tractorpoint.com - The leader in Tractors from Compacts, to Utility, to Full Size Tractors! Kubota, John Deere, New Holland, Kioti, Case/IH, and Others. Keywords=Compact Tractor, Kubota Tractors,  Kioti Tractors, JD, John Deere Tractors, New Holland, Case Boomer, Used Tractors, Classifieds, Dealer Directory, Tractor Pictures / Images
  parts   |   discussion   |   photos   |   podcast   |   reviews   |   specs   |   dealers   |   classifieds   |   contact   |   faq   |   myProfile   |   home          Login Now | Sign Up

Forums > Active Threads > Home and Garden > Home Improvement

Post Message Home Improvement

 Go Bottom
____________________________________________________________________________________
help water condensating in the wall cavity-

View my Photos
chrisscholz
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 104 iowa
TractorPoint Premium Member -- 5 Tractors = Very Frequent Poster

2006-02-22          124985


We are finishing building a 2700 sqft ranch with 2x6 walls. The entire envelope of the interior of the house was sprayed with one inch of closed-cell foam. Then the rest of the wall cavity was filled with 4.5inches of blown fiberglass. The insulation contractor did not recommend a poly vapor barrier. The drywall was mudded, and sanded and painted with 3 coats of latex paint. Then the temperature here in Iowa dropped to 10 below zero for a few days, and water started dripping out of the bottom of the wall on to the sub floor. We ripped off some of the drywall and found that there was extreme condensation on the foam. The good news is that the studs are also coated with the foam, so the water is dripping down, and now drying out. This probably occured do to all the humidity in the house during the mudding and painting, and then the cold spell set it off. What should we do now? Tear off all the drywall and install vapor barrier? Or repaint the walls with a vapor retardant paint? I am leaning towards the last option. Just want to do things the right way. Do not want mold, etc. Am frustrated since we spent extra $$$$ on the foam, and the insulation contractor recommended against the vapor barrier.

Reply to | Quote Post Reply to PostQuote Reply | Add PhotoAdd Photo


____________________________________________________________________________________
help water condensating in the wall cavity-

View my Photos
kwschumm
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 5764 NW Oregon
TractorPoint Premium Member -- 5 Tractors = Very Frequent Poster  View my Photos  Pics

2006-02-22          124987


Just some random thoughts. Was the house heated during drywall mud and paint? I'm not familiar with blown-in fiberglass in walls, is it sprayed wet like cellulose? If so, was it given time to dry? There's a lot I don't know but it seems strange to me to put closed cell foam on the cold side of the wall. Isn't closed cell foam a vapor barrier in it's own right? And, if it is, shouldn't that be on the warm side? I may well be missing something. Has your insulation contractor done this sort of insulation technique before? It might be interesting to talk to another customer who has this type of insulation and see if they've had problems. ....

Reply to | Quote Post Reply to PostQuote Reply | Add PhotoAdd Photo


____________________________________________________________________________________
help water condensating in the wall cavity-

View my Photos
chrisscholz
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 104 iowa
TractorPoint Premium Member -- 5 Tractors = Very Frequent Poster

2006-02-22          124988


One inch of closed cell foam is like gortex. It stops water, but allows water vapor to pass through. The house was heated during the mudding and paint phase. The outside temp was around 30-40 degrees F. Then a cold spell hit, with nights at 10 below. The humidity in the house from all that paint and such was very high (you could see condensation on all the windows). That is typical of building in the winter. But all that humidity in the wall cavity hit that foam (which was now cool)and now you have condensation. If a poly vapor barrier had been installed, there would probably been much less water vapor in the wall in the first place.
I believe this happens quite often, and the water soaks into the OSB sheathing, and studs. In our house, they are coated with this skim coat of closed-cell foam and the water follows gravity and settles down the wall. Fiberglass and the foam will not wick the water. I just want the house to have no issues with water or mold in the walls down the road. ....

