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crunch
Join Date: Jan 2007
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2009-08-07          164751


Forgive me for not touching base in a while. I have been working many hours. My daughter is getting married this year and my son joined the army. Anyway, my JD4310 was beginning to have intermittent problems. They are getting more severe and now it is in my back yard, I couldn't get it back to the garage.

It seems to run well, then after warming up it just quits. You can restart and it will quit again, then after a few attempts and a few stalls, it goes ahead and runs fine for the rest of the job. I would assume it is the fuel filter but after it quits, some times it continues to click until the key is turned off.

Any ideas, hints? I haven't done anything yet. Maybe it is dead permanently this time. I will try to start it again tomorrow.

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kwschumm
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2009-08-07          164753


Hi crunch, it's been awhile and it's good to know you're still doing ok.

When it cuts out does it cut out quickly or does it stumble a bit before it dies? It may be as simple as an intermittent seat safety switch. When it cuts out have you looked at the fault indicator on the right fender to see if it's flashing a pattern? ....

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crunch
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2009-08-08          164756


Ken, when it cuts out it is instant. After sitting for a few hours last night I got it up back to the house. No, I haven't looked for any numbers. Thanks for reminding me. The next time this happens I will see if there is any information there. ....

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kwschumm
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2009-08-08          164763


A clean cut-off seems electrical and my guess would be a safety switch. Next time it happens I'd record any flash codes that appear and then try to clean the seat safety switch connections or jumper across the switch. ....

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crunch
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2009-08-16          164972


Ken, it happened again and I saw no flashing codes. This morning it started right up again, I took it in the shade and took the hood panels off. I suspect it is the fuel shutoff relay. It became hot after running the tractor just to move it across the driveway. I think it runs unil the relay heats to some tipping point and then it shuts the fuel off. After it shuts the fuel off it continues to click for a few seconds. When it cools off the tractor starts up again no problem. Am I way off base on this? ....

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kwschumm
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2009-08-16          164982


Crunch, are you talking about the fuel shutoff solenoid under the hood, or the K3 or K6 relays in the fuse panel? K3 is the fuel shutoff pull-in relay and K6 is the fuel shutoff solenoid timer module. ....

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kwschumm
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2009-08-16          164984


The fuel circuit is sort of complicated but it sounds like your hold-in relay may be cutting out.

Here's the high level view of how it works. The fuel shutoff solenoid has two coils in it, a "pull-in" coil and a "hold" coil. Both coils have to be energized to overcome the strong spring inside the solenoid to allow fuel to flow. When the key switch is on, power is supplied to the K3 pull-in relay, K4 engine run relay, and K6 timer relay. Once the plunger has been pulled in the hold coil should be able to keep it open by itself so the K6 timer relay shuts the pull-in coil off after three seconds and K4 should keep the hold coil energized until the key switch is turned off.

If the hold coil fails to hold the solenoid plunger then the engine will cut out. The hold coil will shut off if it loses power, or ground, or is bad.

Power can be lost if the K4 run relay is bad or losing contact, if the ignition switch is flaking out, and a few other circumstances like seat safety switch and pto switch position. If we assume you're sitting in the seat and not running the pto when the engine cuts out then the pto switch can be ignored.

Relays get hot when too much current is passing through them which can be caused by bad connections, worn high resistance contacts, or by the switched device drawing more power than the relay is rated for.

I'd start by unplugging the solenoid and cleaning the connections with contact cleaner, then pulling K3/K4/K6 relays and cleaning those connections too. And the seat safety switch. It wouldn't hurt to jumper that out of the circuit temporarily just to eliminate it.
....

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crunch
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2009-08-16          164990


Hello Ken - I was talking anout the solenoid under the hood. I pulled it off and the plunger did not pull in right away when I turned the key on, it took about 5 seconds and then acted erraticly. But seeing your explanation I'd better check the relays as you suggest before I order a new solenoid. Thanks for the suggestions!! ....

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bloggins
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2009-08-16          164991


Crunch, it could be the fuel filler cap not venting properly. Next time it shuts down, unscrew the filler cap and see if a vacuum is present. If so clean out the vent on the cap. I hope it's as simple as that. ....

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crunch
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2009-08-17          165007


Thanks bloggins - I will check that also. I just priced out the parts - $175 for solenoid, $15 each for K3, K4 relays, $30 for K6 module. So I will check and clean contacts first and your suggestion on fuel cap vent. ....

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crunch
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2009-08-17          165008


Can someone recommend a contact cleaner? I see the prices vary widely. Does this imply a quality difference? ....

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harvey
Join Date: Sep 2000
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2009-08-17          165009


I typically use wd40 for cleaning then an electrical grease on the prongs to reassemble. Don't be afraid to slide the relays in and out a few times befor u resamble.

Do not buy any parts till you have cleaned everything. With the intermitant I would still be looking at a loose or broken wire.

I think Ken covered it very well.

Also keep in mind jdgreen has a fix for the turns over but won't start for about $6. Seems to be working good on mine.

I am assuming yours won't turn over? ....

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crunch
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2009-08-17          165016


Harvey - it turns over and starts but quits after it warms up. I found some CRC electronic cleaner at the local auto supply store. Not to worry - I will not purchase anything until after I clean all connections and try again. ....

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harvey
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2009-08-17          165019


GOTTA ASK! Can't remember if there is a low oil or oil pressure switch. Pretty sure no high temp switch.

....

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crunch
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2009-08-17          165027


Harvey, yes there is a low pressure switch. ....

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kwschumm
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2009-08-17          165029


Crunch, did you get my PM? ....

