Notes on compact tractor traction: Size Tractor Needed  -- General Tractor Discussion Forum and Review Notes on compact tractor traction: Size Tractor Needed -- General Tractor Discussion Forum

  parts   |   manuals   |   discussion   |   photos   |   podcast   |   reviews   |   specs   |   dealers   |   classifieds   |   contact   |   faq   |   myProfile   |   home          Login Now | Sign Up


FAQ:   What is a tractor?

Forum Index

Kubota Tractors
  Kubota News
  Kubota Price
  Kubota Review
John Deere Tractors
  John Deere News
  John Deere Price
  John Deere Review
New Holland Tractors
  New Holland Tractor Price
  New Holland Tractor Revie
Other Tractor Brands
  Articulated Tractors
  Belarus
  Bobcat Tractors
  Case
  Cub Cadet
  Hinomoto
  Kioti Tractor
  Long
  Massey Ferguson
  Mitsubishi
  Other Tractor Brands
  Other Tractor News
  Shibaura
  Yanmar Tractors
Lawn and Garden Tractors
  Craftsman
  Cub Cadet Garden
  John Deere Garden
  Kubota Lawn Garden
  Other Garden Tractors
  Simplicity
  Toro Wheelhorse
  Ventrac Lawn Tractors
Antique Tractors
  Allis Chalmers
  Case David Brown
  Farmall IHC
  Ford
  Ford 9N 2N 8N
  Fordson
  Harry Ferguson
  John Deere Older
  Massey-Harris Ferguson
  Minneapolis Moline
  Oliver Cletrac Cockshutt
  Restoration
  Tractor Pulling
Tractor Attachments Implements 3ph
  Back Hoe
  Field Mowers Brush Cutter
  Grooming Mowers Finish Mo
  Loaders
  Snowblowers / Snow Plows
  Tillers and Ploughs
  Tractor Implements
  Trenchers
  Wood Chippers 3PH
Tractor Maintenance
  Diesel Fuel Lubrication E
  Tractor Engine Repair Reb
  Tractor Tires
Utility ATV
  All Terrain Vehicles
  John Deere Gator
  Mule Utility Vehicles
General Tractor
  Farming Ranching Agricult
  Photo Contest
  Size Tractor Needed
  Tractor Projects
  Tractor Safety
  Welding
Chinese Tractors
  Jinma Farmpro Agracat
  NorTrac Tractors
  Other Chinese Tractors
Cars
  All Brands
  Audi VW
  BMW
  Car Tires and Maintenance
  Chrysler
  Exotic, Sports, Racing
  Ford Cars
  General Motors
  Honda
  Hyundai
  Mercedes
  News
  Nissan
  Subaru
  SUV and Trucks
  Toyota Cars
Trucks Trailers
  Chevy Pickup Trucks
  Dodge Pickup Trucks
  Ford Pickup Trucks
  Toyota Pickup Trucks
  Chevy Pickup Trucks
  Dodge Pickup Trucks
  Ford Pickup Trucks
  Toyota Pickup Trucks
Home Building
  Alternate Electric Energy
  Barns Pole Barns
  Buying Ranch Farm Acreage
  Carpentry
  Contractors
  Electric
  Excavation
  Moldings Finish Trim
  Other Home Building
  Pellet Stoves
  Plumbing
  Wood Stoves
Tools
  Electirc Power Tools
  Gas Power Tools
  Generators
  Shop Tools
  Techniques Howto
Landscape
  Flowers Shrubs Garden
  Golf Course Maintenance
  Irrigation Systems
  Landscape Design
  Landscape Lighting
  Landscape Maintenance
  Lawn, Turf, and Grass
  Vegetable Gardening
Construction
  Caterpillar
  Komatsu
  Wheel Loaders
Current Events Health Happiness
  Current Events
  Dogs and other Pets
  Electronics And Computers
  Food
  Health
  Just For Fun Off Topic
  Movies Music Games
  Personal Finance Investme
  Sports Outdoors
Tractorpoint Site
  Member Photos
  Site Members
  Website Operations Howto


New As Posted | Active Subjects



Click to Post a New Message!

