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kthompson
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2006-09-11          135056


I heard a reporter say something along the line it is something we can not bear to think on nor afford to forget.

Hard to realize 9/11 was 5 years ago. Sad so many have forgotten that day and the losses. The list is amazing and many are called US Senators or Reps. Remember them when you vote.

May we remember those who were lost then and since then. Here and abroad. Under more than one flag. Thank God for those who are standing fast.

May God continue to Bless the USA.

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wingwiper
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2006-09-12          135108


KT

Excellent post.
Funny how this country stood UNITED to DECLARE WAR ON TERRORISTS AND ALL COUNTRIES WHO HARBOR THEM and now many of these UNITED people want to point fingers and create a Political Soapbox. The images of innocent people jumping from windows and becoming bloody mangled messes on the ground, motivates me to keep their Spirit alive and defeat terrorism, forever.
I have spent a lot of time wondering how it would have been to be on any one of those Airlines and to know the end was coming, how would I have acted? Would I have been Brave? Would I have made any effort to attack the attackers? I think about those who were on the planes that could not act, for they were too young, too frail or ignorant about what was going on. The lives that ended all too soon and for what reason? The Screams, the Fear and the cries as the plane was lead to its end. DO we all out of our own fears choose to do NOTHING or do we choose to go after terrorists no matter where they are with Vigor and Devote Determination to exterminate them?
9-11 had thousands of Heroes and they were by far not all Firemen and Police. I would love to see a country stand United, instead those who once wanted vengeance now feel they have a Golden opportunity to bash Bush or Bash those who support the war. I call those people AMERICA'S COWARDS. The COWARDS are those who feel it is not of their concern, it is not for them to make any effort, it is not them who needs to get involved and they use lame, donít involve me excuses as such " The United States should not be the World's Police" LOL. Yeah! We should sit on our hands and wait for the next one and then go to church and pray...
God Bless America and God Bless those who are involved in making this world a better place for ALL future generations. God Bless those who donít spend their lives just thinking of their own needs and are willing to sacrifice for others.
....

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DenisS
Join Date: May 2006
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2006-09-12          135113


KT,

I know what you mean, but if God continues to bless us the way He's been doing, soon we won't have any skyscrapers left.

We're in bad shape. This president and his secretary of defence have jailed our marines on trumped up charges. Others have been prosecuted and sent to jail for doing to the terrorists what had to be done. We dare not bring up the topic of deportations of ethnic middle easterners (and I don't necessarity mean muslims only).

I cannot stand to even see the trailers for 9/11 themed movies. I want vengeance, justice and closure. I want to be able to walk onto a plane without having to take off my shoes or throw away my baby's juice bottle. When my life returns to normal, then show me your stupid movies. Now is time for war, not entertainment.

It's been 5 years and Bin Laden is still at large - that's all I need to know about the ineptitude of our leadership and the imbicility of our electorate.

I better stop - I see this was posted on "Site Chat", not "Pointless and Hostile". ....

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wingwiper
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2006-09-12          135114


Denis

Excellent post, up until the last paragraph.
Bin Laden not being caught has nothing to do with anyone in Washington D.C. Our troops are in terrain they have NEVER been in before, the Liberals do NOT want to see a Major Troop Build up in Afghanistan. Currently the Taliban is regrouping in Pakistan and when they decide to come back into Afghanistan we will have our work cut out for us and it will be a Major battle. Will it happen? that is NOT the question to be asking but rather HOW SOON WILL IT HAPPEN? Bin Laden is worthless as compared to his infrastructure. We have done as good of a job as we can to chopping away his infrastructure and without an infracstructure, bin Laden is a Nobody, he has no real Army, we have foiled his plans over and over again. What we, the military has done does NOT show a thing abou tthe Leadership in Washington, for the Leadership in Washington has to answer to everyone and that is Liberals, Republicans, Democrats, Moderates, Socialists, Hindu, Buddha, everyone. They represent every single American and NOT just the ones who elect them. They have to do things that are Accepted NOT by just you and me but by the Tree Huggers, the Pacifists etc. The Military is who is searching and we are only in 2006 and by what some people think, we have technology from 2206 and should be able to find a person in vast area of mountains with NO PROBLEMS. Like we planted Operatives there years ago? Hell no one cared about Afghanistan so there are NO real Operatives, we are doing it all from the seat of our pants. You want Fidel? no problem... You want Putin? no problem, you want some dumb ass towel head in the middle of Bum F--k Afghanistan, well you are going to have to wait. There are No Magic Crystals that some President Elect can throw up in the air and instantly have Bin Laden for you, regardless of what the Democrats promise. LOL ....

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Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999
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2006-09-12          135115


WW, you forgot the part about Bin Laden being protected in some of the most desolate, uncharted territory left on the face of this planet, by a duty-bound group of fierce fighters who know that country like the back of their hand.

