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Bent Front End Loader From Bucket Hooks

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pawhill
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 9 oklahoma
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2004-01-18          74432

i have a jd790 with 419fel and my son welded hooks on the top of the fel. we placed one in line with the arms on each
side. we have bent both sides. my friend at the dealer said we should have re-inforced the top. should we put a pipe under the lip of the fel or cut off the hooks and put angle iron on top of the fel then replace the hooks? which way is best? thanks.


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gauthier
Join Date: Jun 1999
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2004-01-18          74435

Well the good news is your son can make a solid weld. I'm not sure exactlly how you mean fixing it but welding something round,like the side of a round pipe,to something flat,is not maybe the best way,angle all the way across,would probably be best. Richard ....

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TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley
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2004-01-19          74441

Somewhere in the archives is a description of how it was done--with angle iron I think. There even may be pictures.

I don't need my loader for heavy lifting since I got a 3ph forklift. Before the forklift I used to run chain through the support pipe between the arms. That also gives the loader a bit more capacity since the load is further back on the arms. The downside is that the load also is closer to the tractor and it won't work for wide loads. Long loads have to be secured from two points to keep it from swinging and bashing into the tractor. Due to limitations of the pipe idea I'd probably reinforce my bucket and install hooks if I didn't have the forklift. ....

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plots1
Join Date: Jul 2003
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2004-01-19          74448

I welded a piece of 3/16 angle iron across the top of my 419 loader,really made it strong. I bent my top lip of bucket by moving huge brush piles along my creek dozer style. after straighting and welding in angle, haven't had a problem since. also have moved heavy loads with loader hooks with no bending or flexing. I think it's a must for doing that type of work with your bucket.
....

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F350Lawman
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 411 Goshen, NY
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2004-01-19          74453

I also have the bucket hooks welded inline with the arms by the dealer but have had no problems. Do you guys have the 61" HD buckets? I have yanked hard too the point of almost tipping the tractor without a bend. At first I worried, should I start again? :) ....

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plots1
Join Date: Jul 2003
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2004-01-19          74455

Mine is the HD 61 inch, I think I was just overworking it when I bent mine. bend was minor, but now there no worry of bending any more. I tend to work my tractor harder than most would. but the little deere just keeps on going strong! ....

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DRankin
Join Date: Jan 2000
Posts: 5116 Northern Nevada
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2004-01-19          74456

On my first 410 loader bucket I put the angle inside the bucket where it wouldn't show.

I got a piece of 3/16 or 1/4 angle that was as wide as the flat on the top of the bucket and mounted it with grade 5, half inch bolts about every 6 or 8 inches.

Then I drilled through the whole thing to mount hooks.

Another thing I am trying on my newest loader is to mount forged eye bolts to the top of the bucket and put the hooks on the eye bolts. Under really heavy loads the eye bolts will swivel to align themselves with the load forces.

My newest bucket is shown in my pics, #2, #3 and #4. ....

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bigpete
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 117 Delaware
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2004-01-19          74500

Hi, Pawhill. Lots of good ways to do this, as others have mentioned. Pictures 5, 6, and 7 in my profile show how my dealer's top welder did the hooks for my smaller 210 bucket. Those pics were taken on delivery day, so they are no quite that shiny. I'm having the same guy do the 53" bucket coming in with my 4110. I'm also having him just add a third reinforcement plate in the center even though I'm only putting two grab hooks on the bucket at the ends where the loader arm brackets are. That way if I ever add any other hooks or contraptions, the beef is built in. Pete ....

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DRankin
Join Date: Jan 2000
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2004-01-19          74512

That certainly looks like it would work just fine. I gotta learn to weld. ....

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bigpete
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 117 Delaware
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2004-01-20          74529

I was impressed with this shop tech's ingenuity. Before I even paid the $50 materials and labor invoice for the hooks, I bought him and the rest of the shop guys a 12-pack for the good work. Since I have no welding skills or equipment of my own, I want to stay on the good side of anyone with skill and talent in this area. Who knows what I'm going to bust up or need modified. Pete ....

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itsgottobegreen
Join Date: Oct 2003
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2004-01-20          74540

The golf course i used to work at had a 1070 with a piece of [ channel weld onto the bucket with three hooks welded to it. It was really strong, since i used it to pull a mower of out the lake.
Bigpete i think i am going to do my bucket like yours. That looks ten time better then anything i have seen. I also am going to weld 1/4 thick strengthing pieces to the front of the left and right side of the bucket. I have seen so many sides that were bent. I also am going to weld strenghting stripe to the under side of the bucket. I get to thing soon as my new welder comes in. ....

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Abbeywoods
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 110 New England
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2004-01-20          74566

Pawhill, I'm dense sometimes, help me understand. When you say the fel, do you mean the bucket of the fel? If so, a backer plate to reinforce the hook would be a good idea. I don't weld my top hooks on because the process can anneal an already marginal strength (read thin) sheet metal. I use bolt on hooks, with a backer plate on the other side of the mounting surface. A sandwich if you will: hook, bucket, and backer, all bolted together with grade 8 bolts. For very heavy lifts, I do weld two gusseted brackets on bucket center, just above the bucket's heel. Each bracket spaced wide enough to accept my chain between them. The brackets have a through hole and are made from high tensile steel, not mild steel. To connect the chain, I pass a hitch pin through the holes and chain link (or hook), then safety pin it to keep it from slipping out. This way I can lift at my loader's limit with less danger of torquing the arms out of alignment. ....

