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Hydro oil frothing out of tank on 3 point b hoe

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locksleyred
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 36 Victoria Australia
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2006-06-08          130624

Having problems with hydro oil frothing in the tank on my back hoe. B'hoe working ok but oil escapes ( froth) from the vent holes in the tank cap. Filter was spotless. Oil was as clean as. Made sure all connections from tank to pump were tight so as not to suck air. Other than that I am at a bit of a loss.

Mike, from downunder.


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hardwood
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 3583 iowa
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2006-06-08          130625

A couple things come to mind. #1 Are you using the fluid recommended for the hoe? The recommended fluid should have an anti foaming agent in it. #2 Could there be water in the fluid? #3 Is something causing the fluid to be hotter than normal? Maybe this will give you some things to check. Best of luck, Frank. ....

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earthwrks
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 3853 Home Office in Flat Rock, Michigan
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2006-06-08          130667

It could be that you're working too hard to the point the bypass relief valve kicks out which sounds like a hissing or squealing noise. That aerates or foams the oil. Even overstressed anti-foaming oils will foam. My New Holland skid steer uses 10W-30 motor oil for the hydraulic system due to its anti-foaming properties. ....

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locksleyred
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 36 Victoria Australia
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2006-06-09          130675

Thanks Frank and Earthwrks, Did all the checking you suggested. Right oil, no water, and never have run it long enough to do anything other than dig a hole. BUT... while doing all the checking I forgot to replace the dipstick when filling oil to correct level. Guess what no oil loss. Replaced the dipstick and oil once again overflowed. Took the filler cap off and worked the hoe noticed the oil level fall and rise in what appears to be, to me, to be a filler tube that goes into the tank far too deep. So when working, oil falls and then rises just that little bit higher in the filler tube each time I move something on the hoe. Eventually the oil overflows. Remove dipstick and its back to normal. Can't leave dipstick out because dirt will enter, I could make a screw in breather to replace the dipstick but that does not tell me why this is happening in the first place. Should filler tubes go 7/8 into the tank? And the cap has a breather anyway!!!! If you have any ideas pleas let me know.
Thanks mate(s) for the suggestions so far.

Mike ( Go Aussie Go, World Cup Soccer) ....

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earthwrks
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 3853 Home Office in Flat Rock, Michigan
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2006-06-09          130687

lock: The depth of the filler tube doesn't matter so long as it isn't plugged or restricted at the bottom--oil, like water seeks it's own height. Based on what you said I feel it is a venting issue. I'd check that the filler cap vent isn't clogged with dust and wetted with oil. Also---and this is a biggie: depending on the position at-rest of all hydraulics and accessories the level in the tank can vary vastly. This is due to the volume in the cylinders which depends on which side of the piston the oil is at the time of checking the oil level. Some cylinders have large rods like on a loader; these types have much more volume of oil behind the piston versus the rod side which may be very little. That missing oil has to go somewhere---the tank. Conversely, check the oil with the cylinder retracted, lift the loader and oil gets pumped into the cylinder dropping the level. You have to find a happy medium when checking the level--so you may to raise and lower, crowd/uncrowd the dipper stick and open/close the bucket at different postions to get an idea of whre "full" actually is. ....

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locksleyred
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 36 Victoria Australia
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2006-06-10          130715

Thanks Earthwrks, Take your point on "where full actually is" did what you suggested and readjusted to get that happy medium. I agree it is a venting problem. It would appear to me that 'they' forgot to put one in. It may be just a case of remove the dipstick and replace with a vent. Filler cap was OK. Actually took it off altogether and the oil still overflowed. As everytime I did an action on the hoe the level in the filler tube crept up just that little bit each time to the point of overflow.
One question though, ' Why does the filler tube go into the tank, why not like a petrol tank where it is welded just to the outside skin of the tank'? There must be some reason behind this practise. In my case having the filler tube not protrude into the tank would have solved the problem as the whole tank would have been vented by the filler cap and the dipstick would be be permanently in place.
These things are sent to try us, but they are fun.
Thanks Mate

Mike ....

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earthwrks
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 3853 Home Office in Flat Rock, Michigan
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2006-06-10          130716

Depending on who made the tank they have taken parts from some other mfg. and tried tomake them work, or perhaps the tanwas made by someone for a different purpose or application. Generally the filler tube goes down to hold a strainer, but not always; my backhoe is like the "petrol tank" or "gas can", as we would say. The other reason I didn't think of before was---of course--gravity! You're on the bottom of the world so it's gonna pour out! ....

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locksleyred
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 36 Victoria Australia
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2006-06-12          130752

HA HA good one Earthwrks. But who said North was top? Depends on your perspective. I'm from Victoria, and apart from Tasmania, we are at the top of Australia. The globe of the world in my house has the South Pole at the top. Makes for reading the names of places difficult though!!!!!
ANyway back to the Backhoe. Personally I think they stuffed up here. Works well without the dipstick in place because it can vent. Will replace D'stick with a vent pipe etc and change when I need to measure oil. Thanks for your time and ideas for without these given freely we wouldn't get anywhere. Love reading all the posts and who knows some day I might be able to help someone.

Thanks Mate

Mike ....

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kthompson
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 5275 South Carolina
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2006-06-12          130754

lock,

A few thoughts if I might, the best I know some parts of Australia get rather hot (even warmer than our 97 yesterday), it could be you don't have the proper oil for the tempature or your cooling system on the hyd oil is not sufficient. Could you have a pressure setting that is too high or running at higher rpm than is needed over heating the oil.

