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 | Lazy JZ
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2002-03-12 36278
I'm buying a New Holland TC 30, 9x3 trans, 4WD, 7308 FEL with HD 60" bucket. The dealer is installing liquid ballast in the rear (R4) tires using a blend of water and methanol. I don't know if these tires are tubeless. Here in New Mexico we do indeed need the freeze protection. Is this mixture corrosive to the rims if the tires are tubeless. And if so, can I add some automotive antifreeze as a rust inhibitor? Are the methanol and antifreeze compatible to mix? Any thoughts, experience, and advice would be appreciated.
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| TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley 
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2002-03-13 36299
If it freezes there, something other than water is needed. A couple of things I've heard suggest that maybe alternatives other than methanol might be better. I've heard that some tire shops won't work on tires that are methanol filled. There is the possibility of an explosive, or at least flammable, air mixture inside the tire.
Dealers usually don't do their own tire work. It might be a good idea to identify the shop that does tire work in your area and ensure that they'd be happy with what ever is used--including any sealant products. Most areas also are served by a mobile repair service, which is also good to identify. Repairs to loaded tires can be done with the wheel still on the tractor, which is a lot easier than trying to wrestle with a loaded tire. There also are disposal problems with methanol as well as most tire fill.
However, the above problems may be overstated. People do use methanol for tire fill, and a dealer should be expected to make responsible recommendations. It is good to know about potential problems though.
....
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| Paul Fox
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2002-03-14 36322
It's not generally considered to be a good idea to use automotive antifreeze, due to it's toxicity. If you have a leak, you have a problem.
RV-type antifreeze has been mentioned quite often, but I have no direct experience with it. ....
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| TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley
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2002-03-14 36324
RV anti-freeze probably is what I'd use. It is pricey though and you still can't just run it out on the ground. Beet pulp might be an alternative. I forget the brand name Bird mentioned (rim guard or something like that. I know nothing about it other than it sounds like a curious idea, and it isn't supposed to corrode wheels like CACL. CACL, of course, is the cheapest, heaviest and most traditional. It also is the most corrosive and has the greatest disposal problems.
I'll probably just stay with my unloaded turfs because the traction problems are manageable as long as I'm not in a rush. Yesterday I had to cut some ice buildup off our gravel drive to cure some drainage problems into the house. I used a 6' box scraper with the scarifiers fully up. The hydraulic top-link fully retracted, the scarifiers had just enough bite to cut ice but without grooving the gravel. However the scraper blade wouldn't pickup much of the ice and slush. I made repeated passes cutting with the scraper and picking up ice from previous passes with the loader in float.
I was surprised there was enough traction to make it work. I could have gotten it done sooner with more traction, and loaded tires would have given me that (the scraper doesn't provide rear ballast when it's on the ground). However, the whole thing worked well enough so I think I'll avoid loading the tires and maybe having to deal with all the associated problems.
....
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 | BillMullens
Join Date: Jun 2000 Posts: 649 Central West Virginia 
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2002-03-14 36327
Wheel weights are always a possibility.
Bill ....
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| Bob in PA
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2002-03-14 36350
Windshield washer fluid is commonly being used in this area. A 55 gallon drum of concentrate is about $140 (if my memory serves me right). It is mixed with 2 parts water to yield approx. 165 gallons (max). That comes in under $1/gallon, as opposed to $3 or $4 for a gallon of RV antifreeze. The freeze point is about -18 deg. F, and can be lowered by mixing it a bit stronger. It is not corrosive and eliminates the need for a tube. Not sure how toxic it would be, but it can't be as bad as the Calcium solution. It is a bit lighter than CaCl, but 75 gallons in each rear tire on my 40D adds quite a bit of weight. ....
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| TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley
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2002-03-15 36354
I've thought about wheel weights. They seem like a good idea since they can be removed a lot easier than pumping out loaded tires. At least for my Ford, weights also are deadly expensive and for not a whole lot of weight.
I remember seeing a picture from somebody who adapted a weight lifting set to his wheels. I can't remember exactly how. I also recall a comment from somebody who filled old brake drums with lead. I imagine that getting appreciable weight that is removable as well as securely mounted and reasonable well balanced will take some figuring.
Removable weight is desirable. There's still almost 2' of snow, but thaw is starting. After the snow is gone, I won't be able to take the tractor across lawns for awhile without making a mess--even without loaded tires.
....
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| BillMullens
Join Date: Jun 2000 Posts: 649 Central West Virginia
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2002-03-15 36361
Bob, I believe that windshield washer fluid is diluted methanol. That could be the solution the the dealer is talking about. Concerns of flammability remain. And if you have a flammable substance in a confined space...
I hadn't heard that CaCl was toxic in any way. It is used commonly as road salt. The locals I've talked to about it say that they've drained gallons of it in their fields following the inevitable leak. I thought that was one of the reasons it was used for tire ballast; i.e. it isn't an environmental hazard. I could be wrong!
Tom, I made some wheel weights for my NH TC29. I used the idea from a web page I saw (long forgotten) that somebody had made some for their Kubota. His uses a 1/2" steel backing plate that is bolted to the wheel, then gym weights can be added via a rod welded to the steel plate. I bolted one 50-lb. weight to my wheel, and secured a 1" rod to it; now I can have up to 150 lbs per wheel. I'm friends with a local gym owner and he gave me 4-50 lb weights that he didn't use, so my project was free. I agree that the factory weights are terribly expensive; same with the front suitcase weights.
Bill ....
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 | DRankin
Join Date: Jan 2000 Posts: 5116 Northern Nevada
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2002-03-15 36370
I am not a chemist, but I have had the same impression as Bill. CaCL is pretty safe for our soils and environment. While I have never heard of soils needing or being depleted in sodium, I have heard that adding Calcium (as in bone meal) and its neighbor on the periodic table, Magnesium, can enrich the soil under certain circumstances. Calcium and Magnesium carbonates are the 'hard' elements in hard water and are therefore quite abundant in the soils into which we drill our water wells. Maybe we can hear from someone with more training. My chemistry experience is limited to the creation of extracoporeal fluids used in hemodialysis and pure water systems (reverse osmosis, de-ionization and ion exchange). ....
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 | Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999 Posts: 7249 Toronto Area, Ontario, Canada
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2002-03-15 36375
As a true proponent of the theory that there is no such thing as absolutely useless information, this thread set me off on a mission, a phone call to a local company that manufactures windshield washer fluid rendered me a wealth of data. First, yes Methanol is used in the mixture, to lower the freeze point of the mostly water mix, emphasis on mostly. The blend is about 14:1, i.e. 14 gallons of water plus 1 gallon of Methyl Hydrate equals 15 gallons of windshield washer fluid. At these rates, and given the fact that any vapour is also going to be mostly water vapour, the manufacturer states that it is absolutely impossible to reach the point of flamable vapours, it would rain inside the tire long before enough vapour built up to reach flamable levels. In fact they said that they do not even need Haz. Mat. placards on full tractor trailer loads of the stuff. So we're paying $2 / gallon for what?????? Happy St. Paddy's Day & Best of luck. ....
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| Stan
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 87
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2002-03-15 36382
Murf -
Thanks !!!! Now I don't have to worry about making my wife mow the yard all summer - my tires are safe !!!!
Actually, I've been away from the chemistry for a long time, but was pretty sure there wasn't any danger, but didn't want to go out on a limb that might get sawed off later.
