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Limiting Eminent Domain

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wingwiper
Join Date: Jun 2004
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2006-06-24          131346


Not too long ago we were all talking about Eminent Domain
and how Private property was being seized for malls.
Well President Bush signed an Executive Order to limit it.
Taken from Foxnews.com, today June 25, 2006


Bush Signs Executive Order Limiting Eminent Domain Powers of Federal Government


WASHINGTON — President Bush declared Friday that the federal government can only seize private property for a public use such as a hospital or road.
The president signed an executive order in response to a Supreme Court decision granting local governments broad power to bulldoze people's homes to make way for private development.
It was the one-year anniversary of the controversial Supreme Court decision in a case involving New London, Conn., homeowners.
The majority opinion from the divided court limited homeowners rights, by saying that local governments could take private property for purely economic development-related projects because the motive was bringing more jobs and tax revenue to the city.
But the court also noted that states are free to pass additional protections if they see fit, and many have done so, prohibiting so-called takings for shopping malls or other private projects.
Sen. John Cornyn, R-Texas, welcomed Bush's executive order. But since the federal government has only a limited role in these types of projects, he said Congress must do more. Cornyn has introduced legislation that would also bar federal funding for any state or local projects in which the land was obtained through eminent domain


"The protection of homes and small businesses and other private property against government seizure or unreasonable government interference is a fundamental principle of American life and a distinctive aspect of our form of government," Cornyn said. "The Supreme Court's decision last year represented a radical departure from the decisions handed down interpreting that constitutional provision over the last 200 years, and the president's action was an important step toward righting that wrong."
Many conservatives — particularly in the West — see takings as an unjustified abuse of individual rights by government. Cities, though, backed by many liberals see the takings power as an important tool for urban renewal projects crucial to revitalizing cities.


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Chief
Join Date: Jul 2003
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2006-06-24          131349


Unfortunately, this appears to be more pre-election political and meaningless BS than anything else. The same sex marriage ammendment flopped as did the flag burning amendment, so I guess this is the latest attempt to throw our attention away from their lack of accomplishments. There are just too many exclusions and exceptions. The republicans will impress me when they do something REAL like TOTALLY repeal the estate tax or FULLY enforce exhisting immigration law. ....

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wingwiper
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2006-06-24          131350


Chief

The Republicans TRIED to repeal the Estate Tax it was the Democrats who blocked it. 51 to 47 and the leading Democrat made the comment " they owe it to the country that has given them the oppurtunity" So Chief, I think your beef is with the Dems, the Repubs can't do it alone.
You could call anything that is being worked on in an Election year (every two years) a show and then just stop everything on the Second and Fourth year. NOTHING would get done.
I think Bush made a good effort.
You can't blame the Republicans if the Democrats want to Block every friggin Bill or load it with so much Pork it isn't the same any more.
It wasn't the Repubs that prevented the Marriage Amendment from getting off of the ground.
The Democrats Love to block and then blame the Repubs for not getting anything done. Why just look at how long Leahy stalled the Supreme Court Justice nominations or Kennedy and his Historic stalls. Come on now Chief,. you really have to be fair and in so doing blame the Democrats for their two-sided, forked-tongue techiniques.
By signing the Executive Order, President Bush has raised the flag to what his intentions are, now watch very closley to who prevents it from being passed. I assure you it will NOT be the Republicans. ....

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wingwiper
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2006-06-25          131353


Chief

actually from what I have been able to find out, an EXECUTIVE ORDER is an order issued by the President and will stay in effect until Amended by a following President. It does not seem to need a Vote.
I went to google and did a Executive order search and was able to see all of the Executive orders signed by each president and the ones that were Amended.
So it seems for ALL practicle purposes the Eminent Domain E.O. is not exactly a Law but is requested by the President to be enforced which is better than nothing. The Congress or the Senate can now take it upon themselves to introduce a Bill and pass the Bill into Law that will eliminate the needs for further exsistance of the Presidental EO, but by the exsistance of the EO would be a pretty damn good endorsement, in both directions. ....

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Iowafun
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2006-06-25          131359


Don't get me started on the estate tax law that got defeated. The Dems pushed back saying it would reduce much needed tax revenue. But if you apply LOGICAL thinking to how it was written, it would have actually increased tax revenue while allowing small business owners to pass their businesses to their family upon their death. But the Dems who ran some account office applies some seriously messed up math that even a 1st grade student would know was wrong. So they got a good bill killed and we all suffer for it. ....

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Peters
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2006-06-25          131365


The executive order only limits the federal government agencies from expropreating private land for none general public related applications. It seems to me that the expropreation cases of note have been state and local governments. In other words as Chief said, so what!!
Just a way to appear to be doing something with no cost and no real effect, but it did get air play on Fox and some other media out lets.
To have real teeth the republicans in both houses need to pass new laws supporting the constitutional rights to private ownership. As the businesses wanting the expropreation like Pfizer for their gain are likely greasing the Republican wheels. We propably have a snowballs chance in hell of it happening. ....

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kthompson
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2006-06-26          131373


Okay, here is your chance...this hit Friday in email to me through my industry which follows this very closely.



Subject: Estate Tax Battle Returns to U.S. Senate

The debate over the future of the estate tax has reverted back to the U.S. Senate. I must call upon you again to contact one or both of the Senators from your state listed below to ask them to support reasonable compromise reform legislation on the estate tax.

These Senators likely hold the key to the outcome:

Arkansas - Sen. Mark Pryor (D)
Louisiana - Sen. Mary Landrieu (D)
Maine - Sen. Olympia Snowe (R) and Sen. Susan Collins (R)
Ohio - Sen. George Voinovich (R)
Oregon – Sen. Ron Wyden (D)
Washington - Sen. Maria Cantwell (D) and Sen. Patty Murray (D)
Background

The House of Representatives passed an estate tax “reform” bill, H.R. 5638, yesterday by a vote of 269 to 156. The vote was never in doubt. The Senate could take up H.R. 5638 as early as next Tuesday. The Senate took up estate tax repeal on June 8, 2006, but was unable to muster the 60 votes to overcome a filibuster.

H.R. 5638, authored by Rep. Bill Thomas (R CA), was written specifically to attract support from the above list of Senators. The key features of H.R. 5638 are:

An exempt amount of $5 million for each individual ($10 million for a married couple).
The exempt amount would become effective in 2010 and indexed thereafter.
Taxable estates above $5 million and up to $25 million will face a top rate of the capital gains rate, currently set at 15%.
Taxable estates above $25 million will be subject to a top rate that is double the capital gains rate.
Currently the capital gains rate is 15%, but that rate sunsets in 2010 and would increase to 20% if Congress does not act.
....

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DenisS
Join Date: May 2006
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2006-06-27          131406


Is this the same president Bush who benefited from the eminent domain seisure of private property for the building of a new baseball stadium for the Texas Ranger when he was a part owner of the team? Kind of hypocrytical, isn't it?

Also, does it take 1 year for the president to digest the meaning of the Supreme Court decision on eminent domain? he's even slower on the uptake than I thought.

I think Chief put it exactly right. ....

