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Electric Compact Equipment

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DavidLevin
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 8
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2009-04-05          161727


Does anyone know of electric skids or other compact equipment? If so, do you have any ideas where they may be used, Mines? Tunnels? Other indoor environment? Have you encountered night work in city centers where there are noise/pollution restrictions that would require use of electric vehicles?

The thinking is that with the new Obama administration stress on Green, there may be some potential there...

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candoarms
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 1932 North Dakota
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2009-04-05          161729


DavidLevin,

I fear that the gummitup may be on a course to destroy our nation.

The push for electric vehicles has me laughing....a lot......and scratching my head even more.

For the life of me, I can't figure out how the gummitup figures to supply the billions of extra kilowatts of electricity we'll need to charge our vehicles while at work, and again at night after arriving home from our evening commutes.

The nation's electrical grid simply won't handle the extreme increase in electrical power that will be required to replace the power we currently get from gasoline.

And what are we going to have to burn in order to make all of this additional electricity? Coal.....right? But I thought the entire GREEN program was designed to ween us from these filthy fossil-fuels.

Me thinks we're spending a whole lot of money just to go in circles.

Joel ....

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auerbach
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 2168 West of Toronto
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2009-04-05          161730


David, for decades there've been forklifts powered by batteries or propane. I bought a small tractor powered by six golf-cart batteries in 1972, and it's worked hard for me since with just new batteries every 5-7 yrs. Similar units work in barns and greenhouses. I've heard of battery compact tractors but haven't seen one. Other heavy battery-run industrial equipment is rare, but I'm sure will increase as battery technology improves over lead-acid. There are sites devoted to this topic. ....

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DavidLevin
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 8
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2009-04-05          161731


Joel, a couple of points:

1. The "green" footprint of the energy (assuming coal) required to charge your batteries would be less than that of combustion engines.
2. The idea is that Coal will not be the only way to power up the grids.

Either way, can't stop the investment train in Green. Question is, where/when/how will it fit with tractors? ....

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Electric Compact Equipment

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earthwrks
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 3853 Home Office in Flat Rock, Michigan
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2009-04-05          161733


DavidLevin, our Israeli friend, I have been following your many posts on the web about this and the easy-on/off tracks for loaders on other sites.

To the others here that don't know about Mr. Levin he purports to represent a major manufacturer in Israel--but won't give any details as to his involvement. (Me thinks this a teenager dreaming up ideas--IMHO, of course)

While there is some entertainment value you bring to the table, I'm highly suspicous of a. your credentials and b. your approach which at best is amaturish. Think about it: The brain-trust at your "corporation" must be empty; no self-respecting corporation would be asking the questions you ask--even in light of the boundless resources of the internet. (BTW, elctric equipment has been around in Europe for decades---BUT it's NOT rechargeable AND needs a power cord) And by that I mean you could easily google any search word and found a result.

Be that as it may, you will continue to ask inane questions and won't stop until someone tells you the answer you seek.

So here it is: Yes the world needs electric compact equipment. Knock yourself out. ....

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candoarms
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 1932 North Dakota
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2009-04-05          161734


If my "cordless tractor" is anything like my cordless drill, I'll use the front end loader to dig a big hole.......until the batteries go dead......then I'll use a hand shovel to bury it.

Joel ....

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earthwrks
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 3853 Home Office in Flat Rock, Michigan
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2009-04-05          161740


Amen! ....

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Electric Compact Equipment

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shoo4639
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 4 israel
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2009-04-05          161742


Hello, my name is Avishay and I am a colleague of Mr. Levin. One thing I am sure about is that he is no teenager! (sadly for himů)
I have founded the company some 10 years ago- www.galileo-mobility.com - and we are trying to find different application for the track wheel mechanism we have developed.
So far we have built a prototype for a climbing stairs wheelchair and a portable Military robot known as 'VIPER' (currently been field tested by Israeli Army)
Recently we have been asked whether we can fit our mechanism to a large tractor, so what we are trying to find out with your help is, where if at all lay the benefits of our technology in your world.
The reason we are asking about electrical tractors is due to the fact that one of the major qualities of our mechanism is energy efficiency since we only operates on wheels when needed and stay on wheels as long as it is possible. And as you know tracks tend to draw more energy than wheels.
That fact comes to be more important when your energy source is batteries as oppose to fuel.
As we are not familiar so much with tractor world we can only imagine where electric tractor might be in use, but those are only guesses.
We thought of places where diesel fumes cant be tolerated, in closed places such as tunnels, mines, etc. we can guess that there might be a need for an electric tractor when job need to be done in an urban environment, and that work need to be done at night time to avoid traffic, but loud noise can be a problem too.
Again these are only our guess and we would like to here your opinion about how far or close from reality they are.
Sorry for my unpolished English and we will appreciate your cooperation.
Avishay.
....

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auerbach
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 2168 West of Toronto
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2009-04-05          161746


Shalom, Avishay, thank you and I'll try to help.

I saw a video on your wheel-track mechanism, and can now respond better to David Levin's original question. You use a clever and unique flexible wheel-cover that can be automatically expanded to include a pair of bogey wheels, increasing the ground contact and therefore the traction, and allow it to climb stairs. That works on small, light applications like wheelchairs and robots, but I do not see any flexible material having the strength needed for agricultural or construction equipment.