The only safety tip left on my end - odd numbered carbon alchols are generally unsafe (like methanol), and even numbered ones are OK (like ethanol). So, nobody drink the windshield washer fluid out of their tires !!!! ....
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| TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley
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2002-03-16 36393
It helps to have a wiring diagram. I did cure some gauge problems on my Ford by finding dirty fuse holder terminals. I missed the problem at first because I only tested for battery voltage on one side of the fuse holders.
If all lights are out, I'd suspect a circuit rather than a bulb problem. It would be good to check for battery voltage and ground continuity. That might be a little tricky without a wiring diagram. With a diagram, wire colour codes and multi-connector pin locations for hot leads to the gauges can be identified. A VOM can test for battery voltage to the gauges by disconnecting a plug and turning on switches. Grounds can be tested by testing for continuity on corresponding pin on the other side of the connector, through a gauge to the tractor frame. A ground continuity test done in this way also would indicate a bad bulb. I'm making an assumption that there is a multi-pin connector between the switch and gauge.
I guess I’ll add that the affinity of methanol for water is extreme. People who apply some types of tape player head cleaner with swabs in humid conditions end up putting significant amounts of water on their tape heads, especially if the cleaner is left uncapped.
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| Bob in PA
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2002-03-16 36410
Well, there's a lesson in using the wrong word inadvertently! What I should have said is that WWF (hope no one thinks I mean World Wrestling Federation!) can't be as CAUSTIC as the CACl solution. I was thinking of the effects of a heavy concentration on the vegetation where it might leak out.
I must confess to a chuckle over Stan's 'blast shield for his seat' comment. I could see value in one of those in both directions....
As far as the stuff being volatile/explosive, I would think that by now, we would have had some indication of this, given the number of cars on the road with tanks full of it under the hood. Heaven knows that someone in the Federal Government would have been all over that.
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| TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley
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2002-03-17 36420
I don't have a clue about how my gauge light comment came to be here as well another thread. Undoubtedly something I did. What should have been here is a comment giving my thanks to Murf as well.
Good to have the flammability thing put to rest. It makes a lot of sense, given the affinity of methanol for water. I think methanol likes water much better than air, so with enough water, there shouldn't be much methanol in the air. I recall that the affinity is so great that people who apply some types of tape head cleaners with swabs on humid days end up putting water on the tape heads. It’s especially true if the container is left open for awhile. This is an issue for multi-track recorders used in studios but probably not for average home cassette players.
On the other hand, I have definitely heard that some tire shops won't work on methanol filled tires. Practices may vary in different places. The reason may have to do more to do with a shop not wanting to deal with handling and deposal regulations than any flammability problem. It might be a good thing for people to identify a tire shop in their area, find out if any tire product gives them problems and also determine if they have a mobile repair service.
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| John Mc
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 98 Vermont
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2002-03-17 36421
Some comments on tire fills:
Calcium Chloride WILL kill vegetation when it leaks out in any quantity, and will do so for an extended period of time. (This is also why they do not use road salt on roads in some environmentally sensitive areas.) It is also highly corrosive, which is why you MUST keep the tire filled enough to cover the rims (keeps the air away from the rim, retarding corrosion).
Our local tire shop here (and the one tractor dealer I know of who fills his own tires) will NOT use windshield washer fluid or methanol mixes in their tires. Their insurance company will not cover them if they do use this stuff, due to explosive hazard when working on the tire. Whether insurance Co. is correct or not, I don't know. The mix is probably not a problem under the hood in a car's washer fluid reservior, since it is not sealed... the vapor can escape from the tank before it gets concentrated.
The beet juice alternative is Rim Guard. It is completely non-toxic (in fact, it has an "Animal Food Grade" certification). It is non-corrosive, in fact it helps prevent corrosion. (Since it is non-corrosive, you have the option of partially filled tires, if you don't want the full weight). Rim Guard weighs about 11 lb/gallon. I was told this is HEAVIER than Calcium Chloride solutions, but since I can't find the weight for CaCl solutions right now I can't verify this. Contact info for Rim Guard: Glen Daly (inventor/patent-holder) Rim Guard, Inc., P.O. Box 4012, East Lansing, MI 48826. Phone: 517-351-6470.
John Mc
(wishing I'd heard of Rim Guard before I had my tires filled w/CaCl) ....
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| TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley
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2002-03-18 36455
John: I saved the Rim Guard contact. Thanks. I'll check it out if I decide to load my tires. I imagine there is a point at which it freezes and such info would be available from the company. It can get very cold here so specs may be important.
I'm happy that somebody else is aware of the methanol fill/tire shop story. I believe I first heard it from my truck mechanic. Fortunately I've not had occasion to need an ag tire shop. I did put a tubeless plug in a front tire though. I did use some box store emergency sealer/inflator stuff before installing the plug with the tire still on the rim. I haven't removed the tire since; so I don't know if the sealant would cause a tire shop difficulty. The instructions say only to advise a shop that the product was used. Anyway, the risk of not being able to get the tire worked on is not very threatening. It's about time for new tires I think.
....
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| Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999 Posts: 7249 Toronto Area, Ontario, Canada
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2002-03-18 36464
As much as I hate to contradict anyone... I find it hard to beleive that Rim Guard at 11lb/gallon is heavier than CaCl/H2O mixture, especially considering water alone weighs about 10lb/gallon..... As for the weight of the CaCl/water blend, the weight per gallon depends on the ratio of CaCl to water, the more CaCl there is the heavier it gets per gallon. As for the explosion hazard issue, my question is even if it WAS explosive, what is inside your tire that could ignite it??? Also, as with any other liquid ballast mixture it must be pumped out before you can break the tire down for dismounting. And as far as rim corrosion goes I'm a little puzzled here, I have never seen a liquid filled tire that DIDN'T have a tube in it, so how exactly would the rim corrode other than if some liquid escaped after a puncture? ....
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| Bird Senter
Join Date: Jun 1999 Posts: 962 
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2002-03-18 36467
Murf, instead of 10# per gallon, I thought pure water was just over 8# per gallon (maybe 8.345264?). Of course you're right about calcium fill being different weights depending on the concentration. And I've never personally known a tire shop that objected to working on a tire with alcohol. I HAVE known of some that don't want to work on car tires in which fix-a-flat with LPG propellant was used. And while I agree that USUALLY liquid filled tires have a tube, there are some folks using liquid in tubeless tractor tires. Obviously calcium is used in the north country, but I don't know where it could even be obtained down here in the south, nor do I know anyone who would even consider using it. I do have a neighbor who bought a used tractor that came from Minnesota and he didn't know it had calcium in the tires until he punctured one of them across the road from me and quickly pulled it up in front of my shop building (killed the grass for two years where it leaked out), and he eventually had to buy new wheels after the original ones rusted out, but the tractor was about 25 years old, so we don't know how long calcium had been in the tires, nor how many leaks there had been. ....
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| Bob in PA
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2002-03-18 36477
Bird and Murf, glad to see you "weigh in" on this one. (sorry) I have a couple of things I want to hit here. First, as far as the 'explosion hazard': as previously mentioned, the alcohol has an extremely high affinity for water. Given this, it would seem to me that any motion, i.e. the turning of the tire as the tractor is driven, would result in a constant re-mixing of any alcohol vapors back into the water. The 14:1 ratio should ensure that there is enough free water for it to mix with. Second, as Murf stated, you would have to pump out any liquid before working on the tire. It would seem to me that as air replaced the liquid, any remaining 'fumes' would be greatly diluted, given that the liquid would have filled at least 70% or 80% of the available space inside the tire to start with. If there was a small percentage of alcohol vapors present, it would have been a small portion of a small portion of the inside volume of the tire. Third, according to the manufacturer, you can't make the stuff go boom.