Discussion Boards > Active Subjects > Messages as Posted > Size Tractor Needed Forum

Page [ 1 ] | 2 | 3 | 4 | | Next >>
Reply | Pop Up Window Reply | Add PhotoAdd Photo
 05-21-2002, 10:54 Post: 38871
DRankin



View my Photos

View my Photos  Pics
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: Northern Nevada
TractorPoint Premium Member -- 5 Tractors = Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 5105

10
Filter by User
 Notes on compact tractor traction

Subtitle: How to get a 1500 pound tractor to pull a 2300 pound trailer up a sand dune.

As discussed in an earlier post, I have assembled a dual axle trailer to haul a 225 gallon water tank to the far corners of my land to water trees and to keep as a standby water supply in case of a lightning strike fire (a very high probability in my neck of the woods…or rather, sage brush). The water tank is only 38 by 44 inches so the trailer is pretty short coupled. There is no tongue weight to speak of, because the whole thing sits level when fully loaded with the hitch about a foot off the ground. I figure the loaded trailer weighs about 2300 lbs, and nearly 1900 lbs. of that figure is water.

I knew before I started that it would be too big a load for my 4100, but the 110-gallon tank was too small and I planned to compensate by filling the tank somewhere between 110 and 225 gallons. I was surprised on fully loaded test runs down the steep paved driveway, that I had plenty of braking power, as long as I kept the tractor in 4wd so all four wheels were braking. But I ran into trouble on the back lot where it is steep and sandy. The tractor lost traction and dug in about 50 feet from the top fence line and when I turned to go downhill the weight of the loaded trailer pushed the rear end of the tractor sideways on 90-degree turns. Ok, time to regroup.

So how much can I safely haul? Maybe I should figure out what I have first. It looks like this:

Tractor………………............................……………………….1565
Loader (a guess, Deere does not publish the weight)…... 500
Combo 3 pt. carryall forks/platform/hitch.....…...………....…150
Fluid filled tires (sort of turf types).….......…………………...240
Operator (somewhere between the loader and the tires).. xxx
Total………………………………………………......................………2700 Lbs.

Hmmmm……… remember last month when we got into a history of John Deere tractors? I found some specs on a tractor I drove when I was a kid, the Model 80. It is a 2wd diesel that produced 57 HP and tipped the scales at around 8,200 lbs. That critter could pull anything short of a loaded freight train. Maybe it isn’t about the load on the trailer. Maybe I needed more mass on the tractor.

The quickest and easiest way was to put a 55-gallon drum on the combo hitch and fill it with water, which fits into the fire suppression scheme anyway. That put 500 extra pounds on the rear tires (total gross 3200). I adjusted the tire pressure from 12 to 20 pounds. I still had plenty of braking power. The extra weight got me 30 feet closer to the back fence before the tires started digging holes. Now the rear end was more stable going down hill but the front end was sloshing around a bit.

Again, it wasn’t about tongue weight but rather leverage. With the rear end more firmly planted, it became a pivot point and the front tires were moving. So, maybe a bit more weight, this time on the front end. I filled the FEL bucket with cinderblocks, 12 to be exact. At a bit more than 27 pounds each that added 325 lbs. (total gross tractor weight 3525). Brakes still checked out fine going full speed down the paved driveway. This, by the way, is the same driveway that stalled a fire truck a couple of months ago. They had to restart the engine and find their lowest gear to get to the house.

With a total of eight forward speeds and 20 gross horsepower, the 4100 carried the entire load (5800 lbs.) up the drive in 7th gear. More importantly it easily climbed the soft sand all the way to the back fence and remained quite stable turning downhill in the dirt.

