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oldduffo
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 19 Chardon, Ohio 44024
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2009-07-22          164249


Hi fellow "Gatorites",
I just purchased a (very) used 6X4 Gator, with a few problems (many).
First item I am concerned with is the clutch thingy. The clutch on the motor is continuiously engaged, which in turn is running the transaxle clutch making it impossible to shift from neutral to forward or reverse while running. I haven't tried reducing the idle speed, yet, but I think it may be more than that. The Gator is old (no ID plate to be found) so I don't know which service or operators manual to order. I called JD to see if there is such a thing as "one manual fits all", but the fellow I talked to said I need the ID number. I also need the wiring diagram, because the previous owner did some "creative wiring".
I have the engine make and ID, but not the chassis.
Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

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hmrbri
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 7 canada
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2009-07-22          164256


hey duffo,
i as well bought into the 'adopt a broken down gator' club.
i bought two for 50 bucks! very rusty!! every connection corroded,the chassie on one is rusted right through,(it sags right to the groung when you sit in it!) but the other is a bit better. it starts and runs great. the clutch is a bit noisy but it drives fine. i'm having a bit of trouble with it overheating, checking the fan switch and bleading the air out is my next job.

a good read though all the posts will give you a lot of valuable info on your new ride for sure.
and we've got GATORAIDER and his wealth of knowledge.

brian

....

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kthompson
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 5219 South Carolina
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2009-07-22          164258


Gatoraider really seems to know them.

I wonder if JD sold a lot more of the Gators how their tractor sales would be? The only green we have is a Gator and does not make me wish my pumpkins were green at all. ....

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gatoraider
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 540 Maryland
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2009-07-23          164272


Duffo, first many thanks for the kind words from your two previous posters. Sometimes you fix them and they don't bother to tell you, just go on their merry way. Your problem is idle RPM being too fast. You will never get the driven clutch to stop turning, but lowering the idle speed will let you shift the transaxle. I shoot for 1050 RPM,(Deere calls for 1100)but 1050 seems to work well. If you don't have a tach, go to tinytach.com, get their phone number and call them. There is a lady there that is very helpful and can tell you which one to get. As far as your serial number, look on the upper frame rail under the passenger seat. The number should be etched in the frame under a plastic cover. Your number should be WOO6X4XOO????. If it isn't there, you have an old one '93 probably. I think the tech manual you need is TM1516. You probably have an AS-11 motor and they have a completely different carb linkage and governor set up. ....

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oldduffo
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 19 Chardon, Ohio 44024
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2009-07-23          164289


Gatoraider,
I can see why Brian and KT speak highly of you! You gave me more information in 1 paragraph than numerous calls to JD (and the "not technically trained" reps. I've talked to)Makes one wonder who's answering the phone at JD.....whatever. It's raining as I write this, so I'll have to check out the ID thing later...got it under a tarp.
You are "right-on" about the engine. It's a FD620D-AS11, just as you said, and I sort of figured it was of early vintage. As for the RPM, I don't have a tach, but I turned it down so it stalled and the clutch was still engaged. (Plan on rebuilding the carb soon). It(the clutch)probably needs repair or rebuilding. My neigbor, who is pretty engine savy, pointed out that the length of the belt and the proper distance between the two clutches is important, but I think the clutch is just plain bad......plus a few other "goodies"......one being the electronic fuel pump...among others. Question: Are the clutches what was once called "centrifugal" or "variable speed" clutches?
Thank you so much for the help you have given thus far. I hope this is the beginning of many more discussions. ;-)
....

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gatoraider
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 540 Maryland
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2009-07-23          164297


Yes, your clutch is a centrifugal type. If you are idling your motor down until it stalls and the drive clutch is not unloading enough to let the belt rest on the center post between the sheaves,then you have some major drive clutch problems. You need a clutch tool to get it off, and a clutch tool kit to get the clutch apart. Sounds like you have a broken center spring and Iam sure your rollers are flat spotted. If the movable sheave is loose on the center post when you rock it side to side, it's probably not worth fixing. As far as distance between the clutches, that is not adjustable. Also you should have a rod that goes from the transaxle to the motor to hold both in place under acceleration. ....

