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New Cadet safety feature is a pain

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Mike Drudge
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2002-05-06          38204

Hello All,

Just purchased a new 1517 Cub Cadet and after using it once, I'm amazed that the new Cubs now have a feature that disables the PTO anytime the machine is put in reverse. I probably put the machine in reverse 30+ times evertime I mow the lawn, negotioating around trees, etc. That mean the PTO has the be turned off....and on again, 30+ times. Besides being a major pain, it's got to cause more wear on the pully and belts. I totally support safety features, but this....is going a bit far in my opinion. Anyone else have this experience w/ the new Cub Cadets?

-Mike


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kay
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2002-05-06          38206

I am not familiar with the Cub Cadet, but am with John Deere. JD has an over-ride on the mower engage switch that will bypass the reverse cut-off switch.
I understand that it was Cub that was sued when someone backed over a child with the deck running, and now all tractor/mowers have the reverse cut-off switch built in. Children shouldn't be anywhere around when using a mower anyway, let alone behind the mower.
Look for the over-ride method on your Cub. What you describe is a nightmare. ....

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Murf
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2002-05-06          38208

I agree some 'safety' mechanisms are a little ridiculous, some are just plain dumb. Case in point, some of our mowers have a 'dead-man' switch in the seat, when you stand up the ignition shuts off, however, if you step on the brake pedal it will keep running. So if you have to get out of the seat to move some debris it shuts off the engine, it will not stay idling. The dumb part is the machine is equipped with a seperate parking brake system, in front of the parking brake lever is a sticker which reads "Never leave a machine running unattended." How would this be possible unless you bypassed the safety system. It's just one of those things that makes you go Hmmmmm..... Best of luck. ....

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Stan
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2002-05-06          38215

When I got rid of my White Garden Tractor and traded for my Massey, one of the BEST things I found was that on the Massey, there was not an override - It was a pain to cut around some of my stuff and have to re-start the deck every time.

If I want to leave the seat - the PTO must be off or the engine quits. If the PTO is off, then I can apply the parking brake and leave the engine running.

Since I don't have any PTO equip that I want running if I'm not in the seat, this isn't a bad setup for me. ....

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cutter
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2002-05-06          38220

Actually, it was John Deere that was sued for that mishap I believe. At least that is what the Cub dealer told me years back when I purchased an 18hp Super Tractor. Same setup though, every time you backed up the electric clutch disengaged. I found a micro-switch mounted inside the dash next to the hydrostatic control lever. I simply bent it over a bit, end of problem. Never did back over the children, dog, cat or neighbor and chop them up. Must be I operated it in a safe manner, and the kids knew not to go near any equipment that was running unless they were looking at the operator and were motioned that it was ok. With much of the population functionally illiterate due to being raised away from equipment and the rural envoirnment, the government tries to make everything idiot proof. I saw two urbanites trimming a hedge one day in the inner city with an old hand mower. They had one hand on each wheel and moved it over the hedge. It was truly a sight to behold, and now I can't let go of my trimming mower to pick up a stick without it shutting off. Oh well, that's progress right. ....

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TomG
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2002-05-07          38243

Yikes! That safety feature would sure make using my 3ph snow blower difficult. Disabling safety features really isn't a solution. If there's ever an accident, then there's probably also no insurance. Maybe it's a good thing I like my gears and my old tractor.

Still, the other day I did wonder if my 4wd was working because I was spinning only one tire. Turned out that I engaged the PTO instead of the 4wd. Guess that's why they come with guards. Similar to another comment about getting used to shifting with your left hand: I get used to it pretty quick. After a hard day of loader work, I tend to hop into my 1/2-ton and put it in gear by signaling for a left turn. Well, maybe these safety features aren't all bad. Of course, I don't have a PTO brake that gives me five seconds or so after the engine shuts down to align the shaft. I might have a little difficulty with that one too.
....