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gauthier
Join Date: Jun 1999
Posts: 148
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2004-01-20          74573

When you said the weld will make the metal softer,had to chim in,it won't make the metal softer to weld on it,period,the way some people "weld" may make it appear softer,I.E.,bad weld. Although it depends on many things,most people will tell you its just the other way around,welding will make the metal harder"more brittle",they in most cases would be wrong to. Richard ....

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ScooterMagee
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 201 Nebraska
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2004-01-20          74578

I guess, I’m a little confused also. It has always been my understanding the heat affected zone (HAZ) of a weld is always the weakest area, due to the annealing affects of the welding heat? ....

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gauthier
Join Date: Jun 1999
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2004-01-20          74579

Annealing is a heat treating process,where you slow cool the metal,this is done to make metal less brittle,relieve stresses,remove gases etc. You do not anneal when you weld,thus you do not make the metal softer. On plain old carbon steel,you do not even make it harder,some steels require you to preheat and slow cool in order to prevent cracking and hardening,johndeere loader bucket steel is not one of them. I don't have my credentals on the profile page,but I can tell you I got him beat when it comes to this. What do ya say now, Richard [was told by mark that all my profile page said was that I drink beer,and abbys said he was an engineer,I later put what I do on my profile] ....

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gauthier
Join Date: Jun 1999
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2004-01-20          74582

Well you do know what H.a.z. means,have used that a lot myself. Again you got to know what the diffinition of the word annealing is,there is a certain amount of grain change in the H.A.Z.,but in plain ole carbon steel,don't worry about it. The quality of the weld is the thing,too many people get them a little m.i.g. machine,start trying to weld,get cold lap,lack of fusion,etc. Then they think its the metal that made their weld weak. Richard ....

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grinder
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 677 central Maine
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2004-01-20          74586

Plots1
That is one fine looking piece of property you have! ....

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bigpete
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 117 Delaware
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2004-01-20          74595

Well, I don't know much about all this stuff, but I trust all you folks and the technician that has done my bucket welding. I'm the kind of guy who hates not knowing about such things, so I did a little reading. Well...I still don't know enough to debate even the first question, so I'll just post a few links to what appear to be a few informative articles. Pete ....


Link:   Welding Effect on Strengthened Steel

 
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bigpete
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 117 Delaware
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2004-01-20          74596

Here's a link to an article discussing steel types and characteristics ....


Link:   Carbon Content, Steel Classifications, and Alloy Steel

 
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gauthier
Join Date: Jun 1999
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2004-01-20          74598

Pete,good stuff. I believe the loader bucket is made of mild steel,not cold worked work hardened steel,now if it was a hardened steel,it still is perfectly acceptable to weld,you just got to weld it the right way,preheat,maybe postheat,correct filler to match material,and m.i.g. might be out,stick on a job like this would be the way,would have to check into it more,figure out what grade steel it was in order to know the correct procedure.But even on mild steel you need to weld it to the proper procedure,and you got to know how to weld,its just on mild steel alot of the above steps can be eliminated,you just got to know which ones can be. Richard ....

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plots1
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2004-01-20          74605

Well thanks for the complement Grinder. Me and my little tractor been working hard to make it look like something. ....

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Abbeywoods
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 110 New England
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2004-01-21          74609

I stand by my post. The heat affected zone will contain annealed material (as well as embrittlement). The word 'anneal' is used by engineers, despite what you may think of my credentials, Richard, in situations other than the heat treat and age process. It means what it means, soft. You may think you know what you know, and that is fine with me.

....

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Abbeywoods
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Posts: 110 New England
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2004-01-21          74614

Sometimes I'm a bit grumpy, so I applogize for that. Mr. Gauthier is correct in everything about the prep and application of the welding process for this purpose (hooks on a bucket). Although the HAZ contains various portions of transformation, if done properly it makes little difference to the issue of strength. The cruxt of the matter is that in thin material, competent welding is paramount for safety. A competent welder can certainly make a good weld in the thin materials manufacturers use for today's compact fel buckets, an amature may have dangerously poor results. It is my belief that if you aren't really good at the process, a mechanical fastener approach like I suggested would be easier to use, and safer, than a poor weld job. By the way, I like the photos of the gusseted hooks. That is a first class modification. ....

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Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999
Posts: 7249 Toronto Area, Ontario, Canada
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2004-01-21          74620

This is NOT MEANT as a slur to anyone here, but something Mark said I just couldn't leave alone, it's killing me...

Mark, I know what you mean about the beer drinking, it made my brother-in-law an EXPERT on every subject under the sun...

Heck, it even makes him nearly believable sometimes.....


ROFLMAO ....

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gauthier
Join Date: Jun 1999
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2004-01-21          74626

Abby,wasn't trying to insult you personaly. You obviously know some stuff about this,so don't take my correction personally,I am a professional in this area also,and we all make mistakes.

