tractorpoint.com - The leader in Tractors from Compacts, to Utility, to Full Size Tractors! Kubota, John Deere, New Holland, Kioti, Case/IH, and Others. Keywords=Compact Tractor, Kubota Tractors,  Kioti Tractors, JD, John Deere Tractors, New Holland, Case Boomer, Used Tractors, Classifieds, Dealer Directory, Tractor Pictures / Images
  parts   |   discussion   |   photos   |   podcast   |   reviews   |   specs   |   dealers   |   classifieds   |   contact   |   faq   |   myProfile   |   home          Login Now | Sign Up

Forums > Active Threads > Home and Garden > Home Improvement

Post Message Home Improvement

 Go Bottom
____________________________________________________________________________________
pole barn sub panel

View my Photos
EricBX1500
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 46 mich
TractorPoint Premium Member -- 5 Tractors = Very Frequent Poster

2005-11-19          119554


Need some advise? I ran power to my pole barn and I want to know if this is correct. I ran 130’ of #8 THHN in plastic conduit from my main panel with a 30amp breaker at my main panel feeding a sub panel in my pole barn (my sub does not have a main disconnect at the barn only at the main). There is no metal of any sort connecting my house to my pole barn except a phone line. I ran two hots and a neutral but no ground wire. I installed two grounding rods at the pole barn six feet apart. I also bonded the neutral and ground at the sub panel. Does all this seem correct?

Reply to | Quote Post Reply to PostQuote Reply | Add PhotoAdd Photo


____________________________________________________________________________________
pole barn sub panel

View my Photos
Chief
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 4285 Southwest MiddleTennessee
TractorPoint Premium Member -- 5 Tractors = Very Frequent Poster  View my Photos  Pics

2005-11-19          119558


For a barn, I think I would use the cable you used or maybe one size larger to a 100 amp temporary pole/panel assy. 30 amp is not really adequate for generic us at a barn in my opinion. I purchased a 100 amp service pole to include the meter mount base, 100 amp circuit breaker box, weather proof 120 volt weather proof receptical, 16' pole with copper grounding strap, 8' grounding rod, and 80 lb. bag of concrete for $488. Keep an eye out in your local "Free Cycle" website as I just got one for free. I am a moderator on out local Free Cycle websit so let me know if I can get you pointed in the the right direction as far as web sites if you are a "thrifty" farmer like me. ;O) ....

Reply to | Quote Post Reply to PostQuote Reply | Add PhotoAdd Photo


____________________________________________________________________________________
pole barn sub panel

View my Photos
steve4300
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 71 NH
TractorPoint Premium Member -- 5 Tractors = Very Frequent Poster

2005-11-20          119613


#8 copper is fine for 30 amps,You do need to run a # 10 ground wire with the #8s making it a 4 wire. you still need the 2 ground rods and do not bond the neutral and grounds ....

Reply to | Quote Post Reply to PostQuote Reply | Add PhotoAdd Photo


____________________________________________________________________________________
pole barn sub panel

View my Photos
Deereman
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 18 Kansas
TractorPoint Premium Member -- 5 Tractors = Very Frequent Poster

2005-11-24          119778


Eric,

As a Journeman Electrician, you also need a dis-connecting means at the barn, such as a fuseable or non-fuseable safety switch or a small panel with a 30a breaker switch. You must have a means of switching the power in the barn. HTH. ....

Reply to | Quote Post Reply to PostQuote Reply | Add PhotoAdd Photo


____________________________________________________________________________________
pole barn sub panel

View my Photos
EricBX1500
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 46 mich
TractorPoint Premium Member -- 5 Tractors = Very Frequent Poster

2005-11-24          119804


Thanks for the reply deersman. I have less then 6 sweeps of the hand only 4. So under these conditions I do not need a main disconnect in the barn. NEC does state this. My 30amp breaker at the main panel qualifies for a main disconnect. ....