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crunch
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2009-08-17          165032


No, Ken - didn't get your PM. Hmmmm. Anyway I cleaned every relay, cleaned the filler cap, cleaned the solenoid connection under the hood, cleaned the seat switch, changed the fuel filter, fired her up at 1700 RPMs and let her run. After 1/2 hour she quit again (instantly). I went back out to check it out and the K3 fuel shutoff relay was clicking. Would it be logical to replace the K3 relay ($15) at this point? ....

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kwschumm
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2009-08-17          165035


I don't think that K3 should even be trying to engage under these circumstances but you never know. From the description K3 should only engage during initial start. ....

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crunch
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2009-08-17          165043


Thanks Ken, I was just wondering if K3 was the obvious problem here to folks with experience. I have the tech manual and have been looking at the electrical fuel system test procedures - but thanks for the offer. I just wonder whether I will be able to detect anything with the test procedures given the intermittent nature of the problem. I am impatient but I better slow down. I am not in the middle of any tractor projects right now and am kind of enjoying learning more about the tractor. ....

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kwschumm
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2009-08-17          165046


Having the tech manual is half the battle. Since you're not in a rush it maybe looking at it like a puzzle is the thing to do. Slow and easy and.... fun? Maybe with the right frame of mind. You can always throw money the dealers way.
....

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bloggins
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2009-08-17          165047


Crunch, I had a car that was in perfect mechanical shape that after a bit of running would back-fire and stop. Not a good thing on the highway. I trouble shooted everything but to no avail, then I thought the fuel tank may have something to do with the problem. So I removed it, drained it and put it back in place. I found small beetles and a 1 inch diameter washer in the tank. The problem never happened again...I figure that the washer would settle over the bottom mounted intake tube, stop the flow and once the suction disappeared it would shift off awaiting the next time to block the intake pipe. Who knows could be? What type of beatle likes gasoline? ....

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crunch
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2009-08-27          165330


Well, I bought the cheapest relay ($15) and tried in the K3 position. Engine quit after running for 15 minutes. Then I switched it to the K4 position. Engine quit after 15 minutes. The quest continues... ....

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kwschumm
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2009-08-28          165333


It might be instructive to put a meter on the power to the fuel shutoff solenoid and monitor it during while running until after it shuts itself off. If the voltage doesn't vary then either the shutoff solenoid is bad or the problem is somewhere else. ....

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crunch
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2009-08-28          165334


Yes - that was my thinking also. I will study the tech manual again. I have found two people who have had similar problems (but not exactly the same) and they isolated the problem to timer module which continued to send 12V after 10 seconds to the solenoid. That would explain my solenoid heating up. So its a good theory but will have to wait a couple of days to get out there. Working 80 hours/week right now. One of the two people isolated the problem to the thermister. I will try to find that also in the diagrams. ....

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jdgreen
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2009-08-28          165338


The 4x10 series did not use a thermistor, only the 4x00 series did. The timer relay took it's place. It sounds like a good chance that is your problem. ....

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crunch
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2009-09-02          165406


I am afraid to say anything but it appears the problem is fixed with the purchase of a new timer (K6) module. I have run it for 2 hours with flawless performance. Hooraaaayyyy! ....

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kwschumm
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2009-09-02          165407


Quote:
Originally Posted by crunch | view 165406
I am afraid to say anything but it appears the problem is fixed with the purchase of a new timer (K6) module. I have run it for 2 hours with flawless performance.Hooraaaayyyy!


Hope it holds up. Like you said it makes sense that the extra voltage applied for too long could cause the shutoff solenoid to overheat and act up. This is good information, thanks for keeping us posted. ....

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crunch
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2009-09-03          165408


Ken, the reason the K6 module corrected this is unknown. Apparently - tell me if I am wrong - the way this works is that 12v is continuously supplied to the solenoid. In addition another 12v is supplied for 3 seconds (controlled by the timer module) through the K4 relay to the solenoid. So you get 24v for 3 seconds then it drops to 12v supplied to the solenoid.

In my testing (following the tech manual) I was getting 14.4v continuous to the red wire at the solenoid and 14.4v for 3 seconds at the the K4. The solenoid black wire continuity to tractor frame appeared to be good. And solenoid white wire continuity to the frame for 3 seconds was good. So assuming 14.4V is OK for a 12v system I could find nothing wrong with the K6 module. However I did not test continuously until failure. ....

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kwschumm
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2009-09-05          165471


Crunch, with a single 12V battery it's unlikely that 24V is ever supplied to the shutoff solenoid. Two 12V batteries in series could supply 24 volts but a single battery could not unless there was a boosting circuit (unlikely). 14.4V sounds like alternator output.

Looking at the manual, the fuel shutoff solenoid contains two separate coils, a hold-in coil and a pull-in coil. It also has three wires, one red, one black, one white.

Battery voltage is supplied to the shutoff solenoid on the red wire through the K4 engine run relay any time the ignition switch is on. This is the only positive voltage supplied to the solenoid.

The black wire provides the ground for the hold-in coil. It should always show continuity with ground. This coil is always energized when there is voltage present on the red wire.

The white wire provides the pull-in coil ground. This ground is switched by the K3 relay. The K3 relay is energized for three seconds at engine start by the K6 timer relay. So the pull-in coil is energized by switching ground and not by applying additional voltage.

To further diagnose you'd probably have install the bad K6 relay, run it till it died, and then measure the voltage on the red wire and check the black and white wire for ground continuity during the failure. One guess is that the pull-in coil is getting energized when it should not (white wire switched to ground) causing the shutoff solenoid to overheat. Another guess is that the bad K6 relay is somehow causing the K4 engine run relay to shut off (they are connected).

In short ... I dunno :) ....

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crunch
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2009-09-05          165472


OK - thanks Ken. Obviously I know little about electricity even though my Dad ran a power plant and my BIL builds power plants. The tractor is still running fine so the K6 module was the problem. ....

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