot. Refering to me as a dunce is also not appreciated but expected.
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bruce1966us
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2003-02-26          50133

Uncle E,

Please don't be so hard on ole Doc. Remember he has already admitted that he has a twisted LITTLE brain and after reading most of his posts I agree. ha! ha!

Have a nice evening guys!
Bruce Laten
(931) 455-6999 ....

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Misenplace
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2003-02-26          50137

There was never a finer fellow than he, who so blatently tried to hawk his wares for FREE!! ....

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bruce1966us
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2003-02-26          50139

A poet and tractor expert. How amusing! Now surely you can come back with one of the long posts Flaming me for a dozen different things?! Remember this is only my 4th post, so maybe that will give you something to start with! This is my last post on the subject but anyone can feel free to call or email me. I just simply DO NOT want to subject the other members to my biased opinion.

Night Night!
Bruce ....

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Misenplace
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2003-02-26          50140

Geez, whats that little # in the left box, no your other left. There ya go. 3 posts 2 days. 2 nasty. ....

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Peters
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2003-02-26          50152

It seem not long ago we had Kubota do a similar thing. From the prices that I have seen on the grey Yanmars I guess I would be seriously looking at a new Korean before I would spend nearly the same money on a used grey tractor.
Have I owned a Yanmar, yes and no, I had an early JD which was a Yanmar with a paint job. From what I could tell there was very little difference between those and the 20 year old greys I have looked at. It had no ROP either.
The EPA may limit the importation of grey tractors due to the fact that they are tightening the emmission controls on diesel. A lot of diesels do not now meet emmissions and you see manufactures using other peoples power plants in different sized tractors. To date they have not limited the importation of antique cars but as the 25 year date nears the point where emmissions were phased in there will likely be a difference. Yanmar may have more knowledge of this and be trying to limits its problem.
I don't think that lack of a dealer network is necessarily a problem, you just need to sell to a different clients. I was on a site the other day of an American small articulated tractor. They have no dealer at all, but provide technical staff to train new owners and walk them through repairs. It is not right or wrong just a different approach to marketing.
To date I have owned 4 tractors and have never used a dealer on any repair other than to order parts. Today I could have just as well got them off the internet rather than driving all over the country.
But I am not sure I am normal today.
....

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yanmarman
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2003-02-27          50189

I just purchased a YM1500 Yanmar grey market tractor in great condition for $2500.00. I am not worred about getting parts. If it breaks down I will junk it and go buy another one. ....

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Pop
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2003-03-03          50457

Hey,
Wait just a minute! I owned a 9N Ford, built and used in the US since the Depression! How is a Yanmar more dangerous than it is?

I have a John Deere Dealer within 2 miles of my house. Lenard (Shelfer, the Yanmar man)is, WAY off up in Yankee land. I have spent several hundred thousand dollars (from work) with the local John Deere dealer. ZERO with Lenard.

Please explain why my local dealer (Jones Tractor, Tallahasse Fl) will not give me the TIME OF DAY (and yes, I currently own a John Deere) and Lenard has and WILL answer my questions, email me, give me parts numbers, prices and advice. When I upgrade, IT WILL BE with a Yanmar not a JOHN DEERE!!! Service is first and John Deere is missing the boat, Lenard isn't!

Grey tractor are not dangerous, stupid people are. Stupid people can buy any tractor with or without a ROPS. If they get a newer model with a ROPS and don't wear a seat belt they can and will die. You can not legislate common sense! Stop trying.

Don Poindexter ....

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Tractor Ern.
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2003-03-03          50459

Old saying:
Ignorance can be cured
but
Stupid is for ever !!
------------------------------------------------------
I dont know what we would do without the Sheaffer man around.
He has done more for Yanmar than anyone I know.
And helped me out of quite a few jams.
Ern. ....

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Misenplace
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2003-03-04          50465

yamar man, EXACTLY !! now what was that wise and witty saying ? Stupid is as stupid does ! I can only assume you might be referring (stupid) to the growing number of spouses who have brought forth wrongfull death suits and other litigation because their spouse were stand up guys, real men, responsible men, although they obviously couldn't read " Don't stick your fingers in here " written in chineese. It truely continues to amaze me, although it probably should not, That new posters contineually pot up in a fruitless effort to make a healthy debate some sort of personal slam fest. It is, was and never will be so UNLESS, you continue to personally name dealers, their location, and then shamelessly plug another. Now that is a flameing basher !! Here is my final take on this whole strand...................... IS So !....Is Not!......IS SO ! ......IS NOT!! ..SO !!!...NOT!!!! So!NOT!!!!.......MOM! ....

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tractor Ern.
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2003-03-04          50490

DocsKnotInn
What Yanmar do you own ,is it 4x4 is it a gray or american model?
Thanks Ern.
....

