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Spreading Seed on an existing pasture

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SOB1
Join Date: Jul 2003
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2002-03-31          36929

Hi folks... I'm about to start to overseed an existing pasture. There are some bare spots and the level of the grass is really short due to heavy grazing last year. I was gonna take my york rake and drag the entire field to kinda thatch and scuff things up some.I'll undoubtadely rip up some existing tufts of green stuff. Then I was gonna broadcast some pasture mix... do i need to go over it again with the rake, or just pray for some rain....Any suggestions?? Thanks!

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Stan
Join Date: Feb 2002
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2002-03-31          36933

I'd suggest raking again after the seed - I usually run my flexible tine harrow over the pasture after seeding.

Where are you located - if it is still getting down below freezing at night, you can broadcast the seed and it will work itself in really well. It won't germinate as quickly, and you might lose a slightly higher %, but you do get a head start, and sometimes its in the ground better before the first big rains. ....

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GREENJEANS
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2002-04-01          36948

before any seeding, make sure you get the soil tested. The correct soil P.H. is very important when establishing grasses and legumes. a soil Ph of at least 5.5 is the minimum. I have always has better luck when tests results were above 6.0. Boron or other trace elements may be needed. But beware of a soil test for copper. the tests currently used for copper are outdated and inaccurate and will almost always show a copper deficiencey. tissue tests are the only way to get handle on copper.

My experience with overseeding or even interseeeding has always been about as good as a roll of the dice. There is a phenomonon called autotoxicicty that the grass that was already established the year before causes.

Consult a local seed dealer or an agriculture extension agent in your area before buying seed.

Like stan mentioned..maybe you can just broadcast it over tye top..depending on location.

The old rule of thumb my grandad passed down was. "sew it on the last snow" (you may have to do this more than once, if you cannot guess when the last snow is LOL). You also need a horse. he always said "10 seeds to a hoofprint". I have no Idea where he got the horse hooves calibrated. (blacksmith? ferriure??)

Good luck ....

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SOB1
Join Date: Jul 2003
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2002-04-02          36986

10 seeds to a hoofprint??? Yikes!!! I guess we're not gonna have any more snow, so b4 the rains I'd like to get something growing. If i get rid of all the thatch and dead grass, I'm gonna give it a try. Its starting to green up everyday , so hopefully the new seed will just fill in the bare spots... but at $ 100/80lb bag it better be worth it...lol ....

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Stan
Join Date: Feb 2002
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2002-04-02          36988

greejeans -

OK - what is the standard horse: probably a big draft animal no doubt. Of course, all I've got is Quarter Horse, Lippizan, Tennessee Walker, Paint, Pinto, and Leopard App., so I'll never get the seed right. ....

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TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002
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2002-04-03          36997

That would be 2.5 seeds per print I guess for at least one of them. I suppose it would be variable if the walker wasn't.

So, the engraving on a Canadian 25-cent coin that commemorated the RCMP Musical Ride was so good that most people could tell what kind of horse was on the coin. Don't suppose I need to say exactly Yuk Yuk Yuk.

Six inches of snow fell last night and it's still coming down. Looking outside and reading about greening grass here is mixing my mind. My only excuse I guess. Hope this nonsense gets a few chuckles though.
....

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TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002
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2002-04-03          37001

Somehow I associate over-seeding with rollers. I think the idea is to press seeds into the ground and maybe scuff a bit of cover over them, which maybe makes better germination in dry areas. Other people probably know if rolling a pasture as part of over-seeding would be a good to do.

What I wanted to say is that 3ph rollers do exist, and that Roger mentioned making one by putting pipe through the centre of an old gas hot-water heater and filling it with concrete. Roger's idea seems like a good cheapy way to make a roller, but I wouldn't expect most 3ph's to lift something like that.

Sometimes what works just can’t be figured. A couple of years ago I gently suggested that I didn't think my wife wouldn’t get much grass just throwing seed over an area of dozer compacted fill and top-soil. She didn't scratch up the surface or anything--I guess I walked and scuffed a bit.

It was during August and the soil was bare except for some lamb's quarters that came along with the top-soil and sprouted. 'Why not wait till the middle of September' says I. Fortunately mine was a gentle suggestion, because she sure got grass. Still don't know why. I figured that even if birds didn't eat it and some sprouted then the first hot spell would kill any seedlings.
....