My last thought, contact the mfg of that unit and ask them on the tube in the tank and their suggestion.

Have Good Day and God Bless
....

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locksleyred
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 36 Victoria Australia
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2006-06-15          130883

Thanks KT
Wondered about the temperatures in Summer as I cannot see any real oil cooling device. Temp here at the moment is about 50 to 60 degrees as it is Winter( -5 in the mornings though). Run the revs at about 1000 to 1200. Even so the backhoe is jerky in nature and not real smooth, but I'll post that in a new listing.

The back hoe is a Chinese one suited to the JM354 and it is a 3 point linkage attachment. So contacting the manufacturer would be like waiting and watching grass growing!

I just think it is a problem of venting.

Ok thanks mate.

Mike ....

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kthompson
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2006-06-15          130886

Lock,

Does back hoe has it's own hyd system running off of the tractor's pto? If it does my experience with such as system on mower finally convinced me the oil level is check when it is fully HOT.

Was at a local dealership Tuesday to hear a customer tell his piece of equipment was pusing oil out to which the service person said the oil level is high.


I can only ask this question as I don't know, could the jerky motion be caused by pressure setting that is also causing overheating? ....

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greg_g
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 1816 Western Kentucky
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2006-06-15          130889

This jerky motion is reported VERY often on the various Chinese tractor forums. Your're likely just experiencing the same issue as everyone else, an issue which is almost always tracked back to the controller. The three most common options reported are;
1. live with it
2. learn to feather the controller
3. replace the controller with a more user-friendly after-market model.

The crud that is originally poured in the hydraulic system can aggravate the issue as well. If you haven't already, I'd drain the OE fluid and flush the system with kerosene. Refill with a non-foaming hydraulic fluid suitable to your ambient operating temperatures.

//greg// ....

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locksleyred
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 36 Victoria Australia
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2006-06-15          130915

Hi KT,
Yes the B'hoe has its own system. Actually the oil at the moment is not getting hot at all, but it is Winter and 10 degrees C.
Have done as suggested and found the average level of oil after working the B'hoe through various movements.
I cannot find any valves to set, I was actually looking to tone it down if I could find one. I'm inclined to agree with Greg in that that's how it is unless I change it for an after market control unit. Although I did speak to a farmer last night who said that you can add valves to regulate the flow of oil and not lose power.
But this could cause overheating, I just don't know.
Thanks Mate
Mike ....

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locksleyred
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 36 Victoria Australia
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2006-06-15          130916

Hi Greg,
Did as you suggested when I first got the tractor removed all oil. The frothing is definately a venting problem. Worked the Hoe yesterday for 2 hours with the dipstick out but opening covered with oily rag and no oil escaped. Put it back in the shed but it got the better of me, I put the dipstick back in and away we went again oil coming out. So its a venting problem between the main chamber and the filler tube. The controllers are very touchy, no matter how hard I try to be careful its very rough. I find that if I use 2 controllers at the same time I get a smoother motion.
Mmm live with it! .. I don't think I can, I will look to either getting an attachment to control oil flow or look to aftermarket unit as you say.
In your experience can you suggest a brand name so that I could look for that here? re after market unit.
Thanks for your time mate.
regards

Mike ....

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greg_g
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 1816 Western Kentucky
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2006-06-15          130918

Click on my name above Mike, and contact me via email. If the address isn't visible, send me a private message and we'll coordinate offline.

//greg// ....

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locksleyred
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 36 Victoria Australia
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2006-06-18          130997

Thanks Greg.
I parked the tractor out in the sun yesterday, guess what? Yes the oil in the tank started to overflow through the filler tube. It was hot enough to heat the air in the main tank which pushed the oil out of the filler tube. Took the dip stick out, haven't been able to get an after market breather yet, and the oil went down. Also the oil was barely warm. Apart from putting in a breather I could by way of a sharp long piece of hardened steel simply puncture the filler tube close to the top of the tank which I guess would serve the same purpose.
So the case of the overflowing oil could be solved .... !!??

Thanks mate

Mike ....

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greg_g
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Posts: 1816 Western Kentucky
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2006-06-18          131000

"Solved" is in the eye of the beholder Mike. "Worked around" maybe, but if it were mine I wouldn't consider it solved. If it's filled to the correct level on the dipstick with non-foaming ISO-100 hydraulic fluid (not ISO-100 machine oil), and the flow is in fact in the right direction - it's still an issue I'd be concerned about. Is it possible you've got the wrong dipstick, and that the tank is grossly overfilled?

You're now enjoying some of the downside of self-importing; no dealer support. And honestly, I've myself haven't run across this particular problem yet to be able to do much more than throw guesses your way.

//greg// ....

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locksleyred
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 36 Victoria Australia
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2006-06-19          131015

Hi Greg,
Yes I thought about the dipstick being the right one, and whether the oil was overfull but how does one know? And I take your point about self importing and no dealer support. The correct fluid has been used after I drained and flushed the tank etc. The oil is also going the right way.

Although there are some Jinmas around here, there are no backhoes so no help here. That's why forums like this are good because people with a common interest can offer help, advice or guesses as you put it. Sometimes one can be blinkered, can't see the forrest for the trees so to speak. It just needs someone looking in from the outside to offer their opinion and that's what makes us look and or re evaluate the situation, and more often or not find a solution.
I'll continue to monitor the situation and hope to get a reply from the manufacturer as to why they think it is happening. The moment I do I'll post their answer.

Thanks once again Greg and a guess is always 100% better than nothing.
Regards

Mike ....

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