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DRankin
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2003-03-04          50493

I think he has a new green Yanmar with yellow wheels and safety decals written in English. ....

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Billy
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2003-03-04          50495

I don't want to get into this arguement but I would like to add something. It has nothing to do with Yanmar or any other brand of tractor.

Let's say you have a landscaping business. Some of your tractors aren't equiped with ROPS or other safety devices. One of your employees rolls it and gets seriously hurt or killed on this tractor. You best hold on to your ass cause someone is gonna drag it through court.

I might add, you will lose.

Billy ....

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Misenplace
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2003-03-04          50498

Once again to those who are sooooo short sighted that they can't remember that the topic is not MY tractor, or what I like, or decals....PLEASE !! The topic is parts. Some people here seem to like to ride the fence, on day for, the next against...hmmm. Either way, at least I have enough left nut to show up and put up, not hide bihind some temporary user id, LOL. Does that mentality come with a grey ? Hey mark does that little orange bug have english stickers on it ?? That's NOT REALLY the conversation is it ? It's not REALLY any of my buisiness what your tractor has, is it ? Ditto. I think NO Matter what the topic it shows incredibly poor form and integrity to show up hideing behind moms skirt and bash specific dealers by name and location. No matter where your loyalties lye. HOW many times is it necessary to say Yanmar is a good product ? Well, slap me and call me silly that's not the topic either is it ? There are a select few here who have chimed in regularly that don't seem to even know what a grey is. There is a fellow out there some where selling drugs. But it IS legal because they are new synthetic derivitives. There NOT illigel because there not on the books yet. I guess it's ok by comparison to make a few bucks that way. I mean really, who needs big brother breathing down our backs ? Do we need to be told what is right and wrong or shall we govern our selves ? There is a difference between anarchy and freedom. Freedom of choice does NOT mean that we sit on our duffs and let those with the moral fiber of something left on the side of the road do as they please, to make a quick buck and hide in the "GREY" zone. ....

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Tractor Ern.
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2003-03-04          50499

DocsKnotInn
WHAT TYPE OF YANMAR DO YOU OWN?
Do you have one or not

Yes Or NO ??

Ern. ....

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DRankin
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2003-03-04          50501

Whoa there Hoss. Guess you couldn't see my tongue in my cheek.
I am not playing both sides of the fence, just joking a little.
I have said, and will continue to say, I believe in a free market and "buyer beware".
You are right, it is about PARTS. That is the title.

I agree there are liability issues and anybody who wants to stick his foot in that trap to save a few bucks is responsible for the consequences.

Tractors, guns, shop tools, chain saws, lawn mowers, '52 jeeps and kitchen knives can all hurt you if you stupidly misuse them. I just don't think they should be legislated out of existence based on that potential.

Both of my tractors have parts available for them because I value that aspect of ownership. Both have a sh--load of safety decals pasted everywhere printed in english, but not in spanish, french or chinese. So I guess those North Americans ethnic groups could sue if they screw up using Orange and Green tractors.



....

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Misenplace
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2003-03-04          50502

Mark, my apolagies, no I can not see your tongue in cheek. It is often easy to miss read the tone of a written corespondence. The Only thing that gets me hot under the collar is name dropping and bashing someone who is not presant to defend themself. That violates my sense of fair play and crosses the bounds of common decency. Ern, just as mark said, My YANMAR is green and yellow. No One any where in my book can take anything away from a company with such a long standing reputation as YANMAR. BUT, that has little to do with grey market tractors or parts availability. I am NOT knocking any one that owns one. I just feel that there is a noteable element out there feeding on new zero experience buyers with little concern to anything other than profit. ....

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Tractor Ern.
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2003-03-04          50503

DocsKnotInn
WHAT TYPE OF YANMAR DO YOU OWN?
Do you have one or not

Yes Or NO ??

Ern ....

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Misenplace
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2003-03-04          50506

? is it just me ?? :) ....

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DRankin
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2003-03-04          50512

Doc. Must be your week to wear the "kick me" sign.

I'll try to comport myself in a more serious vein in the future.

Ern. My misspent humor was intended to convey that both Doc and I have tractors manufactured by Yanmar and sold under the John Deere name.

Both of us shopped the grey market before buying new, though I suspect Doc looked a little harder at it than I did. I liked the prices but didn't like the fact that there is not a central clearing house where parts could be had. When it comes time to fix or service a tractor I want to put my money on the counter and get what I need.

I am also blessed with sufficient finances to be able to afford to do that and I am acutely aware not everyone can afford a new tractor.

I will say that had I bought a grey, I would have devised some sort of rollover protection for it, along with a seatbelt. I have lived through one serious tractor mishap and have no intention of placing myself at risk again.