Reply to | Quote Post Reply to PostQuote Reply | Add PhotoAdd Photo


____________________________________________________________________________________
help water condensating in the wall cavity-

View my Photos
kwschumm
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 5764 NW Oregon
TractorPoint Premium Member -- 5 Tractors = Very Frequent Poster  View my Photos  Pics

2006-02-22          124989


I thought open cell foam was the breathable type. Always get those confused. ....

Reply to | Quote Post Reply to PostQuote Reply | Add PhotoAdd Photo


____________________________________________________________________________________
help water condensating in the wall cavity-

View my Photos
grinder
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 677 central Maine
TractorPoint Premium Member -- 5 Tractors = Very Frequent Poster  View my Photos  Pics

2006-02-23          124992


The vapor barrier needs to be on the warm side of the wall,under
the sheetrock.(6 mil poly) taped the joints.)
The warm moist air is condensing when it hits the foam which
has a colder surface. You are actually insulating the foam you
sprayed in.
. I have not used the type of insulation
system your man did but it seems like trouble waiting to happen to me.(IMHO) I think you may be creating two vapor barriers one (lousy one with the painted wall) and one at the foams suface, with a sponge in between. Paint in itself
will not cure your problem, I would lose that blown in and foam it more if you need more R-value. Perhaps you thought you were saving money? not sure why he did that?
It is true you have a lot of moisture in the house, new framing, mud,paint, etc. But keep in mind you will be cooking,showering,I believe a human body gives off a quart
a day? maybe alot more I don't remember, it is a lot. So
in other words your moiture supply will always be there to some extent depending on your situation.
What kind of Venting system do you have? Attic insulation?
Did you vapor barrier your ceiling? Don't!! Ridge vents, gable vents? Sofit vents? Lots to consider. Did you have a contract? Maybe insurance will pay and go after him?
Good luck! Try to educate yourself before you fix it so you only take that sheetrock down once.
Check out building sciences.com ....

Reply to | Quote Post Reply to PostQuote Reply | Add PhotoAdd Photo


____________________________________________________________________________________
help water condensating in the wall cavity-

View my Photos
wingwiper
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 676
TractorPoint Premium Member -- 5 Tractors = Very Frequent Poster

2006-02-23          124996


Homes need to breath and I think it is too airtight and yet the heat is making it to the opposite side of the barrier that the cold is making it, giving you condensation that you can COVER UP but will never go away.
I think Grinder gave yousome good advice. ....

Reply to | Quote Post Reply to PostQuote Reply | Add PhotoAdd Photo


____________________________________________________________________________________
help water condensating in the wall cavity-

View my Photos
Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999
Posts: 7155 Toronto Area, Ontario, Canada
TractorPoint Premium Member -- 5 Tractors = Very Frequent Poster  View my Photos  Pics

2006-02-23          125001


Chris, your insulation contrator doesn't know what he's talking about.

If your house is heated, it must have a vapour barrier on the warm side of the insulation, period.

Now that's not to say it mnust be poly. If you have sprayed foam insulation it will acts as a vapour barrier. It will not do anything for the fiberglass between the heat and the foam though.

In Canada a vapour barrier is required by law. The same applies every where else I have seen.

I'm sorry to say you have few options, short of tearing out all the drywall and installing a vapour barrier.

Best of luck. ....

Reply to | Quote Post Reply to PostQuote Reply | Add PhotoAdd Photo




Tractorpoint Parts
Fast Delivery!
Low Prices
Tractor Starter Motors for sale
Starter Motors
____________________________________________________________________________________
help water condensating in the wall cavity-

View my Photos
chrisscholz
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 104 iowa
TractorPoint Premium Member -- 5 Tractors = Very Frequent Poster

2006-02-23          125032


The closed cell foam at one inch thick can breathe slowly. The question is: will the fiberglass dry out at a quick enough rate? I have 2 options: Leave it be, and make sure the paint has a good perm rating. Or tear out the drywall on exterior walls, tear out the fiberglass, and finish the wall cavity with closed cell foam. (3 to 3.5 total thickness) and no vapor barrier is need with that thickness of closed cell foam.
What a mess. I spent the extra money on the foam envelope and this would have worked fine if the head insulation manager would have done the same thing as the other 50 houses-install the vapor barrier before drywalling. ....

