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sumfir
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 7 Indiana
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2005-06-02          111887


Buying my first tractor with a 72" finish mower. Since i am new and ignorant to anything bigger than a riding mower, I wanted to seek additional input. Set to take delivery on a Kioti CK30 gear tractor (25 PTO HP), however the dealer believes that I can mow 5 flat acres just fine with the CK25 (20 PTO HP). He showed me the spec sheet on the Kioti mower and for a 72" mower it states that 20HP is with in the range. Money is tight for me, so I am intersted in a smaller unit if it will work. (just in case your thinking the dealer wants to move the smaller tractor, he has more of the CK30 in stock so I dont think that is it)

Now not knowing anything tractor and mowing with anything that had a gear case i would say no way with a lawn tractor. Damp grass slows and bogs mowing. Speed is another factor. I dont want to crawl around the yard. That is why I think the bigger tractor would be better.

Suggestions Please!


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greg_g
Join Date: Jan 2004
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2005-06-03          111894

I had a 24hp Yanmar that had enough power for me to use the 60" finish mower as a light duty bush hog; (up to) 12" grass/weeds, 1" saplings, etc. It could have easily handled a 72". My 25hp Jinmas spun a 60" bushhog, easily tackling young trees up to 2". It too could easily have handled a 72" finish mower.

Both had ~20 PTO hp. I'd say your Kioti dealer knows what he's talking about

//greg// ....

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Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999
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2005-06-03          111895

Generally speaking, you need about 5hp per foot of mower.

That however is so that you are not running at the very edge of it's capabilities and that you can handle a range of conditions, hills, heavy grass, etc.

If you are cutting flat land with a finish mower only, i.e. no bush-hogging 3' high stuff, then I would think you will be OK with a 72" mower on a 20hp machine.

IMHO however, I think you will be happier with a slightly larger, good used machine instead.

Tractors are like boats, no matter how big a unit you buy, you're soon thinking you should have gotten one just a little bigger.

Best of luck. ....

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sumfir
Join Date: Apr 2005
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2005-06-03          111908

Thanks Murf!

I knew there had to be a simple rule of thumb out there. Now is that Tractor or PTO HP. If it is tractor HP then I was right to think bigger. If that is PTO HP then the CK 30 is a little light.

Thanks ....

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greg_g
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2005-06-03          111910

I'm pretty sure Murf's rule of thumb relates more to rotary cutters than to finish mowers. Any tractor can efficiently handle a larger finish mower than it can a rotary cutter, by at least a foot.
Don't try to over-analyze this. By Murf's rule, 25 tractor hp can handle a 5 foot rotary cutter. By consensus (and through experience) it can also handle a 72" finish mower.

//greg// ....

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Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999
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2005-06-03          111911

Any time you are talking about implement requirements the figures stated are always PTO hp available to drive it. Some manufacturers though will tell you the size of TRACTOR required for a given piece, in that case they are talking engine hp.

Bear in mind also, manufacturers published hp figures are notoriously, err, umm, well, rather 'optimistic', to put it politely. In fact they are often, if you check the fine print, hypothetical figures calculated by their engineers. Even if they are genuinely measured, they still are often exclusive of things like hydraulic or power steering pumps, and done on a test bench, NOT in the real world.

If a tractor is rated at 20hp at the PTO, that is with the engine producing the full 25hp it is rated for. If you are, for example, going up a steep hill, you might be getting significantly less at the PTO than the rated power.

Best of luck. ....

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DennisCTB
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2005-06-03          111912

I think you might be missing the bigger issue with your purchase, that being with a gear machine you do not have a "live PTO", in my opinion this is a must for finish mowing applications. ....

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greg_g
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2005-06-03          111913

HUH?

//greg// ....

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bmlekki
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2005-06-03          111914

As Dennis was saying, you'll want a two stage clutch. A two stage clutch will clutch the drive gears, half way depressed, and fully depressed will the clutch the PTO. This is very helpful then mowing / snow blowing. The 2 Stages will keep you from having to stop the implement, when shifting from forward to reverse. Saves a lot of time.
I think if you get a 4x4 gear they come with the two stage. {I know this is true with the deeres.}
Good Luck!
....

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greg_g
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2005-06-03          111915

Oh. I get it. The CK25 has a 2 stage clutch/live PTO, whereas the CK20 does not. Is that your point? If so, I agree wholeheartedly. Get the CK25

//greg// ....