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wingwiper
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2006-06-27          131418


Denis

I do not know where your information comes from, first, President Bush was NOT the owner of the Texas Rangers he was a Managing Partner. An Investment Group was the Legal Owner. Second, I do not see where President Bush used any Eminent Doamin to build the stadium and from what I have read, "Ameriquest Field was built on one of the old Arlington Stadium parking lots. Thus, the irregular dimensions of the outfield were planned independently rather than forced by neighboring structures"
As far as the year that President Bush took is not fair to assume he is the Sole Law Maker. Congress and the Senate have done NOTHING to safe guard the property of the Private Citizens, President Bush by creating the EO has made it very clear what his position is on the subject, it would be nice to hear from the ones who should be getting off of their asses and doing something. So far nothing.
I am being curretly entertained by Senator Leahy who feels Flag Desecration is Free Speech and that throwing Red Paint on the Whiter House is not. So the Senate and the Congress is who is dragging their feet, not President Bush, he can ONLy sign into law what has made it through the prior levels first.
If you have proof of President Bush beingbehind any Eminent Domain Seizures, I would ove to read it, otherwise I will file the comments along with Michael Moore's and Dan Rather/s and john Kerry's. Not to be hostile, but I do not like attacking people without TRUE Facts.
Here is what I have found
"Future U.S. President George W. Bush becomes Managing Partner
Meanwhile, in April of 1989, the Rangers' owner, Eddie Chiles, sold the team to an investment group headed by future President George W. Bush. Bush would serve as the Rangers' managing partner until he was elected Governor of Texas in 1994. During this time, the Rangers and the City of Arlington decided to construct a new stadium to replace the aging Arlington Stadium. Ground was broken on October 30, 1991 on what would become The Ballpark in Arlington (later renamed Ameriquest Field in Arlington).
Funding was approved for a new home for the Texas Rangers in 1991 by the City of Arlington. Construction began on April 2, 1992 a short distance away from Arlington Stadium, the ballpark it would replace, and the new Ballpark in Arlington was opened on April 1, 1994 in an exhibition contest between the Texas Rangers and the New York Mets. The first official game was on April 11 against the Milwaukee Brewers.
The Rangers chose to build a retro-style ballpark along the lines of Oriole Park at Camden Yards and Jacobs Field. However, unlike those stadiums, which were situated on irregular plots of land in crowded downtown areas, Ameriquest Field was built on one of the old Arlington Stadium parking lots. Thus, the irregular dimensions of the outfield were planned independently rather than forced by neighboring structures.
This stadium was the site of the 1995 MLB All-Star Game. It also hosted the first regular season interleague game on June 12, 1997, when the Rangers played the San Francisco Giants.
On May 7, 2004, Rangers owner Tom Hicks announced that he had negotiated a sale of the naming rights of the stadium to home mortgage company Ameriquest. The contract was worth $75 million over 30 years.
The home plate and foul poles were originally at the old Arlington Stadium"
....

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dsg
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2006-06-27          131467


Wouldn't it be nice if the good old US of A was lead/president by a regular US citizen not a mega-rich Mogul. someone who knows the poor and middle class can't afford an Estate tax to pass onto their heirs. Or knows why the working poor need a tax break because gas cost so dam much, wouldn't it be nice?

David
....

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AV8R
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2006-06-27          131471


The estate tax is unconstitutional by any definition. The money in the estate has already been taxed once when earned. Taxing it again is unfair and illeagal.

This tax is one of the main reasons you don't see family farms any more. $5 million is very easy to amass in a small farming operation.

You talk of working poor and gas credits, dsg. How can they get a tax break from the federal government when they pay no federal income tax?

"From each according to thier ability,
To each according to thier need."

Sound familiar? It is the communist creedo. Coming soon to an America near you. Just elect a liberal of your choosing. ....

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DenisS
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2006-06-28          131475


WW,

here you go - I tried posting this link yesterday - it disappeared in some cyber black hole.

David,

Politicians are the lowest of life-forms; the most honest of them don't get elected higher than the town council. So I don't know how you're gonna get a good ol' regular American to (1) agree to take this job and then (2) get elected. I think the best way to deal with the politicians is to limit the influence they have over our lives, but that would mean getting rid of "social safety nets" and this society is too addicted to handouts to go for it. ....


Link:   bush land grab

 
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jdcman
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2006-06-28          131485



AV8R,

Socialism is already heavily embedded in the US culture. Make no mistake about it we are an entitlement based state. You need look no further than the current federal tax statutes.

The party that steps up and cuts from the herd to demand that every American pay their share to support this country gets my vote.

You cut out this socialism and entitlement crap and the bugs will stop trying to get into house.

Unfortunately I doubt that either party will support the fiscal or social reforms needed to right the ship.
....

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wingwiper
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2006-06-28          131486


David
President Bush is a Regular Citizen, just as much as you or me or anyone else. What ceiling would you put on a person's earnings before, in your mind, they are NO Longer a regular Cittizen? Bush Sr served in WWII and was shot down in Japanese held waters that were Shark infested. So as a regular Citizen, he served. Bush Jr served over 600 days in a 6 year Guard Term that is usually only 35 days per year, so he served too. They made their money from the ground up, not like the Kennedys who got their money from the Mob. What is a regular guy to you?
Bush is a Republican and the Republicans wanted to eliminate the Estate Tax and it was the Democrats who blocked it. It was the Republicans who have gotten you the Simplified Tax System, and it is the Republicans who have Never tried to get to your Social Security Money as have the Democrats to cover their wild spending. The Republicans allowed the DOW which had never been over 1000 to climb over 6000 during one President's term and continue to go up even through a do nothing Democrat who rode on the good of the pst and then when Bush jr got back, everything that had been working had been destroyed. NAFTA was a Democrat deal, Selling out to China was a Democrat Deal, extending your retirement age was a Democrat deal, wanting to make Illegal Aliens U.S. Citizens and let them recieve YOUR Social Security money was a Democrat deal, Balance Budget Amendments was defeated by Democrats, decreasing the military Democrats, Unions Democrats, Poor Schools systems Democrats, the Democrats had control for 46 years so the reputation of the U.S. Govt was created by Democrats.
Bush is NOT a mega rich Mogul unless you compare him to a Homeless person. He invested $600,000 dollars and made a great return, well the Stock Market or the choices are there for you as well. If you are making BAD choices don't blame people who hae made GOOD choices for your failures. How much of your Earnings do you share with Charity? How often do you lend a hand to make some one else's life better? then how can you judge anyone else? Gas Prices are NOT controlled by the Government, Oil is a commodity and sold to the Highest Bidder, you don't like the price of Gas, then Buy a Horse, you have other Alternatives and there is NO GUARANTESS you will have a Car in your Garage or gas to run it. That is NOT a Government issue, unless you are part of the DOD.

Denis

You call Politicians the Lowest form and then you expect someone decent to answer your calling? Yeah right! You are right about the Hand outs tho, that is how the Democrats have been getting elected for years, they don't run on Issues they run on what the Govt will do for you, meaning. I will take 6 trillion out of your pockets and give you a Nice park to go to, or I will help pay for 20,000 Union Police for two years and then they are ALL yours. They BUY you and they BUY you with Hand outs for Votes.
Also Denis
President Bush had no interest in the Texas Rangers after 1994, your link was accusing him in 1997. I think you have a link of not Facts, but a pissed off Democrat who makes up shit as he goes along because he hates Republicans. I need you to link me to some solid facts about Bush grabbing land illegally not some editor who is running his mouth and hoping that some of what he says is true. If Texas can be controlled by a man that much, then you have failure of Local and State Government and that seems to be the people's fault. Majority Rules and I do not see how ONE MAN can convince the state or anyone unless they want to be convinced. I think the link is Hogwash and is only opinion and has no reference to facts just speculation. Sorry. Not good enough.
I hear people spit garbage everyday abnout the President, and I challenge their spits and I find that 99.9% of the spits have NO SYUBSTANCE but based on hate with no full understadning why they hate, other than he is a member of the party that they are not. That is typical Party Flag Flying and this country is heading into a ditch if we doesn't stop it. If I made the speculations about you or your sister or your Mother or your family as the Press and people of this country do, I would hear Lawsuits everywhere and yet people feel they can openly bash a Politicain with no merit, no facts just the Freedom of Speech clause....No wonder they can't pass the Flag Desecration Bill. People have lost their Honor, Pride, Integerty, Honesty, Morals, Patriotism and so much more. It has been replaced with Blind Tolerance for the ignorant and the immoral and the Uncivil. Criminals are looked at as peope who need to be treated with Digity and yet people can't even recall their victims' names.
President Bush has done a Great Job and I may not 100% agree with everything he has done but I look at the Curcumstances that have befallen on him and how we have coninued along and complained about the price of Gas. LOL
Let's see we have Attacked the Taliban and Afghanistan is on a fast pace to becomeing econmically sound and people are walking their streets. we have put Saddam in check and taken out two major WMDs, his sons. We have done alot in Iraq but for those who only read or listen to the News whose reports are only on the BURNING house it must seem awful dim to you all. We have had TWO Major Hurricanes, We have had A Major Terroist Attack that wiped out the WTCs and yet peope are bitching about the price of gasoline and how much money they think Bush has. Pretty pathetic people. Pretty pathetic. This country has not been attacked since 2001 and yet we were attacked in 93 and again with the USS COLE, and Nirobi. Our Emabssies seem to be safer than before and as much as I think Isreal is a bad guy, I totally agree with their attacks. why? because it sends a message, you attack one of our people and All Hell will come down on you. Why not? Want to send in Cake instead? ....