You could lose a LOT of lives trying an end run into that kind of LZ.

Hot doesn't even come close...... ....

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wingwiper
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2006-09-12          135116


Murf

Amen ....

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DenisS
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2006-09-12          135117


WW,

1) "Our troops are in terrain they have NEVER been in before"

Our troops never saw the south pacific until the WWII either, and they did just fine.

2) "Liberals do NOT want to see a Major Troop Build up in Afghanistan"

Liberals do not control the presidency nor both houses of the legislature. The buck stops with the leadership. I don't want to hear any more excuses about liberals. Bush is the commander in chief, he just acts like a woman.

3) "Bin Laden is worthless as compared to his infrastructure"

Bin Laden is a symbol far more important than his infrastructure, what IS bin laden's infrastructure, by the way? He's got none - his weapon is islamic fundamentalism and he's the fundamentalists' profet. Kill the prophets, the followers will scatter.

4) "No Magic Crystals that some President Elect can throw up in the air"

Don't need no majic crystals. We have neutron bombs for that. We could have eliminated Bin Laden with minimal collateral damage (100K - 200K people at most) if we nuked the mountains where he was hiding in the aftermath of 9/11.

Anyway, had you been in charge, I know things would be different. Loyalty to command is sure a good thing, but being a citizen is different from being a soldier. We're the management (supposedly), let's clean house. ....

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wingwiper
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2006-09-12          135118


Murf and Denis

Some of our guys just got back from Afghanistan and they were telling us about how them S.O.B.s will set up RPGs against rocks, up in the mountains overlooking a F.B. and then they use a rig on the trigger and a cigarette to burn against the rig etc. When the RPG goes off, it may get a D.H. or it may hit nearby, either way, Our guys will call in a strike and by the time they scale the mountain and get to the location, there is only an abandoned RPG and the bums have been gone for hours. They had 8 years to learn Russian Tactics and they know how to keep technology occupied. One thing for certain, they surly can't move a large mass of their troops effectively across that God forsaken terrain and if they do, we'll see them and lite em up. We can't move a large mass either for they eyes everywhere as well and really don't need some Satelite at 500 miles up to them where we are.
Afghanistan is no where like the Pacific of WWII, Attitude is 180 degrees different. We were United during WWII, today everyone thinks President Bush can win or lose a war all by himself. You said we did JUST FINE in the Pacific, Hell, the Marines lost 5000 men on Iwo Jima in just hours, Guadlacanal cost thousands, Bougainville, Siapan, Tarawa were God awful bloody battles, and so on, we did just fine you say? tens of thousands dead Marines and Soldiers to accomplish that JUST FINE. How would those numbers be if we witnessed them in Afghanistan? I don't think Naval Support would be much good. JUST FINE in the Pacific? God look at the courage and the blood to get to Tokoyo. Afghanistan is a Hell Hole, very few spots for a LZ piss poor areas for a FB and then if you want to link more than one together, you are exposing yourself. No one in Washington can change the fact that Afghanistan is a very tough Operation no matter how many men you send in. It is a terrain that the Military hates to have to deal with. Tops look like a mass of compressed lines and to tell a ground pounder he has to cover 6 clicks, he will look at you and tell you were you can go. We can't go from area to area and bomb the crap out of it, shoot everything that moves. We have the Liberals who piss and moan if we dance a towel head naked. We have the Liberals who piss and moan because these friggin Gitmo terrorists should be treated like 5 year old shoplifters.
Liberals control the Presidency more than anyone else does, just look at the ACLU. Motives have to be debated and not just Executed by the President. Come on Denis, you make it sound as if we have Kings and Queens and no checks and balances. The President can not and has not just acted alone, you have George confused with Billy and how Billy boy use to hide in a closed room with General Shelton and a Senator and decide what area to launch a few dozen Tommies at and then the Congress would scramble AFTER to make excuses for Billy. You are right Denis, President Bush is the Commander in Chief and what is that suppose to mean? He can order men to act like Lemmies? Neutron Bomb? Every country in the world would be after us, you seem to think flexing muscle is going to solve everything and have no after affect. Yet you seem to Hate the Bush Administration for the very reason you imply. Do you realize what a Neutron Bomb in the Mountains would do? Mountains do not shield force, they alter its course. Remember the So called Aspirin Factory in Sudan that Billy Boy blew up? The Moron didn't think that if that factory was producing agents, he and his crazy notions made them airborne particles. The what seems to be OBVIOUS answer is not always what it seems.
Bin Laden is a nobody, always has been a nobody, take out Bin Laden and there will be someone like him to replace him, do you gain anything? not a thing. Destroy his infrastructure, destroy his means and what have you gained? everything needed to be gained.
Denis, I am not a puppet, please do not imply, I am no more blind to command as you are to Hollywood's version of a War. Facts are facts. It is very easy to judge how things should be and yet when in the thick of it, the how to be s become very impossible.
....