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Peters
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2002-05-07          38284

The old common sense is not too common these days.
I heard that one of the mower manufactures had been sued as a result of someone cutting off a hand mowing the hedge. The arguement was that the sticker did not say keep hands away when mowing only feet.
I can not understand why people are not responsible for their own mistakes. I just makes our lives more difficult. I mow under low branches by backing up.
My take on it is, that the problem is 1 in 100, 1 out of 100 are lawyers in this country. With that percentage it becomes a make work proposition.
....

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Art White
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2002-05-08          38300

Over the past few years nearly every manufacturer of lawn mowers has been sued for someone running over someone with a mower. It is a shame that the courts have made it that we can goof up and hold someone else for our mistakes. ....

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Miike Drudge
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2002-05-08          38317

Thanks for all your comments on this - since I started this thread I'll give you an update - directly from Cub Cadet's Consumer Product's Correspondant Kelly Morlock:
she first replied:
>The unit will not mow in reverse on its' own. You do not have the disengage the PTO yourself every time you back up. This is a safety feature...." <

My footnote: You don't have to disengage the PTO...it'll do it for you! Then you have to push the knob in...and out again to engage it...

And she follows up with:

I am the Consumer Products Correspondent. This again is a safety feature implemented on our equipment. MTD Products was actually one of the first outdoor power equipment manufacturers to implement this feature and it has been well received overall.

Judging by the comments on this thread, and personal comments I've recieved from folks locally (Including local dealers), her assessment that the feature has been well received is far from being well received.

Like I said, I'll figure out how to bypass the feature, or it'll go back to Lowe's where I bought it.

-Mike

....

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BillMullens
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2002-05-08          38318

My MTD (Lowes) riding mower does indeed have that feature. Or should I say, did have that feature for about 5 minutes after I discovered it. In my case, the shifter grounds a contact when going into reverse to shut the engine off if the mower deck is running; a single piece of electrical tape took care of it.
Bill ....

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Bird Senter
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2002-05-08          38323

In 1995, I bought a new Cub Cadet lawn tractor and very promptly discovered that "feature" and told the dealer I had no use for the machine unless that feature could be disabled. He first told me that Federal law required that feature, and that it was "illegal" for them to disable it, but when he realized that I was serious, he said the mechanic could "show" me how to unplug it myself (I was leaving it with him to correct a problem with the steering). When I went back to get it, the mechanic told me it had been disabled, but that he'd deny it if I told the boss. So I didn't actually see how it was done, although he told it was just a matter of unplugging a connector on the left rear side of the engine.

Now I just recently bought a new Craftsman lawn tractor with the manual (lever) activated PTO instead of the electric clutch and it will certainly mow in reverse without deactivating the PTO, so I doubt that there is any "law" requiring such a feature.

At any rate, I, too, have no intention of turning the PTO off and on 30+ times to mow my yard (and mine, too, would require at least that many times). ....

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cutter
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2002-05-08          38329

I agree with Tom that disabling a safety feature is not good, however it might just depend upon your definition of what a "safety feature" is. If someone makes a product harder to use by trying to making it idiot proof with grand thoughts of fending off law suits, to me that can be defined as covering your ass. Now, removing the seat belts in your car or hacking off the roll bar is a different story. Disabling that reverse cut off switch will produce about the same results as tearing the tags off your mattress, as long as you operate the items in question safely you should have no negative effects. Of course this is just my opinion! ....

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Peters
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2002-05-08          38332

Please for CBT members only. We don't want to give them any more stupid ideas.
If this reverse lock out is so good why don't they place ratchet cog mechanisms one the wheels of the push mowers so you can move it backward and mow over your feet? Contemplate how much difficulty you would have trimming with this CYA mechanism attached. ....

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cutter
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2002-05-08          38334

Actually, there are many things that they have overlooked. How about overload protection on bicycles so you don't have to look at a 400 pounder moulded around the seat (that would be eye protection). Then there is the engine cut-off switch for your automobile that activates if you are too close to another vehicle, a railroad crossing with the gates down or at the dark corner in a bad neighborhood and the local hood has an illegal transmitter box to make you his next victom. My favorite would be water sensors on your boat trailer so you don't launch it in a parking lot. ....