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DenisS
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2006-06-28          131489


WW,

You're dead wrong about the Kennedys - they did not get their money from the mob - they WERE the mob.

On Bush, let's see:
1) The national debt is at over $8 trillion thanks in good part to his expansion of medicare and federal education programs and foreign aid (15 billion to fight AIDS in Africa and so on)
2) Several million well paying manufacturing/high tech jobs have left the country during Bush's term in office - yet he pushes further globalization with CAFTA. (and it was Bush's daddy who signed onto GATT and NAFTA - then, when Clinton was elected, it was congress republicans who helped to ratify these treaties).
3) It'll be 5 years since 911 in two months and Bin Laden is still at large - instead we've wasted close to $300 billion instituting Jeffersonian democracy in some sand pit in the middle east.
4) Millions of illegals pour over the borders while Bush campaigns in Spanish for economic opportunities for the down-trodden economic masses.

Great job? give me a break. ....

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wingwiper
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2006-06-28          131492


Denis

LOL you are right about the Kennedys I was wrong.
The National Debt is over 8 trillion not because of Bush.
You have Trade Deficits in there, Foriegn Bonds etc etc. That is a debt that has been growing since WWII and not snce 02. We make junk and do it at High Wages, what do you expect?
Your several Million well paid jobs, aren't really several million and the Bush Administration has created millions of NEW job and not just McDonalds. Many of the jobs you refer to were lost due to Democrats and their Union Buddies. Auto Manufacturers relocated to Canada and Mexico instead of paying the Union Workers in Detroit rediculous wages for shabby work performance. $40 to $50 per hour for assembly line work?? come on, these Union Pukes feel if a comapany makes a profit, they are entitled to it. That is why many of your so-called High jobs left, because the Companies refused to be held hostage any longer by the Union workers. G.E., IBM, Auto Manufacturers etc etc all for the same reason, WAGES. Not becaue of Bush or Reagan. NAFTA was launched in January 1994 and that was during Clinton, GATT was first signed in 1947. The Republicans did not take majority control until 96.
Wasted 300 billion? Denis, that is a pretty insulting statement. You think this war is about Bin Laden? it it a WAR on Terrorists and all Countries who harbor them or safeguard them. It was never Pronounced on Bin Laden or the Taliban or the Al Qaeda it was Declared on Terrorists. Bin Laden is one and Saddam was a bigger one, read the evidence of the documents that were found where Zarqawi met his 70 Virgins. There is far more evidence of Iraq's role in terrorsits than ever before. There are Money Trails leading to Saddam and during the Food For Oil France, Germany and Russia fed Saddam more money, more weapons and more technology, his Army grew as did terrorism all disguised under Food for Oil. The $300 million was well spent and the reason we are fighting in that Sand Pit is the reason we are NOT fighting in L.A. or Chicago or NYC. Their Govt is theirs and they are entitled to basic Life as much as anyone else on this Planet. That was a rather selfish statement and I know for fact that the majority of the KIAs in Iraq and Afghanistan belived they were making a difference and wanted to help. 75% of the U.S. Military Voted to re-elect President Bush, because we believe in what we are doing even if you do not.
Millions have been pouring over our borders long before Bush, yet you seem to be suddenly demanding somethibg to be done. Where was this interest for the 8 years of Clinton? too busy saying he was allowed as a Married man to get a Blow Job in the Oval Office on OUR time? too busy supporting the bombing of the Aspirin Factory in Sudan? Not concerned about the 600 Super Computers the W-88 Multi-Strike Nuclear War Head given to China by Clinton? or were you concerned with the Technology for the delivery systems that were sold, whoops I mean given to China as well? Were you concerned when China launched a man in Space or did you feel that their space program had GOOD intentions? Don't you feel it is the results of the 600 Super Computers and the LR Tech that was given to them and what you are seeing is LONG RANGE WEAPON TECH in disguise as a Space Program? Weren't you concerned the day before Clinton's testimony when he bombed Iraq? why did he? were you concern that hours before his trial he fired 20 something Tomahawks at a suspected terrorsit camp in Afghanistan? I didn't hear any complaining when Clinton went behind CLOSED doors with Shelton and Cohen and was making plans for their next target. Congress would scamble in the following days to give Fake support to Clinton to save face for his blunders, yet the country stood silent and rallied around Clinton.
GREAT JOB? yes! more people are at work, Diasters have been avoided and rebuilt, the military is better trained and have quality leaders, schools are being held accountable, Tax Cuts (10% is the same for everyone in percentage and yes will be greater in $s for those who earn more. that is just simple Math) The War is there and not here, we have NOT been attacked, attention has been brought to the borders and unlike the 100 years prior somethings is happening as is with the efforts to pass the Estae Reform Bill, Same Sex Marriage Ban, Social Security being called OFF LIMITS to the Govt, except the Democrats refuse to pass it, Fraud in Welfare has been sought, investigated and punished, delicate treaties worked out, Economy is stable, and on and on. Yes! great job, Clinton used hundreds of billions of the Social Security Surplus to balance his spending and Bush called for a Bill to keep the Govt away from the Money. Clinton had several dozen of his people quit after his first term, Bush has had a few but not dozens. Clinton issued Pardons to some shady people, had the FBI investigating him for Personnel Files, over 50 people met questionable deaths under the Clinton Terms, deaths that are there for any one to read about and question. Vince Foster, Ron Brown being the two most curious. No! denis as compared to Bill and Hilary, President Bush has doen a great job and he has had to do a alot of cleaning up.
No One is perfect and I do not claim Bush is, far from it, but Hate him for Facts of his performance and not here say or speculations, or false bashing. ....

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DenisS
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2006-06-28          131493


This is off topic anymore, but the companies never complain when they charge american public based on american incomes, regardless where they make their products. Look at drug prices. US consumers pay at least 50% more than people on other countries mostly because the companies assume we can afford it. I'm not for price controls, but what I am for is fair trading practices where a company that wants to sell products in the US must either make that product in the US or compensate the US in the form of import tarrifs for underpaying their workers elsewhere in the world. I have no problem with American assembly workers making $50 an hour if it allows them to maintain a high standard of living, what's wrong with that? When assembly plants move north or south of the border or oversees, the majority of the Americans involved in the business (assembly workers, middle management) gets screwed and the top brass continue to collect their obscene pay packages. Bottom line is this: you want to sell it here - pay the wages here. And our good ol' buddy Bush and his papa have been sell out globalist free traders all their lives. The Bushes have been in the white house in presidential or vice-presidential capacity for 18 out of the last 26 years. For six of the Clinton years republicans were in control of congress. All these years later we have WTO, GATT, NAFTA and a host of other trade deals that completely gutted the US manufacturing capacity. And you expect me to hold the republican establishment blameless? All I'm saying here is, I've had enough of BS from the pubbies, we need a new party and we need it fast. ....