Murf, your comment on liquid filled tires with no tubes made me double check with my dealer just to be sure. I have a NH 40D with Titan 17.5-24 R-4's on the rear. They are filled and there is no tube in them. Apparently the newer tubeless tires allow this. The valves are bigger than normal, and have a base with what looks like a flat washer with a rubber gasket, secured by a nut. They are definitely not a valve from a tube sticking through the wheel. Each tire took 75 gallons, which adds about 600 or so pounds per wheel. $140.00/1200 pounds comes to about 11.7 cents a pound. That has to be a lot less than wheel weights, the trade off being that it is not readily removable. But given that the tire track is 17" wide, it distributes the weight very nicely, and has not been a problem for me.
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| TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley
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2002-03-19 36485
Well gee Murf: One other person and myself wrote specifically to thank you for laying the flammability issue to rest. I'm not sure anybody is talking fires and explosions here.
The issue in my mind was if a tire repair shop might not work on a methanol filled tire. One person and myself have heard fairly specific cases while Bird hasn't heard of any problem. I think the issue here is regulation and insurance or just unwillingness to deal with disposal rather than flammability. I'm inclined to accept Bird's notion because use of WWF seems to be pretty common. Dang, I suppose I'll have to call up the one ag tire shop in my area and ask. However, it might be worth thinking about what exactly does a shop do if they get stuck with several hundred gallons of WWF. I don't know if waste oil companies would be happy. I'm sure that a shop with a waste oil furnace wouldn't be happy.
Don't know, but I wouldn't be entirely dismissive of the flammability issue. A flammable fluid or vapour could be created from WWF through distillation and maybe other processes. I guess it's conceivable that an accidental set of conditions could produce such a process. However, that seems an extremely small probability and the sort of thing failure-rate or risk management statisticians might consider. Since I am a statistician, I’m prone to such subjects and may be guilty of pursuing subjects that aren’t very relevant to tractor owners from time to time.
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| Bob in PA
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2002-03-19 36497
Tom, I'd be inclined to think that if a tire was being repaired or replaced, the shop would pump the WWF in to a 55 gallon drum or two, and then re-use it in the new/repaired tire. I'd be mad at them if they dumped it and then charged me to replace it with new stuff. ....
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| Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999 Posts: 7249 Toronto Area, Ontario, Canada
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2002-03-19 36499
Bob, Tom, thanks for the endorsement. Bob I'm with you, if a tire shop pumped & then dumped the WWF and billed me for new product I'd blow up, never mind the mixture itself. As for the 'used' stuff, I can't believe that they couldn't make use of it, we go through it at incredible rates all winter here. As for storage, I don't see that the flamability is a problem, I would think that it is more likely they just don't have the facilities to handle anything but a CaCl/water mixture. As for the environmental issue, I would rather have a 14:1 water/alcohol blend on the ground (or in contact with my rims) than a CaCl/water blend in any ratio. ....
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| dan t
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2002-03-19 36509
Just some thoughts. Having had several CaCl loaded tires "fixed:" Local large tire company only one that repairs loaded tires. They never ask what they're loaded with. They pump out into a 55 gal. drum, make the repair, and pump the same fluid back in, plus whatever is needed to compensate for what was lost. You pay TWICE-for the pumping out AND the pumping in--it's cheaper by almost half if you bring the tire in empty! This place uses regular engine antifreeze rather than CaCl if they need to add anything. Farmer down the road modified an old refrigerator pump and does his own tires. Doesn't take much "pull" to empty/fill a tire. As for the CaCl it is chemically a "salt" and is sometimes used as food additive. "Salt" explains corrosiveness, plant kill, and anti-freeze effect. As to WWF--concentration too low for flammability worries--EXCEPT TECHNICALLY it might be argued that during the pump-out process there is a negative pressure created in the tire (think of the vacuum created when sucking the liquid out of a plastic 2 liter bottle). Since alcohols have a higher vapor pressure than water it is technically possible to evaporate the alcohol at a rapid rate. (Similar to the problem of using auto gas in a light aircraft, causing vapor lock at high altitudes due to having a higher vapor pressure.) Of course, its the vapors that are always the danger, not the liguid. In any case, WWF gaining popularity around here, particularly in lawn/garden apps. ....
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| TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley
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2002-03-20 36518
I did call the ag tire repair shop yesterday. I probably talked to a counter guy, and he was busy. He did say there was no problem working on a WWF loaded tire. 'We just pump it out and then pump it back in.' It was also a bit surprising that he said he'd never heard of anybody using WWF. I hope he heard me correctly. He did hedge a lot when asked about disposal, so maybe the answer is 'no.' But, as I said he was a counter guy and busy. Anyway, the answer in my area seems to be that WWF loaded tires can be worked on even if nobody has heard of them. Whether you could leave used WWF at the shop isn't completely clear. So, this perhaps is another part of the story that can be put to rest.
Dan's comment about partial pressures of methanol under vacuums is my sort of subject. Interesting, and I wonder if it's enough to create a restriction by some insurance underwriter. They sometimes seem to restrict some really improbable things.
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| BillMullens
Join Date: Jun 2000 Posts: 649 Central West Virginia
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2002-03-20 36528
Dan, those are the kind of things that concern me. Perhaps a dilute solution of methanol would never become explosive, but that is chemically over my head. What makes me think of it is I've read some horrifying stories about the early days of scuba diving in which they experimented with hydrogen mixtures. It turned out that at certain partial pressures hydrogen-oxygen mixtures spontaneously explode. The bad combination happened in the lungs of experimental divers.
Bill ....
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 | Peters
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 3034 Northern AL
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2002-03-20 36536
I looked at this post a while ago and thought it was answered. I am a bit reluctant to enter into this as with another post there is a lot of misinformation and like an onion skin we don't know how may layers there are.
Info.
The mass of 1 gallon US of fresh water is 8.3 lbs. One gallon IMP is 10.4 lb. Which gallon are you referring to? Technically both answers were correct and incorrect. One is 120 fluid oz. the other is 160. One was a world wide standard the other was used only in one country. Now the litre is.
As the the old joke goes the world is on the metric system except two great powers!! The US and Brunei.
One gallon of sea water US is 8.9 lb. I am not sure how much a US gallon of saturated NaCl is. Maybe the 11 lb answer is close.
Salt will dissolve into water until the saturation point. The volume will not increase until the molecures of salt are hydrated. Ie the molecules of salt fill the molecular voids between the water molecules until a certain point and then expand the water. Therefore the increase in density is greater than just the volume of the higher density salt and water added. This point comes before the saturation point, addtional salt will increase the volume to the saturation point. Any salt like CaCl will have these physical constants they depend on the salt added.
CaCl is normally supersaturated in Ag tires. Concentrated salts of any type will kill plants until it is diluted from the soil. Jerusalem and other area were seeded with salt after the destruction of the city by the Romans to prevent reoccupation.
Sea salt is more than just NaCl (sodium cloride).
The corrosive nature of all salts is known. The organo salts are less, but at present more expensives.
I like the idea of the beet juice. I hope that means sugar beet. The problem with a regular beet is the staining. I can imagine the colour of the tire man at the AG shop.