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Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999
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2002-04-03          37003

For my two cents worth (1.25 cents American) the theory of "Sew it on the last snow.." was a primative, but excellent way to accomplish all the requirements of good germination. The snow would moisten the seed, when it melted down to the earth it would be partially covered in the mud, and the warm spring sun on the dark mud would cause enough warmth for germination to occur while there was (hopefully) still enough moisture in the ground to allow the success of the seedlings.

As for the 'modern' method, the easiest (read least labour and / or time) way we have found is to use a broadcast spreader to spread the seed on the prepped soil. We then fill the 3pth fertilizer spreader (same one we use for seeding) with sawdust and go back over the same area and lay down a good covering of it on top of the seeds. This will help hold moisture, prevent erosion, and discourage all but the most determined birds from feasting. Best of luck. ....

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SOB1
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2002-04-03          37022

Wow Murf.. thts a good idea with the saw dust....I guess it will just dissapate after a while too??? Or should i just spread the seed,THEN run the rake over it? Or will I just end up with a big pile of seeds and dirt?? ....

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Peters
Join Date: Feb 2002
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2002-04-03          37031

SOB
1) I pull the flex harrow with tines in aggressive mode behind the spreader.
2) My neighbour uses the seed drill over the grass in the fall to plant rye grass. I would assume this would work also with any seed.
3) lower spread ratios are difficult to achieve especially with fine seed like Bahai. The trick there is to mix with fine silica sand and then spread. ....

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TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002
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2002-04-04          37039


No expertise here, but I think a bunch of sawdust can be used along with some nitrogen fertilizer. Sawdust sometimes is used to improve soils. I recall that my dad used a bunch of it when we moved to a new sub-division where the developer just spread basement excavations on top of the lots. It was an aggravation trying to get things to grow for a few years, and all the while knowing that there was very good soil just below tiller level.

Fertilizer should be added to sawdust or chipper/shredder material that hasn't been composted first, because it consumer rather than releases nitrogen. However, uncomposted material does add organic material to the soil and improve moisture retention, which are good things for seedlings. I don’t know if there’s a PH issue with some types of sawdust.
....

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greenjeans
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2002-04-04          37045

TomG,

FYI. To answer your Ph question when useng sawdust.

Yes there is, no, there isn't. Confused yet? let me explain.

Any organic matter that is breaking down adds nitrogen to the soil. Sawdust is no different, and yes some types of sawdust break down faster than others. The size of the dust particals makes a difference too. the finer it is the faster it breaks down.

However...........all this takes years...at least a couple years. And by then, your grass plants have grown roots deeper than the soil that is effected by the sawdust. So even if the Ph was changed because of the sawdust, it matters little to establishing grasses and legumes. I think sawdust is a great idea when straw is not available.

While we are on he subject, let me explain some things about proper ph levels, and how lime works.

A ph level too low means your soil is acidic. Lime is a base on the Ph scale. Nitrogen, or nitrates, to be more specific are acidic. This is why high organic matter soils muck, for example, is almost always acidic and needs limeing more often than say a sandy or clay loam.

The acidic particals of soil have the opposite electric charge than lime..Kinda like a magnet. For example lets say your soil has a positive charge. and lime has a negative charge.

The two opposites attract. and soil Ph is nutralized. The finer the lime, the sooner this can take place. Courser lime takes longer. A good lime has both fine particals,(for imidiate nutralization)and course particals that will be breaking down over the next few years so you do not have to lime every year.

Lime is not readily leachable with water, so in order to get lime mixed in with soil below the top of the ground, you have to mix the lime with the soil (tillage). The deeper you till, the more lime it will take. so tilling deeper than the rootzone of the types of plants you intend to seed is a waste of time and money.

Sorry to bore you with all this, but Grass and legume seed is expensive. It is also a fickle plant. You can do everything correctly and mother nature will make you look stupid, you can also do everythin wrong, and if she favors you, you will have the best stand of grass in the county, But if your soil Ph is too low, there is nothing she can do for you. You have to do that yourself.
....

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TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002
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2002-04-05          37069

Pretty good information. I'll make an 'I don't know but always thought' comment.

I've heard that for a good composting pile there should be material to provide both carbon and nitrogen sources. Instructions with composting barrels describe this as green and brown material. The impression I have is that the initial stages of composting consume nitrogen, which is then released back to the soil as organic material in the compost breaks down.

The idea is that composting consumers nitrogen from the soil initially if an adequate nitrogen source isn't available in the compost. I've heard people say that their gardens didn't do too well for a couple years after adding a lot of uncomposted material unless nitrogen fertilizer was applied.