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Peters
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2006-06-28          131495


WW - Obviously you are on the Bush political band wagon. That is acceptable, but lets get history straight. The idea that George HW or George H were self made is completely wrong. If you can see the silver spoons you must be blind.

Seldon Prescott Bush was an rail road executive and then a steel company president. Prescott Bush his son was sent to boarding school and prep. school and then Yale. He was part of the elite Skull and Bones. He was involved with a number of businesses including UBC bank which paid out a fortune in 51. He was handed elite positions through out his career. He was involved with military intelligence in WWI.

George HW. Greenwich Country day school and then Phillips Academy Prep. school. His stint in the Navy then Yale and the Skull and bones.

George H. Phillips Academy Prep school and then Yale and the Skull and Bones.

Most of us could not afford to send our children to Yale let alone the Phillips Academy, if they would accept them. Self made? Which back room business connections don't you understand? What do you think the University Club is all about? Your friends allow you to place a small amount of money on an inside deal and you walk away with you pocket full. You get into politics and get appointments and then work this into bigger money and line the pockets of the friends that helped you out. It doesn't matter that it is really stealing from the electorate they are just stupid peons. ....

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2006-06-28          131496


Have not read much of the last 3 or so post but still will ask my question...I posted a notice on what was going on and who was affecting it (estate taxes)....Just wonder...how many of us rather rant and range and think that took care of it and how many took three minutes and placed a call?

It amazes me how often we don't let our politicians know or even vote and wonder why such happens. Well my friends you vote every time you spend a dollar. So how do you vote? If the local tractor dealer is really a cheat and a liar but you buy from him does he have reason to change?

We had primary run off yesterday and I voted and am disappointed with especially one race but I still took action and also espressed my concern with the winners office before the election. Oh Lord ranting and range is more fun and sometimes really needed but not without other action. Makes me think of a hunter with a gun loaded with blanks. ....

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2006-06-28          131505


denis

You have a Valid concern with Drug prices, providing it is Prescriptio you are referring to smile. We have allowed our reps not just republicans to Tax everything in sight, from Property to Beer, to whatever. Howard Dean invented a Tax here in Vermont called the SIN Tax, first he drove us to drinking and then taxed us on the drinking. rooms and Meals Tax, Fuel Tax and I have no Doubt there is taxes embedded in your drug Prices that aren't on foriegn shores, like Cigarettes.
We have a Tax Hungry Governemnt and Denis, That is the DEMOCRATS, they have fought every single Tax Cut Legislation ever to be brought up. When the Estate Tax weas defeated Frist was outraged and the leading Democrat said " they owe it to the country which gave them the opportunity" Good God.
FREE ENTERPRISE is not to be Govenern except by itself. If you don't like the price, don't pay. Our problem is people are becoming STUPID, they continue to buy regardless, so compaines continue to raise the price. all fair and I do NOT want Socialism to solve the problem but rather have consumer rage solve it.
Companies do NOT owe their employess anything. I hire you with the understanding I will pay you $10 per hour and you accept, I make a profit and you bitch you want more. Companies are NOT obligated to share their profits with their Employees only their Shareholders. Any company has a right or an obligation to protect their bottom line and if moving out of the country is what it takes, then the Stockholders are happy. You are right, employees are NOT guaranteed a thing, but any employee has an choice to open thier own company if they are not happy.
The Global Market has been very important since 1964 when the U.S. no longer used Gold or Silver to back their money but rather the World Market. It isn't just about a Bush sr or Bush jr idea it is somethingthat the U.S. has to play in or the Trade deficits wil conintue to grow and the Euro and the Canadian Dollar will go way past the value of the U.S. dollar and if you think things are bad now, well when your dollar shrinks even more and no body wants the U.S. currency, we will be in a depression likes have never been seen before. We need to stay strong on the World Market.
The Canadian dollar has gone from 50 cents on the U.S. dollar to 92 cents in just 5 years. They have strengthen by 42 cents per U.S. dollar and we have lost buying power, now Denis keep it mind with that, that the Canadians are where we get the most Oil from and as our dollar depreciates against theirs, the price of oil will seem to be going up when in reality it isn't, it is YOUR dollar losing value. It is all revelant for the U.S. to stay healthy. It isn't just babout the Bushes who like Globalization.
The Bushes have been in the White House for that long because they have been VOTED in by the MAJORITY. IKE did 12 years by himself.
Once agin GATT started in 1947, NAFTA was signed in 1994. So I have no doubt that if the Republicans did NOT have majority until January 95, then it was a Democrat push. Hold them blameless? NO! The Repubs were highly outnembered but not blameless. NAFTA passed by a vote of 61 to 38. The Senate passed the Dominican Republic-Central American Free Trade Agreement in one of the closest votes – 54 to 45. So blameless, Absolutely NOT. Here is an interview with Joe Liberman and why the Democrats voted for NAFTA and also his kinda hard views on Bush with China.
http://www.issues2000.org/2004/Joseph_Lieberman_Free_Trade.htm http://www.issues2000.org is an excellent site for seeing how people stand and how people are viewed. Also note that Kennedy, Harkin and John Kerry voted for NAFTA

....

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2006-06-28          131508


Peters

you said "WW - Obviously you are on the Bush political band wagon. That is acceptable, but lets get history straight. The idea that George HW or George H were self made is completely wrong. If you can see the silver spoons you must be blind."

I said "
They made their money from the ground up, not like the Kennedys who got their money from the Mob. What is a regular guy to you?"

I was referring to the family and not the Individual. Slow down when you read Peters....smile. They did not earn money as in Royalty or as in Kings and Queens. They did not get involved with the Mob, Mafia, or Drug Running. They made their wealth 100% legally and 100% in a way that any of you can make it in.
You seem to have a itch for successful people and yet we are sitting here typing on computers that a man worth tens of Billions is making money from.
I raise my own food, I hunt for it, I fish for it, I have a Large Garden, I have a $700 car, yes! a $700 car. I heat with Wood and Coal and I am happy on my 10.5 acres and I have NO hatred towards any man who took a risk and made good of it. I do NOT feel I am owed moeny from the Gates or the Rockerfellas or the Kennedy's, well maybe the Kennedy's It use to drink IMported Scotch. I do feel I am owed by those who make their money by prying off of the innocent and the use people as victims. The Bushes made their money from the ground up, they didn't win the Mega Bucks or what have you. So my History is just fine Peters. Thanks.
Bush Band Wagon? No! I don't think so, but the Shit slinging is getting Old and everyone is an expert at Hating the OTHER Party. I am tired of the Micaheal Moores and the Dan Rathers and the John Kerry's and the Howard Deans and others who feel they are entitled to sling shit and not have to prove their own positions. No one is perfect and everyone has a basket full of blunders. But you know what? Soon because of the way we bash our Politicians the devision from the people will grow, just like it has with the Police and then sooner or later, no one wil want to have the job for its rightful reasons but rather for its POWER. We are quick to judge and slow to gain the proper info first.
You all can HAte Bush, that is your choice, but smears and B.S. to slam the President is B.S. in itself. No one here understands the whole picture of FREE TRADE and no one wa shere for the Senate or the Congressional Debates. No one here has the survey cheets or the research findings or the teams of Experts, they only have the Sound Bytes, the News stories, the Gossip, the Opinions of opinated people. We are not the EXPERTS. I fully agree we need to TRUST and yet VERIFY but there are far better tactful ways of doing it. I am have seen plenty of Military Experts who dictate how to fight battles and yet have never worn a uniform or been to any type of War College.

....

