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marklugo
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2003-02-19          49502

Can anyone confirm that approximately 10 days ago that Yanmar has sent out another letter to its dealers that all parts are being completely cut off to its dealers? A large Yanmar importer said he was through with them because of this. Any one care to touch this? How about it Dave? Any truth?

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DavesTractor
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2003-02-19          49538

Parts are still available, but getting them from Yanmar USA for a gray machine is going to be more difficult. Apparently Yanmar USA got named as a defendant in a lawsuit involving an injury or death that occurred in the US on a gray tractor. They were pulled into the suit because it was shown that a good deal of the parts they sell are for grays, not the USA Yanmars. In essence, the plaintiff attorney was able to make a convincing argument that Yanmar was giving tacit approval of bringing in the grays by way of supporting them here. A bit of a stretch, but when you have a loss of life or serious injury, all defendants are sought out, especially those with deep pockets. Yanmar has now taken a stronger stance and officially states there position, in no uncertain terms, on their website.

So what do we do? You can still order parts for USA Yanmars, but they require a model number and serial number to verify that the parts are going on a USA tractor. I am not a Yanmar parts dealer, but apparently they can still make monthly stock orders without serial numbers. I would think the shelves will remain full of the commonly used parts, but it will take a bigger parts investment by the dealer.

Keep in mind that many companies, such as Frederick's Importing, have been developing aftermarket sources for many parts even prior to this recent event. Also companies like West Kentucky Tractor Parts have a large supply of parts tractors. There are a few common parts to John Deere (actually thousands...but never the ones we seem to need). Most seals and bearing, filters, belts, hoses, etc are common hardware items.

What we are doing if we get into a bind is to just order the parts directly from Japan. We bring over a container every 6 weeks or so, so if it is not a hurry, we can have our supplier put a box of parts in the container. If we need the parts ASAP, we have them FedEx'd. It takes 2 days for FedEx to get a part from Osaka to Red Bluff. FedEx isn't cheap.

We are also importing Iseki's. The newer models are really nice. There are not as many parts resources, but we are learning that most parts can be bought via an Agco dealer, or from an Iseki dealer (yes there is an Iseki dealer in the US...Rainbow Distributing in Hawaii). For the sake of time, and because my knowledge is limited, I won't go into the model numbers and how they cross over to White, Bolens, Massey, or Caterpillar (the new Cat CUT's are Iseki TA's).

Now my disclaimer....guys like Len and others are the true guru's on the parts issues. I'm not, although I am learning. If my statements above are wrong or need clarification, I'd welcome the input.

....

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marklugo
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2003-02-19          49561

Thanks,

It has been my concern since gray markets have been being dumped on the American Market, that a lot of problems were being created long term. I know you and others sell them and need to make a living. But the fact is that these tractors just weren't meant for stupid, letigious minded Americans. People get killed and hurt everyday on tractors as it is but without ROPS shields, saftey devices, dealers are inviting trouble, even if they relieve their guilt by having customers sign a release. The problem exists with the fact that these are appealing tractors to first time buyers. ( Flies love flypaper, they are just too dumb to know it means their death) Generally buyers who buy these tractors are uneducated and unprepared to safely operate a tractor anyway. The first time something happens, it is the tractors or dealers fault (certainly no one wants to accept responsibility for his own ignorance.) They find them a fancy lawyer and then the rest is all down hill. It gives the tractor industry (dealers in particular) a black eye everytime you read of a tractor related death or injury. I just hope that this market (and I mean no offense) will just fade away and restore the market it has taken from legitimate new tractor companies. ....

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DavesTractor
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2003-02-19          49562

Mark, I also sell new Bransons and used compacts built in Japan but sold new in the USA, such as New Holland, John Deere and Kubota.

I understand your remarks and they hold some truth. You and I will differ in our conclusion of the value of gray market tractors though, but that is OK.