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DennisCTB
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2005-06-03          111920

Sumfir,

If you are as new to compacts as you say, I would make sure your try out the Hydro Trans before you buy. Hydro has live PTO so you can change directions without clutching. Hydro Trans also allows you to have infinite speed control for mowing and snowblowing applications, this really helps, obstacle in the way ease off go as slow as you want, big snow bank creep through it. ....

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sumfir
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 7 Indiana
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2005-06-03          111926

Thanks for the feed back everyone! I think I am safer with the CK30. I am crying over $1,500 bucks, so I think I better stay safe then frugal in this occasion..

DennisCTB
This unit does have a live PTO. However I dont care for HST (Auto). My reasons - HST are more expensive; Friend of the family works on Kubota - Deer -New Holland tractors and said stay away from HST because they rob more power than stated in literature plus he has rarely seen a gear fail. Clutches training are the big things in gear tractors. Gear limits users (kids); Gear forces me to pay closer attention....(no day time dreaming)

Greg G
The debate was to save money and go with a CK25 instead of take delivery of the CK30 that I think I need. The dealer feels that CK25 could pull the 72" finsh mower on my flat 5-6 acres just fine, and the CK30 is not necessary.

Murf
The literature for the mower says I need the bigger tractor- but the spec sheet says I can use the smaller tractor!! I looked at a bunch of other mowers and they all point to bigger PTO HP. EVen the Woods says I need more than 30 HP... But if I read you right, manufactures spec HP to compensate for varied terrains. Since I am mostly flat their "ratings" can be interpreted differently! ....

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DK35vince
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2005-06-03          111929

If you feel you want and/or need the 30 thats what you should get.
Better than regrets later wishing you had went with the 30.
My opinion ....

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JAZAK5
Join Date: Jul 2003
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2005-06-03          111933

is this tractor just for mowing?
save some green and by a 72 inch zero turn for half the money !!!
but if your have a tractor in your mind then get 30 hp no matter what brand this is a compact standard
not to throw a monkey wrench in,rear discharge mowers use less hp than side discharge ones so compare apples to apples ....

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sumfir
Join Date: Apr 2005
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2005-06-07          112052

JAZAK5

Mowing is just the major part. Clearing brush, moving timber, fence work, lane maintenance, removing rubbish pile that people have left on property over years & snow removal will be the other chores. My lane is 1500 feet so my next issue is will a FEL be enough to clean the snow? We will leave that for another post in the fall... ....

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Art White
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2005-06-08          112064

For mowing it is critical to stay under 100lbs per horsepower preferably under 90lbs. Loader work often requires 120lbs per horsepower or more. You would do well to figure what is most important to you in the log run for the best machine. ....

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Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999
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2005-06-08          112070

Here's the way I see it now that I have a little more info. on what you want to do with the machine.

Grass - it will do the job, but just. As was mentioned already, for purely grass cutting, get a pure grass cutter. It's a popular misconception that bush-hogging takes more power than cutting a lawn. In reality it's about the same, if the grass is lush & healthy maybe even harder to cut the lawn. When grass grows tall it becomes thin and spindly, you cut it way down near the ground where it is the easiest, below the leafy part. When you cut a lawn you are always cutting the thickest, leafiest part. It is also the wetest and heaviest. It tends to clump up in the deck further loading the cutter.

Chores - again, it will do the job, but again, just barely.

Snow - the loader will do the job, but you won't win any races. Forget about a blower, you don't have enough machine for that. A blade maybe, but again, it's going to be marginal.

All in all, it will do the job. But don't expect to be done in any short time.

Best of luck. ....

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sumfir
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 7 Indiana
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2005-06-08          112090

Art White,

I get the tractor weight to HP for the loader work. I see that as an excellent rule of thumb... Since the CK25 and CK30 tractor is the same excecpt for engine output either would handle fairly well in loader work. However the heavier weight of the tractor 3500lbs would dictate more HP to mow at an optimum level... I think you are looking at this as the big picture, LONGEVITY. I can power the 72" mower with either tractor, however based on weight of tractor, you could be working that tractor harder and dont realize it. Using all the ponies to accomplish a task rather than having some in reserve, runs the tractor a little harder, burns more fuel, and ultimately will lead to premature failure..

I get it, Thanks alot.... ....

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DennisCTB
Join Date: Nov 1998
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2005-06-08          112091

3500 pounds is alot of weight for finish mowing, but you can counter that with the right tires. I think Art is also saying that for mowing use, less weight is a good thing not bad.