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kthompson
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2006-09-12          135120


...there are many here who has served to protect...recently and a few years ago...thank you. ....

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DenisS
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2006-09-12          135126


The US lost around 500,000 military (?) between end of 1941 and 1945 and won the war in the Pacific. Great sacrifice, no two ways about it. Like you said, the country was united behind the cause.

Russia lost 27 million between mid-1941 and May 1945. By most conservative estimates that number is at 22 million, that includes civilian deaths. That's 15 THOUSAND DEAD russians EVERY SINGLE DAY FOR FOUR YEARS STRAIGHT. Can you fathom that loss? But that's what it took to take care of Hitler.

When there's a will there's a way. When there's no will there's G.W. Bush. He won re-election despite the "unpopular" war; that should have told him to use all means necessary to eradicate the threat. He had the mandate and he squandered it being an appeaser and deal-maker that he is. There are no checks in balances in the military. He and Rumsfeld have full authority. He just chose not to use it to the best interest of Americans and our troops. He's too afraid that "world leaders" won't invite him to the cool parties at Davos or the G8 summit. phony...

And I could't give a flying hoot about what other countries think of the US, they hate our guts already. ....

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kthompson
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2006-09-12          135129


As to what any county thinks of the USA, it may not be necessary they like us but it sure is they respect us. That can be for more than one reason or it can only be for one. Sadly there are those who don't understand or don't care, I have no idea which. Don't think the Soviet Union ever liked us, but think they did respected us. ....

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SG8NUC
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2006-09-12          135130


Watch the Ted koppel special on security on the I think history channel. There are a lot of different views from all sides. What I got out of it is trading american lives civilian and military for the rights of muslem prisoners. ....

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wingwiper
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2006-09-13          135141


Denis (really I am writting this with no disrespect)

Whew! where do I begin with people who have stopped listening to logic and reasoning and intead choose to just hate?
The UNPOPULAR WAR? Funny! as I remember it, The President had the MAJORITY of the House and the Senate back him as well as the U.S. Population and many world countries. Everyone had the SAME Intel and the INTEL was as good as possibly could be, considering no one had effective Operatives in the Middle East. 9 / 11 woke alot of people up, but the problem seems to be too many rolled over and went back to sleep.
Did you read who Germany just released from Prison a few days ago and who rejoined the terrorists?
Do you believe in the FOOD FOR OIL scandal? Have you read about the FOOD FOR OIL and how SADDAM was benefiting and the terrorists were building strentgh? What countries were involved and were these the SAME countries who chose NOT to support us as we tried to get the U.N. off of their asses to enforce any ONE of the 17 resolutions they had issued against Saddam?
Was the Weapon Inspectors not lead around by rings in their noses prior to being thrown out?
Was Saddam and Qusay and Quday Not responsible for hundreds of thousands if not millions of executions, murders and rapes of the very people who relied on thir LEADERSHIP?
Did Bill Clinton not fire dozens of Cruise Missles into Iraq to rob attention from his hearings?
Was Saddam not building a SUPER GUN?
We have found WMDs and We have found Chemical Agents, over 500 to be exact and we have proved links to the Al Qeada and even the Taliban why do people refuse to accept their exsistance and links?
Where would we stage a Mideast War from Denis? the U.S.? We knew Iraq was a troubled area and it was a stragetic area as well and not for frigging OIL but for location to set up an Offensive against the Al Queada and the Taliban and any and ALL terrorists from the Middle East. We did not have to seek AIR SPACE permission from Turkey or whoever, we do not need to refuel several times per mission and we have SAFE AREAS in Kuwait and Saudi to train, supply and disperse our military forces. We have the Liberals back here who don't understand horseshit from dogshit and keep on running their blind mouths and accusing the U.S. of Astrocities and all other forms of their hateful, unloyal cries.
YES! I am loyal to command and I chose to be loyal to command for what I am as a citizen, I am not an ignorant Kimakazee who drinks Saki and climbs in, I read, I watch, I listen, I participate and I reason out truth from bashing and when I hear stupid Liberals cry teir hate and discontent I want to buy them bus tickets and send them to Mexico with the other Illegals.
You have NO CLUE why President Bush chose NOT to use his so-called Full Authority (which by the way, he does NOT have) unless you have been getting deeply involved and have the contacts he has, you can only assume through CNN and other sound bytes. You can gather a ton of sound bytes and have a small cargo load but still a far cry from what the Experts gather in a single day. President Bush did what that pissed you off? What did President Bush do and be sure it wasn't Congress or the Senate but what exactly has President Bush done that pissed you off so much? Could you be precise in explaining what he did ALONE and without support or persuassion from the House and Senate? What did President BUSH do, all by himself that has Denis and so many others pissed off? Now please do not include lied about Iraq that is as old as the bones at Boot Hill and as phoney as Michael Moore and Dan Rather and the Clintons. There were NO LIES,ZERO Point shit, Hind sight will always make things appear differently but we can NOT look back at ourselves NOW until we venture further into the future. Lies show intent and Bush had no intent, end of that discussion. WMDs then/ Well Saddam and his sons were three wopping WMDs, unless you have a picture of what kind of WMD you are searching for, we found many Artillery Shells loaded with Sarin and just recently we found more andmore WMDs, so when a Democrat was asked about te recently found WMDs and now there is proof they exsisted, the reply was ' that doesn't matter he lied' so it seems it is an always shifting reason why the Left hates President Bush. LOL
The people are on a need to know basis and they have no need to know the full extent of any National Security info, it is not the kind of info the press should be publishing as did the liberal rag the New York Times. Great service to their country that ole New York Times, how many lives have they cost, and DIRECTLY? Far more than President Bush, for now the terrorists we may have caught will continue to train others and kill dozens at a time. But nooooo we don't want to even think that yesterdays car bombing or the day befores could even be remotely linked to the New York Times we would rather just link it to Bush. If you don't want to link to the NYT then how about France, Germany and Russia and their participation in Food for Oil, where the embargos that we had in place to serve a purpose of flushing out the evil instead was being fed with billions and billions of corrupt Food for Oil money right up to the U.N.? How many lives and what barriers did that put into place? You think this is just about Bush and our love for oil? Damn.... ....