Reply to | Quote Post Reply to PostQuote Reply | Add PhotoAdd Photo


____________________________________________________________________________________
help water condensating in the wall cavity-

View my Photos
kwschumm
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 5764 NW Oregon
TractorPoint Premium Member -- 5 Tractors = Very Frequent Poster  View my Photos  Pics

2006-02-23          125035


I'd make the insulation guy pick up the tab for the work to replace the fiberglass. He should have known better, and if worse comes to worse your contractors board will probably back you. You might speak with your building inspector too. I don't think you want insulation in the walls that has been wet. Maybe it will be OK, but you may not KNOW until it is too late. It also might settle in the wall cavities and leave an uninsulated space at the top. ....

Reply to | Quote Post Reply to PostQuote Reply | Add PhotoAdd Photo


____________________________________________________________________________________
help water condensating in the wall cavity-

View my Photos
brokenarrow
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 1288 Wisconsin
TractorPoint Premium Member -- 5 Tractors = Very Frequent Poster

2006-02-24          125087


Chris
My heart goes out to you. Sorry to hear your misfortune, I am sitting here and have a sick stomach just reading this, I can only imagine what you are feeling.
You are doing the right thing by asking as many folks as you can, it may be hard to talk about this (the man thing ya know) but fixing it right is your main goal. My limited experiance would tell me to bite the bullet and rip out one side or the other. The drywall out and the fibeglass out and have a reputable contractor come and fix it right with a known process. Maybe (soon) get estimates on your WATER damage, not condensation and hopefully insurance will pay. Who they get their money back from is not your concern after that (thats just a guess). I would think water damage would be covered?
I feel your pain, good luck I wish the best for you! ....

Reply to | Quote Post Reply to PostQuote Reply | Add PhotoAdd Photo


____________________________________________________________________________________
help water condensating in the wall cavity-

View my Photos
grinder
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 677 central Maine
TractorPoint Premium Member -- 5 Tractors = Very Frequent Poster  View my Photos  Pics

2006-02-25          125097


Chris, don't take me wrong I have only your interest in mind.
I remodel for a living and see these problems all the time.
If you have water/moisture issues they MUST addressed asap.
Go after the guy who did this, Take lots of pictures bedore during and after. The guy screwed you up. Wheather he meant it does not matter, he is responsible, he is the pro. You
may be able to leave your ceilings depending on what was done?
If they are alright knief the wall the the top and leave the ceiling. Try one room, repair it and make sure that the
new process cures your problem.
Good luck, get some legal advice.
Don't wait the smell is hard to get rid of even after you fix it, if you wait too long. ....

Reply to | Quote Post Reply to PostQuote Reply | Add PhotoAdd Photo


____________________________________________________________________________________
help water condensating in the wall cavity-

View my Photos
grinder
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 677 central Maine
TractorPoint Premium Member -- 5 Tractors = Very Frequent Poster  View my Photos  Pics

2006-02-25          125098


Chris, don't take me wrong I have only your interest in mind.
I remodel for a living and see these problems all the time.
If you have water/moisture issues they MUST addressed asap.
Go after the guy who did this, Take lots of pictures bedore during and after. The guy screwed you up. Wheather he meant it does not matter, he is responsible, he is the pro. You
may be able to leave your ceilings depending on what was done?
If they are alright knief the wall the the top and leave the ceiling. Try one room, repair it and make sure that the
new process cures your problem.
Good luck, get some legal advice.
Don't wait the smell is hard to get rid of even after you fix it, if you wait too long. ....