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2006-06-28          131510


WW,
I'm sure no economist, but I'll tell you this: the way you keep the dollar strong is you make products that can be bought with that dollar - what in the nookies are we making now a days except for rap videos? We should have maintained a strong manufacturing base, but we've lost it thanks to the globalists. This country grew most prosperous when trade tariffs protected domestic production between late 18th century and early 20th. Thats a FACT. Globalists like to threaten people with a Depression if protectionist policies are implemented. BS!!! We had the great depression because of an overheated market of the 20's, not because of protection tariffs.

The thing is, the original tariffs were instituted because US businesses wanted them, now the US businesses find it cheaper to produce oversees and the tariffs are gone. But it is the NATION as a whole that suffers when corporations off-shore production. When a man looses his well paying job and the pride that comes with it, it not only effect him but his family and his community. When millions of Americans loose meaningful jobs and are forced to take menial positions in the service industry, that has a degenerative impact on the morale of the entire Nation. We become a nation of loosers instead of a Nation of builders. And for what? So that a quarterly report can beat the forecast by a couple of pennies? Avarice has been the downfall of men and globalism is the ultimate, total and most corrupt expression of greed. Do you know where the number 666 in the relevations comes from? Read 1 Kings 10:13-15 in the scripture and you'll see what is the true nature of the antichrist. ....

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2006-06-28          131514


Denis

You have a GREAT Descussion going here, Thanks.

Tariffs can not Protect the American Worker and it was not the Protections that made others want our products, it was the innovacations of the Products, the quality, the craftsmanship etc. Unions destroyed most of that. People stood around with their hands in their pockets feeling time on the floor will give them the pay raises. Self Pride has vanished, devotion has vanished, Americans have become Lazy and with the feeling it is OWED to them and because it is AMERICAN it will JUST sell. Someone said it earlier, we have become the Nation of Handouts.
I had a kid I had hired at 16 as a Stock Boy, His job was to put away the shipements and learn the products that we carried. When he became of Age. I hired him as a Salesman, he had a real Basic Understanding of Audio and Electronics but I knew he had an interest. We paid an Hourly and a Commission based on sales. After one year and a cockiness that was unbearable at times, he told he was going to quit unless I gave him a payriase. I said PAYRAISE? You get your own raise by learning and sellin more and knowing how to qualify the customer and then sell what they need as add-ons. He said " I am worth $9.00 per hour" Geez! the wage then was $4.50 or maybe 4.75 he felt he was worth $9.00 because he said he was. I told him he had NO resume and he said he didn't need one and off he went. Who knows maybe he got his $9.00 per hour. But that5 is the attitude, everyone wants to get the check and no one wants to earn it nor do they have the patience to work their way up, they just want to be up.
NO! Denis I do not want Laws, regulations and Tariffs to force people to buy my product, I wan them to buy my product, because it is the best, made by the best and has Pride and devotion in each and everyone. It ismade with American Quality and Not Union Production. It has a Craftsmanship to it and not sloppily thrown together to beat the Time Clock. When Americans take Pride in themselves our Products will once again be the envy of the manufacturing world, Laws will only keep the higher quality Imports from coming in but the rest of the world will still be buying theirs and not ours, unless we wake up. No one will be told they have to buy American. Hell this site is about Tractors that aren't American. why? quality ain't here so why pay high wages when you can get the same quality for less wages elsewhere? Put the Pride back and the product would be able to be sold for more etc etc etc ....

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2006-06-28          131515


WW,

You're talking about fair competion where the only variable is quality. If the competition is fair, I'll buy a better product no matter where it's made. That's why I drive a Toyota disguised as a Chevy Prism. The average quality of a japanese vehicle is simply better than that of a comparable american made car. And there is no arguement that better quality in the japanese products has had a positive effect on the quality of American products.

But I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about Nike building a factory in Indonesia and making sneakers there while paying 50 cents an hour and avoiding costs associated with occupational safety and environmental protections. Then they turn around and sell that pair of sneakers in the US for $125, while it might have cost them $5 to make that pair.

I'm talking about American workers getting screwed out of their incomes because the transnationals can make a better profit making their products oversees.

Do they have the right to do with their businesses as they please? Sure!

Do we collectively, as Americans, have a right to protect our common prosperity by punishing imports and encouraging domestic production? You bet!

Would I treat European or Japanese imports same as I would treat Chinese imports? Hell no! Because Europe and Japan do not compete with us on the basis of undercutting wages, like the Chinese do, but rather on the basis of producing better quality manufacture.

That's what I mean by replacing the "free trade" with Fair Trade. ....

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2006-06-28          131516


denis

You want to control the import of Foriegn Products? How long before they Boycott us?
People pay $125 for the Nike Sneakers because they feel it is a Better product. The Americans have the feeling you can buy American in Wal-MArt or K-Mart and if you want quality go to the better quality stores. How are you going to change that perception, denis? Laws and import tariffs will just put America in a back seat and the foriegners will buy other foriegn products. Americans don't even buy American, how are you going to get the rest of the world to do so?
I am afraid with the Internet, Global Travel, and Global Communications the era of selling to Isolated consumers is over. The ONLY way the U.S. is ever going to get back in the fracas is to make better products, stop cutting corners and hire people who want to work and make a better product that won't be looking over their shoulders every two minutes at the Time Clock.
The U.S. has 300 million consumers that will not buy American if the quality isn't there, period. Laws will only prolong the agony and isolate us even more. It is a World economy now and not a Country by country economy. We need to wake up and get rid of the lazy and the leeches and start promoting on merit and performance and paying the same way. As long as we have Unions we will be stuck with a limited amount of good workers and stuck with an abundance of workers who know how to take the FREE RIDE. Companies who sell junk will be short lived, if no one buys their products. Japan isn't even the sole importer to the U.S. as they use to be, now they are in competition with other countries as well, so they were smart, they kept their quality and focused not just on the U.S. but the whole world as their market place. We need to do the same. Sorry Denis, the age has come where talking to someone in Europe for nothing and in real time is NOW. We have foriegners right here on this site and most don't have a clue who they are. It isn't a local Site for JUST local people, the world has become the NEW BALL PARK.
How many people buy off of the Internet? How are you going to control that? regulate? I have a friend who makes hand made furniture and his stuff is fantastic. Some of his Hutches go for $5000 but they are hand made, hand sanded and hand rubbed to a finish. He understands wood expansion and selects the best wood and not cheap wood that needs Dark Satain to cover up the lousy wood. Local stores don't know how to sell his stuff, so he yanked from the morons and sells exclusively on the Internet hawleysfinewoodworking.com He ships all over the U.S. and Canada and there is no doubt if shipping were cheaper he would be shipping all over the world. His stuff takes a log while to make and it isn't something that is bought over night, nor is there an inventory and everything is a one-of-kind. He is what we need more of and if factories went back to the basics, we would have the business that you speak of, I am not for more regulations, tariffs and laws, and Yes! I beelive if we put Pride and Quality back into our work, we would have all of the business we need. ....

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2006-06-29          131526


WW,

I agree that work ethic is an issue for some although if you took a look around the rest of the civilized countries, you'd see that american workers are still some of the most hardworking in the world.

You're saying that our problems stem mainly from poor quality of our products. That's where I have a hard time communicating my idea. I'll try it again.

I. A consumer will make his choice based mainly on two factors
A. Price of the product
B. Quality of the product

If
A1 = price of product made in the US
B1 = quality of the product made in the US
A2 = price of foreign product
B2 = quality of foreign product
Then the consumer decision equation will nearly ALWAYS be as follows:
B1 - A1 < B2 - A2
if A2 is a negligible number, and it WILL be if your labor and regulatory costs are 10% of what they are in the US.
So much for your competition. Now if you want to pull the equation towards the American side, you have to cut costs and that means cutting wages and you CAN do that, but I DON'T WANT to do that, I want to maintain my standard of living above that of some bushman in Namibia. My predecessors and I earned that standard of living through many generations of hard work and education whereas those Bushmen spent their days since time immemorial picking their noses.

