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AbbasChild
Join Date: Aug 2009
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2011-02-01          176655


I have a NH T2210 with FEL (240TL) (146 hours) that has had problems with bucket leak down while operating the tractor at working rpms. It only affects the bucket, which if held in the fully curled position, after 20 minutes will have un-curled (dumped) by about 3-4 inches. This occurs loaded (manure or rocks) or empty. Much more noticable (may occur quicker) when going over rougher terrian. I had the tractor back to the dealer for some other issues and they "made some adjustments" to the FEL. That seemed to help for a day or 2, but within a total of 10 hours of operating the tractor, it seems to be back to where I started.

It does not necessarily affect the functioning of the tractor--although it is annoying to have to curl the bucket full of manure so it does not drop out all over. The dealer spoke to NH and was told that there is "normal/tolerable leak down." This being my first tractor, I do not know what is "right" but I would think that operating the tractor at 2400rpm, that bucket should not move.

Any thoughts? What information can I take back to the dealer that may help solve this issue for me?

Mike

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greg_g
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2011-02-01          176657


Well, it sounds like cylinder bypass. And it only takes one of the two cylinders leaking down to cause this. But is it really an issue? I mean, will losing 3-4 inches of bucket curl over a 20 minute period actually affect your work?

What I'm trying to say, is that it may not be worth pursuing aggressively at this point in time. You have officially recorded your concern with the dealer, they have officially recorded "corrective action".

If it is cylinder leakdown, it always gets worse - never better. So keep an eye on it. When it gets to the point of affecting your work - but BEFORE the warranty expires - take the issue back up with the dealer

//greg// ....

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AbbasChild
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2011-02-01          176660


Greg, thanks for the input. Your response is exactly what I was trying to figure out--how much to persue it. Moving sand/gravel this past summer it was not an issue covering short distances. I am trying to be sure I am not missing a bigger issue. Like you said, other than being annoying at times, it really does not affect my ability to do the work I bought the tractor for. Thanks!
Mike ....

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auerbach
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2011-02-01          176661


The engine speed is irrelevant for holding position; it will self-dump the same even with the engine off. It's an internal leak in either the controller or the bucket cylinders. They all do this; the questions are how much is acceptable and is it worsening.

For the answers, standardize the conditions, like the arms and the bucket-top horizontal, shut down, and using a level and a ruler measure the drop after, say, 30 min. That's your reference to compare in the future. Try to get a similar model, maybe on the dealer's lot, to compare.



....

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AbbasChild
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2011-02-02          176666


Thanks, Auerbach. I will try that. And it will give me a reference point. If "they all do it" I feel a little better, than accepting something that is not suppose to happen and just tolerating it.

Great ideas--thanks again!
Mike ....

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greg_g
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2011-02-02          176667


Quote:
Originally Posted by AbbasChild | view 176666
If "they all do it" I feel a little better
In my experience, they don't "all do it". I've got a 7 year old Koyker 160 loader (60" bucket) on my 35hp CUT that holds pressure as good as the day I bought it. And I'll still hold to the position that it shouldn't on a 146 hour tractor either. Keep that dealer honest !!

//greg// ....

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hardwood
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2011-02-02          176671


I don't want to take sides here to start an argument but I'll have to agree they dont "All" do it. With enough use and normal wear yes then they all will. Whether it is enough to be a problem is up to the judgement owner.
My 430 loader boom or the bucket curl on the 4310 Deere doesn't settle.
Anytime something else isn't on the three point my box blade is, I have a bad habit of leaving it up. I think it could sit for six months and never settle.
My Deere No. 48 backhoe attachment is a different story. It goes on the same tractor but has it's own set of hydraulic valves. The boom has settled since day one, warm day, cold day, full bucket, empty bucket, it don't matter. While using it it isn't enough to even notice, but leave it sit with the boom up and it goes all the way down in probably ten minutes. I don't know if the others do it or not, I just never bothered to see what was wrong.
Frank. ....

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earthwrks
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2011-02-03          176683


If your tractor is anything like my NH, it has what is called a regen(erative) bucket curl system. Basically, according to the service manual, fluid that is on one side of the cylinder is added to the other side to increase flow i.e. curl cycle time. This allows quicker cycle times (at the cost of loss of usable hydraulic pressure) since the pump is lacking enough flow to prevent cavitation when the bucket curls or uncurls. The diagram in the manual shows a check valve, but typical NH poorly written texts and pictures it doesn't show where it is--I have a hunch it's on the loader control valve and may look like a cap head bolt or fitting. That could be bad. Worth a try.

I would call Les the service tech at www.messicks.com at extension #123. Sorry I don't have Messick's no., but go to their site and it's at the top of the webpage. ....

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Murf
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2011-02-03          176684


It's been my experience, at least in our fleet, that the leak-down rate has more to do with hours of operation than anything else.

That is, the more hours of experience the operator has, the less likely leak-down is.