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AnnBrush
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2006-09-13          135145


Us: Afraid to die
Them: Looking forward to martyrdom
Us: Lots to loose (Lives equipment money votes)
Them: Nothing to loose (Extremely poor limited equipment no democracy)
Us: Squabbling over the war every which way - stay in, get out, no direction, political positioning
Them: Death to America

How do you win a war like this? ....

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wingwiper
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2006-09-13          135150


Ann

Through Determination, Education and offering Oppurtunities and a Future. all of which we are doing. Some of what we have accomplished http://www.defendamerica.mil/iraq/rebuilding.html
The children of Iraq are born innocent and what they become when they are Young Adults is from influence. Fear from a bad regime has been the influence for 30 years. Fear to be executed, raped or murdered for fun has kept the people summissive. We are changing that, we are offering Hope where there was none, we are offering Choice where they had none and we are offering Freedom which they never felt. Just because I was born American does NOT mean I am the only Nationality entitled to a decent life. I support helping anyone who is in need and the people of the middle east are definetely in need. If you do not share these views, no one has called upon you, if you do share these views, then I am sure you are doing a part to make the world a better place, but sitting on ones hands and admitting to a defeat before a battle is even fought, sorry, not my cup of tea.
LEAD, FOLLOW OR GET THE HELL OUT OF THE WAY

Evil spreads quickly and without concern for borders if left unchecked, but do you know what? so doesn't Goodness. ....

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Murf
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2006-09-13          135151


Ann, while your comment is certainly thoughtful, it is, IMHO, also very misleading.

The average Joe, Ahmed?, over there is NOT a zealous mis-guided fanatic, who is bent on destroying America even though the Quaran says he can't or he won't go to heaven.

They are hard-working, family-oriented people who want nothing more than a happy, peaceful existance.

It is the few nutbars who you see on CNN that you are referring to, NOT the majority by any means.

I was speaking with a friend who is an Middle East expert with the CIA, he says the demonstartions you see on TV in most of that area, as well as those you see in Asia, and used to see in Russia, are the result of one thing, and one thing only, the organizers PAY people to come out and demonstrate. That and in most cases the people are too afraid to say "No" to them for fear of retribution.

I saw this first hand in Grenada years ago. The people were demonstrating against our "invasion" one day, and thronging their "liberators" the next....

As a buddy from Texas says, "After you cut off the ratler's head, the rest tastes pretty good."

Best of luck. ....

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AnnBrush
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2006-09-13          135153


I was not refering to the "average joe" Iraqi (sp?), i'm refering to those we actually are trying to engage. Problem is we are fighting it in someone elses yard, eventually that someone tires of your presence and you end up with more enemies than you started with. My observations are that when the plan and path is clear ahead everyone is in agreement - no problem. The bickering starts when the plan falls apart and there is no clear contingency (as evidenced by all the bickering). Looks to me like we are stuck for now - can't win, can't pull out. Not proposing any solutions here - not bashing anyone - bloody glad I am not a politician - not as proud an American as I used to be - we underestimated this one. ....

