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Discussion Boards > Active Subjects > Messages as Posted > Diesel Fuel Lubrication Engine Additives Forum

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 11-23-2001, 18:18 Post: 33365
Don M



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 Winter Oil

I have seen a name brand diesel oil that is synthetic or semi-synthetic, at 5W40. I am wondering if I could run it year round in my JD, here in Illinois. Operations would be in ambient temps of slightly above zero F up to maybe 100F. Can I combine the 5W30 and 15W40 temperature charts shown in my manual to arrive at the range for a 5W40?

-Wonderin'






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 11-24-2001, 06:57 Post: 33374
TomG

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 Winter Oil

The simple answer probably is that a 5W-40 would work year around if a 40 grade is recommend for the tractor in hot weather, but I'd check with a dealer. My dealer's service manager uses a NH 0W-30 year-around in his equipment, but I don't know if that constitutes a dealer recommendation or not. The dealer does recommend the 0W-30, and I did leave it in over the summer this year. However, I wondered if I was contributing to engine wear during engine warn-up. I think the answer is complex and depends on the exact multi-grade properties of the oil. I did warm the engine into its operating temperature range before moving the tractor.

I believe the thing to keep in mind is that there have been some changes in definitions and standards over the years as well as advancement in oil formulation. Many tractor manuals were written before current oils were developed, and manual recommendations may be somewhat dated. Dealers should be current on service bulletins that would cover recommendations for appropriate oils. My brother-in-law was spouting oil facts and figures about a year ago. He found a bunch of technical data on the web, but I suppose you'd need an engineering background to interpret the data in terms of engine operation. Guess I have to trust that oil formulators have created oils that have stable properties that cover the entire normal operating temperature range of a tractor. If that's true, then it's not going to make much difference whether it's a cool summer day or a real hot one. I believe that the way multi-grade oils work that the first number is the ‘base’ and mixing different bases always will produce cold temperature properties between the two bases.






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 11-24-2001, 09:08 Post: 33376
Peters

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 Winter Oil

SAE (Society of automotive engineers) rate oils at 2 temperatures 0 F and 210 F. Straight weight oil is measured only at 210 and has the designation SAE 30 etc. Oils measured at the lower temperature have the designation W therefore a 10W has a viscosity of 10 at 0 F.
For example a SAE 0W-40 oil has a viscosity rating of a 0 oil at 0 F and a visosity rating like a 40 oil at 210 F. For cold starts the lower the W rating the better. For hot weather the higher SAE number (second number) is desirable. If your machine is running hot then then you will get thinning of the oil and it may not provide correct protection.
Mixing of oils will not provide you the desired affect. You will tend to lower the second number more than the first. For example a 50/50 mix of 5W-30 and 15W-40 will probably provide you with something like a 10W-32.
My advice is to change the oils in the season unless you can find a synthethic with a 5W-40. You need to check the owners manual and see is the lower weight oil is recommended.
As for the use of 0W-30 year round, that would depend on how far north you are. I would not want 30 weight in my diesel engine in hot weather. When working the engine down here I have seen thinning of the hydralic oil.
I am the other extreme I run 15W-40 year round. We do not get 0C weather let alone 0F. I am more concerned with the second number.
For starting wear the first number is important and the lower the better. You want the oil to fill the bearings and journals as quickly as possible.






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 11-24-2001, 11:44 Post: 33379
Art White



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 Winter Oil

All this concern for the oil when often we here people here looking to save a dollar on an oil filter that often doesn't include an anti-drain back valve. I give up. I do appreciate those that do worry about there investment and how as a whole product protect it.






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 11-25-2001, 05:31 Post: 33396
TomG

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Pretty good responses. For myself, there are quite a few days here that are -30F or less and few that exceed 90F. My manual specs 15W-40 for use in 90+ weather. I don't really want to work when it's that hot so my 0W-30 oil may give me an excuse to avoid the few really hot days around here. Hot days and biting bugs in about six varieties go together around here as well as air pollution from the south. All in all, real hot weather is a good reason to stay off the tractor. It also rains a lot, and because I don't hay, I have the choice of sitting in the shade or fishing most times.

I've never tried to save a dollar on an oil filter and stick with NH factory filters. I've noticed it does take 10-15 seconds for the oil light to go off after the first start of the day. I have wondered if the pricey NH filters have an anti-drainback valve. Suppose I'll check now. Thanks for the comment.