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Peters
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2002-05-08          38337

Come to think of it I have seen a lot of bone head moves. Maybe they should put all these mechanism on everything and then only the intelligent people can disarm them?
Scratch that I think I am more of the Darwin Award type.
I don't know about the boat yard launching but I have seen a couple of people launch the truck. It is really not a good idea in the salt water with the engine running.
I also saw a couple stand the boat on the skeg of their I/O on the ramp.
....

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treeman
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2002-05-08          38346

All this safety equipment is just to show the courts they are making an attempt to idiot proof the machine. The companies are just covering their rears. The problem is that idiots will always find a way to get hurt regardless of the safety equipment. Only the lawyers are making out. ....

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RISKY WATERS
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2002-05-16          38694

THE SWITCH FOR THIS FEATURE IS LOCATED AT THE THE BACK OF THE PEDAL LINKAGE OVER THE RIGHT BACK AXLE.IT LOOKS LIKE A PIECE OF A FURNACE THERMOSTAT COIL. JACK AND SUPPORT BACK END OF MOWER TO MAKE ACCESS EASIER.USIENG A SCREWDRIVER OR A VERY LONG NEEDLE NOSE PLIERS,JIMMY OFF THE ATTACHED WIRE.SMEAR SOME SILICON ON THE TIP OF THE SCREWDRIVER AND DAB IT ON THE END OFF THE FEMALE CONNECTER TO PREVENT GROUNDIG. ....

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Art White
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2002-05-17          38715

Following this thread has been interesting. For someone to tell someone how to disable a safety device makes that person liable for the injuries that the user or anyone injured from that unit might recieve. The line can go down thru different owners. There has been much discussion about the safety switches and as a Cadet dealer(I don't like the switches for myself either)we do have people who do want them. ....

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RISKY
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2002-05-17          38717

Art,

A useless safety device is just that, useless!

I once had a pushmower that had one of those rubber flaps at the rear of the deck. I was all for that, I had been hit by flying debris before.

That is until I stepped on it causing me to run into the handle, tipping the mower over and falling on top of it. Fortunately, I fell in a way that caused me to stradle across it and I was staring into the blades of the mower.

Thankfuly, I got out of the situation without harm . But you can bet I took that flap off and didn't have any problems in the ten years I had the mower.

While I would urge people to carefuly consider the dangers of disarming saftey divices, I will not be held captive by a su crazy(greedy) legal system.

Any time I can help some one with a problem like this I will. Secondly nobody likes a safety god any more than a nitpicky grammer teacher. "who" "whom" nobody cares the question is are you being understood.

One safety device I leave active on my mower even though its inconvenient is the seat switch, and the reason for that is that I have some steep terrain and if I where to roll over I sure dont want those blades spinning. That's what I call common since safety. So if you are a shop teacher keep preaching safety first. Then when you get into the real world with real problems lets see what you do.
....

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cutter
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2002-05-17          38735

I guess anything the Ralph Nader types want put on machines to make them stupid proof is automatically called a safety feature because people like him say that is what they are. It is unfortunate we all have to suffer with the added cost/inconvenience built into products because they have to try to make them compatible with the lowest IQ'd consumer they feel might attempt use. I will protest by continuing to cut the do not remove under penalty of law tags from my mattress. ....

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Peters
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2002-05-17          38738

Ok! OK! Enough you force me to use logic. Let's see.
Dr. David Susuki a UBC scientist, televison host and acquaintance states, "That given a test on technology Lawyers and small businessmen score dead last". Essentially they are technically illiterate.
We elect to to public office, mostly small business men and lawyers.
Therefore I would proposed that the dumby they are trying to save, is probably the lawyer on the lawnmower.
Of course all of this Susuki inspired logic seemed like fiction to me until I watched a show on the Whitehouse and the first Lawyer Lady, explained that she needed to call the electrician every time she needed to set a clock or the VCR as the instructions were greek to her. ....