Reply to | Quote Post Reply to PostQuote Reply | Add PhotoAdd Photo


____________________________________________________________________________________
help water condensating in the wall cavity-

View my Photos
Peters
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 3034 Northern AL
TractorPoint Premium Member -- 5 Tractors = Very Frequent Poster  View my Photos  Pics

2006-02-25          125107


Like everyone else I am learning about this and am not sure what the answer is, put I will try and contribute what I know.
Closed cell foam will provide a tight vapor barrier like PE film. The migration of water through the barrier will be slow at best. They recommend that you fill the cavity so inner and outer barriers prevent water penitration. See link below. This is a company I have been consulting with.
If a house is this tight you need to install an air to air exchanger to clean the air and move the moisture out of the house.
I think you problem is mostly due to the water in the house from paint, new wood, foam and dry wall and the weather. If you did not allow weeks for the drywall to dry and painted it the water in the drywall and the mud probably condensed on the foam. The Gypsum, hydrated calcium sulfate looses a lot of water once it is on the wall. Has anyone considered the weight of a new dry wall sheet and that of one removed in a remodel? I think is it about 1/2 the weight. My dry wall contractor would not paint for 3 weeks after installation.
This is a big continent and one solution does not fit all in building. As Murf states an interior and exterior vapor barriers are required in Canada, but contractors routinely slit the interior barriers in southern BC to prevent problems after inspectors have approved.
The problem is where is the dew point in the wall and which direction is it moving. If the interior is warm and moist and the outside is cold and dry. The dew point is in the center of the wall and moving from the inside to the outside. If the outside is warm and moist and the interior cooler and dryer the moisture is moving from the outside into the wall.
PVC wallcovering can create that barrier in the south and trap condensation on the back side in the wall. This is also the problem in southern BC. I worked to create wallcovering that was a semipermiable membrane like Tyvek to correct this problem.
I think the best solutions are ICF where the dew point is in the center of the concrete wall most of the time or SIPs panels with galvanized steel on both sides. I have seen problems with OSB or laminate on SIPs over time. ....


Link:   Biobased Insultation

 
Reply to | Quote Post Reply to PostQuote Reply | Add PhotoAdd Photo


____________________________________________________________________________________
help water condensating in the wall cavity-

View my Photos
WillieH
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 543 New England
TractorPoint Premium Member -- 5 Tractors = Very Frequent Poster  View my Photos  Pics

2006-03-03          125540


Chris -
Like everyone here, I too feel for your dilemma. I guess I am from the old school...that is, I feel comfortable with the old tar paper on the exterior over the sheathing, and my Owens Corning rolled R19 (or whatever rating) fiberglass insulation in the walls, covered by not one but two layers of sheetrock.
Some may be wondering why two layers. By applying the second layer practice, not only does one get a more airtight seal around the typical cold air leak points, however your wall strength increases as well. For instance, instead of using a single 1/2 inch sheet of sheetrock, use two 3/8 inch sheets, that are are fixed to the studs opposite from one another. First layer runs horizontal, second or top layer runs vertical - it really ties the wall together, and alleviates the potential for any cracks to appear later on down the road, besides keeping the house warmer in the winter, and cooler in the summer.
Anyway...that is what I do up here where it usually gets around -30 F in the winter season, and up to 100+ in the summer.

As far as the insurance and the like, DON'T wait to get legal assistance in getting action from the contractor. One doesn't need to feed him to the wolves just yet, rather flex the muscle , so to speak.
Insurance wise, -most- Homeowners insurance policies today, now have provisions standard written in, concerning mold and moisture damage. Many offer up to $10,000 - $15,000 without quibble worth of repairs. Check with your Insurance agent for your provisions - I know when my policy renewed one year a while ago, I was surprised to have read that.

- Willie H
....