I think grey owners should at least look at what Deere has done on the X500 series. While it is not a true roll bar it would offer some protection and would be cheap and easy to fabricate.
....

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tractor Ern
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2003-03-04          50521

doksnotinn
? is it just me ?? :)
dok
It is quite obvious dok that you have made yourself an
an expert on something that you do not own. (a yanmar tractor)
you have proceded to anger everyone you correspond with on this thread worse than the clintons!
I feel awful sorry for those people that have to put up
with you , and your mouth around,
I wont waste my time,if you wont answer the question.
In my part of town we have names for people like you
they are called EDUCATED IDIOTS.
Im sorry I gave you the time of day sucker

....

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Misenplace
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2003-03-04          50523

LOL, would SOMEONE please let that dok out of the barn, I can't get any sleep with all this quacking !! and Mark, for Gods sake PLEASEEEEEE take this dog gone sign back :) ....

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DRankin
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2003-03-04          50526

Nope. Ain't gonna do it. It's your turn duc,(?) so buck up, or what ever they say on your side of town.

Besides, I am enjoying the break. I don't even want it back next week. I reckon it will be MarkLugo's turn by then.... , Hey! He started this fandango.

I may never forgive him.

Did you get your 2210 yet? How are the turfs performing? ....

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Misenplace
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2003-03-05          50540

PAGEING MARK LUGO, MARK LUGO TO THE SERVICE DESK PLEASE: YOUR SIGN IS READY !! LOL I guess I'm stuck in it untill someone else steps in, hey I'm not a TP virgin anymore LOL. Yes I did get the 2210 yesterday, and just in time as we got 8" of snow last light. I played with it a little and I was suprised that on a large garden tractor like this Vs. A larger compact like the 4610 that the loader is a little more difficult to use. It doesn't take much more than a little move of the joy stick to get that front end off the ground. I suspect that I will need chains for the tires but one thing at a time, PS. I really am a fan of orange, someday they will open a responsible dealership in my area or in a couple of years the new guy around the corner with have a little more experience and a service bay. To me it is amuseing that I was dead set against JD when I started shopping. For now at least I am pleased as punch just to own a tractor, any tractor. Now if I can just convince the boss that I "NEED" that custom aluminum trailer...... ....

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DRankin
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2003-03-05          50546

The thing to remember about tractors and chains is:

It is not a car.

Sounds stupid but, with cars and trucks we drive in/on the snow and use the chains for traction. With a tractor we are, at least in theory, driving on a freshly cleared chunk of road and pushing the snow ahead of us.

If chains are needed at all, smaller/lighter links or cables might be more useful.

....

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Misenplace
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2003-03-05          50549

No chains are necessary. The Turfs work A-Ok. This was as big of a storm as we get once a year and it was actually fun to clean the drive. I did have a little traction problem on glare ice but I doubt any tire would do better there. ....

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Smahler
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2003-03-06          50647

This has been terribly fun reading, and I will throw my own bit in. I currently own a MF made by Hinomoto. Previously an old Kubota. Both present challenges when it comes to buying parts. But if you think this grey market issue is about parts, then what about the brand new -US legal - ROPS touting CHINESE tractors sold by NorTrac? Some poor working bloke is going to slap down his money for one of these beauties and at 100hrs need some parts. Good luck!

Heck I have a friend with an '89 Kubota that needed to wait 2 months to find a differential part, in the middle of the spring planting season.

So difficulties with parts is not a grey market-only problem. It is a function of overall supply. There are not millions Yanmars out there in the US, so parts are tricky. Just like Zetor, DF, Long, Same, Jinma, Nortrac, etc.

When you buy a used grey market tractor you are paying less money and accepting more risk, as with any used purchase.

As for the comment that someone who can only afford $4,000 shouldnt be buying tractors, go climb a tree. Not everyone wants to make a tractor payment :) ....

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Misenplace
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2003-03-06          50650

And ad to that the further complication in some areas like greater Detroit. Here there are several dealers who watch the canadian exchange rate. when it favors them they run over the border and buy a Canadian model with all the modern safety features, really the exact tractor as a us model. They bring them back and sell them as new to un suspecting buyers who later on find out they really don't have any warranty. Some times the selling dealer honors the warranty but you best hold on to your britches if you think you can get that in writeing. It's not so bad when you see a string of new JD's at a Massey dealer but when you get the masseys with the masseys or any other brand..... ....

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larry
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2003-03-06          50655

Hey Doc:
You should have came over the border your self & bought a tractor.The warranty works that way & you save a bundle.
People are doing daily. ....