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RISKY WATERS
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2002-05-17          38739

art; after rereading your post ,i have a few more thoughts.first you are a dealer, for you to endorse defeatng a safety device is like my doctor saying its alright to smoke .now as for different owners ,people do not rid themselves of their cadets until there is no life left in them.unless they trade it in for an advance model in witch case the dealer should check that before resale.also if one is selling thier mower to the public at large they should put the safety devices to its former positions ....

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TomG
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2002-05-18          38743

I also know that preaching the safety message is a tough job. But bear with me just a bit. Trouble is that accidents fortunately are rare events. Psychologically most people treat them as if they aren't real. It's like living in California. Practically speaking, the quakes aren't real. Never the less, thousands of fatalities and disabling accidents occur annually in the construction industry alone. I worked in a hospital that received a lot of accident trauma, so accidents are a little more real to me. They happen and it's difficult to criticize attempts to design equipment to minimize them. It’s also difficult to mop floors around a quadriplegic’s bed and realize that this young person world is mostly going to be that bed forever.

Something to understand about equipment accidents is that most operators don't think about the work. No amount of training to think about things is effective. There is a cadence and a routine to equipment operation. You get into it and you just do the work without analyzing it. In effect operators program themselves to perform routines.

The only trouble is that people aren't like computers, which can perform exactly the same sequences indefinitely. Even with the best training, every now and then the brain just changes the program around a bit. An accident happens and after the fact somebody might say 'That was really stupid, why would anybody do that?' The answer is that it wasn't stupid at all because no thought is involved. You actually can't operate equipment while thinking about it, and without thinking about it there's no way to avoid accidents. It's like California quakes. Live there long enough and it will happen.

Good lord! A couple of weeks ago I thought my 4wd went out. I engaged it three or four times and watched only one real wheel spinning before realizing I was engaging the PTO. An accident just waiting to happen. Be good to cut the safety folks some slack.
....

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Art White
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2002-05-18          38745

As a dealer or as a individual I do not recommend disconnecting any safety devises. I to have options and I just make sure that when selling I tell the people up front which tractor does what. Some people do not like safety switches nor feel they want to deal with them. Some makes have them and some do not, I just alert the buyer to them before the purchase. ....

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Art White
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2002-05-18          38746

As a dealer or as a individual I do not recommend disconnecting any safety devises. I to have options and I just make sure that when selling I tell the people up front which tractor does what. Some people do not like safety switches nor feel they want to deal with them. Some makes have them and some do not, I just alert the buyer to them before the purchase. ....

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cutter
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2002-05-18          38748

Again Tom, there is a difference between a "safety feature" and a nuisance placed there to avoid a law suit. I don't think anyone here is debating the fact that a life saving device should be eliminated. Common sense and safe operating practices will prevent far more accidents than the sticker on the new iron that tells you to remove your clothes before ironing them. I think perhaps an IQ and mechinical appitude test should be given to obtain your drivers liscense. Talk about accidents waiting to happen, my years in the fire department seeing bodies laying in the road made me a much more cautious driver. I realized from an early age (20 when I helped remove the first body) that it was the other driver I needed to watch out for. Same is true with this safety feature thing except it is the government or manufacturer trying to watch out for every possible senerio and apply a fix to it before it happens. If we applied this same logic to the highway, nobody would be allowed to drive econo-boxes or the Gore-mobile! ....

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TomG
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2002-05-19          38774

Tough issues I know. I know it’s long and doesn’t have much to do with tractors. Might be interesting reading for some though.

I certainly recognize the aggravation factor and also recognize that a tractor loaded up with a bunch of safety devices isn't very useful. So, what to do? Anybody can go out and buy a tractor that has be somewhat dangerous to be useful. Owners may have absolutely no experience, but many people wouldn’t favour mandatory training and licensing for tractor owners.