Many of the older "USA" compacts do not have ROPS or shields, nor do the popular 8N and 9N tractors that also appeal to new buyers. Our society is very litigious, and few are willing to admit or take responsibility for their own actions...but that is not just a tractor issue.

I think the gray markets provide a high quality tractor at a reasonable price, and if done honestly, they really do provide a great value. Are there a lot of flakes that call themselves "dealers" and start selling Yanmars? Yes there are...too many in fact. But there are a number of us that do it right. We're happy to sell a few tractors and I think that the JD, Kubota and NH guys have little to fear. ....

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marklugo
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2003-02-20          49592

I understand your reasoning, but I think my main contention is that these tractors are aimed at first time buyers ho would ordinarily buy a new one. Many times (because of new paint and those high tread rice patty tires), many people think that these are relatively new tractors and they bite the barbed hook. They have little or no reason to suspect otherwise. Yes we have used tractors here in the U.S. but this is problem enough. There is a little known law or statute that used U.S. tractors.( It probably applies to grays as well) if sold by a dealer must meet ROPS standards. This is often ignored but creates a liability on a dealers part to provide basic saftey devices and retrofit all tractors coming on their lot. This includes 8N's. There are many aftermarket ROPS providers that are equiping these tractors. The problem is that there is little or no way to provide ROPS on these gray market tractors. This could easily(although I'm no legal beagle) be construed as negligence by a jury or court and open one stinky can of worms for everyone. ....

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DavesTractor
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2003-02-20          49617

Mark, to the best of my knowledge, there is no requirement that we install ROPS on the used tractors we sell. The lack of ROPS is a valid concern, and one that I discuss with each and every customer. A tractor can be rolled on flat ground, but for the most part they are rolled when equipped with a loader and operated unsafely or on uneven terrain. I have encouraged buyers to not buy a non-ROPS tractor in some situations. Every tractor comes with manuals, including a very good safety manual. Most people with ROPS equipped tractors fail to use safety belts. At that point, the ROPS just becomes something to be trapped under. If you have a ROPS, buckle up!

About half (just a guess) of our buyers are first time buyers. Most can easily afford a new tractor if they chose to do so. Many of the locals are orchardist. There are no ROPS in orchards, even if it is a brand new JD.

I am wondering why you are concerned that we are hurting the mainstream dealers? I have read an earlier thread (which I think Len responded to) that was along the same lines. Perhaps you have just seen too many gray dealers that did a really lousy job and/or misrepresented the product. Just be aware that there is a group of us that are very honest and ethical in what we do.

I myself get irritated often by bogus claims by unscrupulous "dealers". Recently a guy on ebay was advertising a YM2000 as only having 10 hours and only being a couple years old and having 30HP. All of which is a baldface lie. I contacted the guy and he said he thought it to be true. He's either stupid or a liar, and I'd guess the latter mixed with the former. Guys like that need to go. Of course I suppose there are more than a couple dishonest dealers out there selling JD, NH or Kubota as well.

I suspect we will remain in disagreement over this, but I appreciate the kind manner in which you respond. ....

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Misenplace
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2003-02-22          49751

I recently considered one of theese tractors. There were a number of things that bothered me not the least of which was that I needed to check references on the sellers. One of my tactics was to try to get a couple of parts prices for the tractor I was looking at. I literally found scads of parts dealers, or so I thought. as I pulled up many of the web sites there were notes that they could no longer get parts so they had quit the buisiness. Many others just didn't respond. Two did but neither could get parts or would quote prices.That was pretty much the nail in the coffin. In the end I personally just didn't find them to be a very good deal. Many of the sellers want to sell sight un seen which to say the least doesn't seem a very prudent decesion.The thing that really bothered me the most was that all of them I looked at were low hour machines. Ya, I know the story about only being able to till twice a year in the land of rice, I also know that there not subject to our laws regarding turning back hour meters or odometers. Add to that the fact that parts are only getting more difficult to get and it was a easy decesion not to buy one of theese. ....