Heat treatment terms are often used interchangeably,but that does not mean they should be,stess reliefing,annealing,tempering etc. all mean to do something different,hell I even get them mixed up and I'm not even an engineer.

Its just the way the word anneal was used in your wording that when I read it made me want to say something. We both know what anneal means,and the only way it could apply to the weld or H.A.Z,[and that would be a stretch],would be if you had a lot of preheat on it and then kept it above the critical temp,of around 1600 degrees,[somehow],and then slow cooled it,very slow cooled.

You hit the nail on the head when you said the ability to make a good weld,and then making that weld,is the most important part. It always has been the case.

Please feel free to correct me if I need it in any comments I might make in the future concerning this topic, I believe if your right and I'm wrong about something in the future I'll take it as good as you did,and I do make mistakes,but when I do,I try to look at it as a learning experience,because I know that I never did know every thing about anything. Richard ....

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yooperpete
Join Date: Jan 2004
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2004-01-21          74628

Hey, I'm just here having fun listening to you guys! I'm a mechanical engineer and got my degree in 1974 (BSME), so be careful about general negative comments about engineers. The term "Engineer" is the most widely abused profession with so many claiming to be one that aren't. There are laws against pretending to be a doctor but anybody can be an engineer. You don't need to be an engineer to weld. Most engineers don't weld, they have someone do it for them.

I joined this board to be helpful to others and don't need much help. I'm in my mid 50's, grew up on a farm, been driving tractors since I was about 8. I was taught common sense from an early age and started welding at about 10 when the spring tooth drag broke. I'm not here to argue about welding, annealing, grain transformation, stress, strain, etc. but can add to the discussion if you like. I do like to drink beer but not while shooting. I'm an NRA member and avid shooter with CCW permit.

One thing I could use everyones help on, is to answer one question. Why does beer get flat so fast when you are out drinking in cold weather? ....

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gauthier
Join Date: Jun 1999
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2004-01-21          74629

BR, that is an interesting question about the beer,I got to tell you though that I have never noticed it,mine don't get that chance generally,so thats probably why. Now there is a reason that engineers are picked on by us not engineers,but I can't tell you because the organization for picking on engineers,[which I belong to],would kick me out. Richard ....

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Abbeywoods
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 110 New England
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2004-01-21          74630

No problem, I deserve a poke now and then, and right as rain, there are lots of engineers. Some phony, some real, and then there are real real engineers. I work in one of the broadest engineering fields, aerospace, where there are almost too many disciplines to count. My first degree was in the visual arts, my second in science, and my niche is tool engineering (and it is a bit of everything thrown together). One of my talented colleagues never saw the inside of a university until he was paid to lecture there. Degrees are just one measure of one's mind, what you do with it tells the rest. That's my final word on the subject. ....

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Blueman
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 243 Washington, PA
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2004-01-21          74632

I've enjoyed reading this post more than most! And I've never welded a damn thing...in fact, I'm still looking for someone to show me how to mount a rear work light on my TC45D, without spending the $55 for the NH bracket! LOL! ....

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Murf
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2004-01-21          74633

A couple of points beg comment here.

First of all, Engineer is a VERY old term, in point of fact there are two types, Practical Engineers, and Professional or Licensed Engineers.

The latter meaning that you have a formal education and diploma in Engineering which is recognized by your membership in a legally recognized and regulated organization of Engineers.

In the most common sense of the word, the formar means you run an engine or machine.

Both terms come from the Latin word "ingenium" which literally means "skill".

Now, there's the ribbing Engineers get, usually by the people who have to execute or designs... Probably this is best summed up by the favourite saying of the old fellow who runs my shop and often has to try to implement an atypical design of mine "In theory a Bumble Bee can't fly but I won't complain about THAT design to the one who did it, but THIS one......."

As for the beer going flat, are you sure it's not just that in cold weather the beer isn't drank as fast as in hot weather, so then the last bit is flat by the time you get to it????

Best of luck. ....

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shortmagnum
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2004-01-21          74635

BR, I'm an theoretician AND experimentalist. As a theorist, I can't imagine the beer will get flat because of the cold. As an experimentalist I know 4-5 guys who would be very willing help perfect the experimental methods if I supply the materials.
Dave ....

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bigpete
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2004-01-21          74636

From bucket hooks to beer. Gotta' love this thread. Just to let you guys know, every time I have more than 3 Canadian beers when it's cold outside, I get totally annealed. Especially when I'm looking at my welded bucket hooks. <:~}Pete ....

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yooperpete
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2004-01-21          74637

I can handle your insults about my engineering profession but don't ever say that I'm a sluffer at drinking beer. The outdoor temperature at which I drink beer may change but the consumption rate is the same.

Last weekend I was ice fishing and it was about 10-15 degrees F. and the beer got flat pretty fast. I've done this experiment for allot of years now while hunting, fishing and being outdoors. Last winter in early February we were at the sled dog races in Chatham (Michigan U.P.) It was about midnight when the sleds came through and it was about -10 to -14 degrees F. The beer got flat real fast.