Reply to | Quote Post Reply to PostQuote Reply | Add PhotoAdd Photo


____________________________________________________________________________________
help water condensating in the wall cavity-

View my Photos
k9fletch
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 52 Whittemore, MI
TractorPoint Premium Member -- 5 Tractors = Very Frequent Poster  View my Photos  Pics

2006-03-04          125556


Chris, I hope everything works out with your situation. As I read the thread, I recalled a company that I had done some research on a few years ago, they recomend the exact instalation process that you have. They even have a video where a guy sprays a inch of foam then puts unfaced batt insulation on top of it in the stud cavity. The best I can recall they had a decent Tech dept, and they responded to my questions quickly. I opted not to purchase from them and my shop is still uninsulated:(

they were operating under a different name but I think they are going by the name of Tiger Foam, if not they are using the same video. I will attempt to attach the web page, best of luck. ....


Link:   

Click Here


 
Reply to | Quote Post Reply to PostQuote Reply | Add PhotoAdd Photo




Tractorpoint Parts
Fast Delivery!
Low Prices
Tractor Driveline PTO for sale
Driveline Components
Assembly | Clutch
Half CV
____________________________________________________________________________________
help water condensating in the wall cavity-

View my Photos
chrisscholz
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 104 iowa
TractorPoint Premium Member -- 5 Tractors = Very Frequent Poster

2006-03-06          125651


I wanted everyone to know the latest on our situation with condensation in the wall cavity. As of last week, all the walls are bone dry. A company called Werner was hired to use negative air pressure and an industrial-size dehumidifier to dry out each room individually. The company specializes in drying out houses for situations like ours, or when fire sprinklers turn on and saturate the house. They shine an infrared gun at the walls which is calibrated for humidity and condensation. Therefore, they can guarantee the walls are dry. Looking under the drywall, the insulation is back to normal, dry, and unsettled. The insulation company is giving us a contract, guaranteeing that they stay dry each winter, or they will replace the insulation, and pay for any drywall or paint repair. They all stepped up to the plate after they did their research. Talking with insulation specialists and research scientists showed that the walls were victim to extreme humidity levels (which many houses face during construction with all that mud, texturing and paint, brand new drywall) and then the temp dropped to minus 10 for one week causing the condensation. All houses would get water in the walls (except ICF, or SIP panels, or solid cavity foam)with this scenario. Most would have soaked into the OSB, and dried out over 2 or 3 months. Our one inch of foam will let vapor threw, but not water in its liquid state. The research shows the walls will breath. We have an air exchanger, and this will keep the humidity correct, allowing the walls to stay dry even through a cold winter. I wish the HVAC guys would have hooked it up during the mudding and painting. Thanks for all your information, and I finally feel like things are back to normal. I feel like I have talked to every insulation specialist in the country. One thing I can take from this, is that what works in Florida, will not work in Minnesota, and southern Iowa falls somewhere in between. ....

Reply to | Quote Post Reply to PostQuote Reply | Add PhotoAdd Photo


____________________________________________________________________________________
help water condensating in the wall cavity-

View my Photos
WillieH
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 543 New England
TractorPoint Premium Member -- 5 Tractors = Very Frequent Poster  View my Photos  Pics

2006-03-06          125656


Chris -
Glad to hear that things are working out. It sounds like you have done an extreme amount of research since last posted - good for you that you were able to find such info, and, a contractor / company that knew what they were doing.

Question: You mentioned that you have an air exchanger to keep the humidity levels a constant. If you lose the exchanger for one reason or another, can you expect that the walls will "refill" so to speak?
Will this happen each and every time the conditions are to change, or was this merely a coincidental element with the moisture from the mudding process?

Sometimes with an air exchanger, it creates a negative in the house so extreme, that if you wanted to light a fire in the stove for instance, it would not stay lit. I hope in the cold where you are, this will not be a concern.

- Willie H ....

Reply to | Quote Post Reply to PostQuote Reply | Add PhotoAdd Photo


____________________________________________________________________________________
help water condensating in the wall cavity-

View my Photos
Peters
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 3034 Northern AL
TractorPoint Premium Member -- 5 Tractors = Very Frequent Poster  View my Photos  Pics

2006-03-06          125657


I am happy to here you have some resolution. I hope our input was some help. Like I said in my post I am still learning more about this. I was up at the maker of TYPAR house rap, BBA on Thursday last week. Now I am sorry I used TYVEK on my house and garage. ....

