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A Question for the Murf Meister

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DRankin
Join Date: Jan 2000
Posts: 5111 Northern Nevada
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2005-01-05          103589


A long time ago, in a far away place.... we were talking about fuel transfer.

You said you used air pressure to dispense fuel from a sealed tank.

Could you run over the specifics, one more time. My recollection was that you said you got good flows at as little as 5 psi.

Thanks.

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A Question for the Murf Meister

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Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999
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2005-01-06          103637


You rang sire ? .......


Yes, absolutely. There are several ways we do it depending on the situation.

In our temporary work yards we use 55 gallon drums, since they are all equipped with 2 standard sized 'bung' fittings it is very easy to do. All 'standard' drums, regardless of size, have one 2" NPS and one 3/4" NPS opening.

We use the steel 2" plug and drill a hole through it, then braze in a piece of 1" black pipe. The pipe has the bottom cut into a V-shape and extends right to the bottom of the drum. We then thread a 90 elbow (with two female threads) onto the top of the pipe. A 'standard' piece of fuel hose then threads into the elbow and a fuel nozzle (like on a gas pump) completes the first piece.

The second plug, the 3/4" one is drilled and has a pipe brazed into it as well. This one gets only an air quick-connect fitting. We then use an air line equipped with a regulator to step the pressure down to a safe level and maintain that pressure as the fuel leaves the barrel.

The air pressure can be run (depending on how full the barrel is) at anything above 5 psi. The variance is the total height you need the fuel to climb to, and the speed at which you want it to accomplish this.

If, for instance, you set the drum up on a stand a few feet above grade, say at truck bed height so you merely have to 'roll out the barrel', then basically all you have to do is get the fuel going up over the top of the drum, from there it is basically siphoning itself out.

A friend of mine does it this way, he built basically a small loading ramp out of railway timbers and soil, the top of which is the same height as the bed of his pickup. Things can then just be rolled directly into or out of a pickup truck. He buys his diesel in barrels, they load with a forklift and he just rolls them out and leaves them in the corner of the ramp.

We also have several truck-mounted tanks that are left in pickups. They are used transport truck tanks. Since they are already equipped with openings in the bottom of them we just make the openings larger and thread them to accept a 1" fuel hose. Any small machine shop or good welding shop can do this for you. In this case you only need a little air since the fuel is already above the box floor height at least.

A word of caution here though. If you use this design, be sure to make a place to 'park' the fuel nozzle that is high enough that it cannot siphon accidentally if there is a leak. It is also good practice to drain the hose back into the barrel after each use to prevent this or discourage 'borrowing' of your fuel by others.

Best of luck. ....

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A Question for the Murf Meister

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DRankin
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2005-01-06          103644


I have had to move my 50 gallon "L" shaped, steel "pick-up bed" type tank to an area that does not have easy access to power.

It has two bung type openings like a 55 gallon drum. I am hoping to use one opening to drop a siphon tube to the bottom and the other opening as a combo pressure port/pressure gauge/pressure relief port.

It will be pumping from ground level and will need to fill the tank on the 4115 at about 50 inches above ground level.

I plan to run it with a 10 gallon carry-around pressure tank.

I am making two assumptions:

1) That the I can get enough pressure into the tank to deliver the fuel to the top of the tractor, and,

2) That the welded steel tank will handle the needed pressure without bulging or worse.

Thoughts?? ....

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A Question for the Murf Meister

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Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999
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2005-01-06          103645


Certainly a flat-sided tank will take less pressure to distort than a rounded one, but the top & bottom of a drum is flat also.

The one problem that may arise is that the less fuel there is in the tank, the more volume of air you will need to put into it before any pressure will even start to build. You may run out of air before the fuel transfer is complete.

Is there some way you can make a platform of some kind to elevate the tank some? Every inch you raise it is that much less you have to overcome. Even waist high would make a big difference, then you are moving the fuel horizontally rather than vertically.

Depending on your situation and the tank location, you may want to look into a 12 volt pump, they can be a little spendy but work very well. You wouldn't need any battery since any time you are fuelling up you have the 4115 or RTV there and it has 12 volts.