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marklugo
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2003-02-24          49919

Dave, I encourage you to check into the requirements of ROPS. Unless they have very recently changed it, you may be pooping bricks. :0 A few years ago, Farm Equipment Today had several series of articles on this very issue. I don't recall issue dates but surely someone at that fine dealer publication would have some knowledge of the archives. ....

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DavesTractor
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2003-02-24          49920

Mark,

No offense, but if you have specific law or code, spell it out. Hinting at it doesn't help anyone.

I'll say it again, to the best of my knowledge there is not a law requiring ROPS on used tractors. I'd be glad to look into anything to the contrary.

Thanks,

Dave ....

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Misenplace
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2003-02-24          49926

Dave, You may want to check with your advisors. I really doubt there is a trade law on used tractors, however the real concern might be litigation. If you are a Licensed dealer, IE: collecting sales tax, store front etc. You will by the courts be considered a professional. Therefore you would most likely be bound by some sort of express or implied warranty that the item is safe. I doubt all the waivers in the world would help if you are aware that a tractor is safer with a ROPS and you sell one without to save $. Especially if someone was killed and there was documentation like a forum strand that proved you were aware of the danger. It might be worth the price of a phone call. Just my 2.5 cents worth ....

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DavesTractor
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2003-02-24          49929

Docs, I worked in the liability insurance world for 17 years before we started our full time tractor business a few years ago. Tort law is not foreign to me. Anyone can be brought into a lawsuit for any reason, and one with knowledge can be held to a higher standard. Your point is well taken.

Consider all the older cars that do not have airbags. A car with airbags is safer, yet a used car dealer can legally sell a non-airbag car. An older car with only lap belts is really less safe, yet can still be sold. Can a car dealer be sued just because he sold an older car with less safety provisions? The answer is yes. Will the plaintiff prevail, probably not. Must he take any older car and equip it with shoulder belts, side crush protection, frontal crush zones, airbags, ABS brakes...etc? I don't think so. Now if a dealer were to disconnect the airbag on a newer car and not tell the customer...that wouldn't take a jury long to decide. If a dealer were to represent the old car as new and deceive the customer (as some tractor guys do on Ebay), that would be another can of worms.

My point is that it is not illegal nor unethical to sell these tractors. It should not be inferred that it is. If there is code that refutes this, we should all know about it.

I suspect that tractors get a little safer each year, and selling the older tractors is similar to selling older cars. We must be honest and upfront with our customers, represent the tractors as what they are, nothing more or less.

....

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Misenplace
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2003-02-24          49931

Dave, I Have previously stated I doubt that there is any law against selling used tractors without ROPS. Now as far as the anolagy of airbags, I just don't think it flies. I do not want to argue or be dissrespectfull in any way. If you were in the insurance buisinees you really should know that in the example you stated the plaintiff most likely WOULD prevail, not as far as the letter of the law is concerned but you and I both know that it is far more cost effective for the insurance company to settle the case than try it. Furthermore it will be argued in the case of the tractor that they are brought in to the country with the full knowledge that they are not deseigned to comply with us trade laws and the primary purpose for importing is what will be referred to as excessive profit and gross negligence. I doubt it will be an issue much longer. If I Understand the law correctly it is currently illegal to import a grey Kubota. A few more deaths and that will be the end of the grey market. I'm confident that you realize there is a contingent of individuals out there importing theese by the container and selling out of their garage to unknowing first time buyers who are only looking at price. ....

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DRankin
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2003-02-24          49937

One of the many lawyers I have worked with over the years once told me a truism:

Anybody with fifty bucks in his pocket and a map to the courthouse can file suit on anybody for anything.

It has gotten so bad in Nevada that we have 'doctor flight' to other states and folks, especially expectant mothers cannot find treatment at any price. The state legislature is actively considering solutions to the problem, but I think the answer is obvious. ....