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oldduffo
Join Date: Jul 2009
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2009-07-24          164332


Thanx Gatoraider,
One (of many to come)question....well. two. 1.) Is the "moveable sheave" you mention also called the "spider"? I have a couple of pages of a repair manual that came with the machine and it has a "blow-up" of parts. It's a three pronged device that seems to be pretty important. 2.)If it is called the "spider", that answers my second question (clutch on or off the engine shaft?) I susspected as much about the distance between the clutches. It seems if there were some way of braking the transaxel (in my case) clutch it would help, but I can understand if the engine clutch is working properly, that's not a factor. I suppose, JD is the only source of a clutch tool kit, right?.....big bucks!!!!! ;-) ....

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gatoraider
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 540 Maryland
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2009-07-24          164334


The spyder is threaded (screwed)onto the post of the stationary sheave. The movable sheave's flyweights ride up the spyder's rollers as RPMs increase. There is a spring that holds the sheaves apart that is probably broken on your clutch. That allows the sheaves to move together and essentially start the shifting process prematurely. The clutch kit has a tapered piece that you put in a vise to hold the clutch so you can take the spyder off. It also has the threaded puller to get it off the crank. A dealer is the only place to get the kit, unless you could talk them into lending ( or renting ) you a kit. ....

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oldduffo
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 19 Chardon, Ohio 44024
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2009-07-24          164337


Hi,...again, hope I don't wear out my welcome.
OK...now I got the difference between a sheave and a spider. I got a dealer about 12 miles from here, so my next step is to "suck up" to them and see if they will rent me a kit. If the clutch is shot, which I fear, will I be able to buy a complete unit without knowing the ID of my machine...like, are the clutches pretty much "standard"?
Since the thing drives fine, once I put it in gear before I start the engine, is it safe to assume that my secondary clutch (transaxle) is working OK? The thing takes off like a jack-rabbit! Sorry to keep buggin' you. My only hope is that you are like me when it comes to helping others. I'm an retired telephone man ( Christian) and I thrive on helping anyone who needs phone work, or any field of expertise God has blessed me with.....NOT Gators.....yet. Thanx again!!!I hope this clutch job will keep me busy and leave you alone until my next problem. ....

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gatoraider
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 540 Maryland
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2009-07-25          164338


Your present clutch is the 15.5 MPH version and if you buy a new one it will be the 18 MPH, so you pick up almost 3 MPH in the deal. All the 6x4 gas clutches will fit and work except for the TH version. You don't have to know your serial number. New clutches are around 300.00 There is a guy on line that sells used parts too. Your secondary clutch could be bound up also. The sleeve inside the 3 cam helix could be seized to,or bound up on,the post on the stationary sheave. Also check the 3 plastic buttons that ride on the helix angles, one or more of them could be missing.Iam also detecting another problem in your post. Your Gator is not supposed to start when it's in gear. I guess your former owner disabled the neutral switch because the clutch didn't work. ....

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oldduffo
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Posts: 19 Chardon, Ohio 44024
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2009-07-26          164368


HI,..you said:
"I guess your former owner disabled the neutral switch because the clutch didn't work."
Yep, that's why it didn't grind when he demonstrated it. I found it taped behind the passenger seat next to the fuel pump. If I ever get a manual I'll know where it mounts....hopefully. I took the muffler and belt off yesterday. I will be calling the local(almost)dealer tomorrow to see if I can pick there brains. I found a drawing of the clutch puller and the arbor to hold it in the vise. The puller looks like a plain old bolt with somekind of sleeve on it. I read somewhere that a 3 point puller is needed....where is that used, or am I imagining stuff? I'm going to the library to see if they have any info on Gators. I know they have ATV manuals. Lest you think I am too cheap to buy one, I'm just afraid, without the model number, I'll buy the wrong one. (Been there, done that)

....

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gatoraider
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 540 Maryland
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2009-07-26          164371


The clutch puller is actually a long bolt that threads into the center of the clutch and bottoms out on the crank. Be sure to grease the end of it before you use it, they work much better. I don't know of any three pronged puller associated with a Gator. Did you look under the passenger seat for your serial number? Sometimes they are hard to see, but are usually there. IT's on the frame rail next to the radiator top. ....

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oldduffo
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 19 Chardon, Ohio 44024
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2009-07-27          164397


Know what? I'm beginning to fear I bought a "hot" Gator. It appears to have been re-painted in spots and there are what appears to be grinder marks under the paint on the frame next to the radiator cap. I believe you said earlier, that the ID was etched into the frame and not on a tag, right? Maybe I should do like they do on TV and get some acid or whatever they use on weapons to raise the ID marks that have been ground off. ;-)...Whatever....I am off to the library and then to the dealer. I don't know where I read about the puller... I am constantly on the web looking up stuff. (one of my PCs crashed last night and I was on the web until 2:30AM trying to get it back up.) Yawn!!!! ....