Sugar could also be used. I assume the active ingredient in the beet juice would be the sugar although other chemicals could contribute, such as salts. I don't know how far the freezing point will be lowered. I think it will depend on where you live.
How about maple sap?
Methanol will evaporate with the water and if the concentration of the water is high there is no real danger of explosion. The danger would be if the person decided to fill the tires with a high concentration of methanol. Methanol is toxic and caused blindness if consumed. The addtion of methanol will decrease the weight per gallon from the 8.3 of water.
Ethanol on the other hand azeotropes with water at 95/5 and therefore the vapors are flamible. Thus you can light the boiling wine, but the wine is not flamible.
Methanol and Ethanol are corrosive. Anyone that has raced with methanol can acknowledge the work to keep the methanol from corroding the steel, brass etc.
Isopropanol - rubbing alcohol is more expensive but less famible and corrosive although it azeotropes at 76% with water. It is also toxic if consumed.
Car antifreeze (ethylene glycol) is toxic to pets and will slowing decompose in the environment. It will not evaporate as quickly as the other alcohols mentioned. It azeotropes with water and has a maximum effectiveness at ~ 50 % mixture with water. Other elements are added to the antifreeze to prevent corrosion. Propylene glycol and ethylene glycol will increase the mass very slightly.
The environmental friendly antifreeze is propylene glycol.
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| dan t
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2002-03-20 36551
I suppose we are beating a dead horse, but just to clarify. When water and methanol are mixed they are not chemically changed--only diluted, so the water and methanol molecules maintain their unique chemical structure. Since water boils at 212 F and methanol boils at 149 F (at sea level on a standard day) it is possible to fractionate them back to their original identities, much the same way that oil "crackers" separate crude oil into all the various distillates. Add to this the fact that the boiling point af any liquid (the temp at which it's state changes from liquid to gas) is directly related to the atmospheric pressure. For example, water would boil at the top of Mt. Everest (29,000+ ft.) at 162 F. So if the pressure in the tire became sufficiently lower than atmospheric (negative), the methanol could begin to boil at "room temperature," that is the methanol's vapor pressure would equal the atmospheric pressure inside the tire. The water would still have quite a few degrees to go before it would boil, so the concentration of volatile vapors relative to non-volatile (water) vapor would increase. That is, the partial pressure of the methanol gas would increase while the partial pressure of the water would decrease. (Add a method to condense the vapors and you complete the "petroleum cracker" mentioned above.)
HOWEVER, having said all that, I repeat that I believe that we're talking THEORETICALLY here. That is, you'd probably need some kind of "Tim the Toolman Taylor" with a pump scavenged from some hydroelectric dam using it in Denver to actually put the theory to work!
With regard to spilling some CaCl on the ground--other than the immediate area under the spill I don't see any environmental "hazard." Remember, 5/8 of the surface of this planet is covered with salt water! (Admittedly 20X more NaCl than CaCl in sea water.)
Finally, we might be fixating on a red herring here anyway. Methanol is highly toxic and can be absorbed through vapors and directly through the skin. This may be more of a long-term-exposure health issue (OSHA) rather than a "KA-BOOM" problem.
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| John Mc
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 98 Vermont
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2002-03-20 36557
Perhaps this "explosion risk" the tire shop mentioned was just their assumption of why the insurance company had a fit. Maybe the real concern was the toxicity of methanol and the fact that it can be absorbed through the skin?
For whoever asked: Rim Guard is made from sugar beets (mostly) and still flows at -40 F. There are a few other additives to improve various properties (including corrosion resistance). ....
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| TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley
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2002-03-21 36563
Thanks guys. My sort of subject and I'm reading things I never knew or haven't thought about in years. Yes it is theoretical, and I don't think my tires will go boon no matter what fill is in them. At least for me this discussion has reduced the amount of misinformation I held and I think that's good. However, with great effort on my part, I'm resisting the urge to pursue some of the comments. I’m interested, I suppose but too much theory in life can be a costly as too much misinformation.
I think Rim Guard uses beet pulp, which is a byproduct from sugar production. It also is a principal ingredient in some brands of dry dog food. So, maybe a tire shop guy could get brand new fashion coloured coveralls and a free lunch at the same time. I somehow doubt that the product actually is edible though. I also think sugar beets are more brown than red so maybe the fashion colour wouldn’t be that great. . I do wish I had asked the counter guy about working on beet pulp filled tires. Might have been a curious reaction. Never the less, I'll look into Rim Guard if I ever get serious about loading my tires. The temperature does hit –40F here rarely so it’s good to know that the product likely is appropriate for this climate.
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| Peters
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 3034 Northern AL
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2002-03-21 36576
Dan;
Alcohol is not Alcohol.
Methanol is infinately soluble in water. When you distill you will enrich slighly inthe methanol content but water vapor will always be present. To distill to pure methanol you need multiple distillations or many distillation plates. To be explosive of flamible you need to be rich in methanol initially.
Ethanol on the other hand has an azeotrope at 95/5. Ie this mixture has the lowest boiling point and the vapor will be near this concentration.
How do you have a negative pressure in a tire? How does one get a negative pressure in a ballon?
I could not find any information on the beet extract on the web. I have never been near sugar beets in my life other than seeing them in a field as I drove down the road at 60 mph. What you are saying is that the soluble cellulose is the active ingredient not the sugar. I wondered about this but again I was not sure as to how much of a freezing point depression you would obtain. You will get a fairly hard tire near minus 40 then again the rubber losses a lot of elasticity at minus 40.
I would assume the soluble fiber sold at the drug store would be similar, if not the same material. With enough refinement I am sure it is fairly colourless. Maybe we can get someone to fill a ballon and place it in the freezer. That seems like a good experiment for one of the anal retentive types. ....
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| Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999 Posts: 7249 Toronto Area, Ontario, Canada
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2002-03-21 36583
This is an interesting if not rather lengthy thread to say the least, so to add one more twist.... I came across a fellow who had a rather unique, safe & VERY inexpensive ballast in his tires. He had broken the bead on one side of each tire and poured in a calculated amount of silica sand (commonly used for sandblasting, etc.) then inflated & re-installed the four tires. He claimed that the sand did not have to be removed for repairing a tire, if you tipped the tire it would run to the bottom, away from the work area which was then merely dusty. Absolutely no fear of rusting, and it could not freeze, no matter how cold it got, in fact he said that the inner rim surface was quite well polished indeed. He also stated that because of the relatively high weight to volume ratio the center of gravity was kept as low as possible since the tires did not have to be very full in order to achieve the desired ballast levels. An interesting idea, but I don't think I'm going to rush out and try it, but there it is. Best of luck. ....
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| TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley
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2002-03-22 36600
I hadn't really thought about whether Rim Guard doesn't freeze due to sugar or cellulose content. The product is described as pulp. So, I'm guessing that it comes from sugar refining and that the refining wouldn't be very efficient if there was enough sugar remaining to act as anti-freeze. Cellulose seems like a good explanation.
But, thinking about the hypothetical tire shop guy again: If the idea of pumping beet juice wouldn't unnerve him, the idea of dressing beads on sand filled tires might. When I was a kid, my cousins talked about calcium filled tires. For years I thought it was the stuff sometimes spread on roads. Just put a few bags of lime in the tires and there you have it--doesn't freeze either.