The easy way to tell is to get a plug that fits one of the openings in the tank and put a little air to it slowly and see at what pressure you have motion in the sides of the tank.

Best of luck. ....

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A Question for the Murf Meister

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DRankin
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2005-01-06          103647


Thanks, Murf. You're a peach. ....

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A Question for the Murf Meister

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Murf
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2005-01-06          103648


Hope it helps, almost anything is better than standing there with a 5 gallon jerry can waiting to see what empties first, the diesel in the jerry can or the blood in your arms.

....

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A Question for the Murf Meister

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shortmagnum
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2005-01-06          103660


Mark and Murf, Sorry to break into this thread but how much pressure is required is the kind of question that I can't just ignore.

Assumptions:
1 gal fuel weighs 6 lbs
1 gal is 231 cubic in (in^3)

The force of fuel pushing up from the barrel (Fu) has to equal the force pushing down (Fd) from the hose (or greater).

Fu = pressure(P)*area(A)
Fd = density(D)*height(H)*area(A)

Fu = Fd
P*A = D*H*A

divide A from both sides

P[lbs/in^2]= D[lbs/in^3]*H[in]

Then for a density of 0.026[lbs/in^3] and a height of 60 inches, the pressure to get the fuel to a sixty inch height would be:
P = 0.026[lbs/in^3]*60[in]= 1.56 [lbs/in^2]

This sounds really low, but if you think about a column one in^2 in area, 60 inches high, it holds only about 1/4 gallon weighing about 1.5 lbs. So depending on how much flow you want you'll have to have at least this much pressure. It doesn't matter if your hose goes straight up or off at an angle, it's the total height you need to push it that's important.
Dave ....

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____________________________________________________________________________________
A Question for the Murf Meister

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bmlekki
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 185 Upstate, NY
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2005-01-06          103661


Check out my pic number #3.

I love that thing no spilled fuel or lifting cans...

DRankin -
Do you have a power inverter?

I'm not sure how much power a small but decent AC air compressor would use but that would help your problem of having enough volume carried in you 10 gal tank. ....

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A Question for the Murf Meister

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Murf
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2005-01-06          103666


Dave, first of all, there is no need to apologize for 'breaking into' a thread, if either of us had meant it as private communication it would have been, by email or other such medium. The whole point of public dissemination of information is for all who see it to learn from it.

However, to learn from it, it must be factual.

I believe you will find that diesel fuel is a little heavier than the figure you used, it ranges from 6.8 pounds per gallon up to about 7.3 pounds depending on the grade. Number 2 or 'pump' diesel is about 7.0 pounds per gallon.

I believe you also made a small ommission in your calculation of the weight of the fuel to be raised to the tank. The volume, and therefore the weight, is not just a function of the diameter of the hose, but also the length. The 50" quoted was from ground level to top of tank. If the tank is 24" high, and full then the fuel would only have to up the last 26". Only if the tank was empty would it have to go up 50".

You also made a small error in that you stated that it doesn't matter if the hose is straight up or on an angle. If the hose is on a shallow angle, there is far more fuel in the hose to be displaced to get it up into the tank, rember a head of air behind the fuel means we are merely converting the tank into a hydraulic system, the ir being the 'pump' and gravity being the 'load', to increase the load you must proportionately increase the 'pressure' to accomplish the same work.

Your calculation also only takes into account the static weight of the fuel at your numbers, there is no 'extra' pressure there over and above the balance point of just getting it there to create a reasonable flow rate.

Best of luck. ....

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A Question for the Murf Meister

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shortmagnum
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2005-01-06          103679


Murf, I'll give you the weight of the fuel. I used the six pounds per gallon we used to use for calculating avgas. I suppose I could have looked up the correct weight.

You're right, the weight is a function of the volume, but the x-sectional area of the tube drops out of the calculation so total weight is not needed in the estimate. It takes no more pressure to push fuel up in a 3" diamater hose than a one inch diameter hose. With a larger hose the cross sectional area increases the same for the fuel pushing down as the pressurized fuel pushing up.