Reply to | Quote Post Reply to PostQuote Reply | Add PhotoAdd Photo


____________________________________________________________________________________
pole barn sub panel

View my Photos
Deereman
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 18 Kansas
TractorPoint Premium Member -- 5 Tractors = Very Frequent Poster

2005-11-25          119817


Eric,

I can't tell you what chapter this reg. is in, my nec is at the shop, but I believe if your sub feeding a panel, you need a dis-connecting means, "unless" your running it less than 50ft. or "within sight" of the panel being fed from. Or, whatever you feel comfortable with. :)
I bought some rual property a while back and built a 30x50 barn, I had the local co-op run some primary(800ft. buried) up to a pad mounted xformer(they also set a pedastal meter) which was about 50ft. from the barn. I asked the electrician what the local code was(was'nt sure for that county), for me to bury it into the barn. His response was, "I don't care if you run an extension cord....it's yours now" LOL. Take care and be safe. ....

Reply to | Quote Post Reply to PostQuote Reply | Add PhotoAdd Photo


____________________________________________________________________________________
pole barn sub panel

View my Photos
EricBX1500
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 46 mich
TractorPoint Premium Member -- 5 Tractors = Very Frequent Poster

2005-11-25          119822


deersman check out section 225.33 which specifically permits this.

thanks ....

Reply to | Quote Post Reply to PostQuote Reply | Add PhotoAdd Photo




Tractorpoint Parts
Fast Delivery!
Low Prices
Tractor Alternator for sale
Alternators
____________________________________________________________________________________
pole barn sub panel

View my Photos
kthompson
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 5223 South Carolina
TractorPoint Premium Member -- 5 Tractors = Very Frequent Poster  View my Photos  Pics

2005-11-25          119829


With code varying for area to area you both could be correct on what is allowed or required. As to the fourth wire for 220 it was not long ago that no circuit 110 or 220 had a fourth wire for single phase except in a mobile home in my world. If you will look in many breaker boxes you will find grounds and neutrals on same buss. As least in my part of the world. If the buss is mounted directly on the metal box as or has a jumper screw as some area's codes require you are in effect joining them still. The meter box I install two years ago only had three wires from the power company (220) so neutral and ground were joined by them. THeir neutral mounted to the meter box, with ground wire also mounted to the meter box. To me they are in same circuit. ....

Reply to | Quote Post Reply to PostQuote Reply | Add PhotoAdd Photo


____________________________________________________________________________________
pole barn sub panel

View my Photos
steve4300
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 71 NH
TractorPoint Premium Member -- 5 Tractors = Very Frequent Poster

2005-11-29          120086


correct ,but you are talking about the main service panel, as far as a sub panel you have always been required to have a 4 wire at least back 1985 before that I don't know thats when I got into the trade. In the 2002 code they required you to add the ground rods for buildings supplied by anouther building.Article 250.32 . As far as having a disconnect at the barn yes in acordance with art.225.32 ....

Reply to | Quote Post Reply to PostQuote Reply | Add PhotoAdd Photo


____________________________________________________________________________________
pole barn sub panel

View my Photos
kthompson
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 5223 South Carolina
TractorPoint Premium Member -- 5 Tractors = Very Frequent Poster  View my Photos  Pics

2005-11-29          120089


I left the electric business before 1985 for other than my own barn and my brother's. The biggest thing I was trying to say is the way I think he wired it was standard for many years and it will work. I still find it hard to believe if it is safe to wire it that way from the meter base to the main breaker box and it is not safe to a sub panel. At same time it is only three wires run by the power company from transformer to meter base, two powers and a single ground/neutral. So why is there no need for a seperate 4th wire when it comes to the power in or out of meter base?

It used to be unless you had either more than 6 or 8 breakers (not sure now which number is was) you were not required to have a main disconnect either, again, per code here. That was even on a main breaker box. Is the extra ground wire safer, probably. So are ground fault outlets and I do recommend them anywhere near where water may be. Now would that not be for any outlet he may use an extension code to run something outside with?
Before someone comes along and say you sure had lax code there let me say 14 guage wire and 15 amp circuits have not been legal here since at least 1970 and all services had to be in conduit, not as they were with expoused (do not remember the type of wire they used as we did not use it here) in some large cities in other states.

Now if he wants to talk with his local code people and ask them if what he did is per code that is his call. I would not suggest he bring them out to his building as they may have all kind of issues.