I can be full of misinformation and maybe Peters reduced some more of it for me. I always thought the conventional wisdom in informal alcohol production was to throw away the first of the distillate to get rid of any methanol, but it seems that methanol doesn't separate too well--not that we should be giving shining lessons here. I think there’s also the subject of fusal oil which has a higher boiling point than ethanol and can be a side-chain reaction in grain fermentation.
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| Peters
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 3034 Northern AL
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2002-03-22 36623
I kept meaning to add a not of what not to add to the tires.
It seem locally there where a number of farmers that ran their tractors on propane. I have seen a lot of vintage tractors around the area with propane fuel tanks.
One of the farmers got the bright (or explosive) idea of filling the tires with propane. Many followed suit and it worked for a number of years until one of the tires exploded while working in the field, nearly killing someone.
The partial pressure of propane at room temperature is something like 30 or 40 lb. I 110+ F in a black tire we are talking 100 lb +, pieces of flying rubber and a fire ball.
Believe me we do thing a little differently here in the south. ....
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| Bird Senter
Join Date: Jun 1999 Posts: 962
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2002-03-22 36626
Peters, from what I've HEARD, propane in tires, even in the south, may be more common than most folks realize. Hard to believe anyone would do that, but they do. Scary, ain't it? ....
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| dan t
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2002-03-22 36634
I promise this is my last response here--no matter what!! I've tried to stress that we're talking "theory" versus the real world. But to answer the question, "How do you create a negative pressure in a tire:"
Once the gut valve is removed (or the valve depressed) the air will leave the tire until the pressure inside the tire equals atmospheric pressure. [Put a pressure gauge on now and it will read "zero." In reality, though, the gauge is reading "zero differential between the pressure inside the tire versus the atmospheric pressure outside the tire. The TRUE pressure in the tire is (assuming you're at mean sea level and the temperature of the air is 59 F) 14.7 psi--the same as the atmosphere. You'll sometimes see "PSI" referred to "PSIG". This is a technical way for engineers to clarify whether a psi is referring to absolute pressure (PSI) or the pressure measured on a gauge (PSIG) which is, again, the difference between the pressure inside a closed system versus atmospheric. And, yes, this does mean that as the atmospheric pressure changes (high pressure weather systems/low pressure systems) the volume (size) of the tire does change e.g. when that rainy weather approaches and the atmospheric (barometric) pressure drops the tire expands (not enough, of course to measure) since the pressure inside the tire is "closed" and doesn't change--and thus the PSIG doesn't change.]
But I digress. Back to the tire: We've opened the gut valve. The liquid charge and some air remains inside. At that point removing one more molecule of fluid (a fluid can be either liquid or gas)reduces the pressure inside the vessel (tire.) Whenever the pressure of a fluid in a closed system is less than atmospheric it is expressed as a "negative" pressure, otherwise known as a partial vacuum. Since the atmospheric pressure is constant (for this theoretical discussion), as more fluid is removed from the tire the sidewalls begin to "collapse." This is literally the pressure of the atmosphere crushing the tire as the negative pressure differential inside increases. If the bead didn't break the tire would eventually completely come together inside. Remember the old saying "nature abhors a vacuum"? This is the colloquial way of saying all systems try to equalize--whether you're talking about temperature, pressure, electrical voltage, etc. This is why a pump is needed in the first place! Turning the tire upside down to drain the fluid would take forever, unless a way is provided for air to enter the tire to replace the draining fluid, thus continuously equalizing the pressure. Hence the "glug, glug, glug" of the inverted soda jug--the negative pressure created in the bottle as the liquid drains is relieved by the atmosphere forcing itself into the jug, pushing the the water out of its way momentarily in the process.
Pehaps some of the head-scratching is caused because we don't usually measure "negative pressures" in "psi," in the same way that we don't usually express atmospheric pressure (barometric pressure) in psi. Rather it is usually expressed in "inches of mercury" or "mm of mercury."
Enough already! :) ....
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| DRankin
Join Date: Jan 2000 Posts: 5116 Northern Nevada
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2002-03-23 36646
Dan, you are absolutely right. In the hemodialysis these exact principles are used to extract extra water from the bloodstream across a semi-permeable membrane. It is accomplished as you have described and measured and calculated in millimeters of mercury vacuum and called in common parlance “negative pressure” ....
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| Peters
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 3034 Northern AL
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2002-03-23 36661
Dan
I'm sorry if I was a bit criptic. As with any proff. I just wanted you to think about what you had said before.
As you stated you can never have a negative pressure (vacuum) in a balloon as the the walls of the balloon will always compensate for atmospheric pressure, therefore the partical vapor pressure of methanol will always be a fraction of 1 atm or greater within the tire. The other part of the atmospheric pressure is the water vapor assuming pressure it the tire is 0. The negative pressure with in the bottle occurs because the walls are rigid and the column of water in the bottle applied a small negative pressure. Normal pressure atmospheric pressure is O or 760 mm if Hg or 30 ft of water. A complete vacuum is -760 mm Hg or -30 ft of water. High vacuum in normall measured in torr.
As the tire is on the ground the weight of the tire will always exert a pressure on the tire deflecting the bottom. If the tire is elevated the top of the tire will deflect compensating for the volume running out. At not time will the contents in the tire be under negative pressure. If the tire was rigid then the highs vacuum would be less than 40 mm which is a very low negative pressure similar to the high and low atm. pressure variations.
Mark I have no idea what term medical community uses for osmotic pressure (in hemodialysis). They tend to use their own jargon for scientific concepts that have been around for centuries.
I guess they could use the term negative pressure if they are applying a vacuum on the water side of the membrane. You could also apply a positive pressure on the blood side this is called reverse osmosis (RO). The pressure or vaccuum on either side of the membrane must be equal to or greater than the osmotic pressure of the liquid.
RO is commonly used in desalinization and water purification. But can be used to purify all different types of liquids. ....
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| DRankin
Join Date: Jan 2000 Posts: 5116 Northern Nevada
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2002-03-24 36682
Dr. Peters, This exercise will certainly stretch a few dormant brain cells. I stopped my medical career in 1984 when I started breaking up bar fights and arresting drug dealers for a living.
I have produced many million gallons of RO water for dialysis treatments and even today there is a tiny 3-gallon per day unit quietly trickling away under the sink making some remarkably pure drinking water. There is a major difference between dialysis and RO membranes, other than the materials used for construction, and that is pore size.
I have experimented in the lab, back when I did medical research for the University of California, and was able to demonstrate some reverse osmotic properties in dialysis membranes but the difference was so slight that it was difficult to measure without very expensive instruments. Basically a dialysis membrane has an absolute filtration limit of around 1200 molecular weight. So if you have blood on one side and a known dialysate solution on the other, the salts, sugars, water and low molecular weight compounds will freely diffuse across the membrane but the protein and formed elements in the blood are hundreds of times too large to enter the pores. The dailysate, or cleansing fluid, is much like seawater and contains low normal serum values of Sodium, Potassium, Magnesium and Calcium. These are bonded to Chlorides, Acetates or Bicarbonates depending on the recipe. If a diabetic is being treated the mixture might contain a low level of glucose. The idea is to control the diffusion of the above elements over the course of the treatment so as not to let them fall below minimum levels while allowing the diffusion of uremic poisons such as urea nitrogen and creatinine to occur as fast as the membrane will allow.