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Misenplace
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2003-03-06          50656

You mean the warranty works if I load it back up and take it through customs back to Canada for warranty service. Although I certainly understand that Could be a great buy and on the right day it would enough to say to heck with the warranty. For any one interested in Ontario at all border crossings there is a government currency exchange. You can buy a membership card for $5.00 that gives you the same exchange rate as a $10,000 exchange even if you are only changeing a few bucks. If I had more experience I would have considered this. In a post 9-11 world going over the bridge through customs seems like a challenge to me. ....

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Shawn K.
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2003-03-07          50708

Wow.....it's been a couple months since I looked on this forum. It looks like the first post on this thread started out innocently enough and turned into a 2 part hollerin match. Let me just throw in my 2 cents worth. When I bought my Yanmar it was after about a month's worth of research on the internet (looking at dealers/ and sites like this one). I knew about the parts "difficulty" going in and the fact that it didn't have the modern "safety" features. I feel like anyone buying anything should be smart enough to do the same thing. So to these people on here howling about how poor first time buyers are getting fleeced by gray market dealers- I say IF they are it's they're own fault. As far as the parts thing-as long as I can get filters and tires (both of which are READILY available) then I'm happy. If I get 5 years out of it and something major happens that I feel is too costly to fix,I'll junk it and get another one. At this price range (3000-4000 dollars) I'm not looking to retire with the thing- it's like buying a used car- you don't expect a 3000 dollar car to last forever either do you? As for the safety stuff it'd be nice to have I guess but since I don't have it I'm just that much more careful on my tractor- I suspect a lot of people don't use that seatbelt all the time which makes ROPS nothing more than an item to hang a canopy on anyway. We're talking about farm equipment here- the most effective safety equipment you can have is respect for machinery. You could put some dimwit in full body padding on an ROPS tractor and he could still manage to get himself killed on it. Anyway obviously to me the gray markets seemed like a good deal in spite of the issues. AND THERE ARE THOUSANDS MORE LIKE ME. See I think a lot of the bashing going on has to due with domestic dealers who see a lot of business slipping away because their stuff IS overpriced- if John Deere or the like would come out with a basic 25-30hp tractor for $7000 they'd have people lined up around the block! (And don't tell me that they can't because some of that stuff has been in production for years the tooling has to have been long since paid for yet they keep upping the prices.) I also think some of it is coming from owners of this overpriced equipment who desperatly want to believe that they got a hugely better tractor for their money (which they didn't- better maybe, but enough to offset the many thousands in price- NO WAY). That's not to bash owners of domestic tractors at all- that's bashing the domestic manufacturers/dealers who are charging too much money for their products and then want to point fingers at people offering an alternative. ....

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Misenplace
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2003-03-07          50709

What you so to some extent may be true. BUT, a fair share of the bashing going on is being done by grey dealers who try to use forums like this for the purpose of self promotion under the guise of new or unregistered users. I am sure there are thousands like you, yet there are millions of domestic owners. I myself dont see buying a tractor for 4k useing it for 3-5 years then junking it as a cost effective option. Surely there are those who do. I don't think the issue with parts is NEARLY the issue as profits for theese companys. BUT, that is their right and responsability to stock holders. Safety is the catalist that is being used to end their importation. I don't think you will get any argument that domestic manufacturs could make a better product at a lower price and that they are protecting their market share by keeping the status quo. The same is true of auto comanys etc. One thing is for certain we all have a valid opinion and the next few years will tell the story for sure. ....

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Shawn K.
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2003-03-08          50745

Your're right it probably wouldn't be cost effective but it would be an option if say it was gonna cost $3000 to rebuild an engine because parts were so scarce and you only paid $3000 for the thing in the first place- it might make more sense to look for a new hoss to ride because you'd never get near what you've got in it if you wanted to sell it. I was being a little "flip" about the 5 year thing anyway- from what I've read at least in Yanmar's case these things are so well built that no one is sure how long they can last but most seem to think 4000-5000 hours if not more (when properly taken care of). So I may get sick of it (or just plain old) before it wears out. On the other hand it could tear up in 5 years (or tomorrow)- that's a chance you'd take on any used tractor and at least I don't have a king's ransom in the thing (I've also still got my 50 year old Farmall-I can always get parts for it-heh heh!) . You may be right about these gray market dealers trying to make themselves look good- the one I dealt with was pretty honest- he didn't make any claims about the hours and he took me through their shops to see them being worked on before they're put on the lot. But a person shouldn't go into a dealer expecting to be treated right- YOU HAVE TO COVER YOUR OWN BUTT-do your homework and ask questions. If you don't and you get stuck with a piece of junk it's at least half your fault. As for the safety factor being the thing that shuts down the gray market- I hope that doesn't end up being the case. I'd much rather see the domestics win by offering a competitive product (the affordable basic tractor I was talking about last time) than to see them win by hiding behind the "safety curtain". ....

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