A point that concerns me more that the 4th wire would be the depth he buried his conduit. ....

Reply to | Quote Post Reply to PostQuote Reply | Add PhotoAdd Photo


____________________________________________________________________________________
pole barn sub panel

View my Photos
kthompson
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 5223 South Carolina
TractorPoint Premium Member -- 5 Tractors = Very Frequent Poster  View my Photos  Pics

2005-12-01          120167


Eric,
I thought I sent this from dial up connection but it did not make it.

In going over what you first asked, I have a question. Your two hot wires are 220 voltage across them, correct? If you used a side by side double breaker they should be 220. If you used a piggy back or two single breakers that are not side by side you may have both hot wires on the same leg of your main breaker box. If you do you only have 110 voltage and you are placing a double load on your single neutral. THAT WOULD BE DANGEROUS AND ONE DAY WILL FAIL. ....

Reply to | Quote Post Reply to PostQuote Reply | Add PhotoAdd Photo


____________________________________________________________________________________
pole barn sub panel

View my Photos
EricBX1500
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 46 mich
TractorPoint Premium Member -- 5 Tractors = Very Frequent Poster

2005-12-01          120229


Kthompson, my sub is fed by a 30amp double pole breaker. ....

Reply to | Quote Post Reply to PostQuote Reply | Add PhotoAdd Photo


____________________________________________________________________________________
pole barn sub panel

View my Photos
steve4300
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 71 NH
TractorPoint Premium Member -- 5 Tractors = Very Frequent Poster

2005-12-01          120239


My best suggestion would to contact a good local electrician , the reason they make code rules is because someone before you has found out the hard way the wrong way to wire something. ....

Reply to | Quote Post Reply to PostQuote Reply | Add PhotoAdd Photo


____________________________________________________________________________________
pole barn sub panel

View my Photos
kthompson
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 5223 South Carolina
TractorPoint Premium Member -- 5 Tractors = Very Frequent Poster  View my Photos  Pics

2005-12-02          120257


Eric,
I thought you probably had but I have seen the other done.

I hope you enjoy your barn.


As to codes there is reasons for them. Some even make a lot of sense which I fully agree. Now why was the code for years on a 110 circuit a power and a neutral or the black and white wire only? Then there came the smaller guage ground and then it was decided the ground must be as large as the power.

At the same time there was code requirement for the 110 circuit to have the third wire the ground as the same guage as the power and neutral the code also said if you were to replace the outlet itself in an old 2 wire circuit you were to use or at least allowed to use the 3 prong outlet giving the impression to someone using it to be a grounded outlet. Now if that makes sense I forgive those who make codes and think they are perfect. Some of the electric codes (last I studied them) were a lot like some of the IRS code, law but huh?

As to a good local electrician, please if you do, do ask more at least two and let us know if both gave the exact same answer. Now, let one be about 30 and one about 60. Don't forget to ask how many barns, houses or what ever each has wired and then how many have burnt due to wiring.

....

Reply to | Quote Post Reply to PostQuote Reply | Add PhotoAdd Photo


____________________________________________________________________________________
pole barn sub panel

View my Photos
kully560
Join Date:
Posts: 1
TractorPoint Premium Member -- 5 Tractors = Very Frequent Poster

2005-12-07          120638


there is specific chapters in the nec on multi.outbuildings for farm use. local codes will superseed nec. for nec specs you do not need the ground wire for each building they will be treated as own sep. service and 2 grounds 6 feet apart. 6 throws of the hand still applies for any service. ....