As to loosing foreign markets due to potential boycots, what foreign markets are you talking about? The China market, where we have a $60 billion / month trade deficit? The Mexico market where we are now running a deficit whereas before NAFTA we had a surplus? We have NO MARKETS to loose EXCEPT our own AMERICAN market - which is still be biggest market in the world. If we close our market to cheap imports, where else will chinese sell their junk? Who else will want it / have the money for it? If our markets are closed to cheap imports, there's still going to be a demand for A LOT of consumer products here in the US and people will come back to make those products here.

Re: individual sales over the web - will never replace bulk sales simply because payment for shipping an individual item will never be nearly as low as shipping items in bulk.
And besides, there are simple ways to tax Internet oversees purchases. ....

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2006-06-29          131527


Denis

I am sorry I still do not agree with you.
You think the U.S. Market is the Largest in the world? Then take out Boeing, McDonell-Douglas, General Dynamics, Colt, etc etc What I am telling you is that the Trade is measured in dollars. Our exports for the most part are Military goods, Large tickets and small employments. Now France is starting to compete in the A/C industry as well as russia and GB so how long we are there, time will tell. Back off the Military Products and the A/C and the U.S. becomes a very small exporter. People overseas feel the U.S. products are poor quality and over priced. How do yousolve the problem one of two ways, decrease price which will stimulate the exports briefly, until another country with better quality lowers their price, or Improve quality. The Improve quality starts with the Indiviudal concept of their job and then working for companies where you have pride in working.
I could easily make more money than I do, but prefer to sell the products that I do and I take a great amount of pride in my product. So if you are after ONLY a paycheck and feel you are entitled to a BIG one, then you are part of the problem. People have to willing to sacrifice and having a 60" Plasma is not the measure of success. Peple need to stand tall with teir dignity and their Pride and their Honor and not be willing to give it up for CASH. Unions strip people of Pride, Honor and Dignity and guarantees them good wages. People who stand around allday with their fingers up their ass and their mouth all Chocalote are not helping the U.S. We have lost our Pride and it shows in our Products, we have Lost our Honor and it shows in the short cuts we take and the cover ups we apply to the finish goods, we have lost our Integrety and it shows on how we are willing to keep working for the paycheck for a company who produces crap. Americans have options, they can freely MOVE, but don't, they don't like the hassle, instead they continue to make JUNK and try to make a FAIR competition on hte market by trying to force others to buy ter crap with Tariffs, Regulations etc etc. Sorry, Denis, I feel Americans are getting what they earn, you want money, Greed is born, you want quality Pride is born. Can Ilive like a Rich Man? No, not when there are so many out there making the money and no Pride, am I willing to trade my scrupples for the money? I am 55 and have not yet. I rather learn tolive te simplier life and keep my dignity than trade it for cash. Once the money is gone then I really am a nobody, as long as I have honor, Pride and Interety than I will always have someting.
There is no doubt in my mind tha is where the U.S. is losing it. Why do we even wantto import from China? because people will settle for less quality and less price, but in many areas the quality is equal or better and te price is less why? UNION LABOR, why am I agaisnt the Unions? Unions make the worker feel they own te company, they reward laziness and define a workers job. Let me tell youonelast story.
When I drove truck, I use to dread going into Mass or Conn or the Detroit areas or any UNION Wharehouses. I would back up to the specified loading dock and if there was no one on my dock to unload me, regardless if there was workers on either side, bullshitting, I sat there until the workers assigned to my dock happen to show up. I could not leave, I was locked by my ICC bumper to the loading dock. or I had to pay the wharehouse manager a Large LUMPER fee to unload te product that he ordered and wanted. That Lumper fee went into his pocket and was usually anywheres from $150 to $400 per load. WoW! pretty easy money. The other problem I had with Unions was quitting time, as I said I was locked to the dock and when 5pm came around, even if I had only pallet left on the trailer, I wa sthere until next morning. I got paid by how many loads a week I could do and it was ALWAYS UNION WHAREHOUSES that screwed me. I never had problems in NOn-Union Whare houses, everyone chipped in to help and they would stay the extra ten minutes to get you unloaded and on your way. UNIONS have destroyed this country and they are te problem why we are so over priced for equal or less quality products. The worker feels they are entitled to High Wages regardless and the Unions make sure they are paid, why for another example just look at the N.E.A. and the Teacher's Unions. 188 contract days per year, 100% Insurance coverage and No co-pay, Fringe benifits which are NOT part of salary are the Social Security and otherexpenses that come out of a normal workers paycheck, tey will never stay after school and teach a kid any more, they want more pay and more benifits and are SAT scroes are going downward. There aren't many teachers (Heroes. my ass) left who care about teaching tey are BENIFIT SEEKERS. there is te problem with the U.S. workers.
....

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2006-06-29          131529


WW,

You won't get an argument from me about unions. There's a union in the company I work for and I know exactly what you're talking about. The inmates are running the asylum.
Unionization is ultimately a form of communism and to me the only good commie is a dead commie. At the same time, corporate greed, arrogance and malfeasance is also a big part of the problems faced by American businesses. Just read up on Bethlehem Steel.

But all that aside, low oversees wages and high regulatory costs are THE main factors what driving businesses out of the US and if we can institute policies that will protect us from this kind of job loss, we'd at least stop the hemmorage.

As far as exports, you're making my point for me. We're not a big exporter anyway, what have we got to loose if other people decide to boycot us? Besides, arms dealing is not exactly the most moral way to shore up your exports. That kind of makes you want there'd be more conflict in the world. I'd rather not make money off people killing each other. ....

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2006-06-29          131535


Denis
Your first paragragh is the reason for the second. As far as the third, are you going to tell Americans what they can and can not buy? are you going to limit their choice by telling them they can NOT buy foriegn. How will you shut down the Internet? People will buy where they want and you can not regulate them to kind of be channeled into buying your product. The World has opened up and to think for a minute you can tariff the American Public into only buying American is crazy. You can not stop them, it is far too late for that and actually I don't think you could have stopped the progress that has open the Global Doors. The days of buying American through Default or lack of options, are OVER. We need to regroup and put the Pride back in the Product and not just in Mottos. We need to change our attitudes and our way of producing. Mass production was great for creating large Profits but not quality. Now we need to slow down the production rate, for the profit isn't there if no one is buying and we need to start making less but adding qulaity and then selling at a competive rate. It will come back. Look at the Chrysler cars of the 80s and 90s and now look at the 300C and the NEW Imperial or the Charger or even the Challenger. We have quality and we have junk for the person that doesn't want to spend the dollars. It si the Quality that is keeping Chrysler in the Black as GM and Ford go into the RED. It is very simple economics, you need to make a product people want and sell it for a price they will pay.
Unions have stayed well beyond their welcome, now it is time for us to think as Individuals and perform as TEAMs.
The French came out of no where and produced the Concord and the plane was expensive and yet sold and peope wanted to fly on it, why? quality.
I just rode ten hours on a Bus made in Germany and it had alot of technology on it, i mean the door was electric, the shades were electric, there was an electric DVD screen that unfolded from the ceiling, awesome sound, large front windows, and stupid looking morrors, but... the ten hour ride down and the ten hour ride back was very uncomfortable. So if we made a Bus that had comfortable seats and less of the Electric crap, we could have gotten those sales instead of some German Company. We don't and we didn't, Americans just need to look close at their competition and do better. That is really the end of the story. No Magic, No Tariffs just the desire to make a better product and then sell it on the Global Market.
You will also see the price of all unregulated products go down in price and the only competitve edge left will be the quality. QUALITY is the key word. ....

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2006-06-29          131537


ww,

how is poor quality the reason for low oversees wages?

You make excellent points on the need make a quality product, but you do not adress at all the issue of wage disparity.

like I said, low oversees wages and high regulatory costs are THE main factors that are driving businesses out of the US ....