That said, if you now add either back pressure to the blood compartment by restricting the return line, or a vacuum to the dialysate compartment by means of a pump, the membrane will allow water to be pulled or pushed out of the blood. Under the right circumstances the membrane will ‘weep’ and the rate of water removal (these patients cannot pee like you and I) can exceed 5 pounds per hour. But at these high-pressure differentials the water being extracted will drag solutes with it and actually lower serum sodium levels, for instance, to below the threshold set by the dialysate composition. So in this respect it is sort of the reverse of reverse osmosis. This solute drag problem can be quite dangerous if not monitored.
RO membranes on the other hand, will barely pass molecular weights of 60, as in common table salt. Quite the opposite of solute drag, these machines operated as solute separators. Under pressure the incoming water begins to layer out and form a pure water boundary next to the membrane, which the pressure then pushes through the pores. The higher the valence of the elements, the greater the ‘rejection’ by the membrane. For instance, calcium and magnesium compounds will layer out farther from the membrane than sodium. The product water might contain 2 percent of the incoming calcium carbonates resident in the feed water (98 percent rejection) but might have 8 percent residual sodium chloride (92 percent rejection). Sodium’s lower valence and therefore closer proximity to the membrane affords it greater opportunity to cross the barrier.
What about organics or compounds with no valence? They are simply filtered by the tiny pore size of the membrane, as they will not layer out under pressure. Most are much larger than the 60 molecular weight passage limit of the membrane. Typically an RO machine will refuse passage to 99.99 percent of all organics, but there are some petro chemicals that will show preferential passage or a higher concentration on the product side of the membrane. Ok, my brain hurts now.
Back to the topic at hand. I believe the sidewalls on most tubeless tires are stiff enough to create at least a partial vacuum if you are pumping fluid out of them. It will naturally relieve the vacuum eventually when you suck the bead off the rim. I know, nothing really sucks in nature, but I use it as a graphic alliteration. If you are withdrawing fluid from a tube within the tire, I believe the tube will collapse and create a partial vacuum in the air space between the tube and tire until, once again, the bead is broken. Whether the partial vacuum created in the LIQUID the TUBELESS tire is sufficient to separate methanol from water is something I have no experience with, but my guess would be that IF there were some partial separation, the elements would spontaneously recombine when the vacuum was relieved. TTFN Mark
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| DRankin
Join Date: Jan 2000 Posts: 5116 Northern Nevada
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2002-03-24 36683
Here is a thought that should end at least one aspect of this discussion. The premise is that we must remove the fluid to repair the tire. That means the tire has a hole in it. A tire/tube with a hole cannot sustain a vacuum. ....
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| RockyTop1
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2002-03-24 36689
I've have never heard that even number alcohols are safe.
Ethanol is relatively safe (healthwise), of course. For example, butyl alcohol has 4 carbons and is as bad as propyl alcohol that has 3.
The azeotrope does not imply flammability. The azeotrope is simply the point that a mixture emanates vapors with the same composition as the liquid. Ethanol/water occurs at 95/5. All this means is that you cannot distill and ethanol / water mixture to an ethanol purity greater than 95% with simple distillation. There are tricks to doing it but much to complicated to discuss here. So not all mixtures of ethanol and water are flammable. So in this sense you are just fooling yourself if you think
methanol/water is safer because of a no azeotrope. I don't know how well ethanol suppresses freezing point versus methanol. However,
natural ethanol (not denatured) is going to be taxed sky high so there isn't much incentive to use it. If you are a lab you can probably get a
tax exemption. Denatured ethanol is probably as toxic as methanol.
I didn't have time to check if the 1/14 methanol to water is flammable.
Flash point test is the only way to be sure. Should get supplier to verify it.
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| TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley
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2002-03-25 36703
Yes, it’s hard to believe about propane in tires. At least it's not flammable as long as no air is mixed in. Might be convenient though. I'd guess the pressure in a propane tank is about the right tire pressure for quite a few tractors. Sure would be better to buy an air compressor though.
For a completely dumb idea, I think that an inventive sort of person might think of designing a generator to attach to a tire. It could be used to pre-heat the engine on cold days as long as he didn't mind pumping up the tire before using the tractor. However, I suspect that such a person wouldn't be around long enough to test the idea.
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| Peters
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 3034 Northern AL
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2002-03-25 36707
Mark;
That is quite interesting. The term technique you describe is ultrafiltration. I know the original membranes used for dialysis were osmotic.
Quickly: In ultra fitration there is the filtering affect and the osmotic effect. Osmotic pressure is developed by the entropy of solvation. IE. entropy of a solution increases as the solution becomes more dilute. The process is osmosis. In an osmometer you have a closed cell filled with a solution and a pure solvent on the the side of a membrane. The pressure is measured in the closed cell.
I agree that if you pump out the solution in the tire there could be a partial vacuum. The partial pressures of methanol solutions would still mean that the vapor would not be flamible unless the methanol concentration was high. You need to use a good multiple distillation column to purify water and methanol. Again the toxic problem is more of a concern.
Back tracking we are considering windshield washing liquid. If the vapors concentrated we are more likely to have underhood explosions than tire explosions. Remember that under hood temperature are a problem in todays cars. Temperatures in excess of 200F are reached in most cars.
Rocky,
You are correct an aziotrope point does not mean a it will necessarily have a lower boiling point or higher vapor pressure. Aziotropes can be positive. No one is suggesting the use of ethanol. I was just trying to point out that methanol/water and ethanol/water mixtures behave much differently.
Ethanol/water (95/5) boils at a a lower temperature than ethanol. If you look at the water/ethanol water vapor phase diagram the amount of ethanol in the vapor is much higher than methanol at the same concentration, therefore methanol water is less flamible.
The main reason for this is the greater hydrogen bonding in the methanol/water mixture.
I was trying to KISS this and realized I was not giving a full explaination but?
I looked at the methanol/water and ethanol/water phase diagram before I started this and actually found them on the web. Could I find them again for this discussion!!! ....
Link: Alcohols Structure and BP
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| RockyTop1
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2002-03-25 36712
Ultrafiltration is for higher molecular weight molecules, something
on the order of 50,000 - 100,000. Next comes nanofiltration. Reverse Osmosis is next. Too clarify, the filtration process is RO. RO requires pressure to push the fluid from the concentrated side to the dilute side. Osmosis is the reverse process and will occur unaided until the pressure on the concentrated side of the membrane reaches a certain level.
When I get a chance I am going to calculate the activity coefficient
of 7% methanol in water at about 75 F. Should be able to calculate if the vapors are flammable at that point..
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| Peters
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 3034 Northern AL
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2002-03-25 36715
The cut off for ultrafiltration is normally 10,000, but this depends on the membranes you use and can be as low as 3 nm. I was considering more what you describe as laminar flow to help in the separation. Often you have a pressurized flow flowing over the membranes to keep them clean allowing only the smallar fractions next to the membrane.
Nano is 10 to 1 nanometers but the techniques s generally different.
RO is normally about 1 nm. There are purification techniques beyond RO for water.
Pressure is normally used in RO although the techique could also use vacuum. Unfortunately vacuum is likely to evaporate you solvent.
You may be right but I doubt that chemical companies would sell it if they knew we had a potential bomb under our car or truck hoods. ....
Link:
Click Here
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| RockyTop1
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2002-03-26 36730
With all the hassle of worrying about corrosion and toxic liquid ballast, etc. it looks like we are just making a great argument for wheel weights that attached to the hub. That's what I am going to do when I need them.
Under what circumstances do you really need them? If you have
an FEL you need back ballast or weights. I cut grass on hilly ground here with a TC33D/Bush Hog SQ600. I don't have any ballast or weights on the back tires. May need weights on the front but it isn't a big issue right now.