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wingwiper
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2006-09-13          135154


Ann

With all due respect and no disrespect intended.
WIN? what would define a WIN in Iraq? It is not a war as you may be accustomed to for comparisions. It is a war on terrorists and for the Iraqi people to have a life where they are able to make their own choices. A Win in Iraq is Not going to be measured in body counts, nor is it going to be measured in ground taken. It has already been won in so many ways. The people of Iraq stood in lines to Vote as they were being car bombed and that tells me, they want the choices being offered to them. The Win will be measured when people are free to walk their own streets and have a job of choice and be able to come home, to a home with a paycheck. It is happening more and more each and every day.
As good Americans we do not need to be back here creating more obstacles and casting doubt for the men and women who are doing the job of getting it done.
Yes! we are fighting in someone else's yard and thank God to that. We need to understand why we are fighting there and I think I explained it above. The MidEast is a Hot Zone and we had no real presence there, no deterrent for Evil to develope and grow. What we have with Iraq, Kuwait and Saudi is Bases, a presence, a means to deploy to other Hot Spots and exterminate the problems. This war is cheaper than trying to wage from a Base in Germany or from who knows where else. We are being seen and after awhile they will come to realize, we mean business and we are staying for as long as it takes. If they sense they can win the war by wining over the home people of the U.S. then we will have a longer and more costly war ahead. Fact! we are there until mission accomplished. Fact, we can do it easier and less cosntly with United Support or we can pay more in lives and in money for as long as the enemy sees a weakness in our support. Fact, we aren't leaving until we are done. Sorry, too much at stake and the squeaky wheel will NOT get any grease this time around, all that wheel will create is problems for the others.
I have seen a clearly defined mission, I do not feel in the least bit that I have been lied to and I fully 100% support our troops and their mission.
Women in the middle east are treated like property and have of little value, I have three daughters and I think how many wonderful women there are in the middle east like my daughters, that could turn out like my daughters, if given just one thing.....OPPURTUNITY. To read how they need to keep themselves covered, they are traded for Cows, when a husband grows tired of his wife, he merely pours gasoline on her and sets her afire. He may kill a daughter with no risk of punishment. He may disfigure a wife or daughter with no penalty. Sorry, Ann, I love my daughters and I know there are millions of girls just like them that would be happy with a chance to live life as a woman and not as a piece of property of some sicko. Is it my business? YES! I think it is, I share the same planet and as long as I am able to help, I want to help. For those who choose not to get involved, fine,
LEAD, FOLLOW OR GET THE HELL OUT OF THE WAY

....

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AnnBrush
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2006-09-13          135156


"As good Americans we do not need to be back here creating more obstacles and casting doubt for the men and women who are doing the job of getting it done."

So just shut up and say nothing? Statements like these smack of an authoritarian high-handed and autocratic approach, the complete opposite of what we are supposed to stand for. Unfortunately they don't just appear in web discussion groups they are also used by our leaders. We do ourselves a great disservice when we advocate the silencing of those that dissent. It's also truely "unamerican" although there is plenty of shameful historical evidence that it happens. ....

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DenisS
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2006-09-13          135159


WW,

I used "unpopular war" in quotes. I meant it sarcastically. There should be a symbol of some sort on my keyboard for sarcasm. I meant to say that Bush needs to grow a pair and fight this war like a man not a sissy that he is. You ask me why I hate Bush? I resent him because he portrays himself like a tough guy but when it comes to making tough decisions, he folds. He shows his weakness and the animals we're dealing with only understand strength. The ONLY way to earn the respect of these animals is punish them with all brutality that we're capable off. Bush is undermining our security by not authorizing the measures that need to be taken to eliminate the islamophascist threat. If he was a Dem, I couldn't care because that's the low-life slime they are, but he is supposedly a conservative and I have no other option in general elections but to vote republican and that's why I'm mad.

Can you defend the following actions by the Bush administration:

1) jailing and procecution of our military for alleged mistreatment of terrorists
2) failure to abliterate terrorists havens like Faluja, Bacuba and Naj when these were presented as such
3) failure to eliminate al-Sadr when he challenged the US authority in Iraq
4) failure to catch Bin Laden and employ all means necessary to do so (even including the invasion of Pakistan)
5) failure to close the borders

Don't explain these failures away - they are simply shows of weakness under political pressure. Neither of these could have been stopped by ACLU, so let's stop blaming the libs. The only lib we have to worry about is the one in the white house. ....