I always figured that with the lower temperatures the vapor pressure also reduces and therefore allows the carbon dioxide molecules to separate at a faster rate along with some alcohol. For that reason, I assumed that the beer tastes flat and watered down. Sounds like I need to drink faster in the winter months or move South. Any comments about this theory!

If anyone wishes to experiment with me, I'll be at the "Outhouse races" in the Munising/Chatham area in February. ....

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Wildman1
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2004-01-21          74638

Welding, beer and outhouse racing. OK.

I agree that beer goes flat faster when it's cold outside. So faster consumption rates, or fuel flow, helps.

Now, how does this all tie together? Well, an experience that I had may help explain.

I was at a winter BBQ and had accelerated my fuel flow to prevent flatness so had to use the port-a-can. In the process, other gents with high fuel flows began using the unused portion of their brains and decided that making the porta-can horizontal with me in it would be a stroke of brilliance...which came to pass.

After the "blue tide" had washed over me, I discovered that they had at least shown me the courtesy of leaving the door on top, which I promptly used.

The high fuel flow rate helped to "aneal" my attitude, preventing the situation from becoming "brittle" or "work hardened". And life was good afterwards.

So it's easy to see how this thread ties everything together..simple. ....

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gauthier
Join Date: Jun 1999
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2004-01-21          74639

Wildman,that is good,you made me grin. Thats gotta be the story of the month here. Richard ....

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Billy
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2004-01-21          74640

Hey Wildman1

You had to be a little peed? LOL
....

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AC5ZO
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2004-01-21          74641

As a brewer of beer, engineer, welder, machinist, and participant in other sorts of non-social behavior I can provide an answer or two.

re: Beer. Beer holds its CO2 at increasing amounts all the way down to freezing. (Beer is generally considered best by the residents of North America at about 40F) When beer starts to get colder than about 30, it starts to freeze and cannot hold CO2. This may happen around the outside of the can or bottle even if the beer does not freeze solid. If you put your beer in an insulated cup or holder just like in the summer, it will stay carbonated. Of course it does not hurt the beer to drink it faster, either.

re: Beer/IQ. It has never been proven that beer can raise your IQ. Of course, those that are really interested in the answer tend to have dimenished capacity before finishing their documentation. Although it is not absolutely scientific it is probably good to ask yourself if your history of decision making is better after having a substantial quantity of beer when evaluated a few days later with a sober eye.

re: welding...There are elements of truth in most of the detailed posts made previously. There are many terms that are used in different ways by different professions. Annealing can mean a specific process at a heat treater AND it can mean a characteristic change in metal crystal structure.

Others may know for sure, but I suspect that the steel used in a FEL bucket is going to be low carbon mild steel that has been cold rolled in some of the finishing operations and it will have a HAZ. (I would guess that it is 1018) In the HAZ will be a softened area and if the rod used contains alloying elements (like many of them do) then there could be a harder more brittle zone also. These bands of hardness and softness will run parallel to the weld. There is a zone near the weld that will be raised above the critical temperature where the steel becomes austenitic and will cool at a rate consistent with an annealing process. There is a band further from the weld that will cool more quickly that CAN become martensitic and brittle if alloying elements are in the steel or welding rod used. This can be particularly problematic with multi-pass welding where the alloy content is not entirely consistent with the base metal. ....

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Murf
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2004-01-21          74642

I still don't understand why people insist on using the term "buy beer".

Anybody who has any experience with the consumption of said product knows that at best it's a rental......

To add insult to injury, if you live in an area where the plumbing is connected to municipal sewers, you then likely pay a 'rental return fee' on your tax bill for having the priviledge of connecting to their (your?) pipe.

Best of luck.

PS: Search the archives for a post of mine to a thread a while back about outhouses & dynamite.... it was a pretty funny story too. ....

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AC5ZO
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2004-01-21          74668

The American Society for Metals defines annealing in much more general terms. In essence it says that annealing is achieved when "metals are heated to a suitable temperature and cooled at an appropriate rate." I was trying to avoid using the "annealing" term that can mean different things to different people. Slow cooling is not measured with a stopwatch, but by the phases that the metal crystals pass through on their way to room temperature and for how long the steel remains in those transition states. For the FEL loader bucket (probably 1018) it will do nothing else but "soften" when heated above critical (~900C). If you quenched it in water, it will still be soft, but the grains won't grow so large as if you just let it cool in air. Alloy steels are another matter althogether. (A-2 can be difficult to properly anneal and a long slow rate decrease in temperature is required.) Some metals such as copper and aluminum can be annealed so easily that a water quench is used routinely to limit grain growth.

If I limit my discussion to the specifics of the FEL, then I will stand by my earlier statement that there will be a softened area near the weld. This is because the steel (probably 1018) will be heated above critical temperature in the welding process to achieve fusion and it will cool at a rate that is "appropriate" for causing the release of stress stored in the material by cold rolling. If multiple welding passes were made, then there COULD also be a hard brittle area. The same ASM defines a full anneal of 1018 as reaching 900C and cooling to 705C over a one hour period. There is a difference between a full anneal and a whole spectrum of annealing (softening) to hardening that can occur any time steels are taken to critical temperature and back down to room temperature. Any of these effects can occur in a welded joint.