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Misenplace
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2003-02-24          49939

Nevada Certainly isn't the only state with that problem. The world would certainly be a happier place if common sense were the order of the day. But then sense really isn't so common any more. Our society is so litegous we are even premptively banning new products that could make a world of difference not only to many people but the enviornment as well. ....

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DavesTractor
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2003-02-25          49946

Doc, I understand ethics. My question was not meant to be cute. It was a sincere question seeking an honest answer.

The example of a used car dealership getting sued becaused they failed to retrofit an older car with current safety devices was meant as an example to make a point. If you really feel that a plaintiff making that case would prevail... then we are certainly on a different page. Yes, sometimes insurance comapnies do chose to buy a release to avoid the high cost of litigating a case, but that really is a different issue. I could go into the theory behind that and the cyclical results, but that is off point.

A fair bit of your post is offensive to me, and it takes all the restraint I can muster to not give you a point by point rebuttal. But I think we have both made our points and have drawn different conclusions and perhaps it is best left in that manner.

Best regards,

Dave

....

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Misenplace
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2003-02-25          49954

Dave; Firstly let me say If I have offended that was not my intention. As far as Ethics go I was NOT reffering to you, I'm sure you are a stand up guy. BUT, I also think you are as such, a minority in so far as the greys are concerned. I recently traveled to three states to drive several of theese units and talked to several more dealers about several dozen other yanmars. I didn't buy one because I personally felt that they were a poor value. That may be different for the next person. I didn't Think your question to be cute and my response was not intended to be cute either. In my own not so humble opinion it was just a poor analagy. The grey area is just that. Some people tread in it when they file their taxes and others when they buy a tractor. I do not personally agree with all of the litigation, But I also realize that it is part of life, right or wrong, good or bad its there. The biggest thing that left me a little puzzled was how is there hundreds of theese units that are 20-30 years old, but gee none have more than 1,000 hours on them ? so yes lets say we dissagree areeably. It's a free country and lets do our best to keep it that way. I do respect your opinion but my perspective on the reasons they are allowed in with or without safety features is vastly different than yours. By the way, what would it cost a dealer to install those devices and just avoid the potential problems ? The prices I saw on theese ran from 4k to 7k for the same model, although for 7k you did get a fresh coat of paint. ....

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DRankin
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2003-02-25          49972

Gotta weigh in again.... How far back do we take this liability issue? I like the used car/airbag analogy. It works for me, especially if we dial back the clock a bit.

There is a guy down the road with several beautifully restored Cockshutt farm tractors. What would happen to the antique/collector value of these machines if/when he (or his estate) is forced to sell them and they have to add a ROPS to a sixty year old tractor out of fear of a lawsuit?

I can foresee a time coming when, ruled by fear, we destroy valuable pieces of history, lest some goober hurt himself on it. ....

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greg1
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2003-02-25          49973

Docs,
Have you checked on the cost of a ROPS for an older, oh say John Deere tractor that was built for the U.S. market before ROPS was required? The last time I checked, it cost about half the price of a gray market tractor. ....

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marklugo
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2003-02-25          49974

Actually as far back as 1976. There is plenty of osha info on the web. A cursory search gave me this link which I think which the information is a little too watered down for me but should give the uninformed a good dose of indigestion. The point is that any employer or self employed person operating a tractor must have it installed. However, there is plenty of case law that has placed the responsibility on the dealer completely. ....


Link:    ROPS Requirement

 
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DocksKnotInn
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2003-02-25          49975

Hey, I agree completely. I just can't agree with the auto analagy because its compareing a domestic product to a domestic product. What we are talking about are products that are made to a lower standard for foreign use and then re-imported based soley on the profit motive. If there were not higher profit margins to be made by selling theese most likely no one would bother with them. Again I say try to inport a Grey Kubota, not gonna happen, the others will follow soon. I think a more accurate analagy would be to say that a auto company brand X makes a Model Y. They sell model Y under several different name brands in the us and all contain safety glass and brakes on all four wheels. some of the higher brands contain air bags while even higher up the chain we might see side impact air bags. Now company X also manufactures model Y for export. No safety glass and only brakes on the rear wheels, Hey it runs steers and stops ! So someone decides I can make a extra buck and hit a whole new market of people who cant afford or dont want to pay for the US model. the dealer fully explains the difference. Customer leaves gets killed in an accident where breaking was an issue and is ejected through the window. Now will our esteemed seewage happy barister prevail for his client ???? ....