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2006-06-29          131538


denis

Overseas has low wages, for the time being. Many countries that were undevelope countries are no longer within that status and many more countries where $1000 was a decent annual wage is starting to become more aware and more apart of the World Curlture Revolution.
Unions drove Wages higher here in the states and Min. Wage LAWs drove up the base levels as well. We have chased Interest rates and created Inflations and spurred deflations. We have been playing with our economy like a Monopoly Game when in reality there is more to the picture and that is the Overseas and over the border competition. Through the Union Greed etc here in the states, Americans have driven their wages skyward. Look at the stability from the 40s to the 60s and then look at the 70s to now. Unions became BOLDER and more demanding, wanted more of the profits, Wages became too much here for companies to continue to meet and they started looking elsewhere. Why not? a Human is a Human and if the Human in the states wnats $50 per hour to program a computer and there is one in India willing and able to do it for 1/4 the wage, why not? who in their right mind would NOT relocate their business? Companies do not give a Rat's Ass about the Economy. Zero Percent Interest on American Cars isn't about helping you or trying to help the Economy, it is about movig metal. Foriegn dealers have less comptetion here in the states and you pay what they sell it for. There is a Ford Dealership every 20 miles and an Toyota Dealership every 300. So american dealers lower their prices to attract customers from their America counterparts, meanwhile by offering Big Incentives to buy we destroy the Use market and we are still more than the foriegn imports. Many people buy Toyota Trucks because of the Resale value for it isn't destroyed byy Incentives. American Automakers can not produce for the price the public wants to pay, why? because of the greedy Union Labor Force, so they relocate. Now for the time being, they can produce and sell for less and be competitive against foriegn manufacturers, that is until Mexico decides to form Unions and ge tthe pay the Americans were getting and then what? close the Domestic Shops? How long do we wait before we smarten up? It is about Quality and doing it for less pay or get in the Unemployment lines.
Africa was an example, the White Farmer flashed his Superior status to the point that the Africans grew tired and create laws to abolish the very Farmer who had kept them employed and alive. They will go through many years of self destruction and then they will adapt and come back around and it will be African controling Africans not the WHites in the leadership positions. The Middle East is no longer just Camel Jocks and Nomands but people who want to buy and spend their Oil Money and on what? mostly Mercedes and why? it is known for Quality. McDonalds hasn't done too well in China, it dod at first and then when the fad was over the people realized the food sucked.
As Europe and the rest of the world advances on the economic scale wgaes will as well and if we want to get back in the game we need to make some BIG changes here. That is what I am writing. We can not allow Union Greed to chase more comanies away and Most larger companies are Union. I will gladly work for less in many of the Union Jobs but the Companies can NOT hire me. So Denis the lower wages in the rest of the world are mostly with lower skilled people and the quality even with those people is equal to or better than from our Over Paid Union Factories. If we can eliminate Unions and make a decent product, we will automatically fall back in the Highly requested Product line again.
I defy you to go on a BIG Game Hunt in Africa and see if you can get a bunch of Natives to lug your shit around for pennies. Your Trip, your permits and so forth will set you back a real decent penny and they aren't as stupid as they once were, they have grown smarter and we still expect them to just obey and do, as we enjoy life.. Sorry dream is over.
I am sure we can go in circles here for days, but I see ourselves as our own worst enemies and our Greed is catching up to us ad becoming our punisher. ....

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kthompson
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2006-07-05          131726


On the news this weekend was I think the state of Iowa on this issue. Seems the Democrat reps and senators passed a bill limiting the ability to take land to which the Democrat Gov. vetoed. The news interviewed I beleive a Rep Mayor telling how they really needed it to take two acres of land that belonged to a lady in her 90's that did not want to see the farm land used for a railroad spur. They want the spur for a private company to build an ethanol plant that would employ 90 or so people.

Don't remember the Govneror's name but said he is a possible Democrat Presidential hopeful. ....

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wingwiper
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2006-07-05          131729


Typical Democrat
They really beleive that the people are not informed, are clueless and have a 90 second attention span. That all may have been true just a few years ago, the internet has changed that and issues and how they handle issues that are important to the people are very much a concern of the Voters now.
When the Leading Democrat came out with a comment that was "they owe it to the country that has offered them the oppurtunity" right after the defeat if the Estate Tax Bill, I learn what I had always believed about the Democrats, they believe we the people are here to serve THEM and that they are ABOVE us, in Law and and in ALL aspects, we are their SERVANTS. Guess the GOP will gain more this year. The Democrats are their OWN worst enemy. Instead of cleaning up their Rank & File they allow the likes of Dean, Kennedy, Byrd, Boxer to Represent them. ....

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kthompson
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2006-07-06          131761


WW,

I sure don't give the GOP all high marks but it sure is a shame what is going on with the Democrat party as a whole.

....

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wingwiper
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2006-07-06          131768


KT

That may be true, but
Today I heard the Democrats attack the Republicans for not doing anything about the Border Issue for the last 6 years. They make it sound we have only had borders for 6 years, we have only had the Threat from overseas for 6 years.
Christ, the GOP has handled Osama, Saddam. Kim Jong, Fox, Chavez, Iran, Katrina, and has brought up issues to have the Dems defeat them like the Estate Tax Bill, Same Sex Marriage Ban, Illegal Immigration Control, Permanent Tax Cuts and have still found the time to create over 2.5 million NEW jobs and not re hires and be slammed for that.
I just have to wonder what the Hell went on for the 46 years the Democrats had control, well for starters we had the 93 WTC attacks, Ruby Ridge, Waco, USS COLE, SUDAN, Archilles, Libya, Lockerbee, Nirobi, Beirut, Mogadishu, Kosovo, Bosnia, Serveajo, Marine Barracks, the Navy Sailor being shot on a Commercial flight because he had a Military ID, we had Tehran,Iran, Phillipines, Panama, years and years of Russia, Vietnam, Laos, Cambodia, Boliva, Columbia, and the illegals were pouring over our borders and entered during Clinton for the 9-11 attack.
I mean if we need to talk about issues where the Democrats turned their cheek, there have been many. We can look at all of the costs of the hiring of 20,000 Union Cops, why were they needed? to fight off the illegal drug trade brought on by Illegal aliens. Yet the problems continued, election after election and yet Bush has attacked the issues with FULL knowledge it was a unpopular but needed task and look at the bashing. We are to just sit and let it continue, that is what makes the dems happy, they need problems to make promises about and then DO NOTHING.
What did Clinton have to show for his 8 years? what did he accomplish? Not what the Republican led Senate or Congress accomplished, but what did Clinton Accomplish? don't forget Pardons and the sell out to China.
KT maybe the GOP doesn't have the cleanest clothes but I rather stand with them any day of the week. They seem to attack the problems and try and get things done, the Dems block the efforts and then blame the GOP for failure. Yeah right!
Hilary was going to give us better Health Care? well?..... Howard Dean for years when he sought re-election kept promising better Health care and we got HMOs and all of the Insurance Carriers cleared the state. He chased out business because he demanded that Vermont was a service state and now that the Gas prices are high and no tourists are coming, we are dying. We wanted Manufacturing jobs and he regulated businesses right out of our state. We wanted better education and we have the 2nd most costly school system in the country and our students rank 44th in itelligence. We demanded better roads and he raised the taxes and spent the surplus on pet peeves and not the roads or infrastructure.
I am sorry there are very few Democrats I have any respect for, very few.
Kennedy committed MURDER and yet he sits and judges Supreme Court Nominees as if he is Pure and clean. Why is he even allowed to judge others?
The Dems slam the Conservative Talk Shows as if the GOP is snapping their fingers and making them appear..LOL, why don't the Dems get their own talk shows and gives us balance? they can't... they have the likes of Michael Moore, Dan Rather John Kerry, Boxer, Feinstein, Bryd, McCain, Jeffords and so forth. They have NO ONE who is good and they no credibility to be able to have a decent talk show about. Hell Clinton was IMPEACHED and they still admire the puke.
I was always taught to surround yourself with people you want to be like. I guess I know who the Democrats want to be like.......
GOP -- DEMS
Rice -- Albright
Powell -- Reno
Bush -- Clinton and Company
Reagan -- Kennedy
Newt -- Dean
O'Reilly -- James Carvelle.
Limbaugh, -- Moore
North -- Rather
Hannity -- Colmes
Dole -- Gore, Kerry
Coulture -- ?
Liddy -- ?
Show me where a Democrat has done a better job than the Republican he bashes. ....