The trouble is that it's well enough to say that people should have basic intelligence and also accept individual responsibility for their actions--that's not what happens though. Nobody ever figures that they're going to end up disabled and requiring institutional care for the rest of their lives. When that happens people show up at the courts. Few individuals or families could pay the medical bills and there's no requirement for persons to carry disability insurance. Many people wouldn’t favour that requirement either. So what to do, just wheel somebody out of the court and leave them sitting on the sidewalk?

Under N.A. law damages are awarded on the ability to pay. That is the basis for 'shotgun litigation.' Anybody or organization with the slightest involvement is sued with the hope of finding somebody with money that can be faulted even if the fault seems nonsensical. In such cases people who have behaved really stupidly but have no money walk and somebody with a lot of money (but maybe didn't design the right safety decal) pays. That's what manufacturers are protecting themselves against. Of course, they wouldn't have so many problems if they didn't have so much money.

It may not seem fair but that's the way it works. Without some mechanism there'd be helpless people who are simply abandoned. Of course, all that could be changed by legislation that overrides legal precedent (no fault auto insurance is an example). Federally funded disability insurance also would change things. Many people wouldn't want these things either. Anyway, it's a tough call and the courts are faced with real and tragic situations that have to be dealt with somehow, and legal precedent is the only tool they have. ....

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cutter
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2002-05-19          38777

You are of course 100% correct Tom. What you said in your third paragraph is indeed the answer, personal responsibility. Another federal program would breed a whole new generation of "injured" and create a whole new bureacuracy, none of us here can afford to pay for that. ....

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Peters
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2002-05-19          38780

Tom;
I agree with most of what you say, except I think the suing is primarily an American response not an NA response. Looking for work lawyers in the US are willing to try any suit to ring the cash register. The other day I had class action suit papers come in the mail, some lawyers had determine that the KY tax on autos purchased out of state and registered in KY was illegal. They had gone throught the state records and seen the tax I had paid on a car and assumed it fell under this cat. which it did not. This is maybe the third such action I have had papers for.

....

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Dealer
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2002-07-24          40648

The biggest problem I see is where you bought the mower,Lowes. They are not where you buy Cub Cadet mowers. Where is your service or parts going to come from? Dealers sell the same mower for the same price and most of the time with better financing, Lowes 20% plus credit card (now that's a real bargin) If your dealer doesn't sell the mower then how does he get money to put parts on his shelf to you to have when you need them. I guess you think MTD will send him free parts just to lay on his shelf for you. The knife is still in my back(I sell Cub Cadet tractors).Does Cub really care if you have a dealer to give you free advice or support? NO they only want to sell tractors. Their factory support is the worst second to none. They have blocked the phone numbers that dealers use and are now password protected so the dealer can't even give it to the customer. I asked a service rep to talk to a customer of mine and he said he would not and could not(company policy). You dealer will not sell Cub's if they only get the crumbs, so then where will you go to get parts, Lowes.HA HA. ....

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Ted@Abbeywoods, LLC
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2002-07-24          40651

This seems to bear out what I wrote in response to the CC 7275 thread. MTD is so big, and spread so thin, with so many products that they really couldn't give good service even if they wanted to - which I firmly believe they don't. They are understaffed, and their people are under-educated, and having just one woman to cover troubleshooting for every eastern state really doesn't seem like a quality business plan. I'm told by my friends that they only have one diesel "expert" in the CC tech services "group." I see the results of MTD's policy every time I visit my friend's dealership, my friends just shake their heads and say, "you won't believe what they've gone and done...!" MTD / CC just seem to get worse as time goes on, oblivious to the grief they cause - I think the policy is; "we've got their money, now let's get someone elses." Too bad because their big tractors are really quite good. So just how is a true dealership to survive? Not with their life's blood being sold with sheet rock and decking screws by disinterested young people who can hardly wait for the "marks" to go away. Lowes, yeah, now they really know a lot about tractors, just about as much as I know about brain surgery. MTD needs to put their house in order or join ENRON. ....

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