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Heidy Hoe
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2003-02-25          49978

Hey of youre trying to suggest that a ROPS system will cost several thousand Bucks I'll bet Docs gonna give up on the idea of of ROPS for the john at deer camp real quick ! Hey there might even be some sewage there, but at that price it will certainly be more cost effective to buy more insurance and just let em fall in ! LOL ....

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marklugo
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2003-02-25          49981

Heidy heidy ho, when that tractor overturns, you won't be able to go-oooo!

The problem is that a lot of idiots thought the same things about seat belts. Smart people use them and dumb ones die.(by the way, a rops doesn't do its job unless the seat belt is used.) ....

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DRankin
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2003-02-25          49982

Doc.... maybe I am getting your point now.

Are you saying that on a given date a grey tractor was produced and that it didn't meet US safety standards from day one?

That it could not meet import standards when it was brand new, so what's it doing here now? ....

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DennisCTB
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2003-02-25          49983

Marks Link is below on ROPS safety, Mark you left the "l" off the file extension html.
....


Link:   Marks Rops link

 
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Misenplace
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2003-02-25          49984

Hey you guys are killing first the cost of a ROPS and now a safety belt ! How much is that gonna cost ?? Mark, NO, they NEVER were made with the same features,. That's why they are cheap. That's why ALL of the manufactures like Yanmar have made their position on this theese real clear on their web site. They don't want to be sued. That's why Kubota has worked with the government to ban the importation of greys. Plus no one likes to discuss the fact that there imported from Asia, and they don't have our trade laws about turning back hour meters so it's likely done before they ship. Now the sales pitch is that in poor countries like china and malaysa the farmers just wanna be like us good ol boys in the US sooo bad that they buy new tractors real often, so they can have a new status symbol even though they only use them twice a year. Wanna buy a bridge ? Hey don't laugh this is actually the explanation used by a number of grey market dealers on the web. ....

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greg1
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2003-02-25          49985

Doc,
Perhaps you didn't realize that the ruling on Kubota imporation was made through the SEC and had nothing to do with safety or liability, but simply with competition. Kubota didn't like being undercut by their own products. Incidentally Kubota was able to to this because they are the ONLY Japanese tractor manufacturer that sells their products under their own name in the U.S. as well as Japan.

If you buy a tractor based on the hours on the meter, you are a fool. I have seen plenty of used Kubotas that were 20+ years old and had much less than 1000 hrs. Now 1000 hours of well maintained and reasonable work is nothing. The tractor is just broken in. 1000 hours of abuse and neglect makes it a piece of junk.

And yes, ROPS can cost a couple of grand. ....

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Misenplace
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2003-02-25          49986

Mark, I'll try to get this right. I'm still laughing about that Heidi remark. You might want to try this www.rorfgw.com and look for Intelectual Property Rights. You will find similar info with the US Customs. theese products will not be getting in much sooner due to the fact that The manufacturers, in this case Yanmar, is pressing the issue with the government about letting products in to the US that infringe on their trademark even if it was origionally made by them but not for the US market. The relavance to this strand is that parts are about to become a whole lot harder to get, Not to mention more expensive. My final thought on this topic is if parts are so easy to get why do the majority (vast) only sell parts to those who bought a tractor from them ?? Short supply ....

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Misenplace
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2003-02-25          49988

gregg, see the ITC was involved but not the securites exchange commission, I think those are the folks who watch stocks and bonds, other finacials. Try www.kubota.com/graycourt.cfm ....