So what does all this mean? It seems that when getting work out of a tractor, especially for pulling type jobs, that weight is more important than horsepower. This was true in 1956 when 8200+ pound machines operated with 57 horse engines, and it is still true today. So if you are running a ground-engaging implement and it isn’t working well, try adding weight, maybe a whole lot of weight, to the tractor. It might surprise you. It surprised me.






Reply to PostReply | Quote Post Reply to PostQuote Reply | Add PhotoAdd Photo




Bookmarks: Digg It | Del.icio.us |
 05-21-2002, 11:20 Post: 38872
DRankin



View my Photos

View my Photos  Pics
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: Northern Nevada
TractorPoint Premium Member -- 5 Tractors = Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 5105

10
Filter by User
 Notes on compact tractor traction

More Math:

The 1956 John Deere Model 80 weighed 8250 pounds (field ready) and produced 57 PTO horsepower. That is one horsepower for each 144 pounds of weight. (8250/57= 144.73).

My 2001, 4100 Gear weighs 2450 (Tractor, FEL, loaded tires and rear combo hitch) and makes 17 PTO horsepower. It works out to the same power to weight ratio. (2450/17=144.12). Pretty weird. Or maybe not.






Reply to PostReply | Quote Post Reply to PostQuote Reply | Add PhotoAdd Photo




Bookmarks: Digg It | Del.icio.us |
 05-21-2002, 11:42 Post: 38875
Art White



View my Photos

View my Photos  Pics
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: Waterville New York
TractorPoint Premium Member -- 5 Tractors = Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 6844

2
Filter by User
 Notes on compact tractor traction

We actually try to get close to 110lbs today useing that formula. It is hard on some tractors as they have to much weight built in to be able to do it. When getting into the higher pounds per horsepower we find it takes to much to get everything moving and really can make a good engine feel doggy and will burn a lot of fuel. On our hills we will go to 120 or 130 but anything more than that and our conversion charts give us a big red lite to let us know that we are to heavy for maximum performance and longevity.






Reply to PostReply | Quote Post Reply to PostQuote Reply | Add PhotoAdd Photo




Bookmarks: Digg It | Del.icio.us |
 05-21-2002, 15:02 Post: 38878
sgr
2002-05-21 00:00:00
Post: 38878
 Notes on compact tractor traction

I think you are comparing Drawbar hp on the 8o to pto hp on the 4100, not the same thing






Reply to PostReply | Quote Post Reply to PostQuote Reply | Add PhotoAdd Photo




Bookmarks: Digg It | Del.icio.us |
 05-21-2002, 16:36 Post: 38880
DRankin



View my Photos

View my Photos  Pics
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: Northern Nevada
TractorPoint Premium Member -- 5 Tractors = Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 5105

10
Filter by User
 Notes on compact tractor traction

My manual has two listings: 20 gross HP- presumably a free standing engine, and 17 PTO HP. The listing I found for the Model 80 says 57 hp at the belt pulley and 47 at the drawbar. I am comparing the HP in both models where the implements are run.






Reply to PostReply | Quote Post Reply to PostQuote Reply | Add PhotoAdd Photo




Bookmarks: Digg It | Del.icio.us |
 05-22-2002, 06:51 Post: 38892
TomG

TP Contributor

Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Upper Ottawa Valley
TractorPoint Premium Member -- 5 Tractors = Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 5406

7
Filter by User
 Notes on compact tractor traction

Interesting ideas. I'm also glad the brakes worked and the tank eventually got where it was going.

A neighbour up the highway tells a story about brakes. His neighbour helped him move a large mobile home with a 2wd utility tractor. They started out down his driveway. The mobile pushed the tractor, brakes set and all, down the drive and across the highway where the tractor started down the ditch and broke the hitch. I don't know if that was the tractor or the mobile hitch. The mobile was blocking both lanes of the highway and it took them about an hour to get it off the road. The highway has much more traffic today than when my neighbour blocked it, but there still were quite a few unhappy people. Anyway, tractors are better at pulling than stopping.