Reply to | Quote Post Reply to PostQuote Reply | Add PhotoAdd Photo


____________________________________________________________________________________
help water condensating in the wall cavity-

View my Photos
chrisscholz
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 104 iowa
TractorPoint Premium Member -- 5 Tractors = Very Frequent Poster

2006-03-08          125831


Willie, we will have a humdistat to monitor the humidity levels, so they stay correct (I have to research the recommended level, but it is somewhere between 30-40).

The house was over 60% humidity after all the mudding and texturing, etc. The air exchanger will keep the house from getting stale, keep unwanted odors and smells from building up, and keep humidity under control. The only way this would happen again, is if we installed a swimming pool or a big mamma hot-tub! Any wall that is not solid foam, ICF or a SIP panel can get a trace amount of condensation when the temp drops to minus 10 or so. (but not to the amount of what we faced, and this wall system can still breathe slowly) It would have cost another $4500 to do the house entirely in foam, (not including the $5000 that was already spent to foam the rim joist, heels of the trusses, and the one inch skim coat). And that doesn't include the price of the ceiling to r-40 and the garage.
ICF construction would have cost an additional $40000! The sky is the limit on how much you want to spend. I tried to get somewhere in the middle. We already spent an additional $9000 upgrading to 5 ton geothermal (with a 6 ton loop). Then another $1600 on the air exchanger. All in the matter of saving energy, and knowing we will be in the house for a long time. I am sure in 10 years there will be other options for efficiency, such as solar panel shingles (currently not cost effective) or wind generation. You just hope you made the right decisions. ....

Reply to | Quote Post Reply to PostQuote Reply | Add PhotoAdd Photo


____________________________________________________________________________________
help water condensating in the wall cavity-

View my Photos
WillieH
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 543 New England
TractorPoint Premium Member -- 5 Tractors = Very Frequent Poster  View my Photos  Pics

2006-03-08          125844


Chris -

I guess one could spend as much as one wanted or as little as one wanted, relative to the extreme of effiency that one wants to go - Lord knows the costs can REALLY climb.
(Quite obviously, you do too)

My Uncle moved into another house awhile back. It was outfitted from day one (maybe 15 years old) with a solar heat/water exchange unit in the basement, with copper tubing running to and fro the collector panels on the roof line. He also has an oil burner as secondary, as well as a wood burning fireplace.

More often than not, I would say about once a year, usually when it started to get cold, the exchanger control board would need replacing - about $450.00 each and every time. Then, the roof needed to be replaced (shingles that is). What a friggin nightmare to execute the removal and replacement. All the solar hardware had to come off first, then the roof work, then the solar panels and piping had to be reinstalled etc etc.

By the time all was said and done, the efficiency / cost effectiveness was costing THEM everytime they turned around.
Then one day, a guy stopped over and asked about buying the complete set up. They did sell it to the guy, but once again, another nightmare, as all the antifreeze lines had to be evacuated first, then the exchanger (big heavy mother)in the basement had to be brought out. On top of this, the solar panels had to be removed from the roof - very gingerly. Then they had to insure that the roof was not damaged from the removal, so the now purchaser had to contact the roofer again, and the story goes on and on, but you get the picture I'm sure.

Needless to say, they are tickled that they rid themselves of this system. I am sure that improvements have been made to the systems since this vintage, but it would be a cold day... before I would contemplate putting it in to my house.

As you mentioned, the costs for the insulation / process is very costly. I had no idea that it cost THAT much these days.....maybe it is time I moved to Brazil...all I would need there would be an umbrella and bug spray! lol (maybe a round or two of ammo too)

Keep it warm and dry -

- Willie H ....

Reply to | Quote Post Reply to PostQuote Reply | Add PhotoAdd Photo



Return to index    Go Top


Share This



Tractorpoint Parts
Fast Delivery!
Low Prices
Tractor Starter Motors for sale
Starter Motors