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wingwiper
Join Date: Jun 2004
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2006-09-13          135160


Denis

I know you are being sarcastic, but I have heard also reported in non-sarcastic ways.
You and I have. What we must constantly remind ourselves of is YOU AND I ARE NOT THE ONLY ONES WITH OPINIONS OR A VOTE. Everyone has to satisfied and outcomes have to be anyalized to see how it will affect us now and down the road. What seems dumb to us now will make perfect sense 20 years from now. Government outlawed Strip mining and pissed many people off, they outlawed catching Dolphin and govern which waters were to be fished and not fished. They goevern steel production and how the furnaces would burn. That piss many steel workers off and sent tons of business to Japan where they don't give two shits to the wind about clean air. No matter what government does, it will piss some off. Americans have made the mistake of looking at Government as a Football game, they root for the parties like they would for a team. Screw logic and common sense and concern for enviroment or issues, their only interest is not whether he got a blow job in the Oval Office during taxpayers time but he was a Democrat being accused by Republicans.
Don't blame the President for accomplishments that can not be achieved by a President, that gives clean tickets to the jerks who are really behind the problems, the Ted Kennedys. the Diane Fiensteins, the Barbra Boxers, the Byrds, the Murthas, the Deans, the Clintons etc etc. These are the people that no one can remember how they voted and they keep getting re-elected term after term. yet the President gets the blame when the Estate Tax doesn't get passed or the Budget grows large from tremdous amounts of Pork Bills. We all need to look at voting records of our Senators and Congressmen and keep as sharp an eye on them as we feel we have on the President. Let the blame go where it is most deserved, to the Fillibuster experts, to the ones who make a cirus out of the Supreme Court Justice Nominations, I mean how stupid are we that we allow Ted Kennedy (WANTED FOR MURDER AND DRUNK DRIVING) to sit and judge the ethics of a Supreme Court Judge Nominee? Why do we only focus on the President? because we are too ignorant about what is going on and he is the name we can remember best? LOL, I mean you can ask most people who their Senators and Congressmen are and they look at you with a real dumb look. Go ahead ask the next ten people you see. Now ask them who the President is? Programmed aren't they? Let's blame the only name we know....... ....

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wingwiper
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2006-09-13          135161


ANN no disrespect intended

"So just shut up and say nothing? Statements like these smack of an authoritarian high-handed and autocratic approach, the complete opposite of what we are supposed to stand for."
Really??? No! I did not say that, you did. Do you look at me as an Authoritarian? well thank you for the comliment. High-handed? where does that come from? autcratic approach? Do you tell your kids to shut and eat dinner? When you are speaking and a child interups you, what do you say to them? Do you stop everything and listen to them or do you send them to their room? There is a time to speak and time not to. You can go to Debates, talk to your representatives, get on campaign committees to support or defeat a person who is running for issues not in your interest. Once the elections are over, the PEOPLE have spoken and nothing will change it. Your duty, as I think it is written in the same book you claim to get your directions from, is to support your country and her Missions. I do not see any where in the Consitution of the Untited States where Free Speech is encouraged when it is against the good standing of ones country. No way. Free Speech will not allow you to jeopardize the Safety or Security of her people such as Yelling Fire in a crowded theater or telling Russians or Iraqis information about our aresenals etc. There are limitations to Free Speech when it endangers lives of others. You have Freedom until it infringes on the Freedoms of others. You say what we are suppose to stand for, let me ask you, What do we stand for? chaos? unethical? lack of morals? do you cross your heart when the flag goes by? why not? Do you stand when the National Anthym is played? why not? what do they stand for? nothing? dissent? bashing? uncoperative? disresepct? unpatriototic? WHere are these views written that they are guaranteed and they are how GOOD AMERICANS are suppose to be? Seems like dissent is UnAmerican in my views and I really don't know what you mean by your comparisions with out reference or example. You speak of guarantees and Rights and I ask, where do they come from, who gives you those guarantees and rights? Who enforces them should they be threaten? Who ensures they will be here tomorrow? and now HOW?

"Unfortunately they don't just appear in web discussion groups they are also used by our leaders. We do ourselves a great disservice when we advocate the silencing of those that dissent."

DISSENT? is that what you think it is? the New York Times dissented when it gave away vital information that would lead to the arrest of our countries enemies? You believe that every one has a GUARANTEE to FREE SPEECH no matter what because they have a RIGHT TO DISSENT? We do our selves a GREATER Diservice when we allow our own people to endanger the lives of fellow Americans because they feel they have a RIGHT to dissent.

"It's also truely "unamerican" although there is plenty of shameful historical evidence that it happens."

UNAMERICAN? now where did you find that at? No insult intended, but have you really ever read the U.S. Constitution, every word? The Declaration of Independence? the Bill of Rights? the Federalists Papers? Where do you find that you have a Right to dissent or it is UNAmerican to support your country while at war? Do you Honestly feel you have a Right to endanger the Safety and Security of our Troops because you feel you have a Right? Which Amendment covers this Right? In the Military Dissent is deemed as Mutiny when there is more than TWO. Dissent can also be deemed as a coup. Dissent is dangerous and I see no where in the Constitution of the United States where anyone is encouraged to dissent or that it is a Right. ....

