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kangaroo31
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 120 Orange County, NY
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2007-12-18          149406


I have a 40HP tractor with loader, disk and a 2 bottom plow.
The land is about 16 acre black dirt. I hired a local farmer did the brush hog and dig 2 800 feet ditches.(see the attach file.) The person promise me arrage spray and to deep plow after that but nothing did. Right now is to late to spray. The land need break (20 years no farm on it, lots oof weed roots, some of them are cattail). Try my 2 bottom plow couple times. Root Wastes are big headache. Plus the land is wet, tracking is a problem too. But looks I have to do someting this year by myself.
My questions are:
1. Can I buy a middle buster breake the surface 4-5" this year and buy a rake to clean all the roots. No experience, need your suggestions?
2. If I have to spray myself, need buy a sprayer. No Idea 55gl can last how long distance? Anyone use sprayer to apply liquid fertilizer as well?

Thanks for each word your input.

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greg_g
Join Date: Jan 2004
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2007-12-18          149407


Sounds like bottom ground to me. Around here it's pretty much left for dry season grazing and maybe one cut of hay. My guess is that yours is not going to be terribly productive unless/until it's properly drained. What is your end goal for this property?

//greg// ....

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kangaroo31
Join Date: Jun 2007
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2007-12-18          149408


It is not too low, actually higher than other fields. An old river is behind it. about 5-6 feet lower. If all the ditches work, drain is not a big issue. I plan to grow vegetables on it. ....

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candoarms
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 1932 North Dakota
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2007-12-18          149410


Kangaroo31,

I see the trenches have water standing in them. Do these trenches run all the way to the river, and do they drain into the river? If so, why is there so much water standing in the trenches?

If your trenches do not extend all the way to the river, you'll need to finish that project. Drain off as much excess water as possible. During dry periods, those trenches can then be used as irrigation ditches.

Once the soil has dried quite a bit, you can then take a plow to it. Turn that sod over and allow it to dry out. That will kill most, if not all of the weeds and vegetation currently growing on it.

You'll need to use a plow with a coulter installed on it, in order to cut through the deep root mass. Without a coulter, the sod will run up over your plow and make it very difficult to work. The coulter acts much like a knife, in that it will cut the sod, allowing the plow to roll it over.

Your land looks very nice. You've done a fine job of things so far. You're coming along well, and it won't be long before that land starts making money for you.

Joel ....

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yooperpete
Join Date: Jan 2004
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2007-12-19          149419


Something doesn't look nor sound right. Cattails only grow in really wet environments like swamps and bottoms of ditches. The standing water in your ditch/trench makes me think you have either no drop (trench deeper as it nears the main drainage ditch or river) or your property is marshland.

You have marshland or swampland if you go nearly anywhere and dig a hole with a shovel about 12"-18" deep and leave it for about an hour or less and it begins to fill with water. Generally the soil is a type of sand but black in color. Usually this type of soil is too wet to grow many crops and doesn't have the correct soil incredients for planting many crops.

For proper crop growth, farmers alway tile their property to help drain off excess moisture. Tile are now placed about 50' apart. They are made of plastic tubing with little slits that the water seeps into. The tile are dug gradually deeper at they either link together meeting a main tile or go directly in a ditch. The tile are usually about 5-6" in diameter. After a big rain or early in the spring, the water coming out of them is nearly fully of water. That is helpful for not only good plant growth but that you can get equipment in and till or harvest.

Your description of the root mass that plugs up your two bottom plow doesn't make sense. I'd like to see a close-up photo of that. A 2 bottom moldboard plow should be able to plow up most any kind of root that I've seen without a problem unless there is allot sticking out of the ground which wraps around the moldboard attachment shank.

For removing large tree roots we always used a homemade 2 shank subsoiler. I still have it. It has two shanks that are about 2 x 6 of solid steel that can go into the ground up to a foot or more to ripe out roots. It is real heavy and big. The frame is a 6x6 box made of 1/2" steel The shanks are about 3 feet apart. ....

