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Synthetic or not

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tpulley
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 44 Wake Forest, NC
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2011-05-13          178445


Any ideas on whether to use synthetic on my new 11 Kioti45Se? I am thinking of changing over to synthetic as I sue this in pretty much everything else. The Kioti manual doesn't reference it one way or another.

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auerbach
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 2168 West of Toronto
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2011-05-13          178448


Syn holds its properties much longer but gets just as dirty so it's not a good idea to double the oil-change hours. It can be made in a much wider viscosity range, so the 5/50 is what you need when you start in way-below-freezing and end your workday slogging in the tropics. ....

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richwaugh
Join Date: Mar 2010
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2011-05-13          178450


I definitely wouldn't recommend using the synthetic oil until the break-in period is complete. Everything I have heard and read says that dead dinosaur oil is preferable for break-in. It's also way cheaper, particularly if you change it after the first five hours and again after twenty hours to get rid of the extraneous bits of metal, casting sand and dirt that are invariably in a new engine. After a hundred or two hundred hours is plenty soon enough to make the switch.

For your location there in Wake Forest, I'd recommend the 15W-40 rather than the 5W-50. Running that low a viscosity in 32F temps won't provide sufficient lubricating film strength. The 40 weight will be fine for your highs of 90-95F, too. ....

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hardwood
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 3583 iowa
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2011-05-13          178454


The synthetic oil thing gets kicked around here every so often, there are those who swear by it and those who swear at it. My belief is if your owners manual calls for synthetic then by all means use it, if the OM makes no mention of it I wouldn't spend the extra money. By simply using the oil and filters recommended in the Om and doing it on a timely manner there are few compact tractor owners who will live long enough to see and engine worn out from normal use.
Frank. ....

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greg_g
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 1816 Western Kentucky
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2011-05-14          178456


Can't speak for Kioti, but I was told by the dealer that my 2011 John Deere had synthetic oil in the engine when I bought it. I have a good supply of 0W40 and 5W40 (Mobil 1) that I use in my both my turbo diesel cars. As such, I have no problem - mechanically or financially - using it in the Deere too .

Again, can't speak for Kioti. But the new Deere doesn't have a "break-in" period like the older tractors and vehicles did. The first oil/filter change on this is at 200 hours (or yearly). So given that I'll never change more frequently than once a year, it makes sense financially for me to use extended life synthetics too.

Long story short, find out from your Kioti dealer what was in it from the factory. Make your decision from there.

//greg// ....

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tpulley
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 44 Wake Forest, NC
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2011-05-14          178457


The OM doesn't make a reference to synthetics at all that i could find. This could also be an argument that it doesn't matter one way or another.

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hardwood
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 3583 iowa
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2011-05-14          178463


Yes, with no reference in either direction it would seem to give you the option of using either one unless these OM's were printged long enough ago that synthetics weren't common yet. I wouldn't be concerned about harming the engine by using the correct synthetic to match the specs called for in a regular engine oil, i just would doubt you would ever recover the value of the extra money spent.
Frank. ....

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____________________________________________________________________________________
Synthetic or not

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greg_g
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 1816 Western Kentucky
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2011-05-14          178470


Quote:
Originally Posted by hardwood | view 178463
i just would doubt you would ever recover the value of the extra money spent.Frank.
I don't know what the extended oil change interval for a Kioti might be Frank, but I disagree with your idea about value. I have two turbo-diesel cars, in which I use synthetic engine oil. I change oil and filter at the manufacturer's recommended 13,000 mile interval. At case rate (6-pack) I pay about $6.45/qt and maybe $10 for the filter. It's an 8 quart change. That amounts to about $62 every 13,000 miles or $23.85 every 5000 miles.

Mercedes says it's ok to use conventional oil too, but that means going to an oil/filter change schedule of every 5000 miles. Shell Rotella-T 15W40 costs about $12/gal around here, and it takes two gallons. Filter still costs $10. That's $34 every 5000 miles. Plus labor times 3 if you don't do it yourself.

No reason the same math shouldn't apply to a tractor.

//greg// ....

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hardwood
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 3583 iowa
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2011-05-14          178472


Auer;
I don't want to start the old synthetic/regualr oil feud going again. You believe in it, I don't, you like Pepsi, I like Coke, to each his or her own, nuff said there.
My only comment on your post on using the synthetic in your cars is that perhaps you log up a lot of miles in a hurry that doesn't allow the oil to be in the engine long enough to collect the acids and other contaminants that come with long streches between oil changes. I spoke in the thread here about oil change intervals for compacts that I don't like going into a winter with old oil in an engine whether it has ran 10 hours or 90 hours since the prior fall. In my case as an example had I used a synthetic with a double the hours change interval I would have changed the oil four times since the tractor was new in 1999, the tractor has about 850 hours now. That would have meant going into at least three winters with old contaminated oil, no thanks.
Frank. ....

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tpulley
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 44 Wake Forest, NC
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2011-05-14          178481


I had the wifey pick up the filters and oil today. Will put them in in the next couple of days. That and check all the bolts/nuts. 15w 40 is what they said was in it and their recommendation for our area. This is pretty close to what I use in everything else (10w 40) I doubt the difference is noticeable. Anyhoooo I am off and running.

So why would you change your oil when it hadn't reached a certain number of hours as mentioned above. Seems to me that would be a waste of money. The idea I thought is change the oil when its dirty. ....