The idea I have is that most people want to know could be called 'pulling power.' Pulling power would be affected by the engine and transmission and also by tires, soil conditions, ground speed, gear etc. I don't know if pulling power and drawbar HP are the same things. I also don't know if either pulling power or drawbar HP are the same things as performance.

The Nebraska Farm Test site at: http://www.ianr.unl.edu/pubs/FarmPower/g579.htm
gets into their tests a bit. I imagine that more detail of the tests is available. Maybe exact definitions for these sorts of terms are provided, but I couldn't find any at the site.

The sense I get from this is that it takes HP to move tractor weight, and that HP is subtracted from pulling power. Adding weight decreases pulling power. However, additional weight on the axles increases traction, which increases pulling power. There probably is an optimal point for weight at which pulling power is max. Of course in practice, when there’s work to be done, you just try this and that to see what works best without worrying much about tests, definitions and optimal points. It's when I'm sitting here that I'm interested in such things.






Reply to PostReply | Quote Post Reply to PostQuote Reply | Add PhotoAdd Photo




Bookmarks: Digg It | Del.icio.us |
 05-22-2002, 08:11 Post: 38901
DRankin



View my Photos

View my Photos  Pics
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: Northern Nevada
TractorPoint Premium Member -- 5 Tractors = Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 5105

10
Filter by User
 Notes on compact tractor traction

Tom, you told that story about the mobile home in another thread. That is the very reason I checked the braking power first.






Reply to PostReply | Quote Post Reply to PostQuote Reply | Add PhotoAdd Photo




Bookmarks: Digg It | Del.icio.us |
 05-22-2002, 08:23 Post: 38902
Peters

TP Contributor

View my Photos

View my Photos  Pics
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Northern AL
TractorPoint Premium Member -- 5 Tractors = Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 3034

6
Filter by User
 Notes on compact tractor traction

Mark;
I think the main problem was low tougue weight. If the tougue weight is low then the balance shifts as you go up hill and the water weight shifts it unloads the tougue and you loose traction. As you go up the hill your pulling power is primarily on the rear tires. If you are effectively reducing the weight at the back then you loose traction.
I have a little pup trailer that I used for collecting fire wood. Loaded it has a similar weight to you water. I initially used it with the 750 JD.
There is a big difference in stopping power between the 4x an the 2x. I got caught a couple of times in 2x as I started down a hill. Again the weight shifts to the front and all the stopping power is at the front.






Reply to PostReply | Quote Post Reply to PostQuote Reply | Add PhotoAdd Photo




Bookmarks: Digg It | Del.icio.us |
 05-22-2002, 10:26 Post: 38903
DRankin



View my Photos

View my Photos  Pics
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: Northern Nevada
TractorPoint Premium Member -- 5 Tractors = Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 5105

10
Filter by User
 Notes on compact tractor traction

I actually started out with a carefully balanced single axle rig, but as you pointed out the weight transfer, especially with fluid, was a big problem. Once it teetered past the point of no return, I was forced to empty the tank to get it back on an even keel. I bet it was able to exert 500 to 800 pounds of upward pressure or actual lift on the rear hitch. And since I am towing off the three point to accommodate extra ballast and a ready supply of water it might be even worse because there is nothing but gravity to hold the load on the three point hitch down and that is enough weight to overpower and lift the ballast. Dual axles with a neutral tongue weight seemed like the only way to go.