I don't generally read the Chinese boards so I don't know about that history. But, I do know that you have to be careful of attributing additional meaning to a fairly general term. It is not likely that welding could cause a "full anneal" but it is not correct to say that no annealing takes place just because the steel is not held at a high temperature for an hour as defined by ASM.

In fact if I want to soften most steel for machining, I will heat it to critical and cool it in room air till it is about 600F and then I will quench it in water. It will be only marginally different than steel that is fully annealed for an hour at a heat treater and will be done in a few minutes.

Just so you know, I worked at the largest metal casting operation on the west coast, developed heat treating cycles for rock drilling bits, and have done electron beam, laser, stick, MIG, TIG, spot, and other forms of welding as well as post machining on welded and heat treated structures.

....

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gauthier
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2004-01-21          74671

Well you guys are sure impressive with your backgrounds. My understanding is that to anneal mild steel means just what I and the books said,you heat it above the temp. where its ferrite changes to austenite,1600 degrees,you hold it there for an hour per inch of cross section of the heaviest parts being treated then you cool it very slowly,not in the open air,a furnace,bringing the temp down over a period of hours. Thats all I have been saying,when you weld something you are not annealing it,you are NOT making the metal softer,most people will tell you that you are making the heat affected zone harder and more brittle,but not softer. Grain structures and all that is good knowledge to have and I had some once,like you and know where to go find the book to refresh my knowledge,but its to boring,but your right in the weld and haz you will find a little of this and a little of that,but when you make a weld on mild steel you are not making the metal softer,you are not annealing it and that was the thing that we are talking about,annealing is just a word that means to do something,welding on mild steel does not meet that diffinition,thats what I'm saying,wishing it to,will not change that. Richard [This post was edited by others then me,most of the content is there,but not all,even the way I said a couple things were altered by some one whos knowledge of welding is nill] ....

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AC5ZO
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2004-01-21          74677

It seems that you want annealing to fall into a category of a "black or white definition" and that is just not the way it is. As you say, wishing will not make it that way.

To use an analogy, if a "full anneal" was the "white" definition and "as worked" (no heat treatment)was the other extreme or the definition of "black"; then there are a whole range of shades of gray that will account for various levels of annealing or softening of metals. The definition that you brought up is the correct definition of a "full anneal." This discussion is about annealing. In a metals handbook "Annealing" would take up much of a whole chapter dedicated to heat treatment. I am afraid that you cannot boil it down to a three line definition in Webster's dictionary.

I did not tell you my "title" I told you what I know and what I have done specifically relating to this subject. This is practical experience of an engineer that gets his hands dirty. I don't know why you have a chip on your shoulder for engineers and frankly I don't care. You can take the advise or leave it. ....

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gauthier
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2004-01-21          74679

You are right about there being various grain changes in weld metal and haz,some harder then base metal,some softer then base metal,no argument there. But if you go by the books difinition of annealing,it means just what I have described above. Now there are other terms that are related to heat treating that occur in weld and haz as well,NORMALIZING,HARDENING,QUENCHING,TEMPERING,and others to one degree or another,sometimes,sometimes not,so the haz can have a wide range of degrees of hard ,soft,brittle,etc. So you see I agree with you there.

What got me started was the statement that its not a good idea to weld on the loader bucket cause it would anneal the material/weld and make a less then satisfactory,fix,that it would be better to drill holes and bolt it,or something like that. Well I didn't agree and still don't with that.

Then some body came on and said he thought thats why the most critical area of a weld was the haz,BECAUSE of it being annealed,so thats when I started saying that anneal was not being used in its correct form,You see how the meaning of these words gets confused to most non welder types?

I still say the most impotant fact in making any weld,is using the correct method for the job and having a knowageable welder making the weld. If its somehow dangerous to weld on a johndeere loader bucket,then you would think a bridge would fall down every day,airplanes would fall apart on landing,power plants would blow up.

I have been helped by engineers and have helped engineers on the job,being an"engineer" doesn't really mean anything other then the fact that you graduated from college with an "engineering" degree,I know,cause I've run into a lot of them in the last 25 years,some knew their stuff,some didn't,like any other occupation. Lastly,did you say you wasn't going to give me anymore help or something like that? I swear,I can't remember asking you for any,although the beer bubble thing was pretty good.. Richard ....

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TomG
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2004-01-22          74697

Happy the thread started simple, proceeded to really difficult and ended pretty good--and no need for Dennis's cyber jail. Our Board reputation remains intact. We solve most of our problems without being reduced to vanilla flavoured pap by moderators.

Is everybody sure the flat beer thing isn't Boyle's Law--gaseous solubility in liquid increases as temperature decreases? I've always though that's true and the CO2 in cold N.A. carbonated beer just comes out in the digestive tract as it warms. It makes you, well you know--could be a social problem in some situations.

These British style pubs in N.A. that give you frosted mugs seems curious. You're supposed to sit around drinking beer and chatting away with whoever you find next to you for hours and hours. But the frosted mugs may give you good reason after awhile to not want to be close enough to talk to anybody. It's a variation on the biffy race idea. ....