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hardwood
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 3583 iowa
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2011-05-14          178484


Tpulley;
I was generalizing the use hours of most compact tractors when I spoke of not adheering to a stict so many hours oil change. That said if you are going to use your tractor in fully warmed up long hour time spans then you likely can run the full time span recommended in your owners manual. I'd guess that 90% of all compact tractors and small engine powered equipment are used like mine in short spurt an hour here a half hour there and never fully warmed up enough to keep water and acids from collecting in the crankcase oil. That is the situation where I don't adhere to any hourly scheduel, the oil gets changed before every winter whether it was used 6 hours or 96 hours. Oil whether it be regular or synthetic doesn't wear out it becomes contaminated. Your filter screens out the dirt and larger particles but the acids aren't filtered out they just continue to acumulate until you change the oil.
I'm not trying to be a Mr. Know it all here, and no matter how long any of us has been doing anything we still all will find new things to learn as we go. I think I can speak with some experience on the subject tho since I've been servicing tractors and heavy equipment since the mid 1950's. Of all the tractors and equipment I've owned and serviced in that time span I can only remember of one or two engines that actually wore out from normal use, the rest of the engine failures came from another cause, an oil cooler leaking antifreeze into the oil, air cleaner failure, broken valve spring, etc. I have saw engines that failed prematurly from neglect, the type of oil, synthetic or regular would have made no difference, the oil just was not changed when it should have been, Acids and water contaminate it causing bearing damage that could have been prevented by not trying to strech an oil change to a specific number of hours.
Frank. ....

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greg_g
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 1816 Western Kentucky
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2011-05-14          178490


Regarding acid and water Frank: consider that conventional and synthetic oils have a completely different base - hydrocarbon versus poly or ester - which means they don't have the same chemical composition. The natural contaminants that come out of the ground with carbon-based oil simply aren't present in synthetics. Granted, oil can get "wet" whether it's dyno or synthetic. But it's the chemical composition of the oil that determines how - or even if - acids and contaminants result. In this case, true synthetics win. Note I said true synthetics however. The dyno content of synthetics will continue to act in part as you describe. I personally won't waste money on blends. Both my cars and now my John Deere are running full synthetics. If I haven't sold my Chevy by the next oil change, it's gonna get a synthetic treatment too.

One other point; the while price of conventional oils continue to rise dramatically - especially under Obama - the price of synthetics have remained relatively flat.

//greg// ....

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hardwood
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 3583 iowa
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2011-05-15          178491


Gregg;
Like I said I always have room for new things to learn. I'm not a chemist so I really wasn't ever sure what synthetic oils were made from. Another place the word synthetic has been used for a long time was synthetic rubber used to make tires. I've never known what synthetic rubber was made form but just assumed it was a product of some chemicals being blended together.
I used to restore some old Farmalls that usually had been sitting in an old barn or sometimes under a tree for years without running. Most all of them had the inside of the rocker arm cover coated with about a half inch of whitish slimy goo that must have been the buildup of sludge that collected for years. The engine oils used in those old tractors no doubt was a non detergent oil that didn't keep the sludge in suspension to be sorted out by the filter. I haven't had a rocker arm cover off of a late model diesel engine but I would assume that no matter the type of oil used the slimy goo wouldn't be there. Likely the better detergents in the new oils carry the goo away to be caught in the filter and likely the higher engine temperatures would keep the whiteish part,(water) from collecting.
Frank. ....

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greg_g
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 1816 Western Kentucky
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2011-05-15          178492


That slimy goo is called emulsion. It's what happens when oil and water and air mix to the extent that the oil and water will no longer separate. Under an microscope, the emulsion is actually a collection of tiny bubbles. It's very common under valve covers of tractors that don't get used much, especially those with crankcase breathers that are never serviced. If left too long, fresh oil splashing under the valve cover eventually washes the emulsion down into the crankcase. At that point, the dipstick starts lookin' like that crap too. I've seen it happen inside tractor trannys & differentials too. When you see that stuff, it means you're already overdue for a drain/flush/refill. Besides promoting acids and contaminants, air bubbles are very poor lubricants.

The way to minimize the emulsion problem is to store the tractor indoors. What gets it started in the first place is extended periods of setting idle in direct sunlight. The heating/cooling cycle of day/night causes condensation to form under the valve cover (and on the exposed inside walls of gear boxes). Condensation turns to water, water mixes with the oils, running the engine agitates air into the oil/water solution - pretty soon you've got emulsion.

//greg// ....

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kthompson
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 5219 South Carolina
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2011-05-16          178510


I have been using synthetic oil for a few years in all engines. Not 100% but right near it.

To begin with wrote Castro and ask about some of the claims regarding synthetic and they did right me back with the details asked for. Used that and then was told (not sure how I checked it out) that Castro no longer used a full synthetic but think they may had made change there due to loose of business.

It is very much my habit to check mileage each tank fill up. Before switching to the synthetic for a few tanks wrote it down to be certain. The one I remember so the difference in gas mileage went up enough along with the difference in oil change (I went to 10,000 mileages rather than 5,000) to pay for the synthetic oil higher price per change. With mileage improving with only changing the oil it had to be there was better lubrication allowing the engine to run easier to give the improvement. To me that says less wear as there is less friction.

My nephew changed based upon my recommendation the oil in his Ford F350 IH diesel and after pulling trailer loaded ask could that have lowered my engine temp, as with no other change the engine ran cooler with the synthetic and he also noticed mileage improvement. Again both to me speak of less friction and must again less friction and thus less wear.

There there is the first oil change with synthetic I did. As the filter was broke loose and it ran down the filter it was all I could do to spin off the loose filter as it was so slippery. Just feeling it the used synthetic was slicker than the new dyno oil.

Below is link to Mobil One web site of brand of cars who install Mobil One at the factory.

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Link:   Mobil One factory installed

 
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