Reply to | Quote Post Reply to PostQuote Reply | Add PhotoAdd Photo




Tractorpoint Parts
Fast Delivery!
Low Prices
Tractor Driveline PTO for sale
Driveline Components
Assembly | Clutch
Half CV
____________________________________________________________________________________
pole barn sub panel

View my Photos
Wen
Join Date: Jun 1999
Posts: 10 Texas
TractorPoint Premium Member -- 5 Tractors = Very Frequent Poster

2005-12-15          121135


You should run a fourth wire (also #8) for the ground wire. Since the 30 amp circuit normally will be used to power other 15 or 20 amp circuits, a small 4 - 8 circuit breaker panel (without a main breaker is about $15 (plus $3/breaker) is required at the barn. It is also necessary to have a separate ground buss (normally purchased separately from the panel) for all ground returns. It is never permitted to use the neutral and ground busses tied together in a sub panel such as you are installing. Barn circuits should be protected by 15A or 20A GFCI circuits ($10) unless they are for (and ONLY for) dedicated fixed equipment. It is not expensive to conform to the NEC and much safer for everyone. The breakers allow you to turn off each circuit and the 30A breaker in the main panel allows you to disable the entire sub-panel in the barn. The correct wiring of ground and neutral wires allows the GFCI protectors to prevent shocks with nearby water and wet soil or concrete and are required. ....

Reply to | Quote Post Reply to PostQuote Reply | Add PhotoAdd Photo


____________________________________________________________________________________
pole barn sub panel

View my Photos
EricBX1500
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 46 mich
TractorPoint Premium Member -- 5 Tractors = Very Frequent Poster

2005-12-15          121137


It is never permitted to use the neutral and ground busses tied together in a sub panel such as you are installing.




Actually it is permitted. Nec does state this, and was also confirmed by an electrician.
....

Reply to | Quote Post Reply to PostQuote Reply | Add PhotoAdd Photo


____________________________________________________________________________________
pole barn sub panel

View my Photos
Wen
Join Date: Jun 1999
Posts: 10 Texas
TractorPoint Premium Member -- 5 Tractors = Very Frequent Poster

2005-12-15          121144


The reason the NEC was changed was to be certain that ground fault interrupt devices would operate properly from sub-panel circuits and to prevent poor bonding to the neutral wire which can easily create a shock hazzard in damp locations. This separates the requirements for grounding and bonding at sub-panels. Metal pipes or ground rods are bonding to the ground (not the neutral) buss in the sub-panels.

A good internet reference on NEC Article 250.4 is located at "http://www.iaei.org/magazine/03_f/03_f_threechiefs.htm". It describes the installation detailed in the first post and provides step by step details on adding the fourth (ground wire) and why the isolation must be done in existing installations. ....


Link:   

Click Here


 
Reply to | Quote Post Reply to PostQuote Reply | Add PhotoAdd Photo


____________________________________________________________________________________
pole barn sub panel

View my Photos
EricBX1500
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 46 mich
TractorPoint Premium Member -- 5 Tractors = Very Frequent Poster

2005-12-16          121200


That is true. Since I have only three feeds two hots and a neutral to the detached structure this is why I must bond the panel. If I don’t bond it and I have a ground fault more then likely this would not trip the breaker in the barn since earth is a terrible conductor of electricity. Now with me bonding the neutral and ground the ground fault will travel back to my main panel via the neutral which will give it enough resistance to trip the breaker. This is why I must bond the panel in the pole barn. ....

Reply to | Quote Post Reply to PostQuote Reply | Add PhotoAdd Photo


____________________________________________________________________________________
pole barn sub panel

View my Photos
Carldarnell
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 91 Taylorsville Ky
TractorPoint Premium Member -- 5 Tractors = Very Frequent Poster

2005-12-23          121611


I am in Ky and wired my pole barn in 2004. The inspector told me to run two hot and one neutral to the barn to a panel with a 100amp breaker that feeds a box for 8 breakers. He said I do not need a bare ground wire with the service line to the barn nor a grnd rod to ground the service at the barn. The service is set up with an isolated neutral and the bare wires grounded to the breaker boxes. The two breaker boxes are bolted and grounded to each other. Ky addopted the 2005 NEC code in 2005 so it may be different now. I am going to ask around and see if I need a ground rod and any changes to the way it is hooked up. I am very currious and interested about this now. ....