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DRankin
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2004-01-22          74702

I haven't heard the word "biffy" since I was a kid in Minnesota. Brings a smile. ....

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AC5ZO
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2004-01-22          74704

Tom, you are right about the solubility of gas in a liquid as it is cooled. That law holds up until the time that the liquid starts to change from liquid to a solid. I am guessing that beer would freeze at about 30F, but no self respecting brewer is going to freeze perfectly good beer to test this. Certainly the beer will release CO2 when it is warmed by the stomach, but I think that more study is needed. I don't want to jump to any hasty conclusions. ;-) ....

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plots1
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2004-01-22          74705

I'm not real sure about some of the things this topic has turned to, But I know it started in concern of bent loaders from hooks. I can say I've seen a lot of loaders with hooks and plates or angle welded on them for strength and all seem to hold out real well. the top lip of my loader got bent by pushing large brush piles. after bolting then welding angle across top lip then welding hooks to angle I haven't had a problem since. as far as gettin annealed from beer....... well that's a whole different topic. LOL ....

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AC5ZO
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2004-01-22          74710

Plots, from what I have seen of your pictures, you have done a pretty good job on your projects. Even if the material is somewhat softened by welding, the reinforcement strip will provide extra load carrying ability and is a solution to that problem.

But there is a practical limit. On my FEL, the capacity is rated at the pivot pin without the bucket (I think). So any steel welded to the bucket will reduce the overall capacity of the FEL. This is not likely to be a problem for most people, but I have a few projects where I lift at full capacity of my tractor and loader. In those cases, I take the bucket or pallet forks completely off and carry the load from the frame with lifting slings. I expect that my pallet forks cut my peak capacity by 250 or 300 pounds. ....

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ScooterMagee
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2004-01-22          74732

I will probably regret asking. But anyway, here goes. So that I can better understand.

Given a welded structure, with all components fabricated from the same high strength steel alloy, and which has loads applied such that all components, which make up the structure are evenly stressed until failure.

Also, assume that the welding was properly performed by a skilled welder.

I would predict the failure to occur in the heat affected zone of a weld. Am I wrong? And if so Why?

Once again, I’m only asking, so that I may better understand what's going on when something is welded.
....

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gauthier
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2004-01-22          74734

Humm,thats a question that cannot be answered,[where the completly welded structure will fail],unless you would actually do the test. What I think you are getting at is the haz is the weakest part of the structure,we don't know if it is or not,there could be a defect in the metal that went unseen,it might not be designed correctly, one of the welds itself could be defective,[ie,slag inclusion,undercut,etc],but,yes, generally speaking the haz of a weld is its weakest link,but there are to many other things to consider in your question. And I will add that softness is not a problem one generally thinks of when refering to problems with the haz,its brittleness[hardness],that comes to mind,soft is generally a good thing,means its more elastic,less brittle. AC could add to this I'm sure,enginners do look at these problems differently. Richard ....

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Vetcor
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2004-01-22          74742

Unless everyone is sick of welding stuff, how would you go about welding pot metal? I had a component break and, of course, my gasless MIG would not come close to fixing it. The new part came fast, but it would be handy to be able to put some of the really light parts together for a temporary fix. The hydro assembly linkage on mine is made out of it, and maybe the pedal itself. I thought maybe some sort of aluminum, but I could not braze with propane and aluminum rod, and never tried to epoxy the whole thing, but that might have worked for a while. Ideas? ....

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gauthier
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2004-01-22          74743

A magnet will tell you if its alum. or steel.Something like I think you are talking about,is hard to get a good weld on,little,many pieces etc. But if its metal you can weld it,or braze it,or solder it,etc.See if its magnetic and if it is,try welding it,sounds like you are oxy.act welding?, so use a small tip,don't just melt it away,get you a couple of nails and practice on,if its something with a lot of curves etc. it may warp from the heat and not be useable. Some things are just easier to buy new ones then try and weld them up to where they work like new. Richard ....

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AC5ZO
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2004-01-22          74744

"Pot" metal is generally a zinc/aluminum alloy of sorts. It is not easy to weld. The zinc oxidizes in air very easily at high temperatures. It melts at a fairly low temperature (somewhat above tin lead solder but below pure aluminum). Sometimes aluminim brazing rod will work on the stuff, but the brazing rod and zinc/aluminum alloy melt at about the same temperature, so it is tough. In general I would recommend a machine shop repair rather than welding on this particular alloy.

I have repaired some heavier section pot metal parts by machining a hole through the part and putting a steel dowel rod across the joint. The joint can be bonded together with a good epoxy like JB Weld if it is properly reinforced with steel across the crack. I have only done this on non-critical parts and really would suggest getting a new part for a critical control linkage.
....

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Vetcor
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2004-01-22          74747

Thanks for the info. Glad I'm not the only one that has a tough time with the stuff. Just as an aside, I knew a welder that had a machine to weld stuff like that when I lived in the north. He would fix light metal parts with a tiny, tiny elec arc that pulsed. I had no idea what he was doing, but I never had a part break in the same place after he fixed it, e.g., some of the parts inside steering columns. He told me there was no metal he could not weld, but that some VW stuff was very tough and needed imported rods. Thanks again. ....