My tractor weighs 1350 pounds add another 250 for the MMM and it comes in at 1600 pounds. I have to be careful to mow only when completely dry. Watch my turns carefully, and even with turfs I leave some marks occasionally where I inadvertently turn too quickly or too sharp, and I have the HST so I can really modulate the speed precisely for turns, I think with a gear drive you will make more tears in the turf if that matters. In my view the HST makes the tractor with MMM more like a zero radius mower.

Need some clarification on Murfs comment that forget the blower on the CK30. I have found that the front blower on my B7610 is fantastic, does a nice neat job cleans right down to the pavement quickly.

In terms of using a loader to clear a drive 1500 feet long, sure it could be used, but it is not the optimal tool. Snow piles up in front of it, gets heavy, if you have nice lawn next to it you will be ripping it up by accident more than you might like, it is a excavation tool afterall. If the snow is deep you will be doing alot of backing up and forward. If you like drive over hard packed snow this may be just fine, as you said it is flat where you are. I have slopes to deal with so I have to keep it clean to the pavement at all times.

Good Luck!

....

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Chief
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2005-06-08          112095

I have the Deere 4410 with a Deere 72" 7 Iron MMM. The 4410 is 35 hp with about 28 to 29 at the pto. In heavier grass like I am now cutting (definitely NOT the norm) it takes every bit of that pto hp. to run the MMM. The eHydro REALLY makes operation VERY instinctive and user friendly although I have my doubts about how well the eHydro will hold up over a 20 year period which is the VERY minimum I would expect a tractor such as this to last. The eHydro is a shoe in for snow blowing. You gotta go with what the budget can accomodate but if you can swing it; I would strongly suggest the CK30 or CK30HST. 30 hp is a real nice size. ....

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yooperpete
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2005-06-09          112126

If you are strapped for cash, why not wait several weeks till the grass gets about the longest you ever plan to let it get or even now if it hasn't gotten cut yet. If the Kioti dealer knows he is going to get a sale in either case, he should let you use it (the smaller one) for an hour or two. That should tell you for sure!! If it works, you've saved money, the dealer lets her set there and you go back with the VIN number and buy it. If it ain't, it goes back and you get the bigger of the two. You then know for sure.

By definition of a finish mower, you should not expect it to be cutting 1 to 3 foot tall grass. Finish mowers have less clearance inside between the blade and the deck housing and they are prone to clogging up if you are doing so much at one time.

When you mow, you shouldn't be cutting wet grass and you shouldn't be mowing at 15 MPH! That is, if you are trying to do a good job and protecting your investment (ie tractor and deck).

If you have the money, a hydro is the way to go. You have infinite speeds for mowing at just the right speed. You can slow for corners, bumps and when mowing around obstacles or when taller, thicker grass is ahead. You can speed up if shorter less grass is in front of you. With loader work, you can go forward and back with your foot pedal while the left hand is steering and the right is operating your joystick. If you are hitting a hard pack of stone with loader work you can take your foot off of the pedal and downshift from medium/high to low range for getting a bucketfull. As you are backing out or lifting the bucket with your left hand you can change ranges again so you can get to where your dropping it off fast.

If you are doing snow on a 1500ft long driveway. Suggest either a rear snow blower again if you have the money. If you use a rear blade tilted at about 15 degree angle and use shoes on the blade set up above the stone about 2 inches. You can rapidly grade the majority of snow away in several passes back and forth in reverse. You then can go forward with the loader bucket just slightly tilted to pickup the smaller amounts. It will packup ahead of the bucket and you can then turn out every 300 feet or so and dump it. Getting the correct pitch of tilt is something you learn. You can see while you are driving by standing up and running the hydro with your right foot. If you go over it several times you will pack the snow which you want since by leaving a slight snowpack on top you won't pickup all of the stones. By putting a pipe on the cutting edge as Murf has posted also helps. I generally back drag with the loader on the final passes back and forth to make a clean appearance.

With real big snowfalls the loader work is slow and you may not be able to use the rear blade to take all of it at one time.

I like about a 2700-3200 lb bare tractor weight. It is a compromise for good mowing and decent loader work. You can put decent rear ballast (or backblade) on for increasing your weight. I like turf tires since in my opinion they are optimum for mowing and snow removal but a compromise for a single bottom plow and some loader work. In any case you want a tractor with big, wide front tires with sturdy sidewalls (ply rating).

If you are inclined to go with the bigger tractor and can handle the payments, do it by all means!! ....