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ncrunch32
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2006-09-13          135162


Wingwiper - you win based on the length of your posts alone :) ....

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wingwiper
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2006-09-13          135163


Thanks :) ....

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Billy
Join Date: Oct 1999
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2006-09-13          135168


wingwiper, this kind of caught my eye.

"When you are speaking and a child interups you, what do you say to them? Do you stop everything and listen to them or do you send them to their room? There is a time to speak and time not to."

There was a time that when one of your parents said hush, you'd better do exactly that. If you didn't, you didn't get sent to your room or no TV. If you know what I mean. Back then you knew what the word respect was.

I guess my point is, as parents, are we doing the right thing?

Sorry to hijack the thread but thought it was worth mentioning. ....

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wingwiper
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2006-09-13          135169


Billy

You are as welcome as anybody else and your opinion has as much weight as anyones. Feel free to speak your mind.
I usually caught the backside of a hand if I didn't do as I was told and I am sure my mom would have been locked up for life for all of her child abuse. I mean she would buy them paddles with a rubber ball on the end of a 20 second rubber band and we all knew what she was going to use it for when that 20 second rubber band exceeded its life expectancy. We would be sent upstairs and down they would come and across that bed we would lie and wait and wait for them God awful footsteps that would come up them stairs and the silence and then the air would have this swoosh sound that lasted only a milisecond followed by these God Awful screams and stinging cheeks. Yup! respect! yes sir re Bob, we had it driven in to us from the rear and it stayed with us for a long while. ....

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AnnBrush
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2006-09-13          135175


"You believe that every one has a GUARANTEE to FREE SPEECH no matter what because they have a RIGHT TO DISSENT?"

"Dissent is dangerous and I see no where in the Constitution of the United States where anyone is encouraged to dissent or that it is a Right."

"No insult intended, but have you really ever read the U.S. Constitution, every word? [paraphrased] Where do you find that you have a Right to dissent ..."

US Law 101
That would be the very first amendment. I'm getting the distinct feeling that participating in this discussion is not going to be very enlightening. FYI a copy of the amendment is attached to this post as is a definition of the word dissent. Should anyone wish to dissent please know it's your first amendment right, and as such constitutionally protected, those soldiers out there are supposedly fighting to keep that right for us, during war and peace time. Oh and by the way the freedom of the press is also protected by this amendment (seeing as that was questioned as well).

From First Law:
U.S. Constitution: First Amendment

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

Dissent (from Wikipedia)
Dissent is a sentiment or philosophy of non-agreement or opposition to an idea (eg. a government's policies) or an entity (eg. an individual or political party which supports such policies). Antonyms include agreement, consensus and consent. ....

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wingwiper
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2006-09-14          135181


Ann
Enlightenment is only when people respond that agree with you? When they don't agree it is what?
U.S. Law 101? did you study law or is that only implying towards me? Even Lawyers can be quacks and studying law doesn't mean one has a grip on the true meaning.
I am very aware of what the first Amednment says and I see no reference to dissent where you endanger your fellow American.
People can respectfully dissent from a debate but that isn't what I was talking about. I was talking about the people of the Untited States, by Majority, going to War and I do NOT feel that those who choose to Bash the President, accuse the U.S. of false Artocities, try to find fault constantly, throw barriers in front of our Policies, and reveal vital information that endangers our troops and our people is DISSENT or is protected under the 1st Amendment or any other Amendment. I think I made my reference pretty clear. There are limitations to freedom of Speech and as I said when you endanger the Safety or Security of your Fellow Americans, it is No longer Freedom of Speech and that Opposition or dissent is kissing the meaning of treason.
You refer to the First Amendment as if it is OPEN GUARANTEE, it is not. There are Limits to your Freedom of Speech and in most places you need a PERMIT to Peacefully Assemble, You need to be careful your Freedom of Speech does not commit treason, Slander, Assault, panic, chaos, deflamation and so forth. You do NOT have an OPEN Right to bash the Mission of the Untied States when that Mission has been voted on and enacted by the clear Majority which the War in Iraq was.
Ann without disrespect, I serve th U.S. Constitution and I believe in it with all my Heart, but I do not believe that people who constantly speak of discontent with the war in Iraq, bash the president, accuses our forces of crimes and artocities, reveals vital information that endangers lives, gives condolences to the enemy etc. is protected by the First Amendment in any way. That is hiding behind an Amendment for the full reason of trying to justify ones hate towards their own country and that to me is closer to treason than it is to the First Amendment of the U.S. Constitution. That is the New Liberalism of Today. (I am NOT accusing You of anything, read carefully) The Demostrations during the Vietnam War were not excersises of Free Speech but of violent oppostion to the U.S. Policies in place. Most involved had Zero knowledge of the reasons for the War or Policies but showed up for mere opposition and participated in destruction and causing choas to the direction of our Mission. Did they cost American Lives? they most certainly did, Jane Fonda who? when Our troops are on a battlefield and then become uncertain, and unfocused of what they are suppose to be doing and they know that no matter what they do they will be critized, YES! many were killed. That Ann is not the dissent that you try to refer to the First Amendment for.
You said "The bickering starts when the plan falls apart and there is no clear contingency (as evidenced by all the bickering) Looks to me like we are stuck for now - can't win, can't pull out. We do ourselves a great disservice when we advocate the silencing of those that dissent. It's also truely "unamerican" although there is plenty of shameful historical evidence that it happens. "
Acutally where do you feel we have FAILED? Why do say we are STUCK? Can't Win? that is a very strong claim. We do NOT do a Bad Service by silencing dissenters? There is no doubt in my mind it is the dissenters who have prolonged the mission, caused failures where we may have had successes and who have caused distractions with their ignorance and their false accusations.
....