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kwschumm
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 5764 NW Oregon
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2009-07-27          164398


If you think you have a hot gator you should CYA and report it to the cops or sheriffs office. You do not want to be in possession of stolen property, it's not worth your good name. ....

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gatoraider
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Posts: 540 Maryland
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2009-07-27          164403


If you have grinder marks on the frame next to the top of the radiator, I would say you have a better than 90% chance that you have a hot Gator. If you would happen to find out what the number is and go into a dealer with it to buy parts and he puts it in the data base. If it is hot, the dealer is obligated to turn you in. As soon as Deere matches that number with a stolen Gator ( a matter of minutes )The dealer gets a phone call and he has to persue you. On top of that Deere can confiscate the Gator and you are out your purchase price. Deere takes it very seriously. I believe this is only if it was stolen from a dealership, but I wouldn't want to take the chance. I would listen to KW and make it right, either with the guy you bought it from or the cops or both. ....

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oldduffo
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 19 Chardon, Ohio 44024
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2009-07-27          164435


Gatoraider & KW,
For the sake of clarity, perhaps I should straighten out some stuff. This machine actually belongs to a friend, but to keep it simple, I acted as if it were mine. My friend is not too mechanically inclined so he asked me to work on it. Sorry if I misrepresented myself. However I will pass on your excellent advice. I was with him when he bought the thing and frankly, the guy seemed a little "shady", but he mentioned when he bought the thing, 5 years ago, it was a "basket case". I scraped the paint off the frame and there is nothing there. This brings me to ask, how would I (we)identify it to the dealer? Does Deere keep a list of stolen vehicles and are there other means of identifing a Gator?
I'll talk to my friend and the dealer tomorrow....who by the way, was kind enough to lend me a clutch kit.($119.38)Now that I see it, I don't think I would have much trouble duplicating it. the bolt size is etched on the bolt. Might have a little trouble with the arbor. The clutch is off and as you predicted, Gator, 2 of the rollers had a flat spot. 2 of them rolled easily, the other not so. The spring was not broken but appears worn on ends and very weak....plus it didn't protrude very far out of thewhat-cha-ma-call-it. Since I am just guessing, not having worked on this piece of equipment, ever, I would say that this spring is the major problem...besides the flatspots on the rollers.
My dad had a lawnmower repair shop and taught me a little, plus we built a scale model Curved Dash Olds (Popular Mechanics Magizine plans)for my son, who loved old cars. It was powered by an old lawn mower engine with a centrifugal clutch. I digress, sorry. ....

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gatoraider
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Posts: 540 Maryland
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2009-07-28          164439


Not surprising there is no number left on the frame, they weren't imprinted very deeply in the first place. Deere is supposed to have a web site for stolen Gators, but since you can't ID yours thru the engine serial number or any other way, the site would be of no use to you. Nice of the dealer to lend you a puller. Clutch rollers are not available, you have to buy the whole spyder, around 130.00 I would check the play between the movable sheave and the post on the stationary sheave before I bought a spyder. If there is alot of play there the clutch will rattle like crazy, make you think a rod is coming out of the motor. ....

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oldduffo
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 19 Chardon, Ohio 44024
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2009-07-28          164445


dear, patient gatoraider,
I detect .0015 of play between the moveable and stationary sheaves.(that's the smallest feeler gauge I have and it barely fits between the parts.) Since I am a very "cause and effect" type of person, question: how does the flat spot on the rollers effect the operation of the clutch and does the condition of the spring seem to be the cause of the original problem? With my limited knowledge of centrifugal clutchs, I think I know, but would like your expertese. Also, the sheaves are scored a little and not perfectly smooth. Is this a problem? The reason I am dwelling on this stuff is that 300+ dollars is alot to pay for something that may not be needed. The new spider (and spring) may be all that is needed...hopefully, because there are several other issues with this machine that need attention.
Side bar...can you think of any reason why your posts are being sent 2, sometimes 3 times, at different times. There is alot about this forum I don't understand (What else is new!!)ex: "Use boxes below for Web and Image Links"
Huuuuuh? ....

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oldduffo
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2009-07-28          164447


KT,
Just re-read your original post and it seems you are not happy with your "green". right??? I just thought I'd tell you I bought a used 8HP JD riding mower about 15 years ago. I abuse the heck out of it, but I do change the oil often, and it seems to be un-destructable...knock on wood!!! I don't know what kind of "green" equipment you are running, but I just thought I would let you know my experience with JD...and this Gator, despite it's many problems (do to neglect, basically) will serve my friend just fine. He recently bought 30 acres and that's where he will use it.....a gentleman farmer. ;-) ....