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| Peters
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 3034 Northern AL
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2002-03-26 36733
I agree wheel weights are making more and more sense. In the past I filled my tires with water and propylene glycol antifreeze. In the south we don't get that cold so I did not use that much material.
My current tractor has no ballast, but to date I have used it mostly for mowing.
Someone described using old lifting weights mounted to the hubs. He stated he liked it because he could easily reduce the weight or increase the weight. I would like some more info as to how it is working and what he did to connect. ....
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| BillMullens
Join Date: Jun 2000 Posts: 649 Central West Virginia
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2002-03-26 36742
I made rear wheel weights using 50-lb cast iron gym weights with a 1" hole in the center. I bolted a steel backing plate to the back of one weight, after welding on a 1" steel rod. I then bolted the weight onto the tractor wheel using the factory wheel weight holes (there are three on my tractor). I made the rod in the middle long enough to slide on 2 additional weights, so I can have up to 150 lbs per wheel. I welded a nut to the end of the steel rod; a bolt and washer holds the additional weights on. The set-up works fine. Even removing the bolted on weight just takes a few minutes (for access to the wheel bolts).
If I had it to do over, (and I may do it anyway), I'd make a backing plate out of 1/2" steel to bolt to the wheel, and make all the weights slide on. Drilling through that cast iron 50-lb plate took a long time.
Bill ....
Link: Wheel weights
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| Rubintropfen
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2002-03-26 36743
The old standard for CaCl solution for use in tires was 5 pounds per US gallon of water. I guess that takes you from about 8 to 13 pounds per gallon. My 13.6-28 tires can hold about 38 gallons, so that's close to 500 pounds. I don't see how any other solution discussed here will come close.
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| TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley
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2002-03-27 36761
Bill's weights look pretty slick. I'm curious how many fabrication skills somebody who tries the rear wheel weight idea should have. I know rear wheels don't rotate very fast even in road gear, but I wonder if a sloppy job could create wheel balance problems.
I think Rubin's comments about CACL are right. CACL has some negatives, but it is cheap, easy and few alternatives can match the weight possible. However, there is a case for wheel weights, especially for compacts. A main negative with loaded tires is that the ballast can't be easily taken off. Many compacts are used for finish mowing as well as draft work. A heavy tractor that has to drive across lawns may not be desirable. Loading also may adversely affect tractor handling when at road speeds.
A few months back there was a discussion about excessive ballast. I think some tests were cited that compared wheel slippage rates were compared at different tractor weights. Reading the test designs for the Nebraska Farm Tests might be interesting even if compacts aren't represented in the tests. A conclusion I recall from all this is that there is such a thing as an over-weight tractor. Extra weight doesn't buy much in terms of additional pulling power and extra weight contributes to wear and tear and high fuel consumption.
The main idea here is that ballast is something that adjusts a tractor to its work. Simply piling on a bunch of ballast (not that anybody is advocating that) may not be the best approach. CACL loading may be best, especially for fieldwork. Less weight that also is removable may be best for the work done by many compacts.
Myself, I frequently have to put a lot of weight in my loader to balance loads on my 3ph forklift. The combined weight of the forks and load may run close to 2000 lbs. Although I don't drive far with those loads, I figure I don't need to carry the weight of loaded tires as well.
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| Peters
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 3034 Northern AL
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2002-03-27 36774
I like Bills idea as it could be relatively inexpensive. I pictured his technique differently and still don't have a clear idea what he would do.
I was thinking that if you welded a plate with holes to match the wheel lugs to a short section of bar like a dumb bell bar. Mounted the bar would be centered over the hub. From this I envisioned using the normal weigh collars and possibly a pin secure the weights to the shaft bar. I thought this would be easy to add and remove weight.
It might not seem right but 5 and 8 does not equal 13 gallons per lb. As I tried to explain earlier you add CaCl to the water at first the volume does not increase as the Ca+ and Cl- fit into the packing structure of the H2O. After this the volume increases and therefore the mass per gallon does not increase as much. The value of 11 lb/gallon given eariler many be correct.
CaCl is loaded in saturated and often you can see particles of CaCl in the water. ....
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| Crazy8
Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 4 Pennsylvania
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2002-03-27 36777
Regarding tractor tire ballasting, the article at the following URL may be of interest:
http://www1.uwex.edu/ces/pubs/pdf/A3401.PDF
Regards
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| Rubintropfen
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2002-03-27 36781
No doubt that Peters is right about the change in volume of a saturated solution. But the owners manual for my tractor says for 90% fill you take 38 gallons of water and 187 pounds of CaCl to get about 504 pounds of solution per tire. They don't say what the actual resulting volume is.
I liked the info in the PDF file posted by Crazy8.
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| Peters
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 3034 Northern AL
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2002-03-27 36786
If I read the table in the post correctly the first tire would have 187 1b in 17 gallons of fluid at a 5 lb per gallon loading which is saturated or 11lb per gallon.
OK who had 11lb/gallon first and I don't know what's the prize is yet. Mark? Tom? Paul?
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| DRankin
Join Date: Jan 2000 Posts: 5116 Northern Nevada
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2002-03-27 36789
I hope the prize is not a toaster. I just bought a new one. ....
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| TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley
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2002-03-28 36803
Nope, I didn't weigh in on that one. I've been reading the chem stuff though. ....
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| DRankin
Join Date: Jan 2000 Posts: 5116 Northern Nevada
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2002-03-28 36817
This discussion comes at a good time. Two days ago I churned up some old lumber while moving dirt and punctured a front and a rear tire with the screws sticking out of the boards. So it was time to review the whole ballast program. My tires have been filled with calcium and water for about 9 months and the rims are already showing some signs of rust. Not bad rust as in scale and pitting but more like strains showing through the paint and a bit worse around sharp edges like the hole for the valve stem. So I started looking at options.
1)What if I have to replace the rims someday? The 4100 has a common size rear rim available from Gemplers for under 50 bucks. Sorry Tom. I mean US dollars. The fronts are a different story. Metric bolt pattern, tiny 12x3 size and only available from Deere unless you can find a certain model Yanmar in a salvage yard, which I have had no luck doing. The price? Sit down. Deere wants $746.96 for a set of 4 replacement rims, plus shipping. The front rims alone go for $133.39 each.
2)Maybe wheel weights are the answer. Yeah that’s it, I’ll clean up the rims and put some oil of the rusty parts and use wheel weights. I check with my dealer. Six, sixty-pound wheel weights at $90.00 each plus mounting brackets put me right back to $750.00.
3)Ok. Plan C. We go dry on the front rims which only hold 10-15 lbs of fluid anyway and keep the rears wet. Out comes the jack stands and tools and we make a trip to the tire store. I get the fronts broken down, rinsed and dried, new tubes installed and filled only with air. The punctured rear gets a new tube and a refill out of a barrel of fluid. The guy puts about three gallons in and says that’s good. I say its gotta hold more than that and he says no its full and this is all we ever put in. I say I have money in my wallet so keep pumping. He is worried that he will blow up the tire and I say it’s ok just relieve the air pressure every few minutes and keep pumping. We finally get it filled to the valve stem and I take it home. Before I put it back on the tractor I decide to weigh it so I can report the numbers to Peters. The bathroom scale, which is a terrible liar whenever I stand on it, says this baby weighs 182 pounds. Not bad for a 245/75-16. Wonder what an empty one weighs? The 265/75-15 tire and wheel from the pick up weighs 60 pounds. OK roughly 120 pounds of ballast. I wonder what the other, unpunctured tractor tire weighs? Whoops. 90 pounds. What’s wrong with this picture?