Reply to PostReply | Quote Post Reply to PostQuote Reply | Add PhotoAdd Photo




Bookmarks: Digg It | Del.icio.us |
 05-22-2002, 19:49 Post: 38915
Peters

TP Contributor

View my Photos

View my Photos  Pics
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Northern AL
TractorPoint Premium Member -- 5 Tractors = Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 3034

6
Filter by User
 Notes on compact tractor traction

Mark;
I would be inclined to move your tank forward so that you are placing more weight on the tougue. I would put a jack on the tougue and then allow the weight of the water to give you the increased weight on the tractor. All the forest service water trailers were set up with the more than 500 lb tougue weight.
I don't think I would want to tow that much weight off the 3pt hitch. Do you have a 3pt attachment or a straight tow bar?
For reference I purchased 3 pallets of sod, 1500-2000lb each and had them set on my equipment trailer. I moved the trailer up a steep dirt hill with the my small tractor 955 which is the same weight as yours, no ballast in the tires, no weight in the FEL and maybe 500-800 lb tougue weight.






Reply to PostReply | Quote Post Reply to PostQuote Reply | Add PhotoAdd Photo




Bookmarks: Digg It | Del.icio.us |
Reply | Pop Up Window Reply | Add PhotoAdd Photo


Page [ 1 ] | 2 | 3 | 4 | | Next >>

Discussion Boards > Active Subjects > Messages as Posted > Size Tractor Needed Forum

Thread 38871 Filter by Poster:
Art White 2 | Big Eddy 1 | DennisCTB 1 | DRankin 10 | lbrown59 1 | Mike Collinsworth 1 | MRETHICS 1 | Peters 6 | sgr 1 | TomG 7 | Wingnut 1 |

 (advanced search)

Picture of the Day
Coachlarry

John Deere Gator - 1200A Secondary Cap Screw
1200A Secondary Cap Screw


Unanswered Questions

Belarus 825 - needs a new clut
Drain Cock
Need more hydraulic flow for s
HINOMOTO HB 501
Belarus 420A - Problems bleed

Active Subjects

460 Long hyd leak
460 axle
Key will not start engine
6x4 engine rebuild vsHarbor Fr
Things we say and what do they
The Plus and Minus of Ignoring
Looking to buy a New Pickup Tr
Need more hydraulic flow for s


Hot Topics

Tractor Category 1 2 3 Hitch s
Duerr hp 678 Chipper replaceme
Gator 620i gas in engine oil
KUBOTA Tractor Trouble Free Qu
Gator 6x4 Overheating problem
Duerr hp 678 Chipper Manual
Adjusting 7308 Pressure Relief
Long 460 hydraulic problem


Featured Suppliers

Mountain Creek Labradoodles
      MountainCreekLabradoodles.com





New Forums on Gun Sport Shooting and Hunting -- BarrelPoint.com  New Forums on Horses ManePoint.com
Talk Horses at ManePoint
Hunting + Gun Sports at BarrelPoint



Most Viewed

+ How big a tractor to farm 20 acres
+ What is needed to bushhog 6 acres
+ Small Acreage - New Holland TC24D or Kubota BX23
+ Rotary cutter hp
+ tractor hours
+ What size tractor do I need Help
+ JD 790 vs Kubota L2500
+ Best compact landscaping rig
+ Please help 60acres to bushhog
+ What Size Tractor For Harvesting Firewood

Most Discussion

+ Gear or Hydrostatic
+ Recommended tractor size and t
+ What to get JD445 JD4100 or
+ JD 4100 v BX series
+ Please help 60acres to bushh
+ Notes on compact tractor tract
+ Kubota or John Deere
+ Compact 101 How big is too b
+ JD4400 or Boomer TC35D
+ Need help comparing new Compac

Newest Topics

+ Demand for under 100 hp tractors
+ New to farming
+ Buy Tractor to maintain under 2 acres
+ Comparing Two Tractors
+ UTILITY TRACTORS
+ New Holland VS Kubota VS Massey
+ need info
+ help for a novice
+ What is needed to bushhog 6 acres
+ B7500 hitch size question
















Turbochargers for Tractors and Industrial Machines
Cab Glass for Tractors and Industrial Machines

Alternators for Tractors and Industrial Machines
Radiators for Tractors and Industrial Machines

Driveline Components for Tractors and Industrial Machines
Starter Motors for Tractors and Industrial Machines