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kangaroo31
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 120 Orange County, NY
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2007-12-19          149424


Joel, the black dirt is a kind of shallow. only 2-3 feet. Under that is clay. No one can drain clay, so the ditch is about 1 feet below the clay layer, about 3.5-4 feet deep. The water you see is very shallow stay on the bottom of the ditch. But close to the exit toward the river, ditch go through a 2-300 feet forest zone, that part is need dig deeper.
I will try the plow again when the snow melt and land freeze a little bit. Do you have the link of the coulter picture? the plow come with two disk like attachs, but I am not sure they can work like a knife, they are keep moving and not that sharp.

Thanks,
....

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kangaroo31
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2007-12-19          149426


yooperpete:
Thank you point out lots of important things. This land is wet, as I mention in other post, mainly because of 2 mountain/road run-off pipes cross the land to the back river. Because all the old ditches all gone and no one take care over 20 years, the water from run-off pipes flood the part of this land all the time after heavy raining, only those spots growing cattails. That is why I have to dig ditch to reconnect the water channel.
Your right, even though is not enough, black dirt alway wet. It is very tough, especially to a rockie like me, to grow lots of vegetables on it without the the drain system like you mentioned. But I tried lots of water-like vegetable on it this fall season. Some of them growing very well in this 85%-95% wet soil and cold weather. Like Chinese Celery, 4 types Chinese Green, 2 types Korean/Janpenese Radish, and some oriental spinach/water spinach, chrysanthemum etcs at begining.
I will try the plow again and take some pictures closer. ....

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Lwayne
Join Date: Sep 2007
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2007-12-19          149429


I'm not sure that plowing is your best bet to get a good seedbed no matter what your moisture problems are. Plowing does little to tear apart the rye zones. Each furrow tends to be one long, continuous row stuck together. Not to mention plowed virgin soil is very rough to work. The rye zones cling together, making it hard to use other machinery without draging clumps of dirt. The preferred implement around here would be a chisel plow, much like a heavy duty field cultivater, that would penetrate deep enough to rip up the rye zones. But a 40 hp tractor wouldn't pull a very big one, maybe six or seven feet. It sounds like you may need a tiller. ....

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kangaroo31
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 120 Orange County, NY
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2007-12-19          149430


Lwayne
Thanks for the suggestion. I considered chisel plow before. It is expensive and I may only use it once. But I think plow can do the same work. If I can plow only one direction, the furrows can exposed to the cold weather freeze and melt couple times, become very loose next spring. Then use my disk cut couple times, finally use a rank to clean all the waste and level it. Don't know it will work or not.
Do you think those root waste will not bother a tiller? I have a work-behind mini tiller, I have to clean it all the time. No experience on big PTO tiller.
....

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candoarms
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 1932 North Dakota
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2007-12-19          149432


Kangaroo31,

A coulter is nothing more than a round disk, which mounts directly ahead of the plow blade. It turns as you go, splitting and slicing through the vegetation.

A chisel plow will work also, but they often plug up with vegetation. The weeds bend around the shanks (hair-pinning). Any implement you drag through the soil will tend to plug up with weeds, grass, vines, long roots, etc. This is why a disk is such a handy tool, especially after harvest.

The plow will work fine, but not until you get rid of some of that water. No farm implement works well in the mud. Work on that drainage problem just a bit more.

You've got more than enough good topsoil to work with. Once you get that land of yours dried out a bit, you'll find that things will go a whole lot easier for you.

Get it drained, plow it up, and then hit it with the disk. You'll see a huge improvement.

As a last resort you could attempt to use the tiller, but it's slow going, and the tiller isn't really meant to be used on any piece of land larger than an acre or two -- at most.

Joel ....

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kangaroo31
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2007-12-19          149435


Thanks, Joel. I asked local farmers, they majorly use disk, plow and blade to work with the black dirt here. But that not for virgin land. I will try that plow when dry.
Do you know that sprayer question? I remember you have a huge one.
....

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candoarms
Join Date: Mar 2007
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2007-12-19          149443


Kangaroo31,

I do have a sprayer, but it's not a big one. I purchased mine from a local farmer. (Most of my implements are well used.)

My sprayer mounts on the 3-point hitch and has three short booms. I use it around the yard, close to the garden, and next to my wife's flower garden. It's not suitable for crop use, due to the fact that it's only about 6 feet wide.