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DenisS
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2006-07-06          131770


WW,

Is that the same O'Reiley that paid a 6-figure settlement to make a sex harrassment lawsuit go away? c'mon, you want to be surrounded by the likes on him?

How about Limaugh, otherwise known as Oxicontin Rush, I don't think HE wants to be in your company, unless you can get him some pills w/o a prescription.

I think we take our talking heads too seriously in this country. Most of them are fast talkers with only average intelligence and an attitude that translates into good ratings. ....

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wingwiper
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2006-07-06          131772


Denis

I don't care if Bill O'Reilly smoked Pot for ten years, Bill Clinton claimed he did and did NOT inhale...LOL, that is totally irrevalant to what the man says and totally irrevelant when it comes to the sources of his stories or the content etc Same goes with Rush Limbaugh.
So Rush had a Prescription Drug problem, do you remember how Elvis Presley died? Marilyn Monroe? JFK was even known to do drugs in the WHite House, we all have skeletons. The drugs rush was on was for a reason and not for recreation. Bill O'Reilly and his moeny deal, I do not know the details, I have never heard the details other than Press Assumptions and it was never brought to any trial so what was the Real evidence that it even exsisted? Some people will pay to shut someone up because of the bad PR and it has nothing to do with guilt or innocence. People in high psotitions can lose millions fighting a case, even if they are 100% innocent of the accusations, so payoffs are far cheaper and done by very intelligent people/companies. Jesse Jackson and his son and Budweiser is a good example. hmmm $150,000 to shut her up or a loss in millions while I fight it. I understand that if the other party agrees to the settlement, that is all a part of the legal process. So is there a crime that has been comitted? I think not.
Rush was at Watergate and knows a lot fo the inside poop from the early 1970s right up to now, same with Gordon Liddy and Gordon did time. Ollie North was accused of the Iran/Contra and yet no one here will ever know what really happened, it is all on a NEED TO KNOW BASIS and if someone has a Kryptonite Security Clearance and is sworn to the utmost secrecy due to National Security, I assure you what you think you know about what happened and what actually did happen are probably as similiar as Apples are to Bananas. ....

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DenisS
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2006-07-07          131820


WW,

In the public eye, if you pay, that means you're guilty. O'Reiley can say all he wants that he just wanted the case to go away, but he has a responsibility to defend his good name and didn't defend it, he paid off the accuser.

My point was, a lot of the talking heads have questionable characters and to me that disqualifies them from the public spot-light that they enjoy. I just think public figures should be held to a higher standard than regular folks, we want the best to be our leaders, not the average. ....

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wingwiper
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2006-07-07          131832


Deni

I don't look at Rush or Bill as MY Leader, nor do I look at Senators as MY leaders. Bill and Rush are people who relay information down the Commo Channels for people to pick up and do as they wish. The Senators work for me and they are NOT leaders but subjects of the people.
I look at Rush and Bill in this way. Let's say Denis has a friend who was busted for child molesting, there has never been a trial, the friend was never in court and because the friend has a Large Business he chooses to pay a SETTLEMENT instead of a trial. three years later the Child admits they made the whole story up. Now you can look at Duke and the Stripper and her wild B.S. as another example or I knew a teacher who was accused, lost his job, lost his family, lost his home, lost his reputation and then it was about two years later the girl admitted she made it all up. So until there is a Trial and until he is found guilty by his peers, he is NOT guilty and if he paid money, that is considered a SETTLEMENT and not a BRIBE, for BRIBES are ILLEGAL and SETTLEMENTS are done all of the time. To punish a person on here say and assumptions, well we might just as well throw out the courts. Regardless, your friend who has been accused of child molesting comes to you and tells you he knows who it was that robbed the local bank. Do you ignore what he says because he has been ACCUSED or do you act on the info? Rush and Bill pass info on to us and you can challenge the info at anytime, research it yourself to be certain it is true and after you have done it enough where you know that SLANDER SUITs and DEFLAMATION SUITS keep them on the factual side and not the B.S. you Listen to what is being said. Facts will always be facts regardless of the reputation of the person telling them.
It isn't like they are Ted Kennedy who has committed Murder and sits on the Judgement Panel for Sumpreme Court Justice Nominees. People can quickly be destroyed by Trials and slenzy press medias, so a quick settlement is sometimes a smarter way to go. I have never had the luxury to have to make such a decision, I have nothing to lose. ....

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DenisS
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2006-07-07          131835


WW,

you listed the republican establishment figures next to those of the dems I simply said that I resent the republican counterparts only slightly less than I resent the dems. The whole system is a sharade designed to impersonate representative government. It has been perfected to maintain a small clique of families in power, while the vast majority of the american populace is totally convinced that they (common americans) have something to do with who runs the country. The beast of government is wiley and wickedly strong. It holds ALL reigns of power, including ALL media outlets. Independent voices are more often corrupted than silenced by force. You need to dig deep to see the sinister nature of the present power structure. Pay attention to who associates with whom, especially away from the cameras: the level of duplicity will never cease to amaze you. I'm not sure you'll take to what I'm saying. The bottom line is there are no good governments. They are parasitic entities designed by the wealth holders for the SOLE purpose of maintaining the stability of wealth generating institutions such as manufacture and trade. The weaker the government, the better the common man in an educated, religious society. Our government has grown beyond the point where we can reduce its strength by democratic means. We are not too far removed from a tyranical unified world government. At this point a wise man can only observe the events and see for himself the fulfillment of scriptural prophecies take place in his own life time. ....

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SG8NUC
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2006-07-07          131841


So michel jackson and OJ are good to go. ....

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wingwiper
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2006-07-08          131872


Denis

Designed by WHO?
What do you mean buy watching who they hang around with? Are you saying Guilty by Association?
I believe the Govt is a Good Govt and if the PEOPLE refuse to put a thought process into their Voting, then the results is OURs and not by some Secret Design. People will Vote by reflex, by name recognition, by party affiliation and not by ISSUES. Hopefully everyone on this board will make it a point to enlighten at least Two People by Election day on how to properly Vote and then get another Two people to show up and Vote who have always felt "it ain't worth it" it is the Results of OUR voting that we get what we get Denis.

SG
You either believe in OUR Legal System or you do not. Yes! OJ is good to go. No! Michael is NOT. Why? There has already been evidence brought up about Michael having a Relation on the Jury. So there is Contamination. Is he Guilty? No one knows yet regardless of what it may appear to be. A trial needs to be re done and with no relatives on the Jury. OJ, as far as I am concerned he was found Innocent and that is the system. Got a better idea for the redesign of the system, then share it, otherwise, just because the Media made it appear he was guilty for a sake of a GOOD story and the Jury found him INNOCENT, are we to believe the Media or the Jury? How would you react if you heard they were coming to get you for Murder and you could see the repercussions that accusations create?Seriousily Innocent people have Hung themselves, so how would you react if you ahd so much to lose all over accusations? I personnally beleive OJ is Innocent and I believe Michael is insane. Yet! I can only say I Beleive for I did NOT sit and listen day after day to the evidence. I only heard the MEDIA.
....

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