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greg1
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2003-02-25          49989

Doc,
Did you ever buy a used car? I've bought plenty - but its not for everyone. You have to be able to assess the condition of the car regardless of miles on the odo. All I'm saying is that its the same with tractors - don't go by the hours.

And actually, most of the gray market tractors are old enough that they did meet the safety requirements that were in effect in the U.S. at the time they were manufactured for Japan.

All I can say is that I have 3 yanmar tractors, and love them. They are all gray market tractors. I just moved mountains of snow with a little 16hp tractor and a 42" front blade. We had 24" of the white stuff a week and a half ago. That little tractor never missed a beat. Oh, and I've had the tractor for a year and a half, and the hour meter still says 169.4, just like it did when I got it. How many hours are on it? Heck, I've no idea. But I do know it is one hard working, great running tractor. ....

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Misenplace
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2003-02-25          49990

Gregg, I think were splitting mighty fine hairs. The debate is not what you or I would do or have done. I agree with you to a point on the hours, BUT, I have a reasonable expectation when I buy any car, new or used, domestic or imported to trust in the odometer or hour meter being accurate. The point is that a lot of people are being miss lead and some flat out cheated. Just like car dealers we all know about buddy dogs used cars Vs. a reputable dealer. The real point is that theese are going to cease to be impoted in the VERY near future and that parts are going to be even harder to get. These corporations have a legal right to protect their investment and a duty to their share holders to protect profits. Due to the fact that people are being injured on them, there is no tech support by the companys who make them and there is a very limited parts availability the consumer ends up angry at the manufacturer and in the end that may cause the demise of the corporation. We could debate this ad nauseum. I can direct you to countless legal firms, customs, company web sites, etc. etc. etc. that all point in the same direction. Are they a good product or not, I don't know. I don't have one. The best deal I saw that was compareable to the JD I just bought was only a couple grand cheaper after it was set up the same with the same implements. For 2k I get a warranty, Factory service, Support, Parts ANYWHERE, and a tractor thats not 20 + years old with who knows how many hours on it. Nope I'm no fool. I didn't buy based on hours. I bought based on hours of research and what was right for me. ....

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Misenplace
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2003-02-25          49992

THE official Yanmar stance at www.yanmar.com/news/grey_tractor.pdf ....

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marklugo
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2003-02-25          49993

gregg, I'm sorry, but your information is not completely accurate. The YM 1500 and its sister series, were made for around 10 years, spanning 1969-1979. This falls right in the middle of the ROPS requirements for tractors. It is almost impossible for the average Joe Japan to determine serial numbers and match dates of manufacture. This is not the only saftey standard that has been in place. Saftey start switches, PTO shields,Engine fan and Belt gaurds, and other standards have existed for a long time. The fact is that most of the tractors sold have met few if any of the US and OSHA Standards.
DAVE said that half of his customers were new buyers. What a indicting statement of liability. These people are ignorant of which is the business end of the tractor and much less knowlegeable about safe tractor operation. Farming is the most dangerous industry in the US. Anyone wonder why? These tractors were not intended for anything but Agriculture to start with. Many of these tractors have adapapted 3 pt hitches that have been rigged by the importers to substiute for the 1 or 2 point hitches that the tractors were designed for.
I will not say that there would not be a legitimate use for them in the US with the development of proper shielding ROPS and Saftey features to retrofit. These tractors sell cheap, many thousands less than the equivalent used American market Japanese tractors. If they had equivalent protection, they would be in the same neighborhood in price. Then they would have to compete on features and other issues that everyone else in the tractor market has to. But what won't aman do for a quick and fast buck. ....

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DavesTractor
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2003-02-25          49996

Doc, these tractors come from China? Since when? Mark, the fact that half my buyers are new buyers is an indicting statement of liability? Then you go on to say my customers are ignorant as well. Sorry guys, I can't buy that.

Guys, you have my dander up. I come to this board to help people that have questions about tractors. It appears this thread has turned into a gray market bashing frenzy by a couple of you guys.