Reply to | Quote Post Reply to PostQuote Reply | Add PhotoAdd Photo


____________________________________________________________________________________
pole barn sub panel

View my Photos
EricBX1500
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 46 mich
TractorPoint Premium Member -- 5 Tractors = Very Frequent Poster

2005-12-24          121647


Carldnell, first thing did you run your feeders in metal conduit from your main panel to your sub panel? If so, some may (inspectors) consider this a ground, but you also have a metallic path between your detached structures and must run a fourth wire (ground) from your main to sub. Now if you used PVC then I would put a ground rod or two out at your pole barn. The problem you have is your system is not grounded out at the pole barn. If your sub panel or receptacles ever become energized you would have a major shock problem. Once you put your ground rods out there then you must bond your panel since you did not run a fourth wire aka ground. The reason for this is if you ever have a ground fault you may not have enough resistance for the breaker to trip since the ground is a terrible conductor of electricity. With your panel bonded and you have a ground fault it can now travel back via the neutral, which will create enough resistance to trip the breaker. ....

Reply to | Quote Post Reply to PostQuote Reply | Add PhotoAdd Photo


____________________________________________________________________________________
pole barn sub panel

View my Photos
Carldarnell
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 91 Taylorsville Ky
TractorPoint Premium Member -- 5 Tractors = Very Frequent Poster

2005-12-24          121652


Eric, today I revisited the NEC article and found how to see the figures/diagrams 1,2,and 3. I printed out 2 and 3 and found that my installation is figure 3. However, I have two ground fault circuits for elec. outlets and the text said without ground fault circuits. What I have is a 400Amp service split to 200Amp each to home and shop. I was required to use a 400A meter base with two trailer disconnects of 200A each. One for the house and one for the shop/garage. The ground buss and neutral buss are bonded and grounded to the meter base. The #4 bare runs into the house and shop service panels unbroken from ground rod to meter base, to trailer disconnects,to each service panel. The neutral buss in the house and shop is isolated from the ground as required locally. At the trailer disconnect that supplies the pole barn I have a 100A breaker and three wires(two hot, one neutral)to supply the pole barn in PVC undrground. At the pole barn I have two breaker boxes bolted and bonded together. One has a 100A breaker as a main disconnect, the other has places for 8 breakers. The neutral is isolated and the ground is bonded to the panel boxes with no ground rod. Now, if I install a ground rod and wire it to the ground buss do I also need to bond the neutral? Or, since I have ground fault circuits need to keep the neutral isolated? ....

Reply to | Quote Post Reply to PostQuote Reply | Add PhotoAdd Photo


____________________________________________________________________________________
pole barn sub panel

View my Photos
EricBX1500
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 46 mich
TractorPoint Premium Member -- 5 Tractors = Very Frequent Poster

2005-12-24          121655


Carldnell post your question on this web site. This site is very helpfull and there are plenty of electricians and inspectors on this site. ....


Link:   

Click Here


 
Reply to | Quote Post Reply to PostQuote Reply | Add PhotoAdd Photo




Tractorpoint Parts
Fast Delivery!
Low Prices
Tractor Radiator for sale
Radiators
____________________________________________________________________________________
pole barn sub panel

View my Photos
Carldarnell
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 91 Taylorsville Ky
TractorPoint Premium Member -- 5 Tractors = Very Frequent Poster

2005-12-24          121667


Thanks for that site Eric. It is a GOLD MINE of info. I joined and put a thread on the question I asked of you. I am just making sure the inspector told me right. I do want to be protected. ....

Reply to | Quote Post Reply to PostQuote Reply | Add PhotoAdd Photo


____________________________________________________________________________________
pole barn sub panel

View my Photos
Deereman
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 18 Kansas
TractorPoint Premium Member -- 5 Tractors = Very Frequent Poster

2005-12-24          121669


Cardarnell, I have about the exact same setup. Pad mounted xformer, 400A. pedastall meter next to it. Seperate Feeds going to the house and barn. Both are 3 wire feeds, 2 conductors and a neutral. It does not matter whether it's run in pvc or metel conduit. What does matter is that your service panels are grounded(with ground rod)and the panels must be bonded to this ground. If not, your panel could be energized and not trip the breaker, since your neutral is isolated. The two boxes being bonded together gets you "nothing" at this point, since they are not grounded. Ground those boxes, or you risk the chance of being electrocuted! HTH.

Merry Christmas all! ....