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bigpete
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2004-01-22          74766

Stopped by my dealer to check on my incoming 4110 and see how the bucket hooks are going. Talked with the top-dog shop welder who is doing the work to impress him with all my newfound knowledge. He saw right through it, of course. Asked him whether he had ever had problems with his repair welds or bucket hooks breaking or coming loose. He told me that, of course there had been a couple early in his 20 year career as a welder on ag equipment and custom bikes, but that once you have the technique and can recognize the proper materials, that his weld often held up when a customer pulled something apart at other factory welded seam. He also mentioned that my hydraulics will go to pressure relief and my wheels come off the ground before I ever stress even a crappy weld of this type. As you might guess, he also mentioned that when morons begin "yanking" the slack on chains while pulling or lifting something that all the rules were off.

Phew!....Man am I ever sorry I clicked the "Please notify me" drop down box when I posted. I haven't had this much spam since they first figured they could try to sell Viagara on the Web. ....

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Wildman1
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2004-01-23          74776

Well..on a more serious note..not dealing with beer and outhouses, I was an A&P (airframe & powerplant)(then it was A&E)(Aircraft & Engine) student at Spartan School of Aeronautics in Tulsa, OK from 1963-65. I learned that I'd rather fly airplanes than work on them and changed to the commercial flight school. Then..I retired in 1990 from 20 years as a cop in Anchorage. Nevermind..it's a long story.

One of the classes was aircraft welding. Back then, with aircraft, it was all gas..no electric. One of the last tests that we took was to join 2 pieces of 1/4" X 2" 4130 and then have the results put in a tension device to see where it broke. If it broke within 1" of the weld...you failed. All passing welds broke in the unaffected areas.

With aircraft, there's no margin for guesstomating error. Do it right or die.

So...what really is the welding issue here?? I don't care if you are an engineer or not, if it works..that's great. If it doesn't..back to the drawing board. BUT..if the issue could kill someone..then get really tight with the science and regulations and have your work triple checked by those that know.

BTW, Spartan had its own acetelene generator for its school until around the mid-50's. Then it blew...wiping out 10 sq. blocks. Maybe that furthered electro welding.

Mike
....

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AC5ZO
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2004-01-23          74794

Mike, you are right. Engineering is an experimental science in that success is built on failures. Today, we have the ability to not only understand the what and how, but also the why in most cases. Ultimately why something occurs is the most important understanding that leads to how and what you do to solve a problem.

With respect to welding, 4130 is a whole different animal. It is a Chrome Moly steel that hardens and heat treats very easily. The HAZ is critical and has more problems when welding 4130 steel. We use 4130 tubing in all the frames of our race cars and the construction is very similar to tube airframe construction. As you say, the consequences of a bad weld are enormous.

The steels used in a FEL are not as tricky to weld, but as you can see from this thread, there are deeply held beliefs about what happens during the welding process and why a failure might have occurred. ....

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NHDaveD
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2004-01-23          74811

Hi guys and gals (I don't want to assume and possiblly insult someone), as you may be able to tell I'm new to this board. I started out as an un-registered guest, recently became a registered member, and just today became a premium member. Maybe it was so that I could read everything posted in this very interesting thread.

I am a Mechanical Engineer with over 25 years in manufacturing, design, and quality control mostly in the military defense high tech sector. However, I consider my self a jack of all trades and master of none. I'm much happier with a wrench and screwdriver in my hand than with a pencil and paper. Also, I HAVE NOT WELDED IN 20 YEARS so I don't have much to add to the welding portion of this thread.

There, I got my intro and qualifications out of the way.

What I wanted to say was that 99.9999999% of the time I find all of the postings useful information and even sometimes with an added bonus of humor. (The parts of this thread on beer have been very good. Having spent the first 2 years of college in norhtern NY I can tell you that the Canadian beer that we used to go over the border and get was much better than the same brand that we could buy in the states.)

Please be nice to each other. Respect each others opionions and backgrounds. We all have things we can offer to and learn from each other. And no I don't do political correctness if anyone is even thinking it.

Being new to this board and to CUT's it will probably be quite some time before I have more to give than I'm asking to take as far as advice. So the only advice I can possible close with in this thread is in the words of the great Doctor Sidney Freedman: "Ladies and gentlemen, take my advice, pull down your pants and slide on the ice".

Thanks,
Dave


....

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yooperpete
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2004-01-23          74820

My introduction of beer and outhouse races to this thread was meant to sidetrack the dialogue that was getting quarrelsome. The intent was for you guys to relax and cool off a little. I'm a new member also that is really enjoying, "reading the rest of the story" that was missed as a non register member. I hope you guys don't apply for jobs at the post office.

Hopefully you guys have also found that a large number of the members have a great deal of experience in varied fields and have a lot more in common than just owning a tractor. Most of you are "strong willed" for one.

As a side note if anyone is interested, go to "munising.com" and type in "outhouse races" in the upper right query. You will learn about the "Trenary Outhouse Classic" that is held the last Saturday in February every year.

....