I am trying to add some balance and perspective, but I find myself instead wanting to rebut the improper information being spewed here. It is clear though that any reasoning on my part will just get twisted around in an attempt to make me look like a greedy uncaring unethical dealer. There really is no reason to waste the time to reply.

Doc and Mark, I am not saying that every point you make is incorrect. Poor "dealers" out there warrant some of your remarks. I would ask though that you not paint us all with the same brush. ....

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greg1
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2003-02-25          49998

Dave,
I agree completely. Want to bash something? Go ahead, but you won't find me here again.

Good Bye! ....

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greg1
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2003-02-25          49999

Oh, sorry that didn't come out quite like I meant. Here goes again.

Dave,
I agree completely.

Doc and Mark,
Go ahead and bash. I'm out-a-here. I hope your board moderator is as good at squashing flamers as he is at removing all references to the really good discussion boards. ....

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Misenplace
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2003-02-25          50001

Firstly I did not flame any body. I won't speak for anyone else but I don't see any flames here. If your feelings are going to get hurt then don't show up and try to run incomplete or untrue data as facts. This is a friendly forum for the purpose of educateing those who may have questions or want answears. The way to do that is with factual information not opinions. You have produced a lot of innuendo. I have produced FACTS, government web sites, legal firms and corporate statements that address this issue better than I would ever be able to. You say you've been flamed, well kindly produce 1 (ONE) single US government web site by a recognized US enforcement agency or branch of our judicial system that proves what you say, can't do that ? Hey, I'm easy to get along with, Produce 1 (ONE) single web site or page from a manufacturer selling in the USA who is in support of gray market units because they are safe. Still can't do that ??? OK Ok, look, I'll settle for a web addres of any nationally recoginized law firm that specializes in Federal or import law stateing that Theese companys have no claim or legal right to protect their trademarks or profits. I have never said 1 single word about any one individuals tractor or addressed them as an individual. So that really rules out Flamers. If you don't like the taste that doesn't mean the milks sour. The only reason I feel confident in posting on this issue is that I recently spent a lot of time and effort considering one of theese. Again For ME it was a poor value, But EVERYONE has the right to be informed about what they are potentially going to buy especially with the parts market about to get closed tighter than a Drum. Intelligent articulate people should be able to express their opinions and dissagre peaceably and in a friendly manner. ....

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DRankin
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2003-02-25          50002

Gee, Dave:

Maybe we should point out the fact that someone else sells 4wd, 24 horse diesel tractors with front loaders, three point hitches, pto's and all the stuff we associate with compact tractors.

Well, except for one thing.
ROPS.
No ROPS.

Well, actually two things, there are no seatbelts either.

If there is something wrong with Dave's thinking and business ethics, then he is in fine company with Big Green.

Don't take my word for it folks, go the the John Deere web site and check out the X595. ....

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Misenplace
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2003-02-25          50003

Dave, I do by the way take great exception to you even hinting that I have suggested that you as an individual are greedy or a unethical dealer in ANY way. In fact I actually specifically said that I was not reffering to you but to other dealers who are takeing advantage of unknowing consumers and who usually work out of a home garage, IE-NOT Professionals. I am quite fine with you and your opinion, You are entitled to it, I respect it as I have previously stated, Yet I also dissagree with you. I have offered proofs. It is really a moot point if you can not offer any thing other than a hypothetical analagy. Lets talk Fact. This Strand is about PARTS, Not you as a dealer or flameing ETC. Parts are going to get tight and buyers have a right to know that. I have also said before, I'm sure youre a stand up fellow, I'm sure you let every customer know about parts availability and safety features or lack of. I have no reason to think other wise. ....