Reply to | Quote Post Reply to PostQuote Reply | Add PhotoAdd Photo


____________________________________________________________________________________
pole barn sub panel

View my Photos
kwschumm
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 5764 NW Oregon
TractorPoint Premium Member -- 5 Tractors = Very Frequent Poster  View my Photos  Pics

2005-12-24          121677


You could get 100% correct advice from an expert electrician on the internet and it really wouldn't matter if your local inspector disagreed. You need to satisfy the local inspector, so you might as well ask them up front. ....

Reply to | Quote Post Reply to PostQuote Reply | Add PhotoAdd Photo


____________________________________________________________________________________
pole barn sub panel

View my Photos
Carldarnell
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 91 Taylorsville Ky
TractorPoint Premium Member -- 5 Tractors = Very Frequent Poster

2005-12-24          121682


My service panels ARE grounded to the ground rod. The inspector wanted me to put one ground rod in at the meter base. Then run one continious #4 bare copper wire folded in half from the ground rod to the meter base ground lug. Then one of the wires went to the left side house trailer disconnect ground lug and through the conduit into the house service panel ground lug. The other wire went to the right side shop/garage trailer disconnect ground lug and then to the shop/garage service panel ground lug. He did not want the neutral bonded to ground. That is how the inspector wanted it. That was using 2002 Ky elec. code. What I am trying to find out now is do I need a ground rod at the pole barn and how to hook it up. The inspector told me no when I was putting it in. The electrician I work for said it needs a ground rod. I am searching for the current code as to how it should be hooked up. But, I have been told several ways to do it. Now, which one is right, that is the question. What I need to do is find a code book and read it and ask the power co. field man here about it. ....

Reply to | Quote Post Reply to PostQuote Reply | Add PhotoAdd Photo


____________________________________________________________________________________
pole barn sub panel

View my Photos
Carldarnell
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 91 Taylorsville Ky
TractorPoint Premium Member -- 5 Tractors = Very Frequent Poster

2005-12-24          121683


kw, that is part of the problem. It's all in and inspected so I don't have to go through him again. Just reading the posts here got me to thinking, maybe mine needs a ground rod at the barn to be safe and how to connect it. I guess I am going to have to find a copy of the 2005 NEC and read it for myself. According to the NEC article on sub panels in outbuildings that is in a post in this thread If you run a 4 wire system, 2 hot, 1 neutral, one ground, then you need a ground rod at the barn wired to the ground buss and the neutral is not bonded to the panel. If you run a three wire system, 2 hot, 1 neutral, then you need a ground rod wired to the ground buss and the neutral is bonded to the panel. I guess I am just trying to confirm this info before I make the changes. Maybe I am just beating a dead horse but I want to be sure it's correct.

edit: at $50 a copy from Amazon I don't think I'll buy a copy of the 2005 NEC. ....

Reply to | Quote Post Reply to PostQuote Reply | Add PhotoAdd Photo


____________________________________________________________________________________
pole barn sub panel

View my Photos
Deereman
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 18 Kansas
TractorPoint Premium Member -- 5 Tractors = Very Frequent Poster

2005-12-25          121700


KW is right, you must satisfy your local inspector. Just a few years ago my county was using the "CABO ONE and TWO FAMILY DWELLING CODE" for compliance, but just last year they have adopded a new one, "INTERNATIONAL RESIDENTIAL CODE". Both of these publications super-cede the national code books. I will be recieving my 2005 NEC in a few days, email me if intrested and I'll scan and send you what your looking for. ....

Reply to | Quote Post Reply to PostQuote Reply | Add PhotoAdd Photo


____________________________________________________________________________________
pole barn sub panel

View my Photos
Carldarnell
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 91 Taylorsville Ky
TractorPoint Premium Member -- 5 Tractors = Very Frequent Poster

2005-12-25          121712


Well, I will take you up on that offer. I think my email it accesable in my profile. When you get the book email me and I will email you to see if you can find the section pertaining to the outbuildings. ....

Reply to | Quote Post Reply to PostQuote Reply | Add PhotoAdd Photo



Return to index    Go Top


Share This



Tractorpoint Parts
Fast Delivery!
Low Prices
Tractor Turbocahrgers for sale
Turbochargers