In every case I've seen it was a seal issue. There is no pressure relief valve in the plumbing of the FEL. Things like aggressive digging into a pile of material puts enormous pressures on the system and the weakest link is the seals

Now that's not to say that things like OEM tolerances and such don't enter into it, but I've seen lots of machines with no leak-down for years like Greg's. Then a new operator gets on it, in a month it has a leak-down issue.


Best of luck. ....

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AbbasChild
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2011-02-04          176687


Thanks again for all of the interest and input. Thanks for the name at messicks (I have not yet called there).

I have conducted the little test that auerbach suggested. Here are the results:

Time Bucket Lift Arm Difference (Bucket only) 0 0 0 0
30 -2 -0.5 -1.5
60 -3.25 -1 -2.25
120 -5 -1.5 -3.5

Time is in minutes; distance in inches from baseline. "Bucket" is the total drop of the height of the FEL meassured from the from "cutting" edge; "Bucket only" is subtracting out the drop of the lift arms. The three point lifts arms did not move. If I heard correctly, this should not change if the engine is running, correct?

Mike ....

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AbbasChild
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2011-02-04          176688


Sorry about the numbers--they were arranged clearer before the message was posted. Here they are again:

Time; Bucket ; Lift Arm ; Difference(Bucket only)
0; 0; 0; 0
30; -2; -0.5; -1.5
60; -3.25; -1; -2.25
120; -5; -1.5; -3.5
....

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auerbach
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2011-02-05          176689


Abba, to clarify, every pressure seal (not just hydraulic) will leak from the outset. In a quality or low-pressure system it will be at the molecular level and not measurable.

The leakage is subject to change with wear. Usually it gets worse but sometimes the seal sets and leaks less. Some systems hold pressure well over decades but most show slight degrading from new and worsen with time and (mis)use. Individual differences apply to machines as well as people.

In applications such as military and aviation the permissable leakage is specified. I doubt this is done for tractors but you could pose as a potential buyer of different brands and ask if the maker specifies the limit for an acceptable leakdown in loader components.

I would guess that the amount you have documented just makes it into the generally-accepted tolerable limit. A couple inches of sag in an empty bucket over a half hour isn't great but won't interfere with operations. If it worsens, you have documented the concern.

You can confirm that the drop with engine on, whether slow or fast, is the same. It's to counteract the drop that you need the pump spinning.

Hope that helps. ....

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AbbasChild
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2011-02-05          176696


Thanks, auerbach, for your time and helping me to better understand this. (Sometimes when I read things here, I feel that these machines are so fragile! :) )

So if I understand this, the drop (or leakdown) should be the same with the engine running? And when you say to counteract the leak the pump needs to be spinning--is that when I am moving the spool valve lever?

Thanks again!
Mike ....

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crunch
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2011-02-05          176706


Abbas, my JD 430 loader leaks down like yours. If I leave the bucket loaded and I have it in position holding stone for me while I am working on the ground I have to watch and run over and periodially lift the bucket.

It has been this way since new. There are old discussions on leakdown in this forum where it was acknowledged that JD had bucket leak down but not 3pt leak down. Kubota has 3pt leak down but no bucket leak down. ....

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auerbach
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2011-02-05          176709


"So if I understand this, the drop (or leakdown) should be the same with the engine running?" YES

"And when you say to counteract the leak the pump needs to be spinning--is that when I am moving the spool valve lever?" EXACTLY

....

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greg_g
Join Date: Jan 2004
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2011-02-06          176718


Quote:
Originally Posted by AbbasChild | view 176696
So if I understand this, the drop (or leakdown) should be the same with the engine running?And when you say to counteract the leak the pump needs to be spinning--is that when I am moving the spool valve lever?Thanks again!Mike
Well, yes and no. You started out by just describing a bucket problem, which could simply be bypass in a curl cylinder. But then you added lift arm drop to the equation. Now unless NH is using some awful cheap cylinders, the likelihood of multiple cylinder bypass on a 146 hour tractor diminishes. Unless it was 146 hours of abuse. If the issue is as simple as cheap/abused cylinders, that's a reasonable conclusion.

But. Let's look at this scenario. After your trial idle period when a raised bucket uncurls and the arms lower, you start the engine. The bucket curls back up and the loader arms raise. Without touching the controller that is. If that happens, you've got leakdown through the controller itself. That's cuz it's common to both curl AND lift. If however you have to nudge the controller to return the bucket and arms to where you left them, I think that puts us back to the cheap (or abused) cylinder scenario.

But personally, I wouldn't worry much about the issue unless you actually lose lift and curl when you're actually using the loader for it's design purpose. I mean, how many times in the lifetime of a tractor are you going to have to rely on holding a bucketful of anything up in a fixed position over a period of hours?

//greg// ....

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auerbach
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2011-02-06          176725


Exactly, pointing to the controller.

Otherwise, I'd think that for bucket self-dumping you'd need both cylinders bad. ....