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gatoraider
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Posts: 540 Maryland
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2009-07-28          164448


1 1/2 thousandths ain't much. I never measured that way, I just put them together and push down on the movable sheave and rock it back and forth on the post. If it rocks alot it's gonna rattle. What I was getting from your posts was the clutch was half way engaged or not opening all the way up at idle. That either means the spring isn't strong enough to push the sheaves apart or the sheaves are binding up to the point that the spring can't push them apart. Maybe your spring is broken and the dude that had it before you took the broken piece out and put it back together, and now your spring isn't long enough to push the sheaves apart. When you screw that spyder on the post, you should have enough spring pressure to snap the movable sheave back to wide open. When you put it together, try running the motor without a belt on it and see if it snaps open and shut. Then put the belt on and run the motor up sitting still and see if the clutches work. The driven clutch is supposed to keep the belt tight all the time. If the belt is getting loose anywhere in the RPM range the driven clutch should be looked at. A couple things on the rollers. If they slide and don't roll up the flyweights that robs engine power to make the clutch work right. As the rollers get flat spots in them the flyweights start to seat in the flat spots. As they get worse the sheaves start moving apart and you have to increase RPM to get the Gator to move. When it does move, it jumps into a higher gear right away because of the higher RPM and puts a strain on the rest of the drive train. Sheaves being scored shouldn't hurt it. I don't know why you are getting posts more than once. I'm only sending once. ....

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oldduffo
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Posts: 19 Chardon, Ohio 44024
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2009-07-28          164452


Hi there,

"I never measured that way, I just put them together and push down on the movable sheave and rock it back and forth on the post." I did that, too. I just stuck the gauge in to give you an idea as to how loose it was. "Not much", I felt wouldn't cover it, because "Not much" is not the same for everyone. I didn't think the slight grooves should effect the operation too much...they are little more than scratches. Another thing I don't understand is why the belt is notched and must be 1.1 inches wide. Since the belt rides up the sheaves as the RPM increases, why the notches? It appears the width of the belt is doing all the work. Oh well, never was too bright in Physics 101.
Wonder if there is such a book as "Gators for Dummies". ....

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gatoraider
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Posts: 540 Maryland
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2009-07-28          164453


I think the belt is notched because of the severe angle it has to travel around the drive clutch at take off. Notches give more ability to turn on a sharp angle. They used to be solid, but I guess engineering changed them. ....

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oldduffo
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2009-07-30          164494


Hey gator,
The belt thing makes sense. Decided to go with a new clutch. The fellow at the dealer was very helpful. He did not high pressure us, just told us his experience with rebuilding clutches. So while we wait for the clutch to come in, I started on the next problem.....the starter. I read somewhere on this forum, it might be easier to work on these "reptiles" by pulling the engine. After today, I might echo this comment.....since I had so much "fun?" today removing the starter....standing practally on my head after whacking my dome a few times on the dump deck, trying to see thru all the wires and other stuff in the way. I haven't told you about the starter problem, because I just want to work on one problem at a time.....these is plenty more. The starter spinns fine, it just doesn't engage all the time.....almost like an auto with a few teeth missing from the fly wheel. The previous owner said he replaced the solenoid, and it does look new, I just don't know if he put it together right. A couple of observations; The gear on the starter shaft (bendix) locks engaged only in one direction and I have no idea where the nylon fork that the selenoid operates goes. I have a sneaking idea that the previous owner didn't either.
....stay tuned, please.
The price of the TM floored me (170 something)and the CD at $76.00 is a bit steep also since I don't plan on making a living repairing these things.....I'll "pick your brain"....and just send you the $76.00....if you're willing to help me thru this mess I got myself into.
Or if you like, I'll send you my e-mail address and stop boring all these other folks with my rambling and digressing, who read this forum...and just bore you with my rambling and digressing. ;-) Hopefully, someone else is benefiting from all the help you are giving me...which reminds me, I'd better send in my 19.00 to Tractorpoint.
God Bless!!!! ....

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gatoraider
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 540 Maryland
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2009-07-30          164496


Duffo, Here's what you do. Remove the valve cores from the two rear tires on your Gator. unhook either the prop rod or the top end of the dump unit, which ever applies to you and stand the bed up and let it go over center and rest against the frame and wallah!!!! no more headaches. I don't know why I tell you guys this stuff. Your starter drive is bad. Starter drives are around 90.00 and you need a stop too, don't forget that. You will ruin yours getting it off. ....