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 11-25-2001, 09:48 Post: 33402
Peters

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 Winter Oil

Filter price and quality do not necessarily equate. Fram would not put a back drain valves in their filters for years claiming better performance. It is very difficult to determine the porosity of the filtermedia, but the number of pleats or amount of material used can be determined looking down the cartridge. All things being equal the amount of media will influence the dirt holding capacity (more = greater) and the back pressure of the filter (more = less).
More recently I have purchased filters at an autoparts store. They sold an OEM (Original equipment manufacturer) brand for my pickup and another brand that was an oil companies synthetic oil logo on it. Through close inspection it was not difficult to determine that they were the same exact filter, from the same supplier. The oil company branded filter was 40% more than the other. Neither company was a filter manufacture.
My decision to purchase a filter revolve around, back flow valve, the amount of media in the filter, and the type of media in the filter. It is not made on what colors it is painted. Like lead acid batteries few of the brand names represent the manufactures.
Some of the OEM tractor branded filters are inferior to other after market filters. MF comes to mind at lest for my MF65.
I'm sorry if I dissappoint some dealers, but I have used filters in critical industrial applications, designed filter systems and developed new filter type media. I guess I don't look at things from the normal prospective. Correct me if I am wrong.






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 11-25-2001, 14:31 Post: 33409
DRankin



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 Winter Oil

Back to the original question.......... From my perspective there is no comparison between the performance of petroleum based motor oils and synthetic based motor oils. I have done a bunch of reading and research on the subject and have come to the conclusion that a good synthetic is as close to an all season, all year around oil as you are going to get. According to Mobil 1 specs, for instance, their 10-30 will pour at more than -50 F and is thermally stable at +400 F. That far exceeds what any natural product can do. They also have documentation of running a BMW for one million miles using the manufacturers oil change intervals and found all the critical engine parts within new tolerances at the end of the million mile test. Yes, I do believe that you can find a synthetic that you can run all year that will do a better job than any conventional oil. Read the stuff on Mobil 1's web site or check out Redlineoil.com. By the way, I have replaced head gaskets on two higher mileage engines that were run on synthetic oils in Alaska. In both cases( a Datsun 710 with 97,000 miles and a Ford Van with a straight 6 at 77,000 miles) I found the factory hone marks clearly visible on all of the cylinder walls. And I did my oil changes once a year back then and paid no attention the the odometer.






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 11-27-2001, 06:44 Post: 33457
TomG

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 Winter Oil

Mark: That's the general impression I've formed as well. I seem to have a prejudice against synthetics and haven't switched. I really don't know why, since I certainly don't want to change oil more frequently than recommend intervals. Used oil has become difficult to dispose of. I end up having our car and truck serviced so the garage owner isn't too unhappy about taking our used tractor and small engine oil as well. I guess it's understandable that the owner doesn't appreciate people who change their own oil and then bring it to him for disposal.

The 0W-30 NH oil I use comes pretty close to an all-season oil for this area. It certainly works in the winter, and I guess I could check out the viscosity at summer temperatures. However, the oil may not be entirely a petro based multi-grade oil. NH F200 TX oil, which is a multi-season version of 134D, was described to me as a semi-synthetic--what ever that means. Guess there's a chance that I actually switched to a synthetic without knowing it. The only tangible reason I've heard for not using a synthetic is during the break-in period of a new tractor. Some people say that HST's run much cooler on synthetics using the summer, but I’ve got gears and probably will have gears forever.






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 11-27-2001, 11:13 Post: 33464
Peters

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 Winter Oil

Lubricating oil is not as clear as it seems. Penn. grade crude was good as it was high in paraphinic oils. On the Penn. oil stock ran out it was difficult to duplicate. A few years ago the oil companies started to hydrotreat there basestocks. Good hydrotreated oils are water white.
Incidently I tested on a few years ago. The flashpiont was over 500 F and there was no discoloration after ignition.
To the base stocks additives are mixed to prevent oxidation and increase detergive activity. These additives and base stocks are improving all the time. There is a letter code on the SAE oils this letter code indicates the next grade of oil. Older oils are not nearly as good as the most recent oils. Most of the improvement in engine life time can be attributed to the improvements in oils.
As with all base stocks there is some variation in the feed due to the differences in the oil produced from oil bearing structures around the world. These impurities can cause problems in the oils.
Synthetic oils take ethylene and oligomerize (create small oil chains) to form pure paraphinic oils. With controlled pure stock they can add the antioxidants to prevent prevent break down and increase cleaning action. I talked with the Royal Purple people a number of years ago, one of the makers of premium oils for aircraft and industry. The new hydrotreated base stocks from the newer plants are very good quality. I use the regular shell oil for my diesel applications.






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 11-27-2001, 12:22 Post: 33468
MarkS



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 Winter Oil

Shell Rotella (formulated for Diesel engines) has a synthetic 5W-40 that I just put in my tractor. Don't know if it is a good Idea or not, but I fell pretty confident that is will be a good year round oil for me. I live in southern IL near St. Louis MO where the temperatures range anywhere from 0F (but usually not much below 20) in the winter to 100F in the summer.






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