You'll need a sprayer with longer booms and a much larger tank. You should be able to mount a fairly large sprayer on your tractor. My sprayer uses an electric pump, but you'll probably need one that uses a PTO driven pump.

There are many different sprayer models to choose from. You have your choice between 3-point mounted sprayers, to pull behind types that hold a whole lot more water and chemical. Depending on how often you'd use the thing, I believe you'd do well to purchase a sprayer that mounts directly on the 3-point hitch. They're easier move, turn, and store.

Something like the one posted below will probably suit your needs. You'll also need a PTO powered pump to match up with it.

Joel ....


Link:   Northern Tool Fimco Sprayer Item # 260010

 
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candoarms
Join Date: Mar 2007
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2007-12-19          149444


Kangaroo31,

Try this link. It will take you directly to the sprayer I mentioned earlier.

There are many others to choose from. This is just one example.

Joel ....


Link:   Fimco Sprayer 3-pt Mount 11-2/3 feet

 
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kangaroo31
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 120 Orange County, NY
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2007-12-19          149445


That is the one I am looking. If you think it is fine with 14-16 acre chemical or liquid fertilizer spray, I will buy it next year. Hopefully it is big enought to finish 4000-5000 feet per tank. Thanks, Joel ....

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Lwayne
Join Date: Sep 2007
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2007-12-19          149447


Kangaroo31: That root waste you're talking about is future nutrients for your soil. Mulch is decomposed organic matter. The picture on your first post certainly didn't look like 2' - 3' weeds would plug up anything. Sure, a garden tiller won't work. Even if it's mowed first and left to dry I'd still tear up those rye zones. What's being missed here is that you have a 40 hp tractor. That won't pull machinery heavy enough to do the job you're talking about. Plowing is easy because instant results appear. But then what? A light duty disc isn't going to do much more than scratch the surface. Then it's too late to do anything else withought fighting those globs of soil strung together by weed roots. Yes, too wet is too wet! But sixteen acres isn't that big and if you can rent or hire somebody with a tractor and 20 plus foot chisel plow they could cover the whole works in two hours. After working it up a few times over a couple of weeks there'd be few remnanants of the weeds IMHO. ....

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candoarms
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 1932 North Dakota
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2007-12-19          149448


Kangaroo31,

Spraying is one of the easiest things you'll ever do on a tractor. You can travel quite fast, and cover a lot of ground in a very short amount of time.

The sprayer you're looking at will easily do the job for you. It may seem small, but it's twice as wide as your disk, and you'll be able to travel a bit faster besides. You'll be able to cover 11 acres in no time.

Joel ....

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candoarms
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2007-12-19          149449


LWayne,

I believe you're right. He could easily handle this whole project a lot easier if he'd hire the work done, but we all face a similar problem.

It's very difficult to own a tractor and not be able to sit in the seat.

Kangaroo31 purchased this piece of land and his new tractor last Fall. Not two days after getting it, he buried it up to the axles in the mud. Now he's looking to spend some time on the tractor when the wheels will actually do something other than throw mud all over him. hehehe.

I don't blame the guy for wanting to do the job himself......or at least giving it his best shot. And I think he's got a good handle on it, even if there are better ways of doing the job.

Joel ....

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Lwayne
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2007-12-19          149452


Joel: I didn't want to come accross as overbearing but this happens to be a case of "been their, done that." Except for the high water table problem, I've worked plowed virgin soil. There are apparently multiple issues Kangaroo31 has to deal with and I agree, tractor time is relaxing for the most part. I was just trying to impress upon him that a properly prepared seed bed doesn't happen without some forethought. Your update on the situation is appreciated. ....

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greg_g
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2007-12-19          149455


I'm in your corner on this one Mr Wayne. But visible standing water and mention of cat tails and stuck tractors are also shouting for attention here. I'd say that - until the drainage issue is under control - the whole rest of this particular cart remains conspicuously out front of the horse.

//greg// ....

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crunch
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2007-12-19          149460


Greg, I agree. There was a lengthy previous thread on Kangaroo's property a while ago. I commented about drainage there also. There is lots of discussion about spending more money and getting in deeper. But drainage is the biggest problem. ....