I guess the question is whether adding a bit sawdust over the ground qualifies as composting, or whether I've got the composting idea not quite right.

Regarding soil and legumes: We have a large stand of lupines in our yard that we just let go wild (lupines are related to peas and clover). The flowers are pretty spectacular, and we've heard that local botanists have come to look at them. We've given away plants to a few people for transplanting and seed to quite a few people. Nobody else can get them to grow. We do nothing and the patch expands every year. I understand that soil pH is important for many plants, but I've also heard about inoculating soil for legumes. I've never known what inoculating the soil means.
....

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Peters
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 3034 Northern AL
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2002-04-05          37080

Greenjeans et al.
The primer on the soils correct in terms of remediation but your understanding of PH is not correct.
Water naturally separates into protons H+ and hydroxide 0H-. Water and the negative and positive ions are in equalibrium, water separates to form ions and recombines to for water. The natural concentration of the water is 7.5 pH. The pH is a log scale and inversed a pH of 6.5 is 10 times the strength of 7.5.
Charges are always balanced. You always have an ion pair. Addition of lime (CaCO3)adds free C03- to the system, this breaks down to form CO2 and 0-2 which rapidly combines with a proton to form 0H-. The addition of the lime adds free hydroxide to the system and makes the oil more basic or with a higher pH.
There is a major difference between grasses and ligumes in terms of the nitrogen cycle (see URL). Liqumes take nirogen from the air and fix the nitrogen in the soil. This fact is used in good crop rotation.
Up north in new soils people often planted clover with the grass to improve the soils nitogen content. ....


Link:   Nitrogen cycle

 
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Charlie Iliff
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2002-04-05          37087

Peters:
Isn't the pH of distilled water 7?
My recollection from chemistry courses years back is that the acidic or basic character of the solution isn't determined by water, which remains as H2O, but by other things, such as HCl giving you H+, or NaOH, giving you OH-.
Haven't looked at it recently, though. ....

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Peters
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2002-04-05          37097

Charlie;
The pH of deionized water is 7, but I do not apply deionized water on my grass nor can I drink deionized water as it will leach out the minerals in my body. Normal water is 7.5.
Calculation of pH normally includes the disassociation of water molecule. What is the pH of solid NaOH? The measurement and pH values has no meaning unless there are free hydrogen ions.
Most acid pH measurements are in solution and are meaningless in solid or pure state.
pH calculations from acid or base addition are normally simplified in school. The correct method adjusts using the dissociation constant of water to determine the true pH. ....

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GREENJEANS
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2002-04-05          37098

athanks peters for clearing things up a bit. My knowledge is all from many years expeirience and reading. My family needed a farmer when college was an option for me, so any insight from those who know is appriciated.

youare right about legumes and grasses. they are different. But the reaction of young plants to low Ph levels in the soil are usually the same.

i am a big proponenent of soil testing, backed by twenty years expeirience in the field (literaly). And I you are also right about the lime/water thing. But you didnt take in acount the time factor. The No-till farmers in my area are starting to find this part out. Now they are starting to till after appliying lime. It just does not move through the soil fast enough to do any good in the rootzone. When seeding grasses and legumes, the seed depth is very shallow. and the application of lime on top makes the ph much too high when seed is planted at 1/8th inch or less. So some fast mixing is called for.
But after 20 years . I can still say these seeds are funny creatures, I have done everything wrong and the stand was great jsut as many times as I have done everything right and had a poor stand. But I have never had luck sewwing when soil ph was too low.

....

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Charlie Iliff
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2002-04-05          37100

Peters:
Does the dissociation/ionization of the water itself move the pH number, or is it a finction of some inevitable contamination with something that causes the .5 move in the pH? I'm not disagreeing, I just hadn't heard before of water at anyting other than 7. ....

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Peters
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2002-04-05          37102

The pH of pure deionized water is 7, but pure water without ions of some sort in it exists only in a lab. To make pure water is not easy and cost real dollars.
Deionized water is corrosive and therefore will pick up ions from almost any material. Once purified you must handle the water correctly to keep it clean. Even glass can contaminate the water.
Addition of ions to the water changes the pH. The pH is the concentration of the free protons in the water. The system is at equilibrium in water. Water is disassociating and combining at the same rate. The addition of other ions shifts the equilibrium point and reduces the number of free protons in the water.
Your blood is 7.4 pH if you drink water at 7 then you will extract the potassium and other ions from your body and blood. ....

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