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DennisCTB
Join Date: Nov 1998
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2005-06-09          112128

Yooper,

Ditto to all of the above, particularly on the Hyrdro. I was just explaining this to my wife on the way home from lunch. Hmmmmmmm! I wonder why she fell asleep in the car and then when we got home slept on the couch. Could not have been the HST versus Gear talk I had with her! ;-)

I have over 15000 square feet of drive. I have the front loader, front blower, rear grader blade. I have never longed to put the loader on when I use the Front Blower with the rear grader on.

I find the the rear grader blade is useful for scraping any packed snow on the paved drive, or for pushing slush around that would clog the blower. But using the grader blade as the primary device for deep wet snow is abolutely no fun at all. The front blower rear scraper combo is the tool of choice in my humble opinion. However if you have horses (not sure if you said that or not) and need to switch back and forth to put the loader on you will have forget the front blower option, takes too long to do frequently.

I obsessed over whether I could use the loader scraper combo as I wanted to be as frugal as possible, and I am so glad I sprang for the front blower. A loader can be used but it just is not a snow based tool, it is going to be a nuisance, unless you enjoy packing the snow down on a country lane that is flat as the poster indicated, then you have to come back with sand and gravel for traction, extra work I want to avoid. I defintely would never get a rear blower with anything more than 150 feet long, unless you have that horse issue for the loader, than maybe the stiff neck and steering errors that will happen are a must. ....

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yooperpete
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2005-06-09          112129

Dennis,I totally agree that a front snow blower is the best. Most of us, however, have to compromise due to their cost. A rear snow blower is much less expensive and definitely better than none. Learning how to drive backwards and the use of rear view mirrors is the key.

By the way, NOW is an excellent time to buy a snowblower. Many dealerships have one left over from last year. They want to get rid of this inventory and wrapping it in with the tractor purchase is easy and only a few bucks per month more. ....

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Murf
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2005-06-09          112130

I think my comment about the snowblower was misunderstood.

A CK25 would need a minimum of a 60" blower in order to clear it's own wheel tracks. This doesn't change whether the blower is front or rear mounted.

I don't think you (or the PTO clutch) would get very far with a 60" blower on a 20 PTO hp machine.

Best of luck. ....

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sumfir
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 7 Indiana
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2005-06-09          112133


Thanks to all who provided input. I bought the CK30...with FEL and 72" mower. Yes its gear and not a hydro.. Keeps people off it..... Plus I can replace a clutch. Dealer let me mow his own tall wet grass. Gee thanks! Took CK25 longer to recover rpm on hill when mowing. Made up mind quickly. As far as snow removal, like I said I will tackle that another day.

When I say 1500 ft of dive. Its not square feet. its Linear feet. I assume that is what you meant Dennis. ....

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DennisCTB
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2005-06-09          112137

I did not mix them up, I have 15000 sq feet, which is over 1000 linear feet, and it is just my opinion that backing up alot just is not pleasurable, for me my cut off would be 150 to 200 feet in length. Hey but I am just an old guy that gets a stiff neck easily.

Good luck with your new toy or rather tool I mean! ....

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earthwrks
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2005-06-09          112146

I have no problems brush hogging with my blue TC33D hydro--I can stop with the mower still turning and use the clutch only in an emgergency---so I'm a little confused if/how a live PTO relates to non-gear type transmissions like mine??? I know there is a 2-stage clutch for the geared TC33. ....

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yooperpete
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2005-06-10          112163

Sumfir:
Congrats on your purchase! I still have the same clutch in the 1949 IH Super "C". Don't expect the need to replace clutches on yours. In 1st. gear with a loader on the front, it can still bring the front end off the ground when plowing with a two bottom moldboard plow.

The test thing for comparison sake is always the best way to go. Likewise, you know your own application and needs better than us. If you're happy, that's all that counts. ....

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JAZAK5
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2005-06-11          112218

congrats, looks like 30 hp is the bench mark
if any thing look into a angle plow for the fel/if its equiped with a quick attach system and chains ....

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sumfir
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 7 Indiana
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2005-06-13          112313

Thanks Jazak5, Yooperpete, and others

Put 4 hrs on it Saturday mowing the grass. 48" weeds was not easy. I mowed first pass with mower 18" off ground. made second pass about 10" high. Did not get the chance to make third pass. Could not get into high ranges because the mower couldnt take it. Tractor did not labor or get too high in temp. I even got it stuck in a spring that I did not know I had... 4x4 is a beautiful thing. I should of went to an 84 in mower... ....

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