Back to the tire store with the lightweight rear tractor tire. They are out of fluid and need to mix more. The kid says we will only need a couple gallons and I say we need about 9 gallons. He asks how on earth I could know that and I explain.
Deer in the headlights.
The guy next to him actually had a fly go in and out of this mouth. That whole tire can’t hold more than three gallons they say.
We’ll see.
They mix up some new fluid using calcium chloride labeled as ice melt, 96 percent pure. Five gallons of water and about two cups of salt. They treat it as if they are handling poison.
Wait. Aren’t you gonna put more salt in there?
This isn’t salt it’s some kind of other stuff, and we are already mixing it too strong.
Do you know what the saturation point is?
Saturwhat?
Saturation point. You know, like when you have a bucket of water with salt on the bottom because the fluid will not hold any more unless you change the temperature or the Ph?
Blank Stare.
You know, like the brine tank on your water softener at home?
They glance at each other out of the corners of their eyes with a look that says this guy is making this up.
Sigh. Just fill the tire, OK?
It takes two five gallon buckets. They scratch their heads. They poke the tire. They look inside the empty buckets. Yup, it’s all gone. Wonder where it went.
Thank God we are done serious freezing weather until next November.
Anybody out there have any ideas on how to cobble together a pump to fill tires with fluid? Maybe a little rotary vane drill pump will work. I’m just not sure how to adapt to the valve stem threads.
....
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| Peters
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 3034 Northern AL
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2002-03-28 36818
Ok, Mark you knew I would have a return story about the south. You will have to wait for the info.
I had the rear tires on my JD 750 filled when I bought it. The stem on the back rusted and began to leak. I looked around and finally had to order the tubes from the tire supply. I took the tire off and down to the local tire shop. They wonder what it is filled with. After draining, and removing the tire from the rim for a clean and paint. I take it back to the tire shop. The mount it and I ask them to fill it. Deer in the head lights. Where can I get it filled? Deer in the head lights. I need the tractor so I take it home and mount it. Later I make a few inquires at the other tire shops, no answers. Finally I left it went to the tire store. I bought an attachment, which connects to the garden hose and filled it my self. I used the propylene glycol and poured it in the hose.
Propane anyone? Maybe its better than Russian roulette after dealing with tire stores.
....
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| Crazy8
Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 4 Pennsylvania
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2002-03-28 36820
My buddy had problems with his wheel rusting due to the liquid ballast,leakage as well. The local friendly Firestone dealer shared the following bulletin with him, no brainer I suppose, but trying to get good advice on this is tough sometimes.
http://www.firestoneag.com/tech/ballasting/f071x.asp ....
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| RockyTop1
Join Date: Posts: 1
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2002-03-28 36821
One thing this thread has convinced me of - I'll never put liquid ballast in my compact tractor. I'll do the wheel weights if I need them. Who needs the headhaches? ....
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| Peters
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 3034 Northern AL
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2002-03-28 36824
Concering rejection of filling
Remember:
1) that tire filling has been used in Ag and industrial applications a long time.
2) It will cost you a lot to buy the equivalent weights. If you look at the charts of the PDF file that Crazy8 posted there is a lot of weight in a small tire.
3) Filling tires adds weight were you need it to increase stability. Below the center of gravity. The only other way to do this would be to hang weights on your 3pt hitch. ....
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| DRankin
Join Date: Jan 2000 Posts: 5116 Northern Nevada
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2002-03-28 36825
Yo rocky, it is a pain at times but so is shelling out hundreds of dollars or trying to fabricate something. Every time I start that process my wife comes out to the garage about a week later and wants to know if we are still married. Besides I am missing the welding gene. Not sure I should admit to that in a forum like this but as far as I am concerned welding is some form of magic. Oh I can weld all right. I can weld that little metal stick to a chunk of steel faster than you can say pass the chunky monkey ice cream. By way of compensation, I own every size drill bit available in the western world and some that I am not to sure originated on this planet. And I have at least five drills. And one that I only use on Sundays. And the world’s largest collection of mismatched nuts, bolts, fasteners and useful widgets, gizmos and goomers.
But that is not why I called.
Here is my plan. I am going to invent a tire I.V. This one should only put a small strain on my marital bliss. A small plastic trashcan equipped with a bulkhead adapter and a flexible hose should work. The inner diameter of the hose should be sized to fit over the outside of the valve stem where it can be secured with a hose clamp. In the line will be a ‘T’ fitting and another hose leading to the food saver. Here is the tricky part, as I will obviously have to do this only when my wife is at work. Clamp off the fluid supply and turn on the food saver until the innertube is sucked down to the size of a raisin, then ‘Walla’ like they say on those cooking shows, we clamp off the vacuum from the food saver and open up the gravity flow from the calcium and water reservoir and let nature take its course. It won’t be fast, but neither is driving across town to the tire store. I will be able to control the composition of the fluid and I bet I can do fill a tire without getting corrosive fluids all over the inside and outside of the rim. And just imagine the benefits of not have to interact with potential and future airline baggage handlers. See you later; I’m heading for the garage!
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| TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley
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2002-03-29 36831
I believe I recall Bird talking about a valve he has for filling and pumping out tires. Northern Tool is a place to look for such things. It can be done at home, and from the tire shop story, I think I’d start looking for a valve and pump. One of these times I'll figure out why CACL in a tube corrodes wheels, unless there's been a puncture I guess. Lot of people do mention it.
Don't know how much liquid a particular tire is supposed to hold, but 75% fill is pretty standard. At 75%, the fill covers the top of the rim, which is good for people who use CACL in tubless tires. Someday I’ll figure out that one as well. Positioning a valve stem and letting some air (or fluid) out can check the level.
I think that having quite a bit of air in the tires is desirable, and that they'll ride like foam filled tire without considerable air space. Foam did I say? It is an alternative for people who don't mind rough rides or changing tires by cutting them off. Wonder how much foam weighs?
Suitcase weights on the front are probably better than filled tires-the lead filled box tubing seems like a good low-priced alternative. The trouble with weight on the 3ph is that it doesn't serve as ballast when an implement is in use. Adding weight below the centre of gravity is good. I think that tractor centres of gravity tend to be a bit above the axles. Wheel weights place almost half the weight below axle level and almost certainly lower the CG. 75% filled tires do a little better at lowering the CG I think.
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| BillMullens
Join Date: Jun 2000 Posts: 649 Central West Virginia
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2002-03-29 36837
Check out this link. I guess at least Firestone doesn't recommend methanol. Neat site to browse around.
Bill ....
Link: Firestone tire warning
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| Peters
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 3034 Northern AL
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2002-03-29 36840
Bill you are right they don't recommend methano. The trouble is I have no idea what methano is unless it is spanish for methanol.
I personally would not recommend methanol for another reason. As mentioned before it is corrosive. Therefore we are replacing on non-flamible dense material, CaCl, with a corrosive flamible less dense material. What is the point?
Tom most of my problems with CaCl have been leaking around the valve stem. Unfortunately the material tends to rust the stem , few are all brass now, and once released it takes numberous routes to the ground. ....
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| RockyTop1
Join Date: Posts: 1
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2002-03-29 36842
Someone should go into the tire weight making business. They could do really well.
....
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