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proudYanmar owner
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2003-02-25          50006

Dave said you guys have gotten his dander up--and for good reason. If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, then it must be a duck--or maybe a flamer. Listen, I'm a grey market Yanmar owner--and I'm quite please about it. I saved a lot of money, and have a tractor that I'd put up against many US brands anyday. Of course I knew the safety considerations when I bought my tractor, but I do have enough sense to operate it safely. If I do something stupid and get hurt, then who can I blame but myself?
....

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DRankin
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2003-02-25          50008

How do you regulate an 1100 pound, fully equipped, 24 horse, 4wd diesel as a mere lawn mower and then criticize Dave for selling a similar sized machine with 13 horsepower and call that a tractor? ....

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Misenplace
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2003-02-25          50009

THE X weighs 800 # TRUCE= T-R-U-C-E ....

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DRankin
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2003-02-25          50010

X595, 1095 lbs, and truce accepted. ....

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buppy69
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2003-02-25          50016

I have 4 grey market tractors, all 20+ years old. They all have PTO shields, starter safety switches and the like. Practically everything but the ROPS. I also have the sense to know its limitations and don't push that. As far as parts, if it never breaks down, you never need parts. ....

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tractor Ern.
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2003-02-25          50027

I almost joined this group
But there are to many YANMAR EXPERTS who have never owned one on here.
Maybe they are jealous of some one making a buck or two
Or they are dealers that have seen their sales go down
do the the yanmars.
What ever their reason, they are eating to many bullets
for breakfast,
Because they sure shoot their mouths off quite good I might say!
Im out of here !
....

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Heidi ohhhhhhhhh my
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2003-02-25          50033

ahhh, you almost joined, booo hooo. Did the little fella get his feelings hurt with the cold hard truth ? all theese knew names OH MY!! No guts no glory. Is this a tractor forum or a knitting contest. ....

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marklugo
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2003-02-25          50039

Look,
The last time I knew, this board still operated on the principle of freedom of speech. What I have said I will stand by. I have sold all kinds of tractors for the past 18 years, grey, RED, and red, white, and blue. I am saying what I have said based off experiences that I have had and ideas that have been forged and tested through time. I have seen things come and go. I also have dealer friends who have been selling for some (gasp!) 50 years who have helped me along. I have many friends and some enemies who sell grey market tractors. I have close to 25 dealer friends who sell grey market tractors. This is what the majority of them are telling me as well. Some have sold several 1000's of greys. Many are backing out of this market because they are have ethical conflicts with what is going on in the market. I think that the preponderance of evidence is against further development of the grey tractor market. Yes, I have owned Yanmar and have one special ordered from Japan through a friend. However, I know what I am getting and am going to use it to meet unique and special need. It also doesn't fall under the government reg's because of its size (mini) and the number of wheels:2. Who, in an ethical business sells something that they know they can't provide parts and technical service for what they sell? Any Yanmar dealers, unless they have special sources in Japan selling them parts, are unable to order any part for any grey market tractor or they will have their parts dealerships pulled. Its that simple. ....

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marklugo
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2003-02-25          50042

Dave,
In particular, for you, I have respect. I feel like you might be one of the few that have it together. However, as I have stated before in other words, you are one of the 2 or 3 good apples in the whole stinking barrel. Was it Ben Franklin that said, "If you lay down with the dogs, you will get up with the fleas."? Be careful and aware. I have always been the RADAR O'REILLY of the tractor business (able to hear the choppers before any one else). People who know me respect me for this. I have saved many dealers necks by a few simple words of advice. Be aware. ....

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bruce1966us
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2003-02-25          50045

marklugo,

With out going into any detail, you really don't know what you're talking about when it comes to Yanmar parts.

Thanks,
Bruce
....

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DennisCTB
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2003-02-25          50052

Guys I think I will need a staff of legal aids to sift thru all of this dialogue.

Thanks Mark, DavesTractor, Gregg, Doc and others for putting so much effort into this exchange.

I am going to start a new thread on this call Part II.

I would like each of you to put the readers digest version into the new thread of your thoughts on the topic.

DennisCTB
Board Moderator ....

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