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kthompson
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2007-12-20          149473


Kangroo, first you need to stop the water draining onto your property. It may be you have the law on your side to have who ever's water it is to correct that. It needs to be intercepted before it gets into your field. However if it could be done so you have it to use when dry would be good.

Even just using your plows you can make a shallow trench that may help a great deal. If you have someone you can ask, ask about subsoiling. That may break or cut your clay to where the water can seep though it to allow the top to drain. A subsoiler is a narrow shank that is designed to plow 20 inches plus in depth to break up the subsoil for root growth and moisture and neutrient movement. A single shank subsoiler will be the most you need for your tractor if you need to do this. Warning, you need one with some protection method in case you hit that unmoveable object as the tractor will come to a sudden stop. Whether you do or not will depend on such as seat belt and speed. Shear bolts are the lowest cost method for this. You will skip maybe 2 to 4 feet between your furrow you cut (very little surface movement of dirt but some plows really do a lot of underground movement to shatter a hard pan). The distance will depend on if only needed for drainage or for root growth.

Second, have you tried varying the depth you are plowing? Sometimes a little change there can make a difference. You may be able to raise the plow some and shave the roots or get a little deeper and they roll better for you. As has been pointed out though if a mat or roots, they will remain as a mat, just plowed up. Depending on your disk you may be able to cut them up then or not. If you do roll a root mat on top of the ground try disking before it dries. Often green vegitation cuts easier then does when dried.

There use to be what was called here "new ground tillers". They are not what are called tillers today. A more proper term would be "disk plows". They worked a lot like bottom or moldboard plows which you have. However, they would cut, not tear roots and could slice any kind of root up to a tree root of a couple inches in size. Have no idea if you could find one or not, but that would handle the root mass with no problem or little problem.

I do not remeber your disk, but my success with a typical gang disk not good for this, not enough weight or aggressive enough blade angle. You may try setting your blades as a sharp angle as possible and if by change your disk will allow you to flip the rear gand on top of the front gand do so. That will give you more weight and less action and may, just may help cut the roots. If you do not want to buy anything else in implements and you have the time, you can cut a good bit with a heavy enough weight if you are willing to make slower cuts over and over normally changing the direction and the angle you are running between trips across it.

If you are able to hire someone with a large chisel plow and the roots are really thick they may end up with piles of those roots. ....

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kangaroo31
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2007-12-20          149478


crunch, greg_g,
Thanks for highlight the draining issue. It is a real problem on this land. I just no experience on how wet is wet. If black dirt is only 2-3 feet, 4 feet deep ditch is not good enough? They are 110 feet apart like other conmmercial fields here. The neighbors living aside 20 years told me, in the worst case, all the commercial fields all under the water 2 feet, this land still above the water.
I tested over 20 types of vegetables this fall on a 100x50 testing field in the middle of this land, before the ditches done, about 10+ types growing very well. If I am not going to plant any of dry land crops, how far I need to do with draining issue?
....

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kangaroo31
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2007-12-20          149480


kthompson:
Nice talk to you again. Thanks mention the chisel plow like Lwayne. I am really appreciate and think that is the simplest solution to break land and get rid most of waste to gether.
I am feel fine to hire some people help me to do it. But here, the farmers look like they don't want to do this kind of small projects. May be they think I am an ET(alian) try to do farming these days. :-)
The farmer help to brush hog 16 acres, told me only need 4 hours and finally give a 18 hours bill. That is fine, then he introduce his friend to do the ditch, time/bill are reasonable but exits toward river are high, I have to dig by my hands make them deeper in 2 days. Then, he promise me to arrange spray and plow, in two months, none of them done. Right now the time windows missed, he never answer my calls since a month ago. Don't know what gonna happen if I try to hire another person. :-(
Sorry waste your time to see my complaintion. My point is It is not easy to find the people have right machine/attachment do get the job done in right time that easy. They are very busy and can not count on them sometimes. It is a long way to go for me. I will keep to try all the methods you people suggested. So nice to talk to people here. :-)
....