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Chief
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2004-01-23          74821

NHDaveD, welcome! Always a pleasure to see another premium member or any member for that matter! Don't let this post color your perception. We have an occasional food fight, but the board over all has some great content and some great folks posting it and always willing to help out. Just in there and post away! Nice tractor you got there too! ;o) ....

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NHDaveD
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2004-01-23          74823

Chief, thanks for the welcome. I agree about the content and fine folk. That's why I finally stepped off the sideline and joined. I'll be back often and with a lot of questions. Dave ....

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beagle
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2004-03-12          79695

Read a lot of interesting stuff in here about the HAZ in welding. Annealing takes a very long time, the time required to relieve all the residual stress in the molecular grain of the metal from the rolling processes. Until recently, steel was annealed (held at approximately 900 degrees) up to 48hrs to allow the grain pattern irregularities to completely relieve. The problem created in the HAZ by welding low carbon steel is brittle fracture, not soft metal. If a weld cools too fast, excited grain patterns are trapped in the steel, hardening the metal. There are also the shrinkage stresses that develop as the weld cools that puts residual tesion fields in the HAZ and the weld. Pre-heating and post heating welds in larger members that act as energy sinks is effective at controlling these stress risers, and controlling laminar tears in the material grain pattern. Quench hardened steel is extremely hard( high Rockwell number) but very brittle. Don't ever quench cool a weld, you've created yourself a completely different material. For most low carbon steels, hot or cold rolled, pre-heat is not required at temperatures over 32 degrees, and for thicknesses under 3/4". Over 3/4", check AWS D1.1 table 3.2 for recommended pre-heat and post heat temperatures. For kicking around the pole barn, go ahead and weld, take a tall one to let it cool.

By the way, every piece of steel used for the body panels and underpan of you car, tractor (unless it's green ), and washing machine is annealed. Annealing creates consistent grain patterns in the steel so it can be formed by stamping without cracking. ....

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Chief
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2004-03-13          79708

PLEASE!!!! Let's not open this bucket of worms again. Time to put this thread with the beaver dam and fuel additive threads. Amen!!! ....

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grinder
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2004-03-13          79709

I think we should let the Man speak, sounds pretty knowledgeable to me. Unlike some in that thread that
don't seem to participate any longer.
I wouldn't want to discourage a new member that I might
want to ask a question of.
My 2 cents ....

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TomG
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2004-03-13          79726

It's the sort of subject I like. Too bad this particular thread didn't stick with the subject and turned into a bunch of personal baggage stuff--the most excessive of which are now deleted. It does happen and there are a few more examples that could be added to Chief's list. I'm with Chief in that regard.

I think the problem is the association with this particular thread rather than the subject itself--maybe it'd be good another time and place. I'd like to think I can keep learning from other people here and hope that turning into an armchair metallurgist will be generally indulged by others. I for one didn't know that annealing mild steel was fairly standard. There are good points here at the level of armchair metallurgy to apply to armchair welding. ....

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Chief
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2004-03-13          79746

Guys, I made the post in jest as a tongue in cheek thing. Don't get your panties in a bunch. Guess I should have put a ;o) instead of the Amen. ....

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TomG
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Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley
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2004-03-14          79818

Oh yeah. Lots of knotted pants around tax time. If I only would have been known as iron pants when I was in then I could anneal my but to relieve some stress. Never had the rank for the iron pants thing though. I'm with you on this one too Chief. Lots of people could use some but annealing in these modern times I think and too bad I missed your humour. ....

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Chief
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 4297 Southwest MiddleTennessee
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2004-03-14          79848

I should have been more overt about my failed attempt at some humor guys. ;o) Sorry. Meant no harm and was just trying to cast a little humor on a subject that hit a few rough spots in the road.

Beagle I in no way meant to infer that you should not post to this thread and add to it. Hope no offense was taken as surely none was intended. ....

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beagle
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 1333 Michigan
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2004-03-14          79888

Nah, a little surprised through. Didn't notice the thread until too late I guess. Thought it would be worthwhile expounding on annealing though. There seemed to be some confusion. My mother always told me speak when spoken to. Still don't know what that means. ....

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AC5ZO
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 928 Rio Rancho, NM 87144
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2004-03-17          80138

As I said earlier in this thread, annealing means more than one thing. It means one thing to a heat treater, another thing to a welder, and something else to an engineer.

In the most general sense, annealing and softening can be used interchangably. But, I know that if I go to a heat treater and say "Anneal" we are talking about a specific process of elevated temperature for a definite minimum period of time.

Beagle, I agree with most of your post, but the HAZ can have soft (annealed) areas, brittle areas, and a number of other characteristics depending on the base metal, welding electrode, and welding process used. I also agree that weld embrittlement is a more serious problem. ....

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richardg
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 0 PA
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2004-08-08          92977

AC,,anealing does not mean more than one thing,,annealing means heating a part 100 degrees above upper critical temp. [about 1600 degrees for steel],held for an hour per inch of cross section,and very slow cooled,,in a furnace,,,this is to soften the metal,,,,,there are different heat treat process,but that is what annealing means,,,,and by the way,,you do not anneal when welding something,,,,,,,you all right chief? I'M BACK,,,RICHARDG ....

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