As for batteries, yes they can provide plenty of clean, quiet power (think of World-War II submarines) but they are so heavy (the 24V ones used in many forklifts must be installed/removed by machinery) that the first step has to be more power-dense batteries. And that problem (for the desperate car industry) always seems to be next year's solution. But there are companies selling small tractors like mine, as well as low-speed "city cars," powered by lead-acid batteries.

NEW: on Reuters UK, see the clip called "China's Walking Chair." It's an equally elegant but mechanically different approach to a stair-climbing chair. ....

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hardwood
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 3583 iowa
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2009-04-05          161748


Seems like someone here on TP talked about an electric tractor he was recharging with a solar panel. I don't remember much more about it. ....

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shoo4639
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 4 israel
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2009-04-05          161749


Auerbach
Thanks for your comment.
As for implementation our system to heavy tractors indeed it is a challenging task and although to my self I strongly believe it is doable I fully understand that it yet has to be proven.
But for one min lets assume we have overcome the mechanical problem, the question still remain who needs it.
All electric propulsion suffers from the very same problem which is the low density of energy in batteries and of high cost.
Today due to the environmental pressure the decision has been mead to move forward with electrical propulsion even thaw its always seems to be tomorrows technology.
It doesn't necessarily have to be consisting on heavy led acid batteries; it can be hybrid with lion like in some cars, or with hydrogen fuel cells. In any case it is obvious that should such solution will be in use energy conservation issue will be more critical.
From what I a picking here I assume that it's simply does not exist yet outside the laboratories of the big companies.
In any case thanks for hosting us here, and for your comments.
Avishay

....

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earthwrks
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 3853 Home Office in Flat Rock, Michigan
TractorPoint Premium Member -- 5 Tractors = Very Frequent Poster  View my Photos  Pics

2009-04-05          161751


Avishay, I have a skid loader. It weighs about 8,000 lb. Its fuel consumption is rated in gallons-per-hour which is 2.9. It's rated at 78 hp.

Unlike a transportation vehicle which is rated for getting from point A to B and using that energy efficiently because of speed, machinery cannot do that. Somehwere I read a typical vehicle only needs 4 HP at each wheel to propell it at 45 MPH.

LOL, I come from a long line of prolific inventors. I remember when I was 12 or 13 I "invented" a proplusion system based on compressed air and a steam-type turbine. (Little did I know that a turbine was not like a fan) I was so proud of it. I showed the plans to an engineer-type whose first observation was: "Where does it get its compressed air?"

(I had air tanks to hold compressed air). In "my world" the turbine would power an air compressor to refill the compressed air tanks. He says "Then you have invented the first perpetual motion machine. And those don't exist".

Oh.

"Air tanks, not good enough", he said. "You'll need a big compressor mounted on a trailer to power it. And if you're gonna do that, you might as well just power the car with the engine from the compressor".

So, Avishay, this is how I see electric equipment: you'll need a big generator to constantly recharge the batteries. And if you have to do that, you might as well...

And you said thjat tracks use more power than wheels--I'm not sure about that. There are many factors that go into that pro and con. Yes it takes more power to turn a tracked vehicle that has tracks longer than the tracked width. No, it doesn't take more power to traverse sand where you have floatation. And it depends on the profile of the track too: New Holland and Komatsu excavators have what are called pavement tracks taht have curved-up side lips that make turning easier and less damaging to not only pavement but earth too. ....

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shoo4639
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 4 israel
TractorPoint Premium Member -- 5 Tractors = Very Frequent Poster

2009-04-06          161760


Auerbach
Thanks for your comment.
As for implementation our system to heavy tractors indeed it is a challenging task and although to my self I strongly believe it is doable I fully understand that it yet has to be proven.
But for one min lets assume we have overcome the mechanical problem, the question still remain who needs it.
All electric propulsion suffers from the very same problem which is the low density of energy in batteries and of high cost.
Today due to the environmental pressure the decision has been mead to move forward with electrical propulsion even thaw its always seems to be tomorrows technology.
It doesn't necessarily have to be consisting on heavy led acid batteries; it can be hybrid with lion like in some cars, or with hydrogen fuel cells. In any case it is obvious that should such solution will be in use energy conservation issue will be more critical.
From what I a picking here I assume that it's simply does not exist yet outside the laboratories of the big companies.
In any case thanks for hosting us here, and for your comments.
Avishay
....

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Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999
Posts: 7142 Toronto Area, Ontario, Canada
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2009-04-06          161762


A tractor, by the very nature of it, is designed, and primarily used for, heavy draft work, that is, pulling heavy loads.

From this point of view a tractor has a lot in common with an airplane.

For this it needs to be very efficient at converting the energy into mechanical power, and with the least amount of weight necessary to do the job.

Unfortunately, tractors, just like airplanes, are VERY difficult to convert to electric power. With today's battery technology there just isn't a battery capable of producing enough power, for a long enough period, that weighs the same or less than a comparable internal combustion engine.

When you add tracks to the tractor, even only part-time like yours, it just makes it that much more difficult.

Every pound you add means that much more parasitic losses.

Best of luck.
....

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