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DenisS
Join Date: May 2006
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2006-09-14          135182


Ann,
You're just on target. Descent is the whole reason to have a discussion; what a boring existence it would be if there was no one to argue with. Most of our arguing is done for entertainment's sake anyway : )

WW,
I listed 5 failures (not accusations, but real lack-of-leadership-type failures) in the last post on page 2. Your general comments did not address these points. You mentioned something about needing to have political consensus to be able to achieve things. Neither of the things listed by me were/are subject to political process as they could have been accomplished with a simple command.
....

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wingwiper
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2006-09-14          135185


Denis

You listed five personnal opinions and they are by no means established facts. You also said "Don't explain these failures away" so I did not. Now you are wondering why I did not.

1. Welcome to the New Justice. I watched a High School teacher lose his job, his home and his family, because he was accused by young female student of molesting her. After about two years she confessed she had made it all up because he had failed her on a test or whatever. Today, you can accuse a Mother of child abuse if she smacks her child in a store for touching and the Welfare Dept may come and take the child away as was done in Conn. Liberals love to accuse and then have the accused prove their innocence. We have allowed the media instead of War Correspondants to be apart of the Operations. Bad decision. When one gets injured the story shifts from the War and the fighting soldier to the Newsperson and why weren't they protected etc etc. We have flipped our lids, Denis. We accuse without merit and the accusations being made today would have been scourned during WWII. I fully agree with trials for those who murder women and children and rape them. If they are guilty, FIRING SQUAD. It is a war, but wars are fought with a degree of decency, you don't pilerage the ones you are trying to help and you don't rape them and treat them the same as some garbage. NO Failure by Bush what SIMPLE COMMAND could end this?

2. We have turned over the Bulk of the interior defense to the Iraqis. We are advisors and the such and it took a bit of presuading to get the Marines to go in and do what they did a year ago. We are NOT occupiers, remember? and we can not act like Occupiers. We are there to help. We need to have permission not just from our Government but from the Iraqis as well. NO Failure by Bush, but by defination of mission. What SIMPLE COMMAND could allow to enter the Cities and flush the terrorists out without Iraqi apporval?

3. Political Assinations are unacceptable in the U.N. or any World Order. Is that really the way you want the U.S. to be? I rather see some Diplomacy mixed with the force and not just BLIND FORCE, that was Hitler's and Stalin's Way. NO Failure by anyone what SIMPLE COMMAND could eliminate him and not get the U.S. thrown under the bus?

4.Invade Pakistan? under what premise? wow! let's have a World War created by the U.S. let's not just talk about the merits of Iraq, let's invade everyone. That should make every Arab love us more. Denis, slow down. We are not going to spend billions over ONE man and mostly if that man can be defeated in other ways. We chose the other ways and they have been working, well now that the New York Times made a few dollars over a story that sold out U.S. Info. Now! once the Taliban has beem fully reformed and they enter in from Pakistan, we can have another Turkey Shoot. Until we have something to react to, I don't think we can be agressive to another country. NO Failure by anyone, just God Awful terrain and no bases to work from, no operatives, no highways, only can work from established areas a few clicks at a time. Aerial Recon only shows mountains and lots of shadows where Armies could hide and not be seen. what SIMPLE COMMAND would be given to create this, I am afraid this is thin ice for us?

5. Can't close the borders until it is agreed on by the Majority. There have been over 40 Presidents prior to George. I think the borders will be closed for that seems to be the fervor of the people. It is a BIG ISSUE now but never was before. Thanks to Web forums, internet and means of getting people alerted. what SIMPLE COMMAND that would not piss God knows who off?
....

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