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greg_g
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2011-02-07          176727


Quote:
Originally Posted by auerbach | view 176725
I'd think that for bucket self-dumping you'd need both cylinders bad.
Naw, it only takes one. Once the shared load of a cylinder pair is unbalanced, over-pressure afflicts the otherwise "good" cylinder.

//greg// ....

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AbbasChild
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2011-02-07          176731


Thanks again for all the input and feedbeack.

Greg--you are correct--my issue when operating the tractor is really only noticable with the bucket--that is why I only mentioned the bucket initially. But when I did the "leak down test" I meassured both the lift arms and bucket drop from the starting position. If the lift arms are leaking down under normal operating conditions, I do not notice the 1/2 inch drop. But what I do notice is what I call a "floppy bucket" after 10-20minutes loaded and even unloaded. When I am hualing manure to our compost pile up a rough dirt road, by the time I get to the end of the road (400ft length, 16% average grade) I notice the bucket which started in the fully curled position to maximize carry load, is now un-curled and as I pass over rough terrian will be floppy that I will lose some "horse apples" (manure) along the road if I do not "firm up the curl" again (move the spool valve lever to the left). I also noticed this when brush hogging fields this summer and fall while the bucket was empty, that it would be flopping around out there as I was cutting the field.

So is that "normal" or is there something wrong in the spool value or a leak in the hydaulic line that I have not found. I am not one to abuse my equipment. This is my first tractor so I am a "new" operator.

I hope that clarifies the problem or at least the issue.

Mike ....

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AbbasChild
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2011-02-07          176732


Regarding the scenerio you mentioned--I will try that. Right or wrong--When I am parking the tractor for the day, once the engine is off, I move the spool valve lever through the down positions to rest the bucket and arms on the garage floor--thinking I am reducing risk of it falling on someone or one of our cats. Next time I will put it in a "safe postion" and try what you suggested.

Thanks! Mike ....

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greg_g
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2011-02-07          176734


So we're back to the possibility of curl cylinder leakdown. But short of fixin' it yourself, the original recommendation remains; that is, don't let the warranty expire before getting an acceptable resolution from the dealer.

One note about lowering the loader. This applies to the rear lift too. Always lower with the engine running. That does two things; (a) it makes sure that the next time you start the tractor, there's already fluid on both sides of the hydraulic pistons (prevents cavitating the pump), and (b) reduces the possibility of unnecessary back-filling the sump (which could lead to a mess under the tractor).

//greg// ....

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AbbasChild
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2011-02-08          176774


Thanks again for the input--and the tip!
Mike ....

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BoonvilleKid
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2011-02-14          176870


Greg, Now, you've got me worrying. I had a FEL and a backhoe on a 955JD. The FEL will stay up all day, in the same position, engine running or not, while the backhoe, due to being heavier I suppose and having more leverage, will not. I have had the habit of always "relaxing" the system after shutting off the engine. In other words, I work the lever through all positions after turning off the engine. This is especially helpful with the backhoe when hauling on a trailer as it adds another "brake" from movement when I let it down onto the trailer bed. Is this harmful to the hydraulic system? I've done it for over 2 years and it doesn't seem to have damaged the system yet. ....

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earthwrks
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2011-02-14          176872


Whether the engine is on or not has no effect on whether something stays put. It is in my opinion a poorly seated check valve that is the issue. Lowering your hoe like you do has no impact either--I do it all the time for the reason.

That said, only when the engine is running AND the contol valve is actuated and bucket or loader won't stay is purely a control valve internal leaking issue. ....

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greg_g
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2011-02-14          176875


Quote:
Originally Posted by BoonvilleKid | view 176870
Greg,Now, you've got me worrying.
My advice was specific to the Chinese tractor under discussion. It's not a common sump tractor like your 955. All its hydraulic fluid dumps back into one small reservoir under the seat. Pretty sure yours goes back into the common sump that works your tranny/diff/hydraulics.

Plus, your backhoe might have it's own sump - I don't know. It's only dumping back into that little Chinese sump that mandates owners lower hydraulics before shutting off the engine.

//greg// ....

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BoonvilleKid
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2011-02-14          176876


That answers that. And, you're right about the 955 sump. Thanks. ....

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AbbasChild
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2011-02-14          176877


Greg--what "Chinese tractor" were we talking about--may be I missed the reference? ....

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auerbach
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2011-02-18          176907


After shutdown I lower the rear hitch and cycle the FEL controller, assuming I'm depressurizing the system which is good. But maybe it's just superstitious behavior. ....

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greg_g
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2011-02-18          176908


Quote:
Originally Posted by AbbasChild | view 176877
Greg--what "Chinese tractor" were we talking about--may be I missed the reference?
Good chance you didn't miss a thing. I participate in so many of these tractor forums (and actually am a former Chinese tractor owner) that I sometimes put the right answer in the wrong forum. Occasionally the other way around too !!

But the advice constitutes a pretty reasonable rule of thumb:
(a) lower hydraulics before shutting down separate sump tractors
(b) rule (a) is optional for common sump tractors.

//greg// ....

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