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kthompson
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2007-12-20          149483


Kangaro, do not know the area but find people are about the same every where. Keep looking and asking. You will find some who laugh at you and that is fine, laugh with them (they may be right). You will find some who are not honest. But, you probably will find someone who is willing and able to help you. If your purchased your tractor locally from an established dealership go there and ask for recommendations. They know who does what better than you might think. If there is a gathering spot there such as feed mill or seed store or country store another good place for info. Now, some groups are slow to accept a new person into their group. So if they are a little cool that does not mean they are not willing to give good advice, just need time to warm up to you. It helps if you are willing to start off with ... I need your help, as you may know I am totally new to this.. Works very well.

If a person quoted 4 hours and then billed for 18, he could have bid low to get the work...he could have been that far off in being knowing how to figure what the job really was, he could have ran into problems with the land if really wet that caused he to bog or such, or he could have played you by using lower gear (ground speed) than he could have or taking a narrower path than he could have. If you know how big a cutter he had, you can do the math and have a good idea if he was honest on the time. I have rough cut a few acres that have been allowed to start regrowing trees with 45 hp and 6 ft cutter and an acre an hour would have been very good. ....

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Lwayne
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2007-12-20          149484


Kangaroo31: You seem to be between the proverbial rock and a hard space. As others have pointed out, it would be nice to get rid of the excess water. The question is if it's practical and affordable. With two to three feet of black dirt it doesn't make sense it doesn't dry out with normal precipitation. If you have a high water table I doubt that any drainage system will work very well because the water will replenish itself as fast as you drain it. It sounds like the other farmers in your area have the problem under control, but there may be unknown variables. Have you considered talking to your local county agent about some soil testing? Quite frankly, it seems that something is missing here. You need local input from a professional who can give you a first hand evaluation as to why this land is holding so much moisture. Did the man who did the brush hogging tell you why it took him 4 1/2 times longer than he estimated? Was it water issues? Did he have similar size equipment as you? The answers to these questions help you to evaluate your own needs. Who knows? you might be sitting on a gold mine if you can figure out your soil conditions and what crops grow best in it. The moisture may turn out to be a blessing in the long run. Not much grows in a desert. I wouldn't get too frustrated as you'll eventually get to the bottom of it, even if you do just a little at a time. It sounds like you're on the right track already by testing out which crops grow the best there. Good luck! ....

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kangaroo31
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2007-12-20          149495


kthompson,Lwayne
When the time he brush hogging, it is very dry, about three weeks no raining. Part of land has lost of wild shrubs that may cause slow moving. I believe he use a M9000 Kubota and 6' woods rough cutter. I like to believe 18 hours is OK. 4 hour estimate is too low. But I am really unhappy he promised arrange spray and plow, then do nothing, no respond to phone call at all. I may post a job offer to our local craigslist recently, see if anyone like to do chisel plow 16 acre job. May I ask what is ball park price to do plow? Thanks. ....

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kangaroo31
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2007-12-20          149496


Lwayne
I did soil test but did not pick it yet. The CPS person told me will give me a call when it ready. No phone call at all. I just wait until couple weeks ago, I call them. They said it is ready but the person can explains question went to vacation. It is too late this year anyway blah blah...I got my lesson.
Local Extension service is even harder, can not even make an appointment. They are so "busy" too. Winter now, I will give an other try. ....

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Lwayne
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 95
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2007-12-20          149506


Kangaroo31: Keep climbing the ladder until you get results. You're a taxpayer. I'm usually not an antagonist but from what you're writing it's time to become a royal pain in somebody's a**! County Commissioners, State Legislators, Dept. of Ag.; it's going to be an election year. The run-a-round you're getting makes for bad publicity if it's documented and presented in a manner that would expose the culprits (if they don't get your message). If these people don't understand the necessity of doing there job in a timely manner for people who are completely dependent upon the weather (seasons) somebody had better wake them up; and it may as well be you! As for the cost of hiring the work done, that's wide ranging. I would say if you have virgin soil and no standing water a 150 hp tractor and chisel plow wouldn't get stuck very easy unless there's absolutely no bottom under the sod. It would take a couple of hours to go over it once and it should be done at least a couple of times at first just because you're not going to get everything in one pass. If the shrub roots are very big or numerous that would change the amount of time allowed. I'd be willing to pay $100 per hour just because it is going to save you so many headaches later on. The prices in your area may vary widely though. "BUT" if you haven't gotten to the bottom of your saturation problems by spring you may want to dig a few test sump holes first to give you a better handle on the water table. Dig holes deep enough for about a foot of water to build up in and pump it a good distance away. Time how long it takes for the holes to refill. Naturally, the more shallow the holes or if they continually refill and/or the ground is constantly muddy you'll have big problems using a normal tractor and implements on it. That's why I encourage you to demand that a qualified person in your area examine your exact situation and tell you the best course of action to take. ....