I agree about the full barrel, half-full barrel. I was trying to keep it simple.

I still say it doesn't matter whether the hose is straight up and down or at an angle. You get the same force down vector at any specific height. It's well known that height, not volume is what determines force at the bottom of a tube when gravity is the force producer. You can have a 100' hose at some small angle from the ground and if it's total height at the top end is 60" it will have the same pressure at the low end as if it was a vertical 60" hose. So I don't agree that you can use a typical hydraulic system analogy.

You're right, I calculated the static pressure to just hold up the volume. I did say that it would have to be greater than that for flow. I was agreeing with the earlier statement that 5 PSI would be about right (especially if you've already done it :-) ). ....

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A Question for the Murf Meister

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DRankin
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2005-01-07          103730


This is turning into the Murf Quiz Show....

OK, Next question: What is the best/easiest way to split a pipe for the Murf pipe snow plow conversion? ....

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A Question for the Murf Meister

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Murf
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2005-01-07          103733


The best method is undoubtedly a plasma cutter, however I know this is not exactly a 'homeowner's' tool. Many welding and fabricating shops do have them though, as do a lot of steel sales outlets. If you are buying the pipe from them they will often slit it for you for a small fee.

In the 'average home workshop' category, a disc grinder or gas torhes will do the job also, although not as quickly or neatly.

I would say 'best/easiest' choice would be a toss up, between a disc grinder with a cutting disc, or a reciprocating saw (sawzall).

If you use a grinder, make a series of full-length passes along a scribed line, each one getting successively deeper. If you try to cut like you would with a circular saw the relatively thin blade will likely grab and shatter, the resulting shrapnel can be rather more exciting than the average person would care for.

With a reciprocating saw, put the blade inside the pipe with the saw upside down and held at a very shallow angle, then cut along the scribed line.

The saw will likely make such a thin cut though you would need to make a second pass next to the first in order to open it up enough to get it over the bucket edge. With the grinder it usually makes a wide enough slit that a BFH or a little 'persuasion' pushing against the ground will force the edge in.

Now.... I'll take "Interesting Implements" for $200.00 ...

Best of luck. ....

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A Question for the Murf Meister

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NHDaveD
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2005-01-22          104681


I was reading this thread and thinking about the differnt ideas when I remembered that when I was a young lad I used to go visit my Aunt & Uncle's farm. On this farm he had a gasoline tank in the side yard by the driveway and on this gasoline tank he had a pump and on this pump it had a hand crank - eee iii eee iii ooo.

So I looked at both Grainger's and Northern Tool and they have all types of pumps - manual, 12 volt DC, & 120 volt AC. The link is below to Grainger's so you can get an idea.

In fact I'm thinking of building one myself with a hand operated pump. My wife will use the tractor sometimes but, if it needs more fuel she has to wait for me to get home. Like Murf said - anythings better than holding 5 gallons at eye level (at least my wife's eye level) and waiting to see what drains first.

Any ideas where I might be able to get a metal can with the normal drum bungs. I'm looking for something in the 10 to 15 gallon range. I'm leary of the blue plastic ones - don't know if they meet the safety requirements like the approved fuel cans(red, blue, & yellow)do.

Thanks ....


Link:   

Click Here


 
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A Question for the Murf Meister

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DRankin
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2005-01-22          104696


I can't remember which catalog.... probably NT.... but they had a red gas can with a hand operated air pump to pressurize it and a nozzle on a 6 foot hose to dispense the fuel.

Might be just the ticket... ....

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A Question for the Murf Meister

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DennisCTB
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2013-11-01          188253


Hey Murf have not heard from you in a while why so quiet?

Dennis ....

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A Question for the Murf Meister

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kthompson
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2013-11-01          188257


Quote:
Originally Posted by DennisCTB | view 188253
Hey Murf have not heard from you in a while why so quiet?Dennis


I wonder if just me or was Murf back in my neighborhood eating BBQ. Really noticed when he did not chime in on your lawn.
....

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