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oldduffo
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2009-07-30          164497


Duuh, What's a "Stop"? Believe it or not, I did what you said about the bed!!!! I'm just a klutz...been know to bump my (bald) head on any and every thing! In fact, when I was working, it was a daily ritual that every one would check my head for new scars. Did you ever see that e-mail picture of the back of a bald guys head with a lawn mower tattoo on it? That was posted at my place of work with my name on it....and it resembled me, even.
(I have all 4 wheels off so I can get at the engine and stuff) ....

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oldduffo
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2009-07-30          164498


I got you last post twice.....one at 9:20 and one at 10....something. Something else must need a "stop", or whatever. ;-) ....

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oldduffo
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2009-08-01          164558


Yo gator,
Sorry for bugging you on this beautiful week-end, but I gotta ask you something....else. I took off one of the chains to clean and oil it and have to ask you just what the heck is the size of the carriage bolt nuts holding the axle holding housing? It ain't 3/4 or 19MM. I drove a 11/16 impact socket on the nuts with a hammer to lossen them, but that seems a little extreem, as is the 70 ft/lbs torque. It's a good thing I had a 3 ft. pipe to put on my torque wrench.;-)Enjoy your Sunday. PS I was surprised how easy it was to mount 2 new tires...thought it would be alot tougher. ....

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oldduffo
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2009-08-01          164560


Dear gatoraider,
When you mentioned the neutral switch being removed, I forgot to ask you where it should be mounted. Could you please tell me where it should be mounted? Presently it is just hanging there...loose with a bracket and 2 screws. I can't find anywhere it should be fastened. ....

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gatoraider
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2009-08-02          164561


18MM on the nuts for the hubs. The neutral switch is screwed into the top of the transaxle. When you put it in neutral a button on the linkage inside the transaxle hits the plunger on the switch and closes it. This creates a path for ground to the start relay so when the ign. switch goes to start the start relay pulls. The switch you think is the neutral switch is either the switch that lights the light for the emergency brake indicator, or the Gator used to have a back-up alarm on it, and it's a switch for that. ....

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Posts: 19 Chardon, Ohio 44024
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2009-08-03          164599


g,
OK...don't have an 18MM (Harbor Frieght set)The other side took a 12 MM socket. The carriage bolts must have been replaced. I thought the neutral switch might be the one you mentioned. Will see if I can find where the "dangling" switch could have been mounted on/near the emergency brake lever. Todays "progress"...X-threaded the bottom bolt on the started and broke it off, but luckily I got it out since I had about 3/4" to work with. Priced a stud puller at NAPA....42 bucks!!!The wiring has been "butchered". That will surely be lots more fun. My next quest will be to see if I can find some kind of wiring diagram. Hopefully not knowing the model will not be a problem.
Sorry if I am boring you with my progress, but this is someting completely different than anything I have worked on and very interesting. ....

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clutch motor

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oldduffo
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 19 Chardon, Ohio 44024
TractorPoint Premium Member -- 5 Tractors = Very Frequent Poster

2009-08-03          164600


There must be something wrong at Tractor Point.com. I got 5 notifications of your last 2 responses...on different days for the last one. If I knew how, I would notify them. ....

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clutch motor

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gatoraider
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 540 Maryland
TractorPoint Premium Member -- 5 Tractors = Very Frequent Poster

2009-08-03          164602


If you have an AS-11 motor your chassis number can be no newer than W006X4X014949 so if you give them a number with the last five under 14949 your parts should be right. A wiring diagram for a 6x4 should be all the same. ....

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clutch motor

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oldduffo
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 19 Chardon, Ohio 44024
TractorPoint Premium Member -- 5 Tractors = Very Frequent Poster

2009-08-04          164637


Thanx again gator,
Since I started my posts under "clutchs", I wonder if I am required to start a new thread under "starters", because that's what I am stuck on now. Oh well, here goes just the same. The starter functions great on the bench, however, the 9 tooth bendix does not engage the flywheel when mounted. Since I have no idea what the end of the gear (9 tooth) should look like, I have to assume there in lies the problem. As far as I can tell the flywheel is OK. It is almost like the starter motor/solenoid is sending the gear forward OK, but the gears will not mesh....most times...eventually they will...other times the motor just spins. I can duplicate this on the bench by blocking the gear from full motion forward..(with an open end wrench over the shaft.) ....

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