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Art White
Join Date: Jan 2000
Posts: 6885 Waterville New York
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2007-12-20          149509



With a finish mower 72" wide you can mow about 4 acres an hour pretty easy at about 3 to 4 miles an hour.. ....

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kthompson
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 5223 South Carolina
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2007-12-21          149524


Kangaro, County Agents here (South Carolina) seems all take vacation in the fall and early winter. I needed to ask a question and all with 20 plus years (had time to take off) were off for about 3 counties. Makes sense they are very busy when getting ready for crop and then when it is growing.

As to the guy not calling you back, could something be happened to him? Sick or such. Could be the way God is protecting you from his ability? Since no one has called you back, do you have a way for them to leave a message or you on the phone all the time as my brother in law is and can not be reached by phone?

As Lwayne has pointed out, keep trying.

There is another possibility but based upon your comments here do not think that is it, then it could be...how you communicate with these people. Some times it can be just the fact you are not from there and some areas just don't like people who are different or have moved into their area or who are being successful where they failed.

Christmas can be a good time to make friends...get you a few boxes of cookies or such (does not have to cost much) and take the time to visit a few when you can spend just a few minutes with them. It use to be when a new person moved into the area those living there visited them. Then it got to where we had so many moving in here who did not like to be friendly most locals quit this. Now it takes much longer to meet them and be neighbors. Could be what you are up against. Then those who move in and make any effort here are very well welcomed.

Kangaro, I am upset at myself for just thinking of this. I have not gone back to look and if already covered forgive me. When you bought this land, did you get to meet the person or people who owned it? If possible have you talked to them about it? If they had it long and knew it, they may can provide you with much valuable information. If they are not, take a box of cookies or such and go talk to the people who own land joining it. Ask them about the land and share with their your goals. You will be amazed how much if they worked their land, they know about the land next door. ....

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kangaroo31
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 120 Orange County, NY
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2007-12-21          149558


Lwayne thanks ler me know the normal price of plow.
About AG Services here, some issues on my side too. I am a not fulltime farmer, most things I can only finish weekends.
I tried 3 times in week days, cannot make an appointment. Plus I am living 20miles away from the farm land. I will keep to try. Have wonderful and safe HolidaysI ....

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kangaroo31
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 120 Orange County, NY
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2007-12-21          149559


Thanks, Art. So many things need to learn. ....

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kangaroo31
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 120 Orange County, NY
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2007-12-21          149561


kthompson
Thanks for mention all the possiblities. It could be. I am not a person very open as well. I agree I need make more friends in AG industry. I did not met pre-owner because he is in New Zealand. But I tried make friends with all the neighbors and hired some of them do somethings. Your right, language and culture background(thinking method) are always limited to me even after 10 years. I will try my best to become one of them. Merry Christmas and Happy new year to your family.
....

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candoarms
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 1932 North Dakota
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2007-12-21          149562


Kangaroo31,

May I ask where you are from? You've been here ten years? Where were you prior to coming to the U.S.?

I found that communicating with the people of Germany was very difficult at first -- as was trying to carry on a conversation with the people of Korea, which was even harder for me. But, after a few months, things seem to improve quite a bit.

I'll do my best to help in any way I can.

Joel ....

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Lwayne
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 95
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2008-04-09          152854


Kangaroo31: I'm interested to know if you were ever able to get to the bottom of your drainage issues. It might be a good time to dig up that wet ground before the frost comes completely out of the ground to prevent sinking too deep and possibly getting stuck. ....

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kangaroo31
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 120 Orange County, NY
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2008-04-10          152865


Lwayne
Thanks for reminding. I hired people re-dig all the old ditchs, about 5000 feet in Feb. They use PC-200 done the jobs very quick. And built 3 fifteen feet cross pipe bridges. Looks the drain issue under control now. ....

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